The importance of randomness / different timings

[syzygy]

Has anyone else noticed that visuals wit h random element or at least with lots of differenent things going on in them can give the illusion that they are matched to the beat much better than visuals that follow a regular rhythm?

In our experiments, we found that loops where things happen irregularly seem to give people the impression that they are matched to the beat even if they are not. Loops where things happen every regularly need to be more carefully matched to the beats of the music in order for them to look great.

For example, if you make a loop where coloured circles flash up onto the screen irregularly and play it alongside some music, the circles often seem to match with beats. If you make the timing of the circles more regular, it seems more obvious that the visuals and the music are not in synch.

My theory is based on the fact that the human brain is adept at spotting correspondances between things. Things that match are much more noticeable than things that don't match. To go back to the circles example i sued earlier, I think our brains notice the circles that coincide with beats much more than the ones that don't.

I think making the visuals regular breaks the illusion because the brain then has a regular pattern to follow in the visuals as well as in the music and it can tell immediately that they are out of synch.

Has anyone else played around with this?

SyZyGy

[ristuuk]

its the old scenario of turning the sound down on the tv and putting the record player on.

[rhythmicimaging]

I find image bursts work well especially as i usually perform over hardcore/hardhouse sets. as all the image bursts still include frames of movement it gives the illusion (probably because its too fast for the brain too work out whats going on) that it matches the tunes beats as they are so fast or hard.

Thats also when i use programs like midivid i attach single bitmaps to individual keys so you can show them in time to the beats. As long as you are near the sound system and dont have a wall between you and the main room as i did, as this gives you the problem of a slight delay and your images not appearing to be beat matched.

[Rovastar]

*sigh* what a backwards attitude to visuals. Surely playing random stuff does not help the visuals/VJing cause.

The best way is to learn/use the beat/sound movement in more intellegent ways to trick the viewer more into intellegent music reactions (automatic or otherwise)

Sorry folks but I do beleive that viewpoints like 'it is alright to play anything as long as it is quick enough as every so often something goes in time' is negative and defeatist. How are you going to advance with this attitude.

[rhythmicimaging]

why not use simple techniques?

randomness can equal uniqueness

variety is the spice of life

[elbows]

Rovastar Im not quite sure that was the point, rather that peeps were just looking at the way the human mind works with these things, well I found it interesting anyway. I dont think it was meant to mean "hey lets just sit back and project anything with no thought or sync"

Made me think of Cornelius because his videos to last album seemed like every single part of the image was very tightly synced, but maybe it was just illusion - I'll have to buy his DVD and analyse it

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Rovastar
*sigh* what a backwards attitude to visuals. Surely playing random stuff does not help the visuals/VJing cause.

I didn't start this thread to claim that we can get away with sticking some randomly timed visuals on and leave them to it. If I gave that impression then I didn't express myself clearly enough.

When we perform, we put a lot of effort in. There are two of us triggering loops using Midivid and a midi keyboard and adding effects using VCDs, an MX1 and a WJ-AVE5 in combination. Anyone that see's us in full flow would agree that we certainly don't take a lazy approach to visuals.

I posted this thread to discuss an effect that I find interesting - the fact that loops with lots going on or with random timing intervals give an illusion of synching to music more than clip with less going on or very regular timing intervals.

I wasn't suggesting that this is a replacement for tapping out rythms with a midi keyboard or even using sound reactive technology to synch stuff to music - just that there is an interesting effect there that can be harnessed IN ADDITION to whatever other techniques are being used.

Have I expressed it better this time?

SyZyGy

[brain]

hi syzygy,

yes i think you`re right concerning the observation. one should know the mechanics of perception to cleverly use them. even i'm sometimes pleased and amazed what coincidences may happen

but i've seen people rely too much on what you've described - which may become boring or annoying very soon. even stoned clubbers might figure out the "random flicker technique" after a while

people relying heaviliy on this mostly run into problems when speed or atmosphere in a track changes or when there's a dj change. suddenly what seemed so cool looks cheap or not adequate (=bad).

and there's one more point: too much short, cut loops tend to stress the viewer (at least me ), so he doesn't look any longer. sometimes i start to feel like these poor animals in a zoo that turn crazy/agessive because of dumb repetition of sight and movement over and over. maybe to much loops even add to the retarding effect of some drugs used

but anyway, as i said you're right. i was just addin some thougts...

brain

[eXhale]

I think it makes sense that randomness (=chaos) is able to best match the music in the punter's head, our brain always tend to create patterns and it's much easier to create patterns in synch with the music out of a chaotic structure (that's my guess anyway). It could mean we're useless but luckily there is more to VJing than beat-matching

[syzygy]

I'd agree with what brain says. Overusing this effect is definitely a bad idea. Leaving the same loop running through a change in the music would definitely be a no-no for us (the promotors are paying us to do the visuals in keeping with the music, after all )

What I'm talking about is much shorter periods of time, maybe 16, 4 or even just one bar of music. It seems that the human brain can pick out correspondences between music and visuals even in this short time.

Something else I've just thought of, the nights we work at are Drum and bass, Hip-hop, asian-beats, funky breaks, more drum and bass, and a mixture of all of the above. Perhaps the effect I am talking about is most suited to breakbeat music...

SyZyGy