Collaborative mixing? Or, throwing all the paint at the canvas?

[Amukidi]

?Rant -- nothing irks me more than someone 'mixing' their <insert derogatory style slang here> over a mix I?ve carefully considered and composited. Call me prima donna, but it just doesn't look good and I?ve seen it too many times. Even at laptop-jams, the visual collaboration never comes together in the same way that the audio side does, but that discussion isn't for here.?


This comment by Spark in the Video Mixing Championship (VMC) thread prompted me to start this one. I?m sure we?ve all had plenty of times when we are ?jamming? with other VJs, sometimes more than one with (usually) one person on the output mixer. Every now and then, this can produce astounding results, but usually, in my experience, it results in total overkill on the screens. As an artist fascinated (some would say obsessed) by composition, this is not a satisfactory situation, as a lot of my time is spent on really careful juxtaposition, both live and in the NLE. Now, I know that a lot of this is more salient to the way we work, but I do feel that it raises a few issues that I would love to hear your comments on. There are a handful of VJs that I?m at home with in this respect, Adam (the ombudsman) Seaman and Genic are two that spring to mind, but If I was asked by an unknown (to me, that is) if I?d be interested in mashing it up, I?d approach it with real reservations. I?ve heard some VJs state that ?this is what it?s all about? and others who are not convinced. Where do you stand? Where?s the dynamic in 3 folk?s videos all squirted on the same screen? Imagine watching a film that had every square metre of the screen filled with action for the whole duration of the film? My wife and best critic uses a great phrase when I?ve gone over the top, which I think suits this issue perfectly: ?Throwing all the paint on the canvas.?

[DrEskaton]

Originally posted by Amukidi
?Rant -- nothing irks me more than someone 'mixing' their <insert derogatory style slang here> over a mix I?ve carefully considered and composited. Call me prima donna, but it just doesn't look good and I?ve seen it too many times. Even at laptop-jams, the visual collaboration never comes together in the same way that the audio side does, but that discussion isn't for here.?
Imagine watching a film that had every square metre of the screen filled with action for the whole duration of the film? My wife and best critic uses a great phrase when I?ve gone over the top, which I think suits this issue perfectly: ?Throwing all the paint on the canvas.?

I agree. I think VJ'ing is at this really early stage of development where people think anything goes, but often it just gets too messy.

Can you imagine any known DJ's letting another DJ they don't know mix arbitary tracks over the top of theirs? Dj's who mix back to back at the very least talk about their sets before hand to make sure they are complementing each other.

recursive mixing, endlessly taping your own mix and putting let more layers ontop of it with an MX12 looks sloppy and just a lazy way to make content. The sooner that whole aesthetic dies in VJ'ing and gets replaced by actual compositional skills the better as far I'm concerned and I reckon the better for acually developing VJ;ing as an appreciated talent rather than lieing somewhere below the lighting guy in the pecking order.

flame away

[Lara]

Yes I do have to agree with all the comments here..... but at a casual gig, and don't flame me here, its great to have a mix with friends.... you very quickly see what works and what doesn't. The problem is perhaps not mixing together, but of mixing with those with a lack of visual sensitivity- who think its okay to mix 20 layers and a chromakey. Nobody I've ever mixed with I'm happy to say

[littlecatalyst]

i see a lot of people crapping on tag teaming, and find it funny.... its just liek anything else... it could be like what you describe amukidi, all the paint being thrown up, but then again noone could tell me that i wasnt looking at an angery fruit salad during the mass jam... as opposed to our favorite position of being ensconced by our ivory tower and technoogy, tag teaming (like doing some mass jamy thing) required an extra level of c-o-m-m-u-n-i-c-a-t-i-o-n.

sure i can understand what a drag it would be to have my stuff that i like seeing one particular way--- ((actually thats bull, whatever i have especially my own DIY stuff i want to push as far as i can..... see what happens next)) get cheapened by some kid who is just blowing uninspired crap onto my images.... but i dont see that happen too often. mostly the tagteaming that i have gotten into have been full of positive back-and-forths and lots of additive exponential excitement, meaning that what i put on to compliment what the other VJ had on got us both excited that the other VJ then said "well that makes me think of this image i have" i have seen two of us fly in harmony very well (one using narrative imagery while the other is doing patterns, then saying he yi want todo abstract now...) and we would be getting into a symbiotic groove

symbiotic, like synergy, you know, when the interactions are greater than the sum pf the pieces... that happens when you let that human part back in, and tagging with someone is a great way to do that cause you have 2 choices, you can be an upset artist all grumbling to yourself in your head about how you dont liek whats happening, or you can open your mouth and find out how easy communicating can be....

amukidi i remember how you said before playing at the massjam that you werre going to use a lot of flash shapes because edveryone else (at that moment) was going with the slick CGdelica... thats the kind of communications i have going throughout a tag team! that kind of thinking and workingit out together.... (oh except for the ocasional "Omigod that looks so cool!" from one tag teamer to the other, which is also nice....)

ive had crap experiences as well but usually those were unplanned tagteams (go to the batheroom leave vids on autopilot, return and someone is on the boards, the vj who opened the night-- so im always going to be willing to see what we can to together, but after 5 seconds (and finding out later that they are now tripping hard) they couldnt handle the "Harshness" of my style (?) and they like their images their own way, to which i say "ok, i understand but it is my set, get the @#%$*& off my board"). ok other lame experiences are when theres too much crap from teh other VJ (ie big boobs dancing.... starwars.... you knwo the drill) and you just dont want to be associated with that stuff, but theres ways around that as well....

