Setting up minimum fees for VJing

[elestial]

I have been VJing for 6 years, and it is still a problem to agree on minimum fees for a VJ set in the UK and London....
We should find ways to set a minimum fee!
Let try to discuss the possibilities here.
It is really time the promoters take the VJs a bit more seriously, to hire a powerbook G4 in the west end cost ?75 per day, so how could a VJ set end up being even cheaper than hiring equipement?

A DJ doesn't bring his mixers... imagine a DJ bringing his mixers and being paid less than the cost of hiring the hardware...??

It is really time to set some standards.
What do you think? how can we do that?

elestial.:. (www.elestial.tv)

[kvisuals]

Hi, I think the problem is - there is always a guy doing it for less the mony.

Small story: I did flyerdesigns for a punter - half a year ago he said like: oh that's a nice price. and now he is saying like: you should think about your price!
I said: I'm not doing it for less.

And I allready offered a smaller price cause he was coming every 2 weeks.

So, in the end they let the flyers do by a student (not a designstudent) or what ever. and it's imo bad now..

Anyway you are right there should be a minimum fee for vj'ing. But not just in London or UK. I do it in that way: counting the cost hireing the hardware+some more and than I put on top an amount of mony I like to have. Ok - if he is not wanting it or he likes to pay less than we have to fight it out. :D And always it depends on the kind of party (f.e. 200 vs. 2000 ppl) and the punter. And if not - I am doing it fo the fun of it. if he dont like the price: go find another.

I guess you have to be a bit arrogant cause you are an artist. ;-) And btw - software costs money as well. And an dvd is not reacting to the audience.

cheers :alien:

[DFUNC]

Maybe the problem is that a lot of promoter/party guests can not judge if the VJ is good or not or if its just a DVD. They are happy that there are some visuals, because they think thats something special. Which it is. At least in most parts of the world.

Nobody will write an eMail: "Hey Mr. Promoter, I was at your party and you played a DVD instead of having effects synchronized with the beat or the people. You?re so lame!"

Its the same with webpages. There are so many bad people without any skills doing many bad websites for a small price. And everybody is happy. Because they dont get the difference.

:(

[mikeyfreedom]

we are just going through the same dilemna about what to charge promoters. Its hard if you are doing gigs which are benefits for good causes but at the end of the day you need to at least cover depreciation/wear and tear on yer kit plus overheads like transport etc. In London I guess the minimum charge even for a benefit has to be like ?75 - 100 especially if 2 VJ's are playing and that only covers basic costs. If its a commercial gig for a promoter then at least double it.

Working for free is not sustainable.

The same people who argue money with a VJ who works 8 hours playing original material will happily give ?100 to a minor celeb DJ to spin someone else's tunes for an hour or two!

[sleepytom]

err finally someone is kind of on the right track with this thread....

"minor celeb DJ's" can earn ?100 - yet they have played many many free gigs for years to reach the status of minor celeb and be seen as being worth ?100

the equipment ownership argument is bollox too - most VJs now own almost no equipment - certainly nothing that can be considered expensive (its not like 10 years ago when projectors started at ?10000) how much money do you think the minor celeb dj has spent on records? (clue its more than your video mixer and camera put together)

ultimatly you'll be paid what your worth - most VJs work is pretty rubbish really and could easaly be replaced by a dvd or automated computer system and nobody would notice or care.

if you don't think your being paid enough then don't do the gig!

*historical context for you* i've heard people moaning on about the drop in prices in the vj scene for years and years and years - i know people that used to charge upto ?5000 per screen with a premixed VHS tape. They claim they were earning a wage of over ?100,000 per year from VJing alone. why could they do this? because there was hardly anybody else doing it.

[sakamoto]

I'm with Dfunc on this, most organizers and club owners don't understand what's vjing is all about, they just need to know that there's somebody playing videos during the night... good quality, bad quality, they don't really care.
It depends from the set & settings of course, anyway, a lot of times people in the clubs don't even care about the screens, even when the visuals are really dope.

[syzygy]

If hiring a laptop is more expensive than hiring you then its for a simple reason: the laptop is worth more to people than you are.

Sorry if it seems harsh, but the only ay to get higher fees is to justify them. Will your visuals bring more people to an event? Will your visuals make more people come back next time? That's what promoters think like (not because they are all bastards, but because that's how a commerical promoter has to think).

If you want higher fees, you're wasting your time moaning about it on VJ forums. You would be better off working on your material and marketing yourself to promoters.

Dan.

[InsideUsAll]

or consider moving out of one of the most expensive cities/countries in the world where art is very much the passtime of individuals 'not interacting properly with the system'. I know hardly anyone living reasonably well off this game, especially in england :sad:

[holly]

There are 3 groups who are always blamed: bottomfeeders, promoters, and the crowd. Ironicly all 3 seem to suffer from the same malfunction: a lack of common sense that prevents us from having our dreamjobs.... :P

There's a VJ here who got a regular night from a promoter who owes me a ton of money..., but she's totally underpaid and is giving them all this extra work (website, flyers, taping concerts, etc). She brings in her own pro-gear (which the club would never pay for), but she's using it for connections and reputation (which means real jobs with restarauntuers and record labels). I can't imagine she'll still be there in a year. She'll move on to better jobs (or get a boyfriend and stop having so much free time) and the club will replace her with 5 students.... or she'll start hiring "assistants" to substitute for her (try to start a VJ agency).... That's clublife (assuming you live in a normal town and not a vacation resort where every hotel has a profitable disco and the crowd is a steady stream of club-hopping tourists).

Instead of trying to alter someone else's behavior so it suits your needs, you would be better off figuring out other jobs that match your skills/gear/investment.... There's tons of other niches for VJs. Turkish just did a bar mitzvah and said the pay was great.... I'm doing corporate and liquor tours these days (in addition to my day jobs). Sometimes you just outgrow the club.

But shifting gears takes effort.... It's easier to blame bottomfeeders for ruining our unmaintainable ideals.:)

[Rovastar]

It is about offer something different and turning down gigs where you do not feel you are getting paid enough.

There are a lot of things to sell to a promoter/club owner.

Show a breakdown of costs to the promoter. Explain when each item costs to hire.

Say you want at least the same rate as say the bar staff.

Try and sell custom content promoting the next gig, etc, etc. Often too few VJ's use this properly maybe because of the lack of business savviness but also to do with big arty egos and not 'lowering' themselves to promotional images.

