The big free gig debate (split from the Rocket festival thread)

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by SteveG

Art farty people at times dont know their arse from their elbow when it comes to art or anything else for that matter. Many of them follow like sheep...whereas in a club you will perform in front of people from all walks of life and many very well educated in the arts.

[devils advocate]Out of interest, in terms of making money out of them, what does that matter, we are regularly being told money is the new art criticism so if thats the case, what they know or don't know doesn't really matter - because what you want them to do is show you the money...[/devils advocate]

[asterix]

A free ticket is not payment imho - it is a given.

I'll play free for a charity event with a cause I believe in, but at the end of the day if the DJ's get paid - I should get paid. If I choose to play for the love - so be it.

Clubs and festivals DO make good money, but have inherently high risk (which is why most of them are underwritten). They are business entities existing for profit. IF they aren't making money they are particularly bad businesses, and I don't see why you should subsidise them or any other business unless they are subsidising the community (hence charity events). And in fact it is these scenarios where you need to charge to support your hobby (if its only that!!)

I think the arguement that no-one will ever go to an event just to see visuals hence you shouldn't get paid much is fkn weak and you are belittling your own personal worth. Who here hasn't gone to a gig mostly to see visuals?

A measly few hundred pounds is chicken feed to a festival - you want to know what they pay in pli, advertising, promotion, staging? They can and will try everything possible to get as much for cheap or free to offset their risk. Hey I'd like a new $15,000 laminator for my business - anyone want to subsidise me?

Welcome to the real world where nothing is truly free. Are you the one being charged?

[asterix]

Here are some questions I put to a commercial festival - that rely's alot on volunteers. They don't just make coin off the festival, but the satellite festivals throughout the year. They are big enough to have little to no advertising budget, and attract 10,000 punters paying $150 each (three days which is pretty cheap).



" is there any basic remuneration for vj's? I understand the importance of volunteering to any like minded event. However we invest thousands in equipment, thousands of hours in content creation and are artists in our own right. If you can't get remunerated at larger events like rsf - where else can vj's find support to sustain and cultivate our artform (just like dj's, rental co's and other performers do)"

[annaponda]

well said Asterix,

I do remember that the festival that sparked this splinter thread had the same line last year, were good guy's, blah blah...who cares. Personaly any festival that acts this cheap just should'nt bother with visuals at all...then well see theyre worth and value, the punters are going to be very disapointed, I'm sure they will because it's a given now days to be intertained audio visualy. And, half of them might not return next year.... it's a false economy ...peanut = monkey

I suppose the toilet cleaners also do it for a ticket and free meal?

sorry guys, youre taking the piss... it sucks

[sleepytom]

Originally Posted by annaponda

I suppose the toilet cleaners also do it for a ticket and free meal?

in the case of the rocket festival then yes actually they do.

Maybe it's time for you to stop being so fucking rude and insulting - maybe your not interested in contributing a little time and effort to be involved in a really good event which doesn't pay you. So fine don't do it then - but don't tell me i'm taking the piss.

have you got any fucking idea at all how much time effort and money I have personally put into projects which don't pay me, simply for the benefit of people who i've never met? maybe you'll take a look at the very site your posting your insults on. how come it still works? who setup the server it's running on? who co-ordinates paying for it so that it's still here tomorrow?

so sorry that you don't want to be part of my favorite event of the year - sorry that you feel i'm taking the piss. but frankly your taking the fucking piss by having the audacity to post such comments. You have no understanding at all of the type of event the rocket is or the history of the people who work fucking hard to make it happen. If you did you'd not be posting your idiotic opinions here.

As i've repeatedly stated before - I do not need to make this offer to anybody. We are more than capable of running world class visuals in all the rocket venues without extending the invitation to come and be part of the event to people who I don't know. However I want to offer this opportunity to people as Rocket is really good fun and a great chance to meet many people who are involved in many other events (the majority of which are much better funded than rocket)

[videoswitchboard]

I think Tom made his point and there isn't much more to add.

I'm very likely to go - looking forward to work my arse off at it.


For anybody who's been going to/ organising Free Parties, i believe this system makes total sense. A little bit of budget is better than none at all, it keeps the greedy bastards away whilst retaining a similar family vibe.
There is also the "Rome wasn't built in a day" long term effect. With so many festivals growing into monsters within a couple of years, it's nice to think that a gig can start small and let the various crews establish good working relations and trust- which should help with its long term success. Hopefully, the day this festival makes money, those who helped at the start won't be forgotten.

Edit:
sorry, posted this before seeing Tom's answer,
Tom, i can understand you getting angry but i think there's no need for the abuse.
The difference of views, practices and the fragmentation scene is actually a good source of fertility, and the best protection for small specialised events such as the Rocket to retain their integrity- you and me will view it as these people's own loss but we can't force them to see it our way.

Everybody should eventually gain from doing free gigs as it's a source of promotion (same as spending time on VJF), and those who are being militant about VJ fees are doing us a favor too.

Ana: the flights to the rocket are about £40 at the mo... sure you can't be tempted?


peace
dav

[gavspav]

Speaking as someone who would love to go to the Rocket but they can't afford to pay my transport and i can't afford to go I think its quite simple.

Someone makes you an offer (£1000 a night or just a ticket - it doesn't matter) and you decide whether to accept it or not. End of Story.

Some festivals are Mean Fiddlers making loads of cash but most (like the Rocket) aren't - so as long as the organisers don't say they'll pay but then rip you off whats the problem?

