Ideas to boost the profile of VJing

[evomedia]

Working with other people produces better results than you can manage on your own.

Collectives can provide opportunities for new people to get involved and by doing so everyone involved in a big project gets the chance to improve their skills and pass some of them on to the other people working in the collective.

Isn't this forum a giant collective of Vj's, hence the question how can we improve the VJ scene. AVIT used to bring people here together so rather than winge can we do anything practical, lots of people doing little things can achieve alot.

Do we need a group project, something to raise the VJ profile?

I'd like to see what getting people involved achieves over arguments

[sleepytom]

Its a case of perception...

maybe if you worked more closely with some other disciplines in the music industry you wouldn't feel like VJs are getting a massively unfair deal.

My flatmate runs a staging company, and is constantly moaning about jobs where people don't pay on time, jobs where on site people expect you to provide extra kit for nothing, jobs where they want a full deign and risk assessment which then get given to a competitor to undercut based on his quote, jobs where people expect him to work for nothing..

Little clubs and underground events don't pay well. They don't pay anybody well, the promoters do not make a killing and they are not stealing the food out of VJs mouths.

Little events have little budgets, so don't go doing a load of custom production work for them as they will never be able to pay you for this work, if VJs do custom logos and event branding without charging for it then events start to expect to get that included in the VJ fee. Even if you don't want to be a "production company" then at least learn some lessons from these bigger organisations. Charge for the work you do. If the budget isn't big enough to pay for all the stuff you want to provide then cut back on what you give them. Tailor your services so that the promoters can choose from a low, middle and top end production. If they see that you offer a £3000 package, then they will not ask you to do the show for nothing, but will be pleased when you provide a basic service for £500.

You can't raise the profile of VJs persay. (god knows we have been trying to do this for years, have spent tens of thousands of pounds on it, had good press coverage, arts council funding, international press coverage, TV shows about VJing, Courses from NVQ upto PHDs focusing on visuals performance) VJs are more visible and more in demand now than they ever have been before. But if everytime there is a success story you shout "there not a VJ though" then what is the point?

[sleepytom]

Its a case of perception...

maybe if you worked more closely with some other disciplines in the music industry you wouldn't feel like VJs are getting a massively unfair deal.

My flatmate runs a staging company, and is constantly moaning about jobs where people don't pay on time, jobs where on site people expect you to provide extra kit for nothing, jobs where they want a full deign and risk assessment which then get given to a competitor to undercut based on his quote, jobs where people expect him to work for nothing..

Little clubs and underground events don't pay well. They don't pay anybody well, the promoters do not make a killing and they are not stealing the food out of VJs mouths.

Little events have little budgets, so don't go doing a load of custom production work for them as they will never be able to pay you for this work, if VJs do custom logos and event branding without charging for it then events start to expect to get that included in the VJ fee. Even if you don't want to be a "production company" then at least learn some lessons from these bigger organisations. Charge for the work you do. If the budget isn't big enough to pay for all the stuff you want to provide then cut back on what you give them. Tailor your services so that the promoters can choose from a low, middle and top end production. If they see that you offer a £3000 package, then they will not ask you to do the show for nothing, but will be pleased when you provide a basic service for £500.

You can't raise the profile of VJs persay. (god knows we have been trying to do this for years, have spent tens of thousands of pounds on it, had good press coverage, arts council funding, international press coverage, TV shows about VJing, Courses from NVQ upto PHDs focusing on visuals performance) VJs are more visible and more in demand now than they ever have been before. But if everytime there is a success story you shout "there not a VJ though" then what is the point?

[SteveG]

I have said before Tom, never assume. I was drummer in several covers bands for around 5-6 years....purely as a hobby and like VJ'ing was self taught. I played in 2 Bands up here in the North and one based in Oxfordshire. Oh! a band that normally got paid too I've organised events, parties and official functions for years Tom so have a better than average overall knowledge and have not only booked and been responsible for the entertainment side but oversaw official H&S inspections, booked fun fairs, bars, food catering liased with all emergency services and yes been overall in charge of the budget.

Again you're changing this thread, nobody is shouting "Ah! but they're not a VJ" it's not the point of this thread, they (the collectives) will or should be receiving a fair fee I'm sure. Were discussing the normal run of the mill forum VJ here who even for profitable events struggles to secure a fair fee in comparison to those working around him at the same event for what he is supplying.