Politely decline if the rate is not in matching with yours. Stay in and make new stuff. Enjoying making stuff we all have flagship scenes make more of them to put on your demo. Sometimes going gigs for the sake of it is not the way forwards others may disagree and do every gig going. When I was starting out doing a few club nights I did a small 150 person night (didn?t realize it was so small until I committed support) and got paid a token fee. The best part of the night is when a punter came up to me and said ?What are doing this place for? You need to be on a big stage/night? I did a couple of days of custom content for the gig and he was right.

Say you can only play for the last 2 hours of the night of something.

Are you only doing gigs you like the music at?

I know a very part time VJ in the states that uses some of my stuff he does nights for reunions for 40-somethings and charges like $400 a night. Think outside the box.

There are plenty of methods of convincing the promoters to at least get something more from them. That is enough giving away tactics for now. ;)

[seex]

Some more tactics for paratroopers.

If the promotor sais your price is too high, and wants to lower it, you can say i wont work for less than that, but ill do it free this time. Show him what you can do and make shure he realises that you can ad a lot to his party.

Advertising a future event is a great idea, also helping to create the image of the curent event... displaying the name of the dj or the logo of the event, organiser.

A promotor can also offer sponsors the option of projecting the loogo time to time and if they pay realy well you can offer to risk and use illegal sublime methods and blend the logo in...

Dont forget to include some production cost for this too.

[devonmiles]

wasnt this thread about minimum vj fees? I would plead for a 100 euros limit. everyting beneath should not be accepted. and whats a 100 bucks? its a fucking nothing. its selling 20 overpriced drinks or ten tickets at the door. you have to do the 100 bucks job sometimes, for reputation or because the dj is so famous he takes all the money, but working for free is a no no. so besides of money you should find out what else can the promoter do for you. if he says he cant even pay you the minimum, maybe he can give you something that equals it. e.g. he has some nice amps, fine lighting, scanners etc in spare and you can borrow it for free if you organize an event yourself. or he has a bunch of promo onlys dvds and cds and hands it over to you. or next when he orders flyers he let put your flyers on the plate to be printed and you get some thousand flyers for free. or he bought some custom made music for promoting his club over radio and grants you the right to use it in your showreel dvd. even if he owns for some uncanny reason a hdv cam and borrows it to you for a month or two, everything that saves you money is like having the greenbucks in your hands.
there are a lot of ways how you can go without wasting yourself for free, just be creative.

and never forget: even work at the lowest level is paid. if you go dishwashing and the boss says to you " I dont know if I will hire you, first lets see how you do your job and end of the day I decide" , and then decides not to employ you, you will at least get the money for the day.( in germany and if you have a valid working permission...)

[seex]

True, If you work for free you shuld alwas know why you do it. My example sais, if you say my price is 200 eur and the promotor can only pay 100 eur. I say its worth more to do one gig for free, providing that the next time you get your fee... this proves worthy in a long term, if you know that its a one time gig only dont do it for free, you will benefit nothing...

[Amukidi]

What ever fee you come up with, be sure to say "Plus expenses" i.e. your travelling costs etc. And make sure you submit a rider - at the very least, a supply of beer and water and if it's a long gig, a meal. If you VJ for 100 euros, for many of you that'll turn into 40 euros once you've taken expenses off. To be honest - its a buyers market now, and as the others have already pointed out, if you want more, you've probably got to prove yourself to the promoter, but good luck - there's loads more queuing in the wings to take your place!

Take a business like approach, and you may (!) be taken more seriously - but show any weakness and most promoters'll take good advantage of you - and shaft you.
Take a look at the Musician's Union - they seem to have it sorted, but of course this takes time, organisation, more time, yadda yadda - face it, most VJs are amateurs and the club scene knows it, hell, some of them will even convince you that they are doing you a favour letting you play - my advice - pick your venues - there are places out there that recognise the value of VJing, I'm much happier doing a few quality, well paid gigs a year than go through the motions every week for fuck all cash / respect.

[rickmaersk]

have been VJing for 6 years, and it is still a problem to agree on minimum fees for a VJ set in the UK and London....
We should find ways to set a minimum fee!
Let try to discuss the possibilities here.


I saw your post on a similar thread and no one bit.
Were you just trying to start a collective gripe thread or are you suggesting a union or a cartel?

I find it really weird that you've 6 years experience and you still have problems dealing with promoters. All the advice you ever need has been posted in these forums already- how to price, what you should put in a contract etc. You probably know all this stuff already.

The price fixing / minimum union fee type approach is about trying to influence a whole market. A lone VJ doesn't operate in a "whole
market". All that matters is the business relationship with your client ( the promoter ) and hopefully a connection with his customers ( the paying punters ).
By the look of your web site you offer more than just VJing- you are also a graphic designer. This means that you can negotiate from a position of strength. You can afford to say " I can't work for that I may aswell do some design work and earn some decent money".
I'm assuming that you do commercial design work in London at the market rate ( ?35/hr?).

Maybe you are just picking the wrong people to do business with. Are you a bit of a push over when it comes to negotiating? Do you find it difficult to distinguish between being agressive and assertive?
This is very common with creative people. Maybe you need an agent / manager.

Is there a story behind the post? Have you lost your residency to a cheaper rival?

All creative work- music, acting, photography, design, art, DJing exists in a market where the bottom line is zero but there is no price ceiling. At one end of the scale lots of people act, play music etc for free. Some people scrape a living. Fewer still make decent money. At the other end there are artists and musicians making a killing.
This is because the work is of subjective value. You cannot measure how good a DJ is.

Most paid work exists in the market with a bottom line and a price ceiling of some sort. Nobody is going to design concrete foundations for free, but it's not going to make you a millionaire. Safe, boring but no chance of fame or fortune.

Maybe your post should have said "it's not fair, why can't I get paid for doing what I like"

Rick

[vjrei]

Tomorrow (Saturday) I have my first performance here in Miami in a private party, I'll get paid $400 for 3 hours I think and I am just bringing my 12" Powerbook and creating some footage beside my library. The projector will be provided by the production company that is hiring me. That is to give a reference.

Not, I said it many times... clubs are not target for VJs unless there is this huge club and Tiesto is going to be in. VJing does not produce more money for the club and many times is because VJs boring footage (beacuse I have seen toons of it). Any guy with his father laptop and resolume is a VJ now.

