Burning your own DVD

[holly]

videotechno wrote in another thread:okay, now i've got a question for holly & for anyone else burning their own content onto DVDs...

do you use a standalone burner? or, is it all computer-based, using an internal burner? an external firewire burner? or--maybe just post the brand/model # & i'll check it/them out.

here's my dilemna: i do a bunch of stuff with miniDV, and dig the resolution... but i'd also like quicker access to specific clips, and the ability to loop them couldn't hurt either. if you know the music well, and they stick to the setlist, mixing from a DV camera works pretty well. re-cueing or swapping tapes around can get annoying quickly though...

i've messed around with VCDs a bit, but it doesn't appear that burning DVDs would be much more painful* than VCDs. (*aside from the financial pain caused by the initial purchase of the burner...)

so... any thoughts or DVD burner buyers advice? or maybe answer via a brief review in the hardware review zone [if you'd rather not clutter the thread].

[elbows]

Well Sony have just brought out a new drive, Sony DRU500, which supports 4X DVD-R burning (about 15 minutes to do a full 4.3GB disc) and also supports the otehr formats such as DVD+RW

It costs around the ?250 mark in the UK for internal IDE drive.

Personally Ive got a Pioneer A03 and a Pioneer A04 at work (both internal drives), which only do 2X burning and dont support DVD+RW but they work pretty well anyway.

Other issues to consider:

Not every DVD player will read DVD-R discs, though most do and all new ones do. Lots of players dont do seamless looping of tracks though, so watch out, and also watch out for players which cant have the on screen graphics disabled.

Theres a lot of authoring software out there to choose from to build the menu's etc. Depends how sophisticated you want to make your menus etc really, I quite like ULead DVD workshop.

Be warned that the conversion of video to MPEG2 can take quite a long time, depending on what MPEG2 encoder you use and the speed of your computer. This is the biggest advantage of the standalone DVD recorders, they can do it all in realtime, and I believe some have firewire in, though personally I havent used one due to cost. Its worth spending some time comparing different encoding software for speed and quality, theres quite a difference in these things, but the best encoders cost loadsa money.

The consumer DVD-R format (DVD-R General) is not the same as the commercial authoring ones, for example the disc capacity is less and it doesnt support copyright protection. This wont really matter for VJ stuff at all though.

Note Ive got no Mac experience so all of the software issues above are based on PC.

[holly]

I use a Mac G4 Quicksilver with the Superdrive? built-in. It's essentially a Pioneer DVR-A04 (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/CDA/Industrial/IndustrialProductDetails/0,1444,21838,00.html) drive with Apple firmware. (There is an issue with this drive where it will BURN OUT if you use the new 4x DVD-R media. Everyone using this drive needs a firmware upgrade (http://www.apple.com/hardware/superdrive/) either from Apple or Pioneer.)

DVDs hold about 4.3Gibibytes of info (4.7GB). A DVD that plays on a settop DVD player uses a specific file structure called VIDEO_TS that contains all the M2V video and AC3 audio (or uncompressed PCM audio or Dolby? DTS audio) in 1 Gig chunks (VOB), and redundant instruction sets (IFO and BUP). The VOB files keep the video and audio seperate so you can swap out video (multi-angle content) or audio (alternate language or commentary) on the fly. Generally, when you see an MPEG-2 file it is a "muxed" file where the M2V and AC3 are interleaved together for streaming. I have heard of people burning muxed MPEG-2 files on a DVD to create what is essentially an sVCD on DVD, but I haven't tried this myself and it probably wouldn't work on all players. I use Apple's DVD STUDIO PRO to create VIDEO_TS folders which I burn to disc in Toast.

The quality of M2V (or MPEG-2) video is totally dependant on your encoder and original source video. I have used Apple's QT MPEG2 ENCODER which is one-pass, constant bitrate and is optimized on the G4 for encoding from DV. Faster than realtime on G4. It was pretty good with DV footage but lousy on CG graphics. I have also used CLEANER5, but it is so ass slow that it is basicly unusable. Now I use the BitVice M2V encoder (Mac only) from Innobits (http://www.innobits.com) which is 2-pass, variable bitrate and excellent quality for video or graphics.

Settop or componant DVD recorders are 1-pass, constant bitrate. They won't be as high quality as a pro-encoder, but might be super-conveniant if they can handle DVD-rw. Expensive, though.

Reliable blank 2x DVD-R can be bought from Meritline (http://www.meritline.com/comdealforme2.html) for about $1.50 each when you buy in bulk. (In DVD-R speak, 1x means it can burn a 4.3GbB DVD in one hour. 2x is half an hour, etc. It has nothing to do with the length of video). Expect to get between 1.5 to 2.5 hours of high-quality video on each DVD.

