another music video collaboration

[SteveG]

Bull$hit I'm afraid Alex. A true collaboration would see things done fairly and on an even playing field not on a basis of you give we take. This approach was not done by the artist himself. 9,999 sales and the VJ gets nothing...that's no collaboration and someone on the forum should be questioning cowboys when they come trying to take advantage. You do not see every post asking for free or cheap VJ cover being "flamed" I can point you towards at least one on the forum now that has been left completely untouched because it is clearly genuine. Although offers like this are challenged the poster can always explain or go into more detail, likewise VJ's who wish to do the work are free to do so.
Just as cowboy approaches are challenged some good jobs are also challenged, Tom has challenged one of these only today. If people don't or elect not to post the full and truthful details then they will face questions like this and that I'm afraid is common sense and good business sense. making good challenges gives the impression that we actually know what were doing here and not a bunch of school kids with a laptop playing around in this game.

[PCProject]

Im with Steve on this too

I wouldnt dream of going to a music producers forum and suggesting the same deal

I bumped into a 'proper' releasing music producer friend in town earlier today and happened to mention this approach to him and my did he laugh when I suggested he could shift 10k units of his own next release - IF somebody is going to open with something that is patently such an outrageous piece of fantasy accounting then I feel we have every right to question the numbers

However I would point out that I would feel guilty IF I had been rude to the guy and as I havent I dont

[fata alex]

Yes, the thought of shifting 10k copies of a self-released anything is laughable, to me it would have been more 'insulting' to us vjs if he'd said he'd give us 1p on the pound for what he made back, or something like that, but essentially, this is another amateur producer looking for an amateur vj to collaborate with, obviously he's not gonna phrase it like that himself, but the way you all react its as if MoS is trying to pull a fast one over on you (again? for some). All your battling for fair pay for vjs is wonderful, i do admire your steadfastness, and solid resolve to fight back against people taking advantage, but you need to be able to see when it's essentially someone innocently trying to use any incentive they can think of to get someone to make them a video.

So essentially what im saying is, dont give the guy such a hard time, if you felt the need to get invovled in his offer of collaboration then i don't think it should have been any stronger than "mate, you estimation of selling 10k copies is a bit unrealistic, either arrange a fairer profit split (even tho you both know there will be no profit) or just make it a non-commerical venture"

Sometimes the world isn't trying to swindle you.

Or maybe im the one who's naive....

[john01]

Originally Posted by fata alex

Or maybe im the one who's naive....

yes you are, people who make these kinds of offers often have very short memories

[sleepytom]

Hmm well i sit firmly on the fence with this stuff. I'm all up for good collaberations when they come along but this is clearly nonsense. Offering a payment of £1000 if the track makes £10,000 is rubbish. What if the track only makes £1000? why can't the VJ get £100 then?

Other ways that would seem to be fair would be a fixed fee offered for the video, then its just a take it or leave it kind of offer. (this is standard for pop-promos - the music video producer is normally paid a fixed fee regardless of how well the track does)

If the musician is keen to support the person he is collaberating with then maybe a fixed fee with a bonus payment if the track makes £5000 might be more reaslitic.

as to the frosty reception that people get on VJForums sometimes then yes i do agree with Alex to a degree, often people jump on threads when simply ignoring them / allowing others to take up the offer might be better. In this case though I feel it was good of people experienced in the breaks scene to point out that he's unlikely to make £10k off the back of this track, and as such any video producer is likely to make nothing at all from the deal.

The "we haven't got any money now, but we'll pay you if we do really well" approach is so very common with artists. In my experience it is never true. Its much more the case that "we'll take what we can get for free, and as soon as we decide to spend some money we'll go and find someone who values their own work more than the guy that been doing it for free for us so far".

The trouble with Steve's approach of jumping on this stuff as soon as he spots it is that it discourages people from offering any work on the forums. i wouldn't want to try and offer a low paid job or collaboration on here as the potential for getting instantly flamed is far too great. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way and whilst I admire Steve's principles of defending the VJ against exploitation sometimes what he sees as exploitation others might see as a good opportunity. Sometimes the only way to get to know when a bad deal is being offered is to of suffered from taking up bad deals yourself and as such maybe Steve could sometimes take a back seat and let newer VJs learn for themselves when it comes to what's a good and bad deal? After all at different levels of experience the same deal can be good or bad depending on what you'll get out of it. I've learnt much more from taking on some jobs which turned out to be a bad deal than i have from all the jobs which went really well and paid good money!

[SteveG]

OK Tom. Fair points I suppose from you and Alex. No more questioning for the foreseeable future from me. If we'd rather see the inexperienced taken advantage of in order to learn then I'll leave these crap offers alone. Personally I feel however, that the more often unrealistic or unfair offers are challenged here in public like this then the less likelihood there is of having them and gradually it will force all who visit to perhaps re-visit their unfair idea and force them into improving it. As I say, if I wish to challenge from now on it will be done in private where I have no doubt I shall not receive replies. I do not wish to see as you fear people who are fearful to post due to an over robust VJ who wants only a fair deal

[john01]

Originally Posted by sleepytom

The "we haven't got any money now, but we'll pay you if we do really well" approach is so very common with artists. In my experience it is never true. Its much more the case that "we'll take what we can get for free, and as soon as we decide to spend some money we'll go and find someone who values their own work more than the guy that been doing it for free for us so far".

Very well put.

There is always a limit to what you can achieve with no budget, unless you just happen to have a pro level camera, studio, lights, some beautiful people who like you and a load of time. But usually no budget looks either generic or cheap, if not both. If the idea is good you can get away with cheap execution to a degree, but as a rule as thumb the guy that does it for money will always end up with a better looking product, and the people that have the jobs that pay money will gravitate towards that (and nick your cute idea).

[housefull]

Originally Posted by PCProject

hmmmmmm

seems a bit of an intangible tangle to me after reading my PM

and my onboard BS detector is starting to twitch a little

so thats a definite no from me

Thanks for the info Eric. It was the devonpax dot com web site link that seems to be dead. Just as DJ's and musicians are complaining of their product becoming valueless I feel the industry should then be all to aware of the value of the visuals you request. It sounds to me that should you only receive 9,999 sales and the VJ who has attracted people to your music on Youtube gets nothing? We are more than capable of using major international artists and publishing our own details with anything we choose to upload. Youtube etc is all about visuals and visual impact without something decent, unless your music is superb will not be listened too. I feel you should be offering the VJ you choose a better deal. VJ's will then perhaps start sending you watermarked demos for you to choose from.

[asterix]

Missed this thread but can I add anyway - collaboration is about working together towards a common goal.

The benefits to the dj are promotion, a value add to their stage show and obviously revenue from sales. It should be a two way street - and it should have been offered to the vj unconditionally. You can't just say oh well you're part of the collaboration is only worth something if the dj makes lots of money / promotion etc first.

If someone came in and said hey I want to develop a stage show, vj's will come on tour with me and we can share revenue on video sales on an agreed % then that sounds more like collaboration.

But then again - I've never seen it here on the forums...

[pomoproject]

There is a group of about 30 vjs across Canada, Brazil and Chile interested in choosing a day to host a world-wide guerrilla vj show. If you're interested in becoming involved, please contact me: Meghan Athavale, info@pomoproject.com

At this stage we are discussing how to share content and what day would be the most appropriate. Any feedback will be gratefully accepted. There are some very amazing artists involved at this point, and it will be an exciting event to be a part of.