But the issue goes further, it depends on the contry too. In Venezuela a VJ is making around $500 a night up to $2000, why? because we are a culture devoted to parties and because people does not move from one city to other it is easy and profitable for an sponsor to develop a direct marketing with parties and events and wher do you think they are going to exposure their products??? on the screens.

Now advertising agencies are looking for the best VJs. Unfortunatly Venezuela is way too expensive and there are some other 300 problems to face, actually more people die in Caracas in a weekend that people in Irak just because of the crime.

VJing can not be a full time job unless you work with big events and artists. A VJ itself won't make a living and if he/she does for how long? (marriage, kids, savings).

Clubs are good to create a name and to practice and experiment, I have done presentations for less than $20, sometimes for free BUT depending on the party and I got to create a name between the croud, now that is in Caracas but in a place like New York with so many people that does not live there who is going to remember you? that is why I left to an smaller community like Miami.

In conclusion do not get crazy about clubs, find corporate events better and if you get a series of events would be better because creating footage and charging for it would make more sense for the client.

[elestial]

Thank you for everyone for all your replies, this is quite interresting!
First of all, my own replies to some of you...
Of course this is not about how much I can get for my own work, this is a general comment about the VJ fees situation.
I really believe there is something wrong in the actual fees...

VJs might get better fees simply because they supply the video projectors, but then what would happen if they didn't?

Of course budget depends of the quality of the work, but for a equal good standard quality we should all be able to set a minimum.

[DFUNC]

I will never supply a projector. That for sure. I know companies who have for every situation the right equipment. But not me.
I see me more as a DJ, than a technican. Have you ever seen a DJ bringing the sound system? *lol* They would look like Hulk Hogan!

And the minimum fee thing: Everybody has to find the answer for himself. If I need a club as a reference or a further contact and there is a famous DJ spinning, i took 100? in the past. But never less.

[holly]

http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lgET4001.jpg

[Amukidi]

Also, it's a bit like saying that there ought to be a minimum fee for Painters - so every gallery would have to set a minimum price for each painting, it just wouldn't happen. If you want bigger bucks, then you'll have to go out and find them - and have a show with "added value" - ie work that stands out against the crowd, which is getting bigger by the day!

[alangeering]

Before anyone jumps on me: I don't work in the club scene so am not stealing your business!

Now: I do much of my work for free (meaning at cost, or below). Why? Because I do it for groups that actually don't have any money.

When I do work professionally its on the technician side of things. In these cases BECTU (http://www.bectu.org.uk/) is the relevent union.

The market for video producers/camera people/riggers/etc. is much larger and older and has built up known pay levels.

From BECTU: MINIMUMS!
for TV or film:
Basic Rigger/Scaffolder: Daily rate: 8 hours: ?99
Advanced Rigger/Scaffolder: Daily rate: 8 hours: ?113
Video Camera Operator: Daily rate: 8 hours: ?139

If you're asked to work nights this is all multiplied by 1.5
If you're going over the time requested you add ?4.70 per hour
If you were not contracted to work nights but are asked to then you're entitled to an extra ?11 to ?14 per hour (depending on time of night).

See it all here: http://www.bectu.org.uk/info/docs/download/free/pact20031101.pdf


The VJ market is much younger, but maybe you should look at what your TV/Film brothers and sisters are getting, and how hard they are working.


Alan

[elestial]

ok.... looks like no one wants to agree on a minimum fee?

So let's continue as it is then!
;)

I guess this means everyone is quite happy about the current situation. Happy VJs :)


____________
www.elestial.tv

[holly]

It's not that no one wants a minimum.... or thinks that 100 isn't a round enough number.

But how do you plan to inforce this? What happens to a VJ who plays for 99? How do you plan to punish the promoter wjo hires the 99 guy? Are we all not going to buy drinks in his club? Will we carry signs outside the club? Are you unionizing?

And what is this business about "I'll never carry a projector because DJs never carry their rig"? Maybe you've never been to a wearhouse party or any corporate events. And the DJs I know at least carry needles and records.... The DJ I played alongside this weekend had more record crates than I had gearboxes (and I used THREE mixers!). He played a new track every 2 minutes. I didn't work that hard.

HOW many clubs in your town with built-in video systems? HOW many nights a week do you VJ to pay rent on 100 a night? And how many hours is that from set up to breakdown (assuming you are unlucky enough to touch a projector).

The real issue is what are you worth? When I supply projectors and screens there is no question what I am worth, but if you are showing up with a laptop and pluggin-in, what are you worth to the promoter? How many heads are you bringing in? And not your friends, I mean how many paying heads are you bringing in? Do you promote your show? Do you hand out flyers? Do you have a following?

If you want the same deal as DJs, you have to have a following like a DJ. DJs are the entertainment. VJs (sad to say) are part of the decor.

[cat]

But Alan Vj's are artists and should be paid ?1000 per hour same as DJ's,
What you mean that you dont, really, your dropping the bar for everyone! :rolleyes:

I've done a bit of TV and I got paid the same as the moving lights operators, which was ?300 per day, 9-12 hour days, seemed like a very reasonable amount for a weeks work. I suggest people look at what people in useful jobs get paid ie teachers and nurses before getting on their high horses about not earning enough, I know which job I prefer!
The main problem with making a living out of VJing is there are only 2 nights a week when your likely to get hired/paid unless you go on tour (when unless your doing stadiums you'll definately be expected to rig your kit, unless you can justify the extra hotel room/food/dayrate/tour bus space for your personal crew, or pay them out of you ?1000 per hour wages of course?).
So kiddies, give up your dreams of a champagne and cocaine life stlye, or go and buy some records and be a DJ. Or carry on with your GFX/web design etc (has there ever been a vjf poll of how many GFX designers there are on this site?)

I've always based my minimum day rate on the arts council guidelines of ?150-175 per day for artists, for which I'll bring my work and means to play it. Extras, projectors ect are extra....
And that is my minimum, not my maximum! i occasional do stuff for friends for free/beers, but never regularly.

[seex]

Some folks like decor more than music, actualy in the abstract where the music of today is the decor can ad a lot. I said this already but it seems like a good place to mention again. In your strugle to convince promotors that a vj will ad something to the show i usualy say its like ading liyrics to the music.

