don't rely too much on software

[sketchyj]

since i'm one of those "just starting out" (green, novice, etc) ...here's something i learned from my 2nd gig last night....
if you want to do precise beatmatching, forget about using only arkaos...sometimes it works great, sometimes it lags and is fussy...it started fucking up, being really slow at the show, so instead of sweating i turned on a DVD of prerecorded content that i had made and used my V4 to switch between arkaos and the dvd and i discovered that my show improved dramatically over using arkaos alone....using the cut in buttons allowed me to get results that arkaos is wayyyy to slow to handle....
that is why i would really welcome a dedicated hardware synth to the market...expensive machines that are built for one purpose only are expensive for a reason...because they work.
try playing a Korg Triton synth at the store then go home and play a soft synth on your computer and you realize why a Triton costs $2000 and a soft synth is only $300. you would have to be crazy to try and play a soft synth live because it lags and if you play it too fast it becomes a clusterfuck....
everyone else probably already knows this, but from now on i'm making my V4 central to my performance, and use arkaos to compliment that, rather than the other way around

[thomase]

err, yes and what do you think is in the core of that triton? you guessed it: an OS... which can fuck up.
It is true, computers tend to crash more often, but hardware that relies on electronics (with software that is) can also crash.
BTW: there ARE pro-musicians using softsynths on stage...

[sketchyj]

i wasn't trying to bash arkaos...but from my experience, i'd always choose a dedicated hardware machine over using software, if only for the fact that i've never experienced latency using a hardware synth, and with soft synths there is almost always some degree of latency. i would definately be interested in a hardware version of Arkaos if it were available, and i think that in the future synths like that will happen. But the point i was trying to make is that one hand controlling arkaos and another hand on the V4 works great for me.

[holly]

...but dedicated hardware, even if it is running an application, isn't ALSO running a bloated os and dozens of add-on patches and extensions -- not to mention translating various i/o protocals, etc.

Congrats Sketchy! This is lesson #1 that cannot be taught; it has to be experienced to be accepted. Humans can hear purpose in the music, and easily identify the patterns and rhythms and anticipate builds and breaks, while audio-reactives (even when broken down into EQ spectrums) can only hear volumes. YOU are the VJ, not some stupid brainless machine.... Hasn't everyone learned the moral of those StarBores, StarDreck, and Mormonstar Gallactica???

Bots never win!
=

[sleepytom]

umm i disagree here

software playback is the only way to actually sync video to music

i'm not talking about cutting to the beat which is so basic as to be unworthy of disscussion here, but actuall syncing where the duration of clips (and hence movement) is adjusted to fit the tempo of the music.

lets take the example of a dancing clip - by playing it back from a dvd the best you can do is cut it in on the downbeat andf hope that it looks ok. - this basically only works if you don't mind the dancer in the clip dancing out of time with the music that is playing

by using decent software and carefull editing you can create loops that are composed of bar long sections - when playing back these clips in a good VJ software they can be speed adjusted in realtime to match the music - this enables you to have the dancer in the clip dancing in time with whatever music is playing.

this is really quite fundamental to creating a good VJ set - i'm shocked at how few people seem to use this aproach and even more shocked that so few VJ softwares allow the precise speed control required.

BTW on the hardware vs software debate i think we get bogged down in stupid discussion of how hardware is inherently better - this simply isn't the case as all (digital) hardware is running some code (software) - i have seen video mixers crash on more than one occasion.

tools are tools are tools - well maintained computers with decent code can be as reliable as most "real" hardware

[hamageddon]

Originally posted by sketchyj
try playing a Korg Triton synth at the store then go home and play a soft synth on your computer and you realize why a Triton costs $2000 and a soft synth is only $300. you would have to be crazy to try and play a soft synth live because it lags and if you play it too fast it becomes a clusterfuck....

ohmygawd.. a triton? u're doing top40 or what?

but talking bout music software live, i've seen lots of ableton
around avit but no fuck up's.

it's up to you to build an audio (or video) system suitable for live purposes and that's ususally not just a system from the cornershop. so do your homework first here.

and btw: i'm still grinning big time at a CG-8 crashing, so what.

[hamageddon]

Originally posted by sketchyj
if only for the fact that i've never experienced latency using a hardware synth, and with soft synths there is almost always some degree of latency.

i still remember the legendary Casio VZ-1, thats was still busy playing when u ran one finger down the keyboard and already left the lower end. and one of the yamaha samplers that totally lost it when it had to play more than 8 notes at a time. need more examples? :P

[DrEskaton]

Originally posted by sleepytom
umm i disagree here

software playback is the only way to actually sync video to music

thanks for that sleepy that was interesting and definately food for thought.

you've got a very good point, unlike Resolume, Grid Pro seems to be designed with this kind of manipulation in mind so maybe you'll see more of this now.

[alangeering]

Tom has it so right, even your pioneer DVD players have a form of software, (called firmware), which runs on a processor (nowadays its often a 32 bit arm processor using the 16 bit thumb instruction set).

My kiss DVD player is actually running linux, albeit a small, optimised version for the microcontroller inside.

The more functions you ask of a device the more and more complex the programming becomes and the more likly the chance of an error.

PC's are so complex that it must be assumed that from time to time there will be unexpected behaviour (so we have a back up system/precedure).

DVD players used to be so simple, a few hundred lines of 8/16 bit asm - small enough that it could be all checked and garuenteed to be stable.

Now, dvd players are so complex, there are very few that work fully with their original firmware, so updates are now the norm. (like windows update for your pc).

This is why we test everything for long periods before we put them on stage.



Note: the consumer market requires a very fast "time to market" and faults are tollerated (we can always fix with an update later).

BUT there are markets where you have to get it right first time: medical electronics, automobile electronics, industrial control, avionics, fire control systems, etc.
In these cases, code is varified and simulated many times over, then the final product is tested many, many times over.
Yes there are still mistakes, but far fewer. Imagine if your heart monitor was as termperamental as your PC?

Where would a mixer fall?
Costs must be kept down, so I don't expect all its code to be fully checked (with every enentuality in mind). Generally hardware should be more reliable than a thrown together PC, but if time was spent on the PC, it could be tested and certified just as far.

Alan

[sketchyj]

i agree with sleepytom somewhat, i use that method a lot, most of my clips (400 for this gig) that are programmed into arkaos are of people, animals, cartoons that appear to be jamming or dancing to the music....but after 3 hours, even 400 clips started to feel stale, having the dvd (my own original content, not a movie) helped keep it fresh and flashing between arkaos and the dvd using the V4 allows faster control than i have been able to achieve with arkaos alone.....
when i latch a clip key in arkaos and apply another key which has only an effect on it, arkaos works beautifully....same thing if im using a clip combined with a flash animation.....it's when i start trying to toggle between 2 clips that i start to run into problems sometimes
i've had my ipod for over a year and it has never crashed once, can't say that for my laptop running itunes....
i love my lappy, it's just that i recognize its quirks and limitations, and i cant let my whole show hinge upon the assumption that the software or my machine isnt going to have a bad day....
plus it was actually really fun using the V4....the audience can really see what you are doing more clearly....people want to see your hands going crazy, it helps them connect the performer to the performance