paid and low pay/no pay job section discushion

[unjulation]

like i said in my pm until you can talk publicdkly about all aspects of your work then its not goimng to change anything

[stickygreen]

someone had a great idea of renaming the low/no pay section. I can't remember the exact word that was used, but it was like gift, or charity. (?)

anyway the section is always going to attract the kind of bullshit promoter that is everywhere, you can't stop it. just like you can't stop a flame war on a chat forum. best bet is to steer it in a better direction.

[PCProject]

After a long skype conversation with Unj where we amicably discussed this matter we arrived at the conclussions that follow.

From the promoter side, who is, most likely new to the promoting thing, it is a lack of understanding on the ask.

From the VJ side it is an effort to educate (although it may not come across as such) promoters to these hidden costs that probably havent appeared in the promoters thinking .

The solution would be a non reply option to threads in that section coupled with something that gently explains the costs both hidden and otherwise to doing a free or low pay gig that would be visible to anyone before they could make a post. The hope in that being is that those promoters would have a more realistic view of what they should be offering as a minimum or the amount of ask to a complete stranger.

[deepvisual]

well, lets not forget this is a global forum.
acceptable business practices vary massively from place to place, even within the same country.

rather than lecture the Promoters, I think there is more value in recommending beginners not to work for peanuts without a genuine advantage.

[SteveG]

I don't particularly want to join this debate unj and certainly don't want to fall out with you over a discussion about payments but would like to add I agree with almost everything Dave has said.

As a contributing VJ to the forum I have a right to question promoters or organisers if I feel they are trying to take advantage of me being one of the VJ's or others. I do it on behalf of others at times as I'm reasonably lucky to get half decent club gigs. I also wish someone had done it on my behalf when I was trying to start.

If you think even a new promoter is incapable of recognising the fact that what we do en-tales expenses and expensive equipment then I think you should give yourself a bit of a shake. I've openly mentioned figures on this forum as a hint or an indication of what I may or may not charge a club as a reasonably fair payment. When promoters start asking for specifics such as customised content/logo work, cameras live feeds then they are quite frankly taking the piss and should be told if they are not paying a fair rate for this.

Believe me I tried for several years to contact these stereotypical promoters to ask them in private or make suggestions, being the type they are I would normally recieve a blank response as they know damn well what they are doing.

Most new promoters go to other events, ask VJ's about their costs etc well before they plan their events and are normally "in the know" I personally am asked probably at each event how much I normally charge for x,y or z. Ignorance on their behalf is no excuse and if their truthfull on the forum would admit to this.

I have no issues with people doing events free or cheaply if they feel it's to their personal advantage. I would say however that 9/10 times it wont be and that is through experience.

A VJ creating decent customised content is capable of commanding a fee good enough to see him drive around the country and beyond if he insists on being paid fairly. A VJ can expand into new and better things if he insists on being paid fairly, he can look forward to buying new programs and nice new equipment if he is paid fairly. All from the earnings of VJ'ing. Doing free work and parties will see you remain static doing those free parties and struggling to maintain your equipment.

DJ's have the advantage of having agencies in order to command decent fees, and when a DJ becomes decent or becomes popular has the fortune of an agency. We don't and have to do this personally. If the forum is a means of getting a point across then I feel it's a good way of doing things. If you think agents don't argue about fees perhaps you should speak to some promoters.

I would suggest that VJ's do a little homework on figures, DJ fees, and find out what the financial implications are with events and take it from there. If a promoter can't see the value in raising the event price by £1 ( a figure the public will not even consider complaining about or even notice) in order to finance a VJ (basic) then quite frankly he doesn't deserve to have a VJ. This would see a VJ being paid £150 for a small bar club type event and...well work it out for yourself although I do feel a cap of around £500 for a large club event is more than a decent fee. That is of course as long as the brand or promoter involved is paying for the screens, projectors and taking care of the rigging and other technical aspects.

Having said that VJ's should be aware that to charge decent fees then their content has to match their requests. To constantly re-mix poor quality footage which is being shown around the world constantly normally from from Audiovisualizers or VJ Vault wont cut it and as requests for fees rise the quality of content has to rise along with that request otherwise again VJ's start picking up a bad name.

As an example I'll use one of my own freebies here. The girls face. I ocasionally get VJ sending me links to clips where they've used them which is great to see and many thanks for doing so. However, some have been downloaded over 10,000 times. That's potentially 10,000 + VJ's re-mixing that worldwide....there's only so many remixes you can do to make it differ enough from what others are doing. So no matter how you remix these free clips and the promoters like it at the end of the day most will have seen very similar content...why should they offer VJ's any real payment. If you look at some of the download figures other VJ clips have recieved then the senario becomes even worse with "over play" becoming absolutely ridiculous.

Many times I dare say that young promoters are not making profit, many loosing money. But they have taken a decision themselves to try and work their way up in this business. Why should VJ's be used as their stepping stone as I guarantee they will (most) not ensure you go along with them for the ride but will change their VJ's along the way.

Questioning promoters or fighting back at big brands who delay payment or refuse to pay does not damage your reputation or booking potential.

The typical things I object to are promoters failing to pay for a VJ whilst handing out free drinks and drugs to DJ's, party goers or hangers on, or going home with a massive profit themselves. You justify why a VJ should work for peanuts under these circumstances and I'm all ears.

To remove the right of VJ's to question on this forum is just as bad as some of the Govt decisions that many get enraged about on the forum.