A magazine article that was all about vj-ing, had a talk with vj-s from our crew, for the title they qoted me saying

"the dj brings the people to the party but the vj keeps them there"

Marketing strategy is the way to go, not minimum fee, we dont have Al Capone to go round scaring people who dont obey.

[akira_k]

Originally posted by holly
The DJ I played alongside this weekend had more record crates than I had gearboxes
The DJ's recordbox/es is his CONTENT. You are comparing his ammount of CONTENT to your ammount of GEAR?
but if you are showing up with a laptop and pluggin-in, what are you worth to the promoter?If you are showing up with your records and spinning, what are you worth to the promoter? Same thing. Yup, it gets fuzzy in here, but it's obvious that it should depend on how good your work is and how you sell it. And most every good promoter should know what a good set of visuals is.

I'm a "plugger-in", all my big equipment (projectors, screens, monitors/matrixes and in some cases video mixers) is hired by the promoter/organizer of the gig, I just point them to the A/V hiring company I use to work with. I will never provide a projector in these parties, though I will invest in one for our personal/non-commercial endeavors, where hiing a projector is just not affordable.

Anyway, I suppose that, as you say, as long as your work doesn't bring in any people who's paying a ticket, you are not going to get as much as the DJ. There are exceptions though.

[holly]

No, I'm comparing how hard we work, as in actual physical labor (in this case, the dj squatted on the floor looking through his records more than I squatted looking through my dvd books.... Meanwhile all the DJ gear (and the lights for that matter) were brought in by a rental company who coincidently was formerly the DJ on these parties, but I guess he decided any money to be made is on the rental end....

My comments weren't meant to dis DFUNC, but you would think DJs walk in and plug in an iPod and play from presets all night while sipping cosmos if you listened to some of the VJs on this forum complaining about unequal treatment.... DFUNC also pm'ed to say he was no longer looking to make a living from VJing, which changes the context of this conversation entirely. Grass is ALWAYS greener, as they say. Are you looking to make a living or just looking to get token monitary "respect" from the club establishment?

VJ not= DJ

But the DJs who are successful (that I see) are also record producers and work hard to self-promote and generate a following. The time spent behind the decks isn't necessarily what landed him that job, or that "position" on the top of clubland. My DJ neighbor has a satelite radio show. Our Eyewash DJs all have day jobs same as the VJs.... And they work at least as hard.

Yes, I agree that working on your art is a plus, but that should be a given! Also, setting a personal minimum sounds like a smart idea, but it shouldn't be any suprise that there will be fresh young VJs willing to go for free and jaded old VJs (read: same person 4 years later) who are questioning the longevity of the situation. I'm not seeing the fresh young VJs learning from the oldtimers about how you make enough money to support the habit.

edited to change:
VJ NOT= to DJ, because the web doesn't seem to parse the "not=" symbol correctly....

[devonmiles]

theres an inofficial limit in the fine arts: its something like 1000 bucks for a 1 m X 1 m oil/acrylic painting. if you exhibit in a gallery and tell them you want to sell your paintings for 200, 500 or 600 bucks because its more probable that someone buys them, you willl not be taken serious. they will label everything with 1000 and up and you will sell nothing.( but you are a great artist ) why is it so? maybe its to seperate the boys from the men...

a hundred bucks is just a number, its an emotional thing that sometimes makes it easier for you to accept or refuse gigs. its not holy grail of the national vjs associations redbook and spiderman will not snipe out to punish the evil promoters running visual sweatshops where some illegally immigrated asian vjs suffer for 49 bucks the night.

[rickmaersk]

ok.... looks like no one wants to agree on a minimum fee?


There's no point. It wouldn't mean anything. But that should not stop you from setting YOUR OWN minimum fee.
It still looks like you want a union or some legislation to make up for your lack of business acumen.

Rick

[Amukidi]

"theres an inofficial limit in the fine arts: its something like 1000 bucks for a 1 m X 1 m oil/acrylic painting."

Where?

[elestial]

"It still looks like you want a union or some legislation to make up for your lack of business acumen.
Rick"

Hey Rick,
- I don't want to make a union, just talking about a subject, and it looks like it is quite an interresting subject judging with the amount of replies... with many different views and experiences that we can learn something from if we open our mind a bit.
- second. There is not lack of business for me.
- third. This is not about making money , this is about respect. I am also a painter so I know exactly what is the story about value of Art...

[devonmiles]

1000 bucks for the square meter is a quite traditional unit. sense or nonsense of it is of course highly questionable. in galleries like baerbel graesslin, barbara von stechow or adler (all frankfurt) mainly targeted on collectors, you will not find anything for less than 1000. (except photography and etchings/ engravings)

[Amukidi]

Sure, but those galleries will be taking at least half of that, and usually more! I spent a few years having commercial exhibitions of my work which, by some good fortune, were reletively successful, in as much as I sold nearly all the work. The galleries always took at least 33% but most took 50% plus a deduction for what they called "hanging fees", which covered booze and printing the invites and catalogue. With a price range from ?150 (220 Euro) to ?1000 (1400 Euro). At the end of the shows I was always amazed at how little actually ended up in my pocket, and that the only way I was going to make what was a decent living, was to put a price of ?5000 (7,200 Euro) on each picture. Whilst these prices might be viable in a Cork St gallery, they wouldn't shift anything in the provices, plus the big galleries always mark up at least 100%. Consequently, the only non-major artists making any semblance of a living over here are the ones who know how to work the bursury and ArtsCouncil grants system, or ones who have a 5 year waiting list to produce work all the same (cos that's what the punters want!). At least, when I pick up my wedge from VJing, I don't have to peel off half the notes and give them to some shyster, whose only contribution is a building with 4 big white walls.
As Holly says - for many, many clubs/venues, VJs are simply part of the decor and will probably remain so, especially the smaller ones. But there are huge un-tapped potential markets out there, you've just got to think a bit bigger!

[kvisuals]

@ Amukidi: I agree with you - think a bit bigger boys.
Since (in my opinion) most of us are not doing visuals to make a living of it I still would say "If the promoter is not paying at least the same mony as the bar ppl getting - I'll not play. This is for the clubs. If its going to be a concert or more than a 1000 paying ppl they may pay more. Just as said before - dj's are getting ppl in and a vj is keeping them in.

Why do I say most of us don't need making a living of it???

It's that easy - if you would make an living of it you would not ask to play for let's say the costs for hiring screens and beamers. You would just ask for more. AND your arguments would be better to the promoter.