all in all i gotta say that its been great and i support doing more of these as well.... who know amukidi, in SF maybe at the very least we can have a late night tagteam and you tell me what you think

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by DrEskaton
Can you imagine any known DJ's letting another DJ they don't know mix arbitary tracks over the top of theirs? Dj's who mix back to back at the very least talk about their sets before hand to make sure they are complementing each other.

first of all lets cut the silly part out right away.... djs in clubs "at the very least"discuss their sets? please. the big name flew-in-for-the-night dj is going to play what he played last night and the night before that (a la tiesto) hes not going up to the dj opening teh nigt to say what he is going to play. the midle dj (if there is a middle one before the big name) is going to be listening to whats going on while hes setting up and in general the vibe before they get on but thats about it... and whoever goes on after the big name is done, doubtful that they woudl really be getting the lowdown from the djs, they have to use tehir ears.

now to the surreal, Dr E. where do you think the tem tagteaming comes from? from turntablists. i havce personally seen the picklz tag team with kid koala (our hometown teddybear) and now they do it all teh time but they didnt knwo each other.... been to hundreds of underground table parties where loads of kids will try it out too. so on either level, yes thet does in fact happen.....


AND TO DISPELL ONE MORE MYTH, dudes you can have too many layers with resolume and a lappy.... you cant blame that on tagteaming... you can tag team in a hghly minimal way.. and you can do other fun things like highlight yoru skills (maybe youre and aftereffects genius but not so hot on a mixer-- maybe youre the opposite) and be a part of soemething that s just a little biggerthan yourself... try it. i guarantee if you actually communicate while doing it you will be pleasantly surprised....

[Amukidi]

"AND TO DISPELL ONE MORE MYTH, dudes you can have too many layers with resolume and a lappy.... "

Absolutely, seen it loads of times - and I agree with Lara too, I've had some great moments mixing with friends - the bottom line being that we understand each other and are sensitive to each other's work. In some respects, if collaboration is the order of the day, maybe it makes sense for a third VJ to have controll of the mixer?

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by Amukidi
"AND TO DISPELL ONE MORE MYTH, dudes you can have too many layers with resolume and a lappy.... "

Absolutely, seen it loads of times - and I agree with Lara too, I've had some great moments mixing with friends - the bottom line being that we understand each other and are sensitive to each other's work. In some respects, if collaboration is the order of the day, maybe it makes sense for a third VJ to have controll of the mixer?

absolutly...When Inside Dave came to Colorado, we did a Space Bunker Session where my Mate Doug(VJ Archetype) mixed both live cam, Daves, and my video signals together, and without even seeing each other's work, creatted a masterpiece..It was complete sychronicity...
when Dave would have some 'street footage' I was at the same time putting in my own street footage..and visa versa...
That said, I wouldn't go beyond the 3 VJ setup of live mix..
the problem being that it just almost always tends to become a soup..

I think VJ's that don't want to mix with other ppl just have a problem with not not getting enuf attention for themselves,(and ego) and hate to share the spotlight...
WE can all make a mix a set by ourselves, tape it, show what we got, but to be able to do a great mix with 1-2 otyher ppl requires a great deal of communication, and compositing talent...
it does work, and it can be quite interesting as well..

[robotfunk]

Soup is the key word here.
Moderation is whats needed to prevent soup.
Soup is the result of thinking 'IF mixing is a good thing, more mixing is better'

I still think it can be done with people who share the same idea of how it should be done, but that it gets progressively harder the more people get involved. When teaming up it may be easier to get good results if you work serially (tag team) than in parallel.

The best dj set I ever heard was when Derrick May first came over to Holland. Eddy de Clerq I believe invited him, and on this party Eddy, Derrick and Dimitri were booked to do their sets but instead of doing a 1.5 hour set each, they went '2 on 2' meaning each would play 2 tunes and then the next guy ... why 2 tunes?
1 to react to the last tune the other played, the next to choose a new direction. It was sheer magic, probably mainly because the 3 djs respected each other and were trying to impress each other.

Perhaps this method could be interesting for VJ collaborations as well.

[Lucidhouse]

I think we can all choose the way we show our work, without accusations of being selfish egocentric premadonnas. I?ve done the bohemian free for all arty farty bit a while ago and it was fine while it lasted.
I now chose to show my work in its entirety the way I see fit, and yes I do collaborate with musicians and other artists, but it doesn?t have to be a free mix-up session, I just don?t think that format suits my aesthetics.This might sound like blasphemy to some of you, but I like to be in control of what I produce.
And talking about egos, I?ve seen guys guard that mixer with their lives, not really wanting to share who controls it?stuff it, I?m not fighting over a piece of hardware, I?ll show my work instead?

[DrEskaton]

Originally posted by littlecatalyst
first of all lets cut the silly part out right away.... djs in clubs "at the very least"discuss their sets? please. the big name flew-in-for-the-night dj is going to play what he played last night and the night before that (a la tiesto) hes not going up to the dj opening teh nigt to say what he is going to play.

ok I think my point was misunderstood. DJ?ng has progressed to the point where there is a craft to mixing, there are rules and ways of creatively breaking the rules when beatmixing so people can mix and have it work.

VJ mixing seems often to be at the stage as if a hiphop DJ was playing and a happy hardcore DJ just walked and started playing his own stuff over the top and not even bother to match tempo and beatmix.

DJś that play back to back sets (alternating at the decks, not just playing after each other) usually are friends and know each others work to bounce off each other so yeah they do discuss it, at least in the trance scene that I?ve seen.