[murph]

anyone know if there is such a beast as an external recorder that can record from an external source or connect to a laptop via firwire or something else to burn like a regular burner? I'd love to have both options...

[vjpixylight]

looks like elbows and holly covered all the major aspects to doing DVD recording on both Mac and PC, and are quite informative..

One thing not covered by either is the progresive scan DVD stand alones... Now a days, the next generation DV and mini DV camcorders are using what is known as 'Progresive Scan'....
This is due to the advent of HDTV format video and the need to have a higher frame rate to match the higher resolution..

Progresive scan is basically the process of making a full 60 FPS video, which takes the place of interlaced 60 fields per second video, and makes for a much cleaner, flicker free viewing experience...

Well, with progressive scan DV, also comes stand alone DVD recorders and players that are also 'Progresive scan'.

Philips makes a rock solid progresive scan, stand alone DVD recorder for about 1000 USD, and there are a few more higher end professional progressive scan DVD recorders out there..

Also worth a mention is the new all in wonder radeon card, the 9300 pro video hardware card for PC's, which will ecode mpeg 2 from a capture port on the card itself...there are also various hardware capture boxes which will do this as well...

[skyvat]

>>>I have also used CLEANER5, but it is so ass slow that it is basicly >>>unusable.

Cleaner 6 performs much faster than 5.

[simple312]

This threat looks a bit old, but ... (couldnt figure out where best to ask this question)


I'm also using dvdsp to create dvds of my source material. Just burnt a bunch each with about 10 loops on it. Each loop is at least 5mins with quick fade out at end or black frame at end to account for the loop lag time. I also made 2 copies of each so incase i want to play 2 different loops from the same dvd.

I programed the loop in dvdsp but am now thinking that maybe i would have been better off using the player's loop function.

Another thought was to approach it like did with the vhs loop tapes. Just put one loop on a dvd for and hour or more. Bringing 50 dvds with me is far easier than 50 vhs tapes.

what have others done and found successful?

also it should be noted, (on a mac) it is much easier to create dvds in dvdsp then it ever was trying to make vcds. esp. with computer dvd burners at $300.

christian

[holly]

Yeah, I'm getting the best results authoring at the very least a disc loop so that the disc never stops. I'm putting similar content as chapters (actually a slideshow as this is the easiest to author with several m2v's as modular componants) which do not loop. For instance: I have a dancing girl, 4 different takes (close-up, full body, etc) each varying in time from 6 to 12 minutes. I authored a single disc with 4 chapters so my disc is all the same girl but with 4 variations. If I'm getting a good effect with the close-up I use the chapter loop on the player, but I don't worry about running out of disc or having a DVD logo bounce around the screen. She will be up there as long as I leave the disc in the player. With the dancing girl (for instance) I recorded her stepping in and out of the frame so at the beginning of each chapter she steps in and at the end she steps out = seemless transition for looping chapter OR for chapter to chapter. It is similar to your fade-to-black.

My take right now is to use the Old Skool stylee of having only one clip per disc, or a few related clips per disc, and having many many discs. For some reason it just doesn't feel as efficient to have many unrelated loops on the same disc. It's just easier to pop it in and play and not have to search for the right track.... There is no need to make a loop disc last a full hour as this just increases burn time and doesn't actually increase footage. I'm going for at least 10 minutes, but not more than 35 min, because with most of the players I've tested my discs on (if they fail) they usually fail around 36 to 45 minutes into the disc. Targeting your DVD-r burns to under 20 minutes seems like it will provide the most compatability for the most players....

Hope that helps or confirms what you are experiencing.

[simple312]

thanks. first gig with the transition to dvd is this weekend.

still, eventually want to shift to using my laptop primarily. Been using vdmx, but have issues with the frame rate bc of driver issues on the 1g 15".

Christian

[spork]

first off, thanks Holly for the link to MeritLine- they look great- and even have sampler DVD packs!

which are needed unless someone out there has a clearly pre-eminent favorite brand of printable DVD media-- our last foray into dirt cheap under $1 media turned out not so cheap because almost 60% of them were frisbees.

(titanium pbook G4 superdrive, DVD studio Pro, Disk Copy)

none of the few apple branded media turned out like that- but they don't make printable.

a further question on disc design- I'm also a fan of the pseudo-linear, old school way of making looped sections on the disc that themselves loop, but does anyone use a player that does not place a helpful status bug in the corner of the screen indicating its looping status, or if its going x2 speed?

tia....