You just have to make a name out of you. in germany we say "Klappern geh?rt zum Handwerk" That means just make some noise around you and show what you have - even if it is a bit more. The only thing you should be aware is that you dont play to much. We are all a kind of professionals (some more, some less) if you fail on what you promised to the promoter - you'r out. it's just that easy. oh btw, if a promoter was getting pissed of an unprofessional vj or dj or even bar stuff the guy coming after you has an harder life and needs even more to proof his skills...

cheers

[many2]

you will never be able to convince everyone to raise their price.
you will never be able to create an international union of VJs and legally force clubs to hire unionized VJs

If you must raise the bar, and the price, do it for yourself. I have done it for myself and never ever regretted it.

[unjulation]

i dont know if its just me but part of the atraction of working within clubs, festi's and the like is the whole "wild west lawlessness" that is part and parcel of the scean as a whole - to me it's all about sink or swim, and its up to you and what you do that matters, not what a law says or a union etc, and its up to me personaly to sucseed or fail, to me thats far more honest to reality as a whole

[devonmiles]

for christ sake! this was about the MINIMUM and not the regular fee. of course you cant make a living of it when youre giggin for 100 bucks all the time. of course you can make a living when you charge 400 and plus most the time. that doesnt mean that you always get the 400 cause there are sometimes reasons to play for less.
the limit functions twice: first, when you after some years realize that you cant exceed 100/150 bucks the night then you definitely know you are in wrong business.
second: having the limit in mind you can say:
I NEVER play for less than 100. NORMALY I play for more.
for this SPECIAL occasion I will consider to gig for a negotiable fee of 100/150 plus.
sure, no one can establish a convention for limits/fees but we can raise awareness for the worth of work. this is a strong community. it is attended by a majority of beginners, semiprofessionals and professionals, who follow the discussions carefully. so everything discussed eventually has an impact in the real world.

[julez]

there seems to be a lot of dj=vj comparisons here so may i ask,

do djs have a minimum fee? cos i have never even hear my (minorly successful) dj friends talk about bottomfeeders. And it sure as hell MUST happen in the dj business somewhere

[DFUNC]

True. Same like with VJ-Ing. You have some heros getting paid well and a lot of medium people who make their way through contacts (sometimes earning more, sometimes less) and a lot of wannabees. For me thats okay. I found my place.

[dreamteck]

Originally posted by sakamoto
a lot of times people in the clubs don't even care about the screens, even when the visuals are really dope.

they ALWAYS care if the visuals include crazy effects on the dancefloor.

The floor is abuzz when i'm near the action waving my arms like a looney and gesturing the babes to put on a few moves.

They scream and blow kisses and flaunt their assets. In short they very much care what's on the screen, because it's themselves they see... sexy women love this... By understanding this i have FINALLY found my own style of VJ'ing and the promoters and club management get really excited when they see the dancefloor waving arms around going nutz being loud. (The Dj's also feeds of this energy which makes them enjoy their mixing even moreso)

will be doing a few gigs in Greece at the end of the year, and hope to captivate the dancefloors there ! :love2:

Live feed VJ'ing is where it's at. Didn't take me long to work this out... but it's a lot of work and your energy levels need to be very high to keep things interesting and different for the duration of the night :yep:

[dreamteck]

Originally posted by DFUNC
You have some heros getting paid well

I happily endorse this comment 100% .... and then some.

[blitheAKA]

Good stuff.......money!
There seem several different threads running here:
1.The idea of the lone VJ having to/enjoying the freedom of making their own way in the big wide world.
2. The idea of some sort of Union Rules to enforce minimum rates.
The idea of the TV industry is quite good to keep in mind. Yhe rates here have emerged by consensus over time, everyone more or less agrees.
A sense of 'union rates' eventually emerged, but only after the market was established.
A VJ union is simply a non starter until the marketplace is big enough.
Nor will common practice really until the crowd complain if there are NOT visuals!
It's need that drives all this after all, and the self interest of promoters is exactly the same as the performers.
On the other hand, we need to balance this ruthless, Darwinian individualism with the sense of community that has always been part of this. Creating a sense of 'the scene' will be a big part of creating an awareness in both promoters and punters.

On the one hand, establishing a name, like any artist or DJ is part of it, but only when there are standards within the scene to compare, say, the dreaded 'bottom feeders' with a few downloaded clips with ppl who have spent ages creating something unique.

The question then is, How Can We Raise The Profile Of The Scene? So that yer average punter will expect and demand visuals, and high quality visuals at that!

Anyone got any ideas?

Also, I wonder how Anyone's VJ Agency is working out? Comments?


Greg
SUBLIME

[deve807]

the post from blitheAKA sublime was so comprehensive that there is not much more i can add - it seems to me that a vj has to 'prove his worth' in ticket sales to convince a promoter to meet the extra cost - although over a certain size crowd visuals are a 'given' part of the entertainment - paying work and hence rates to charge would therefore seem to be directly related to the size of the venue, as a small venue cannot make enought to pay dj's , bar staff etc and a vj on top as they have a maximum profit available from ticket sales
thus it might be easier to identify potential work by the size of the venue/number of tickets on sale in the first place and price accordingly - accepting maybe that some jobs are more as a profile raising excesise than money making
i also think however that you should ALWAYS ask for expenses at least - never pay to gig (unless you are just starting out and the gig has big promotional potential or you want to test the set /performance)
another alternative may be to negotiate a percentage of the gate money (if you can)

however respect to you all as you have to be artists,technicians and run and promote a business just to perform ! talk about undervalued !
:nod: :nod: :nod:

[klemen]

OK, let me tell you how our team (4people) work and get paid.

We have two video projectors, two videowalls on aluminium frames with legs (2x3m), 3 laptops, playstation, 2 svhs video recorders, Panasonic video mixer, dvd player...

Where ever we come we have to do evrithing, from hanging the videowalls to mounting the projectors.... and we get paid about 250eu.

If you knew how much it the cheapest video projector, video wall, gas....you knew how much we have to work to bought a new projector.

So, I think the VJ-s from a specific country have to get together and give a minimum price for a VJ without equipement and for a team of VJ-s with all equipement.

[akira_k]

You surely got a load of equipment there and do a lot of work, specially setting it all up. Now if you only charge 250 euro, it's actually your problem and your consideratin of how much YOU value YOUR work.

I think each one has to come to its own conclusions regarding the matter, really.