As an organiser you have to have someone to clean the toilets/pay the police/build a massive high fence that makes it seem like a prison/book acts which are going to sell tickets.

You do not have to book unknown acts/pay people to provide visuals/hire bizarre interactive entertainment experiences.

So its just a case of budget priorities.

I have been known to moan about the fact that you can't blag security to come for nothing but you can blag artists/hippes etc but thats the way it is. No way would I ever want to be a festival organiser - it looks like a nightmare.

Anyway Festivals are all about being outdoors - who cares about VJ's at a festival!!

Gav

[Rovastar]

Let’s try and keep this thread on the general issue of doing free festival gigs.

It is a general issue and I think worthwhile of debate.

If a big festival request themselves via visual co-ordinator/VJ, etc for a festival the

I have said before I think these are the few days of the year (like new years eve) that VJs can actually make some money.

They have spend ten, hundreds of thousands or million on the screens and visual infrastructure I think it is fair to have a proportion of that on paying people to put stuff up on the screens.

I wonder what percentage of the ‘door take’ is for visuals and then how much of that goes on hardware / hire companies.

My worries for free visuals at big events like festivals is 2 are:

a) It can cheapen our worth.
b) Others seem to get paid.
c) Word gets around the big players that even big gigs have 0 visual budget.

I would love to see a breakdown of how much the lighting budget, Music budget, Visual budget, etc is.

I worry Tom that if the general budget increased in future years the visual and specifically the VJ budget for such events will not be increased. At least not significantly. A 100% increase of a VJ budget will still be 0.

I believe that any extra money will go into other areas and I find that sad.

I find it more disappointing at festival that ‘claim’ to having strong visual/artistic credentials and they have no budget apparently for anything like this.

I understand that some do not make money. Some, frankly, deserve too lose money dis(m)asterpeace, antiworld, etc.There are some great festivals with limited budgets and I understand that.

If really that is an issue (and often I do not believe them) I would urge the people with influence to obtain a more reasonable budget for the visuals and maybe distribute the money better.

I would rather see some stages without visuals and the hire/time budget for those screens spent giving a little back to the VJ artist for performing maybe extra for custom content creation – maybe festival themed content or logos, etc. It is not like music acts ever do theme/custom song content is it.

On another level I do disagree with your valuations on how much VJs are worth? I sadly think that if you did have a proper and reasonable budget you would only pay VJs a little, as it is a festival and they get free tickets. Would you get a giant LED wall and pay everyone £100 which would not even cover travel? :P

It all depends on if you see VJing gigs as a job or not. There are some here that are trying and to a degree succeeding in making this a living or a significant proportion of their income. When an offer of a big capacity festival or superclub, etc suggest that VJ do a free gig some people understandably think it is cheeky and audacious.

I discount the argument that you only want the money and don’t do anything for free I cannot think of a single VJ that does not doesn’t regularly do something free and has done loads already.

I would say lets see festival gigs as a job first I often think ‘big’ gigs just use inexperienced (and experienced) VJs as they will do the gig on the promise of good exposure, etc and are blinded by it all. It is worthwhile when ‘big’ gigs request VJ for free/little money this other point of view. You know some festivals do try and get all they can from the VJs.

And I do think there are enough justifiable positive benefits to get paid and make a living from VJing. And being away for 4-5 days at a festival where you are ‘working’ (I know you might only be on for 2 hours but there are many other hours of time that go into getting there in the first place)

Festival gigs are often awkward to get to, not likely to be in your local area sometimes a lot of travel time/expense required, increased security/damage risks attached, etc conversely they can be good fun and have a break.

Actually a related question Tom – you said before that agents demand a fee for the musical artist therefore they do not work for free. Do they also demand a fee for charity gigs?

[SteveG]

Originally Posted by Rovastar

Do they also demand a fee for charity gigs?

Yes they do normally John but the luckier more persuasive you are the bigger the percentage discount you are likely to recieve. At the end of the day they have to survive too....but then again so do VJ's.

Here's a quote which annoys me a little from Michael Evis:

"In addition to all of this, the company actively pursues the objective of making a profit. And in so doing is able not only to make improvements to the site, but also to distribute large amounts of money to Greenpeace, Oxfam, Water Aid and other humanitarian causes which enhance the fabric of our society. In the running of the event the Festival deliberately employs the services of these organisations, increasing the amounts they can raise towards their objectives."

On the back of VJ's amongst other Michael.

Knowing what I know now I would happily return to Glastonbury for 50% of my normal fee. Until this is offered I shall not return.

[john01]

I think the root of this problem is creative people tend not to be good at money and evaluating their own worth. However people who are motivated by money and not art tend to see profit as the mark of success.

So VJing, like a lot of things associated with the creative side of life tend not to pay well if at all, but they do look good on a CV and will help get you a more mundane but better paying job. It sucks but that's the way it goes. In the words of Misty in Roots "Nowhere man can be free from money the controller"

How Long Jah

How Long Jah

However market forces dictate and actually the discipline of running an event where everyone gets paid is positive. My assistant is currently doing a charity job, as a large corporation we are obliged to do our bit for the community he got the short straw. Predictably the poor lad is suffering because the people he is dealing with are well meaning but incompetent. In my experience this is common, relying on people's better nature tends to lead to sloppy innefficiency, in Japan we call it "amaeru", to impose childishly on someone else's tolerance.

The art is to make the controller a positive force, even if you can only pay a token amount I think it is important to make the effort.

ps
I think you should make that contributed italics thing on the screen name monthly