[unjulation]

dont worry steve i have no intention of falling out no matter what you said i just felt that it is a worthy subject to broach and welcome all thoughts veiw points

one of the things that came out of my conversation with pc project is that i have to accept that ive been working within the party/"rave" sceen and because of that have a perticular slant within my opinion of doing work for little or no pay -

because its worth doing just for the sake of it it - the party it's self justifies my time and money(equipment)

but i can see that if you are working mainly within a townie club based environment you could have a axe to grind

because we all know promoters are the spawn of Satan

[SilentEclipse]

I find it interesting that Unj started this thread after I questioned a promoter on the forums, its the first time I've done this. Although I've seen countless posts asking similar questions before, where the member has not been refered to as 'Prissy' and 'Childish'.....

[SteveG]

It was refreshing to see actually Jo...must say though that I considered, thought about a sarcastic comment, only joking I hope that the question wasn't raised just as the poster was a VJ however, promoter is a promoter whether VJ, DJ or bus conductor

I feel that some of the moderators should be more vocal on this issue. If one or two were prepared to voice the questions more directly and cover all the issues involved there would be no need for the same old VJ's raising them and being branded as moaners constantly....coz were not really

[unjulation]

why do you find it "interesting"? SilentEclipse

edited to add -

1) i think its about time we as a comunity sorted this out
2) it has been a very long runing discusion/argument between individual vj's
3) this is not persosonal - if you do a serch of posts under my name you will see that i have been vocal about the situation ware vj's moan about peeps puting on partys
4) camale and strew springs to mind

[sleepytom]

can we draw a line under this. It is really fucking boring apart from anything else.

I'd like to suggest that Steve, Dave and whoever else wants to join in go and draw up some guidelines for promoters which explain a bit about what they should try and do to keep VJs happy, and some guideline rates of pay based upon venue capacity and door charge.

This guide can cover other aspects too such as hiring equipment, getting the club graphics to the VJ in plenty of time, providing a suitable space for the VJ complete with a table(!) Not using the VJ as some kind of VIP cloak room for the promoters mates crap. etc etc.

With about 50% of the effort you two put into replying to little promoters you could make a really good funny guide that would hopefully be read by some of them before posting and could be linked to below their posts for people who still seem to be taking the piss.

What i find annoying is that people who are organising a small night somewhere really don't make a load of money from it. They have to pay lots of costs including venue hire, security, flyers, DJs, sound system hire, video projector + screen hire, and of course VJs fee. When they come here and modestly suggest they are going to do their best to sort the VJ out with some cash but that they cannot promise loads of money, they get the same treatment as the guy from MOS asking for alnight VJing on a saturday with superstar DJs. This seems deeply wrong to me, the assumption that they are going to stiff the VJ but sort everyone else out isn't the case in my experience of this type of gig. More often the promoter is trying to be honest and is saying "i'll pay you if i can afford to, but don't expect it to be a huge wage" This seems totally fair enough for smaller clubs without big name DJs playing.

I simply find many of the arguments people make against promoters to be quite weird.. here are a few of my favourite ones which don't make any sense to me.
"The DJ won't have to bring his own mixer / decks" - Really? have you been in a club recently? Its very common that the DJ will turn up with at least a laptop and midi controller, if not a full set of decks. When these posts are advertising turntablists nights then this is all the more true, I've never seen a decent scratch DJ play on the in house decks and mixer, they ALWAYS bring their own (and they don't fucking moan about it either). I'm waiting for the clued up promoter to reply with a "yeah but the fucking DJ didn't give me a list of kit to hire as long as my arm that has to be sent down from london"

"The DJ just plays other peoples music, I make my own clips and so I'm more creative, more valuable and harder working than the DJ" - Really? get over it. DJs spend years listening to music, finding the best tracks, working out what goes with what and ensuring that the punters are kept dancing thought the night. Sure they enjoy what they do, but you enjoy making animations (don't you? if not then feck off and do something else with your life) Rubbishing someone else's work doesn't make anyone think your better or more valuable.

----
Steve is very simply wrong about a lot of these promoters, they are not setting off on a career where they want to become the next Harvey Goldsmith, often they are just putting on a little night for fun / as somewhere where they themselves can do some DJing. Often their DJs will be getting paid very little or nothing, the night will be aiming to cover costs rather than make loads of money. These nights are mainly full of the promoters mates who absolutely will notice that the price has gone up by £1. Paying a VJ £150 when nobody else is making any money is never going to happen and its an unreasonable request to make of people.


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the other point i'll make to you whipersnappers is that people used to "do the visuals" - we got paid for doing the visuals as this was a better understood service involving bringing all the needed equipment as well as preparing some specific content for the night. Promoters understood that this was work and used to be happy to pay for it (just as they were happy to pay for backdrops and other bits of "art" to liven up the club) These days "VJs" seem to expect the promoter to provide all the equipment, setup the screen and projector and pack it all down at the end. Most promoters don't have very good contacts in the AV hire world and so are paying top dollar for their screen and projector. Often promoters who only pay a VJ £100 have actually spent nearer £500 on "visuals" but they had to get a screen and projector (circa £250) have it delivered and collected (£50-£100) and setup / taken down again (another £50-£100) As far as they are concerned the VJ is just going to stroll in with their laptop and show off their graphics to people, so its easy to see why they feel this is an opportunity rather than a job.