[klemen]

We all love our work, and that's the only way to get the work.
VJ scene here in Slovenian is very young and party orgnizers don't give a lot attention to video animations.
But the scene is growing, and the prices are going up slowly. In last year the organizers also knew a bit who's good and who don't care a lot.

[videoteque]

But even if they think they are worth 1000?, if nobody pays them that cash, what should they do???

Start a rental company!!! :P

[akira_k]

Originally posted by videoteque
But even if they think they are worth 1000?, if nobody pays them that cash, what should they do??? Depends

If you REALLY think you are worth 1000 Euro, and the promoter won't pay, it would be best not to do the gig.

If NOBODY wants to pay them that cash it could be one of many reasons, not just "the promoter is arse he won't pay me what I want". I would go to step 1 and really reconsider, "Am I worth 1000 Euro?"

Obviously is hard to stay firm with your price tag if you have to do a living but most people I see here do not depend upon VJing only to get their monthly income, so I don't see no reasoning in putting down gigs if they don't pay what you think you deserve.

And wih "value yur work yourself" I really mean that you shoudl analize the situation, your skills, tiime consumed, everything, as to get to a fair price that s what your work is worth.

[videoteque]

I am FOR turning down gigs if they are not paid (enough). But sometimes one must accept jobs for little money if the situation is little money or nothing... How do you know when they don't give you money because they don't want to and when they don't give you money because they don't have it??

Of course 1000+ people paying to enter in a club with expensive drinks, if you don't get paid, they are screwing you. But it is not always so easy to know...

[KillingFrenzy]

Make a new set of rules for every gig.

I've only gotten happy with my pricing by throwing the generalized rulebook out the window and dealing with each situation as it comes up.

I ask the person what they want, and what kind of budget they're looking at. If they want a price first, I give them a cookie cutter rate example. Once I know what they want, I compare it with what I want and come up with a solution that meets both peoples needs.

The important thing is to get everything worked out and in writing/email before the event so that nobody is surprised and the terms of the deal don't change. The only time I get irritated is when people change their expectations/requirements after you define the contract.

[sketchyj]

my strategy is to accept whatever money is offered happily for the first gig, then go way above and beyond what they are expecting....after you blow them away then it is easier to talk about more money for the next time
If it is a one time thing, i would decide differently...like a corporate event, then for sure get the right amount of $ to begin with, but for a rave i would do the first one cheap because it's a foot in the door with the promoters.
Also, for me just starting out, i wouldn't accept anything less than about $20 an hour...that's starting to seem really low to me though. I'm doing my 2nd gig at this club this friday and i'm going to tell them i want double that.

[akira_k]

Originally posted by KillingFrenzy
I've only gotten happy with my pricing by throwing the generalized rulebook out the window and dealing with each situation as it comes up. Got to agre with this too, not all venues are teh same.

[eduzal]

this thread seems to me universal. we have the same problem here in s?o paulo. there?s always someone doing the job for far less than you would do. sometimes they do for free because they are beginners that need a chance to emerge in the scene. it sucks, but it?s real.

i did an interview last week that there was this question about respect for the vj work and the recognition as an artist. the point is that there are some people in positions of power that don?t respect no one as persons nonetheless as profesisonals. they think that paying someone to do a job is like stealing from his potential profit.

in a past post someone said about a vj union. and i think the solution is to build a union, yes. the problems of the category are the same all over the world. thats what we see/read in the forums.

[DFUNC]

As I said before somewhere:
You have the same problem in DJing. In every town with more than 10.000 citizen you will find young DJs that would love to work for free. Just to DJ. And maybe they arent even that bad.

The special problem with VJing is that a lot promoters (if you only want to talk about VJing in clubs) are not able to judge in advance if a VJ is good or unexperienced.
Thats why I always take the promoter aside on my first gig for a few minutes and "educate" them a bit. Tell them the risks of an unexperienced VJ, etc.
Usually the promoter are thankful for that, and develop a releationship to you/me.

Whatever. I gotta go to a marriage now. Luckily not my own. :P

[holly]

Contraversy:

A union cuts two ways: it is an organization to force better working conditions from employers, but it is also an organization that prevents newbies from working and gigging and stealing jobs. Are we really ready to stand up and prevent new VJs from joining the ranks? How do we enforce? how do we punish? And who gets to set the standards for entry into the club?

[many2]

some more contraversy :

Are you ready to pay a fee to be a part of the union ? It's going to take a lot of people to work directly for the union to organize things all over the world - and someone has to pay for the work, and those are union's members.

Are you ready to get paid less ? Unions are also fixing maximum fees, not just minimum. After years of hard works chances are you will be doing good money for your work - what if the union ask you to reduce your fees ?

Have you ever worked with a unionised team of techies ? Sometime it's ok but I remember quite a few horror stories, all over north america. I remember I wasn't allowed to focus a projector during the techies lunch at one place. At another place it took the techies like a whole day to install 2 projectors. Unions are sometime good excuses to enforce a policy of "less work" or even "almost no work" in some venues - I would hate it if the same was going to happen to VJs.

There is only one thing I would appreciate about something like a union : we could build an official AVIT union and organise a big party each year where we would give up prizes in different categoies, like the academy awards. After seeing crap after crap in all the VJing contests I have heard of, maybe it's time to take care of talent recognition ourselves and give awards to those who deserve them. To be able to participate, you would have to pay a yearly fee. We would also be able to create a yearly book containing the contact information of each and every member - like a VJ catalog.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by many2

we could build an official AVIT union and organise a big party each year where we would give up prizes in different categoies, like the academy awards

i tried to organise exactly that at AVIT brighton and was met with a groaning indifference

[DrEskaton]

my take on this.

the price of being in a creative industry is constantly competing with young eager people who are willing to work for free, some of whom are very good.

There's no point winging about it, it's exactly the same in dj'ing, musicians, the film industry, graphic design etc etc.