[silk]

Originally posted by murph
anyone know if there is such a beast as an external recorder that can record from an external source or connect to a laptop via firwire or something else to burn like a regular burner? I'd love to have both options...

I've got at my work an external philips dvd recorder with dv-in and what I heard you can record realtime ....going to play with it when I have more time left

[murph]

Heh, since I posted that I've gone through two different recorders with firewire, and I'm awaiting delivery on a DVD-R computer drive now. I wish I'd just gone computer drive to begin with, but oh well.

The phillips recorder I had worked great, but my BenQs don't like DVD+R, so I had to sell it. (and it has apparently made it into dave's recent psy trance contest! I almost won it back!)

Now I have the panasonic DMR-E60, and the discs play nice in my BenQs, but the firewire input won't record from my computer, because it assumes you have a camera attached and wants to control it!

So, soon I'll have both, the DVD-R drive to record material from my computer, and the recorder to record live sets. Though I wish I could get a decent price for my E60 so I could get a recorder that'd work properly, recording directly from the preview output in premiere was slick as hell!

I do have one question though, does anybody know of software that will record to DVD in realtime from a firewire input on a computer? Like using your DVD-R burner like a recorder? I'd think that shouldn't be *too* difficult! (maybe only possible with an mpeg2 encoder card?)

[VjDeranged]

ok..and so none of you lot even thinking of buying the new dvd-camcorders then? I mean record straight to dvd disk by placing it into the minidv camcorder itself?

No IM NOT SMOKING A SPLIFF!:bullshit:

:D http://www.updatexp.com/dvd-camcorders.html

[spork]

hey Murph- have you tried using a firewire bridge of sorts to trick the DMR-E60 in to thinking it has a deck at the other end?

boxes like the Miglia Directors Cut claim to appear as decks or cameras to firewire aware devices-- review posted here:
http://www.soniccontrol.com/tech/midi/articles/060102/directorscuttake2.shtml

was that your only woe with the Panasonic?

have you used the timeslip function during a show??

have you heard of an issue where the machine eats inferior DVD media and won't spit them out?

the resulting discs- are they widely compatible?

I can't wait to afford one of those- they a good way forward.

[complexvisuals]

Originally posted by spork
have you used the timeslip function during a show??


Tried Googling "timeslip", what is it?

C

[spork]

... is a function found, i beleive, only on the panasonic series of DVD recorders, that allows one to playback a section of the disc !while continuing to record! on another section... so you could have your live feed of the people dancing and watching themselves on the screen, and then be able to loop back to it... kool!

also, on a side note, I just ran across this on slashdot that should be of interest to those on here seeking to raise the bar of VJ resolution to HD and beyond...:

http://www.e4engineering.com/item.asp?id=50014&type=news

seems these Japanese experimenters are testing a system with 4000 lines of vertical resolution... but only for those who like their kit bulky, costly, heavy and expensive...

[murph]

Originally posted by spork
hey Murph- have you tried using a firewire bridge of sorts to trick the DMR-E60 in to thinking it has a deck at the other end?

Part of what I liked about the recorder is not having to use a firewire bridge! I can't afford another $300-500 for something the stupid recorder should have done in the first place. I'd rather just pay $90 and get a DVD-R drive for the computer-based stuff, and sell the E60 to get a cheaper desktop recorder that's analog only.

was that your only woe with the Panasonic?

Yes, otherwise it's the shit! (but that was why I paid $200 extra for the E60)

have you used the timeslip function during a show??

No, though I don't really do much where timeslip would be useful. I hate cameras. =]

have you heard of an issue where the machine eats inferior DVD media and won't spit them out?

ouch! No, haven't heard of that one thankfully.

the resulting discs- are they widely compatible?

I've heard of one DVD player that won't play them so far, though I think it was pretty old. Very compatible. =]

[holly]

ok..and so none of you lot even thinking of buying the new dvd-camcorders then? I mean record straight to dvd disk by placing it into the minidv camcorder itself?

No IM NOT SMOKING A SPLIFF!

http://www.updatexp.com/dvd-camcorders.html

I was hoping these cameras would bring down the price of mini dvd-r, but it doesn't seem likely that minis will ever be cheaper than the 5". Had a fantasy that all my VJ would be on cute little discs.... Eh, it's not like 5" is all that huge.

Haven't seen resolution specs on these but I'm guessing the mpeg2 format would be better than DV, but not necessarily.... And it's not dvd-rw, is it? Would be better if it re-records.....