[many2]

There are some high-profile VJs, no doubt, and high-profile VJ teams too. But I still maintain that you cannot call it VJing if it's not based on someone mixing video in real-time. I am not saying that this is the case all the time and everywhere, but in my experience all the big shows and projects I've been involved with were not based on a VJ performing live. Everything is pre-programmed as much as possible, with live controls reduced to the most essential parameters. There is no solo improvisation, only collaborative design work.

I haven't performed live in over 5 years now, so I certainly cannot call myself a VJ. I am not looking at VJs from above (else, I wonder why I would be here on the forums on a daily basis) far from it, but I know what I do is not VJing. And I know I would not get the contracts I am getting if I was presenting myself as a VJ. In fact, I'd probably have problems getting hired as a VJ now that I've been out of the real-life VJ scene for so long !

[sleepytom]

Originally Posted by SteveG

Again you're changing this thread, nobody is shouting "Ah! but they're not a VJ" it's not the point of this thread, they (the collectives) will or should be receiving a fair fee I'm sure. Were discussing the normal run of the mill forum VJ here who even for profitable events struggles to secure a fair fee in comparison to those working around him at the same event for what he is supplying.

i'm not changing the thread, i'm just doubtful that events which spend a lot on other areas of production skimp on VJ budgets to quite the degree which you say.

plenty of people here seem to be more or less happy with the fees that they receive, there are certainly people here who've been VJing at a professional or semi-professional level for many years. Most of them have quite variable rates which reflect the range of events that they perform at.

there will always be jokers who try and get people to work for low fees, the guys who are offering tickets in and a couple of drinks to VJs are the same one who cut the lighting budget, don't pay their flying people, and fail to provide the correct equipment on their headline acts riders. Mostly these promoters don't last long. They get an all-round bad reputation and people start to refuse to work for them.

These sharks don't give a damn about the reputation of VJs as a whole. They won't ever pay fairly as they have the policy of keeping as much of the money to themselves as possible.

Other events have high production standards and spend more on their overall production, generally these people want quality and will look for people who can produce work of a suitable style to a high standard. Not all these events are big-budget shows with thousands of punters. A small event may spend a 1/4 of their total budget on VJing, but that could still only mean £200 for the VJ.

Maybe I'm really lucky or something but i've rarely played at an event and thought that my fee was disproportionate to the fees of others around me. I do turn down gigs though, but i don't take it as a personal slight against me if I'm asked to perform somewhere which I don't want to play, be that for financial reasons or "artistic differences".

On the other hand I've also ended up being booked by events which i was initially too expensive for, after they went with someone cheaper and got a bad service they have come to me and paid what i asked. They've been very happy to get a proper professional service and i've got to work at their event for a proper rate.

But then i'm probably a production company by your standards! I certainly don't depend on VJing for my income, though most of the work i do uses skills that i would never of learn if it were not for VJing in clubs. Ultimately this is how all of the successful VJ/ Production Companies work, they do a range of different jobs including some VJing.

[deepvisual]

I still dont agree...

lets take a couple of examples of outstanding ' collectives'

light surgeons.
well, they aren't a collective at all.
its chris's company, always has been.
he just uses a close circle of people who work with him, but its his baby, his vision. he calls the shots.

inside us all..
I'm no expert on their history, but at some point there were so many people claiming to be in the 'collective' that they had to disband it and move on.


its one thing to have an artistic collaboration with people, its really handy to have division of labour, but its another thing to try and run a business as a commune.

[PCProject]

Originally Posted by deepvisual

inside us all..
I'm no expert on their history, but at some point there were so many people claiming to be in the 'collective' that they had to disband it and move on.

Roger went back to Australia
I left to focus on my own stuff.
As far as I know all the mates are still mates and many/most of the collective it grew into still work doing stuff together on different projects.

[deepvisual]

Originally Posted by PCProject

As far as I know all the mates are still mates and many/most of the collective it grew into still work doing stuff together on different projects.

I'm sure that's true, but as an entity IUA isn't around anymore - and depending on who you ask it was a victim of its own success. hardly a great model for running a successful enterprise.

in business terms, ltd companies are invariably more stable than partnerships, or workers co-ops.

[SteveG]

I'd say you act as a Production Manager to a degree Tom more than a VJ and therefore I think we've got to accept that you'll never support this 100% as it's a conflict of interests for you. This is fair enough just don't sit on the fence and start suggesting VJ's have got to supply more and more...what for less and less financial gain. Almost anybody on this forum can take on large jobs and sub contract, I can name a few VJ's around that advertise services and equipment they don't own and can't provide as individuals. You'd think this was all rocket science at times here