To get into working on films some people work for free for six months fulltime while working night part time jobs. Sometimes they are exploited but sometimes they get the experience they need and go on to do very well and get paid very well.

there's no point calling people "bottom feeders" who will do gigs for little or no money, that's just elitist and crap. Everyone here started doing off doing free gigs.

if you have original creative content and can make a name for yoruself, you will be able to ask a fair price, but yes some of the time a promoter will take a new kid willing to work for free. deal with it.

if you can't handle this you're in the wrong field, become a tradesman if you want fixed minimum fees. unions and fixed fees just do not work in any creative field. the solution is to make sure your work is better than other peoples and stands out from the crowd, not putting up artificial barriers to entry.

edit: yes I know there is unions (and guilds etc) in the film industry and actors but in my opnion they are a problem not a solution, they lock out new people unless you join their secret club with the special handshake and sometimes frustrate creativity with stupid rules. eg Robert Roderiguez had to quit the Directors Guild of America to make "Sin CIty" the way he wanted as the DGA would not allow co directing credits. There is another innovative project called Sanctuary that wants to make a "remixable film", that encourages people to take it and hack it into other forms. THey had massive problems with the actors guild in Australia that would not let them do it even though the individual actors supported the project and wanted to do it.

a union will never work, when people turn up to a party just to see your visuals then you can ask a good fee, your trick it to be that good (not saying I'm that good, but of course that's what we all wish was the case yes?)

[spaceman]

one tip:
When I do a job for less than my usual rate I write the invoice like:
normal rate - discount = total

It works great cos the client figures he got a great deal but that it won't be the same low price everytime.

[eduzal]

this is doing great discusison.

the point with the unions. there are positive and negative points; specially the vices of the existing unions and the so called protection they offer to their associates and the abuses this associates comits performing their jobs, like many2 reported in his post. i agree with him. and agree with dr. eskaton, too.

surely there should be some kind of union, association, whatever... of the VJ class. to deal collectively with common issues because the trouble we face are the same. i believe that if we have to compete we should compete in art, not in price.

we are involved in showbusiness. there are a lot of people that wants to get into this market, people will do whatever it takes to get in. i don?t see people working for free to work in a bank, or an insurance company or any other job that doesn?t deal with creativity.

other thing is sure, we must get more vjs around the world to strenghten the scene, to let new talent bloom. make the profession worthy to promoters, club owners, clients, etc. so they must hire a VJ to make a great party. make them understand that a party without images ain?t a party.

[Aalto]

As eduzal said, it is a really interesting (and useful) discussion.
But the main problem is , when we're talking about minimum fees, to precise which country is concerned. I read a few posts before that Kleme and his crew are paid 250? a night, to bring the screens, the projectors, to install then to perform. Of course, for someone living in the US, or in western europe, it seems quite few for all the efforts needed. But i also read they were from Slovenia, and even if i don't know the country very well, i'm quite sure that 250? there are not the "same" 250? we can earn in US, in UK, even in France. I think it's not a problem of "how much they value their work", but how much, in this place, in these conditions, they can ask for it. This is the same thing if you do a very little gig with 100 people, you can't be paid a thousand bucks. To define a minimum Vj fee, i guess we'd have to define the minimum fees in every country / group of countries. Quite complicated...:nod:

[WordVirus23]

wow... for having one post here, you really summed up the problem of fees.
....obviously spent some time in the trenches ;)
..j...

Originally posted by Aalto
As eduzal said, it is a really interesting (and useful) discussion.
But the main problem is , when we're talking about minimum fees, to precise which country is concerned. I read a few posts before that Kleme and his crew are paid 250? a night, to bring the screens, the projectors, to install then to perform. Of course, for someone living in the US, or in western europe, it seems quite few for all the efforts needed. But i also read they were from Slovenia, and even if i don't know the country very well, i'm quite sure that 250? there are not the "same" 250? we can earn in US, in UK, even in France. I think it's not a problem of "how much they value their work", but how much, in this place, in these conditions, they can ask for it. This is the same thing if you do a very little gig with 100 people, you can't be paid a thousand bucks. To define a minimum Vj fee, i guess we'd have to define the minimum fees in every country / group of countries. Quite complicated...:nod:

[eduzal]

someday this conversation should give us an awful script for a film about the rise and fall of a vj star....
like this....

boy lives in a small country town, he always watched cartoons, started to draw, started to animate on paper, like drawing on the edges of his school books pages and flipping the pages just to see the animation. he always feels the need to do something with his talent, but where he lives, he got no chance at all to express himself.

someday he decides to go to the big city, where all the dogs are tied with sausages, and money grows in trees. he tries to start his career, but nobody gives him a chance. all that?s left for him is to be a waitress while attends an art school, lives on minimum wage plus tips, lives in a crappy flat et all, but he knows someday he?s gonna be a star, someday he?ll get a break in the showbusiness, he?ll be a top star VJ hero. the only thing he can?t stand are the costumers pinching his butt.

a certain day he get his chance, you know this guy after all is a nerdy kind a guy, so he never leaves his notebook. he?s in a club and the top dj didn?t show up the owners are desperate. they need a damn vj or the crowd will smash the club to bits. he got his chance, he shows his notebook, he got all the softwares. they give him a chance, and he totally kicks ass. he doesn?t want any money at that time, he just wanted the oportunity to show his work.

so he became a vj, and after some time, he became a legend. he got payd US$ 10.000 for a gig. he got stuck in dope, he hang around with the top models, he is now part of the glamour of the entertainment world. paparazzis follow him all around. people comes from miles around just to see him play the flics. nobody cares about the dj, just the vj.

i?m quite lazy right now to develop some lifechanging crisis that our VJ hero must face(drugs always work). like he looses his touch, or contact with that boy that once just loved to draw some cartoon animation, or he is just tired of the emptyness of the showbusiness, maybe he get tired of touring around, every hotel room looks the same, every super model looks the same, the drugs just don?t taste good like they used to, anything, or all of them togheter.

we could end the story with our guy after sometime decide to take a break of this world, start to study the caballah, maybe he start to meet with international leaders to work for peace in the world, end with endemic hunger in Africa, take part in some anti-landmines campaign, save the whales or any other humanitarian causes, do gigs sometimes, have a few divorces, some dope. and life goes on while other vjs rise to be stars and deal with the life he just left behind.

well, thats it. i want my part played by madonna....

[Kyle]

:jump2:

[WordVirus23]

I had a great mental visual for these scenes as I read them.

vj hero sitting in all these different locales, yet in the same place in the frame.

same style could be done in a sex scene w/ all the models morphing between eachother.... or have all the models slowly fade, until they're just vectorized masks.

MMmm... I need to get to work on this weekend's shows.