[loboy]

A very informative FAQ about DVD tech:

http://www.dvdanswers.com/index.php?r=0&s=31

[loboy]

Digital
Venereal
Disease

[wellREDman]

i saw the advert for the timeslip thing, and thought wow,

you can playback from and record to the same disk at the same time

atm ive made a coupla mixes with my dvd recorder where ive recorded two sets of mixes with two layers of stuff,
then played those two back and recorded the mix between those two
and because you need to finalise the disks for them to play in any other deck that basically wastes two disks

itd be nice if with the new panny recorders you could just keep re recording your mix adding a new layer each time :)

[BrainStove]

Yeah Red that?s the whole point to get those models including a HD inside, that way you wont have to waste a couple of DVD-r disks each time you want to add new layers and remix the stream in an endless loop.
Using the timeslip feature in those and feeding the video output again thru the 2nd bus into your Videomixer will do the trick for you. ;)

[holly]

Originally posted by wellREDman
atm ive made a coupla mixes with my dvd recorder where ive recorded two sets of mixes with two layers of stuff,
then played those two back and recorded the mix between those two
and because you need to finalise the disks for them to play in any other deck that basically wastes two disks

itd be nice if with the new panny recorders you could just keep re recording your mix adding a new layer each time :)

I do this all the time. That's what +RW is for. Plus, the discs don't need to be finalised. The "+" format is good for that, and you don't tie up the recorder with playback....

[ElCoyote]

Originally posted by holly
I was hoping these cameras would bring down the price of mini dvd-r, but it doesn't seem likely that minis will ever be cheaper than the 5". Had a fantasy that all my VJ would be on cute little discs.... Eh, it's not like 5" is all that huge.

Haven't seen resolution specs on these but I'm guessing the mpeg2 format would be better than DV, but not necessarily.... And it's not dvd-rw, is it? Would be better if it re-records.....

there's no way those camera approach the quality of mini DV.

-A Mini-DV cassette holds 13 Gb => 25Mbit/sec
-A DVD-R holds 4.3 GB (much less for mini dvd) => less than 7Mbit/sec (most DVD player won't play smoothly beyond 7Mbits)

even at the max "reliable" bitrate, 7Mbit, I have to experiment alot with encode settings to get a DVD that looks like the DV source.

So far, the best encoder I found on the mac is Bitvice. FinalCut's Compressor is ok but no more, and Cleaner is near Bitvice, but so much more slower and not as much pre-processing options.

I really wonder how a realtime hardware MPEG-2 encoder could give decent quality for a product under 1000 bucks.

[holly]

Well, if you are starting out with DV compression, and then encode to MPEG2, you will of course not end up with better than the original DV....

If, however, you are starting out with a progressive, high-quality codec like M-JPEG, ANIMATION, or UNCOMPRESSED, I think you will agree that MPEG2 can look much better than DV. I use Bitvice on my computer animations, and it is cleaner than DV.... If I have extremely detailed footage (or extremely active footage with a lot of full-screen motion) I generally push Bitvice up to 8Mbits/sec (well, it's a 2-pass codec so it still has the last say at what the final bitrate is). If a camera encoded natively to MPEG-2 it could quite possibly surpass DV, or be worse - since, as you pointed out, these disc cams are probably using a low bitrate to get more time from the mini-dvd-r.

My Philips DVD+RW recorder cost well under $1000 and it encodes over 9Mbits/sec mpeg2 at the highest quality setting (audio is encoded as AC3, but I'm not sure the audi bitrate as I've never checked it), for a combined audio+video bitrate of 10Mbits/sec. The DVD-video spec calls for players that can handle a minimum of 10Mbits/sec, not 7Mbits, but you will not get more than one hour out of a 5" DVD using such a high bitrate....

[ElCoyote]

Originally posted by holly
Well, if you are starting out with DV compression, and then encode to MPEG2, you will of course not end up with better than the original DV....

The only circumstance where DV totaly bails, in my experience, is when you have sharp, constrasted graphics on a saturated red or blue background (or the opposite). There, I agree that MPEG-2 behaves a bit better. But I had so much trouble getting a fade in not to "band" with MPEG-2 which wasn't in the DV footage... and real life (not computer generated graphics) looks so much more sharp with DV, not to talk about near black objects that become blocky even with a high bitrate.

About the bitrate limit, it really depends on the player. I tried 10mbit on a "cheap" Apex DVD player and it was skipping. Then I read on the net that 7mbits is the safe bitrate for most player. If your player can handle 10mbit and you only intend to use your own player to display the DVD-R, then it's ok.

But I would stay away from DVD cameras, that's for sure. They don't have any advantge, let alone that you can watch them in a DVD player.

Now I wonder why there's no MJPEG cameras out there. All around, I think MJPEG does a better job than DV, at only a slightly higher bitrate.