Originally posted by eduzal
someday this conversation should give us an awful script for a film about the rise and fall of a vj star....
like this....
maybe he get tired of touring around, every hotel room looks the same, every super model looks the same

[asterix]

Guys at the end of the day it comes down to you and how you sell yourself. Theres always going to be a first timer almost willing to pay to do a set.

You have to find out how to 'add value' to your product. Once you do that - ask the price you want, and you'll get it.
HERES A TESTED SALES STRATEGY
Regardless of what profession you're in - learning to sell is critical to your sucess. And don't feel you have to be a salesperson to sell:
- How many times have you been asked in a restaurant for desert or coffee - thats an upsell. Mcdonalds can train 11 year olds to do that. Would you pay extra for an edirol product if you didn't see the value of its features and benefits? In fact we wouldn't buy anything if they werent sold on how much valuable it is to them. And when you build that value - you raise the price we're willing to pay for it.

So here's my suggestion for getting the price you want. First of all - let them do the selling for you, avoid talking price until last. Ask them questions on what is important to them, let them tell you whats important. i.e:
- So, is this going to be a big event?
(ever heard a promoter down talk himself. Good, you're awakening his excitment for the event)
- so will you be supplying hardware/ content or would you like that included in the price (this is obvious but its important you remind him you are bringing these).
- what sort of visuals do you see fitting in with this event. The standard paterny type stuff. Or more unique cutting edge content? (guess what they're answer is - notice how Im asking questions that will only return the answer I want)

- I need at least three hours set up time and three hours to break down. How many hours performance do you have in mind? (you've just made them aware that your job requires alot of work)

-I've been integrating a live camera feed into my set and the crowd absolutely loves it. Should I include my live camera setup? (upsell)

Ok theres a band of other questions you'd love to ask them. These are just suggestions. Now the customer hasn't just asked you to do a vj set - he's asked you for the best visuals, $15000 in equipment hire, 12 hours of labour and something unique in the set. You think he's going to dare ask it for $200?
I hope you've been writting this down in huge lettering right in front of him so he can see all the value you're offering him. If you're really on the ball you've pulled out the laptop and shown him sample of your folio - and some pictures of your recent/larger events. Doing this builds a picture in his mind - and that is key to selling sucessfully.
OK, assuming you've really built the excitement into your discussion - you're ready to ask for the business.
Use a closing statement like this one:
So, Mr Promoter -
this event looks like it going to be a big one, and you want some pretty high quality visuals.
I'll bring along my full hardware rig, my high quality visual set and personally ensure everything is setup properly.
That will give you the bling bling visuals your event needs. You do want the bling bling visuals right?
(He'll answer yes pretty excitedly)
OK (refer to your list), we'll do it for $XXX. Should I put the booking under your name or the venues?

Its really that simple. Practise it. Try it. Win with it. It sounds a little sheepish - but believe me the guys now a full believer in the value of your product - and you're getting paid for it :)

[VJFranzK]

that's good advice. :yep:

[Kyle]

Nice approach Asterix...:)

[simot]

good, sound, practical advice asterix. :yep:

[dreamteck]

good1 asterix, thnx for that ! :)

[Aalto]

Nice explanation about "how to sell your visuals.." :)

But i would add something: i think it's not always so simple, even if the technique is good. I'd even say that it's not always the good way to get well paid (i'm talking about what i experienced in France, but maybe it's different in the US, or in Australia - maybe vjing is more popular in these countries, i don't know - anyway..).
If the gig is the launching party for the new Playstation (i take this example cause i'm gonna do it :o ), this technique will surely work, because, in this situation, you can be sure that the promoter (and the company) will have enough money to pay you well, if you convice him by showing him a nice demo. This is commercial first. If you show good stuff, the company you play for can potentially get a lot of benefits, cause YOU gave a nice image of their product, of their company. I don't think they really care about your creativity, your mixing technique, or your artistic abilities. The aim is to sell the product.... by selling your visuals.
I think it's just important to keep that in mind, when you play for corporate events, and not forget that creativity must stay the most important part of the work, even if you have to do some tricks to get well paid.
Unfortunately, promoters who really care about the creative side of the job are, most of time, the ones who dont have a lot of money to spend - which doesn't mean that they dont do great things, and really nice events... ;)

[eduzal]

you wanna know how to sell yourselves, learn with the master

great (http://www.tarmo.fi/arc/developers.mpeg)
much greater (http://www.tarmo.fi/arc/monkeydance.mpeg)

he knows it all....

[neoteo]

lol , microsoft slaves , very nice :D

i wish i was there claping

[asterix]

By the way - after writting that reply I jumped in my car and headed off to pitch to a new nightclub operator.
Everything was a sinch following the rules applied above. I turned the invitation for a one off thursday nighter into a strategy for doing half a dozen concept events (not just visuals). The only problem was I approached him with a DJ friend of mine who started mouthing off about doing the first one FREE.:grrr:

Lesson 2: Always discuss things in full with your partner before going in!

BY THE WAY ALTO
This was a small club that has barely filled itself with more than 100 people (YET) and will hold a capacity of 900. This guy was tight arse of the century - they don't even want to pay DJ's (what a putz!). But I'm still going to get the price I want, to give them the crowd they want.

[Aalto]

The videos are incredible - and this guy's so ridiculous.:D A really good illustration of the "extreme" business side of things, with this "microsoft brainwashing". Drives me mad :scared:
If i have to do this to convince a promoter one day, i'd better stop to veejay right now :D

[Aalto]

The brainwashing worked on me, i've done some researches to find who's that freak, and I found a nice little vj style remix of his interventions :

You can find the video there (http://www.flamingmailbox.com/maccomedy/movies/balmer.html)


:D

[VJFranzK]

that ape dance is weirder than the Dean Scream any day ;)

[eduzal]

exxxceleeent

[Pandora]

Ok.....definetly a good thread....
Gotta throw in my bit...

1. Fees are always best approached
individually.....based on your clients
needs and yours....

2. You have to be honest with yourself
about why your doing this and act
accordingly.....




For me I approach it the same way as DJ'ing......(which ive done longer).....
I decided long ago that what i want from a gig is to be able to put on a good show and feel some enthusiasm
from the people i play for......
Money is totally secondary and sometimes unneccessary in the
right circumstances.

Decide what your goals are and dont compromise.....
Thats all I can say.....
I may be broke as everyone else.
And my successes may be fewer.....but
My successes are bigger than most of my peers and they feel alot better
than a bill getting paid....
So it does pay off.