The Massive Video Hardware Feedback Experiment [Archive]

LEVLHED

11th February 2005, 03:22 PM

so, sprung from the ramblings and brainstorming of this thread (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=5524) comes my event for Avit UK, Birmingham.
'The Massive Video Hardware Feedback Experiment"
The premise is simple. Lets have everyone bring in their mixers/effects units/eq's/etc to put together the biggest feedback loop EVER.
As it stands now, I'll be coordinating the experiment on Friday, April 29th in a 5.69meter by 5.77meter room in the "Old Library" at The Custard Factory.. It will be run ALL DAY, from about 10am to 9pm. Please come take part and we could go into the record books! I've applied to Guiness to be considered as "biggest video feedback loop in the world" :) I won't hear from them for several weeks yet though.

You can take part by bringing in hardware, necessary signal cables, and appropriate power cables. Be prepared to run in PAL, have at least enough cable/adapters to make one pass in and out of your kit, and be able to plug into that funky UK power thing (if you can spare an outlet strip for more taps as well, it would be a bonus!). Ideally, you will be able to leave your kit in place for awhile. I am prepared to stay there all day to watch over it, and we should have masking tape/marker to label everything as yours to make sure you get it back.

As of now there will be some tables and one projector/screen there. I hope to use a camera/rescreen loop to start the chain (anybody have a tube camera and tripod?), and just keep adding bits as it comes in. (yes, I'll have the rebelle there too). Hope to sort some sort of recording device/media as well for posterity.

Oh, and rather important to this experiment. I will allow laptops/computers into the loop, but ONLY as an effects device. There will be no pre-rendered material allowed. I think you understand what I mean.
and, there may be more stipulations added depending on what kind of feedback I may or may not get from Guiness. They may impose rules on the setup in order to be considered for a record.

Hope to see you there!

cat

11th February 2005, 03:28 PM

Looking forward to it, I've got an MX10 and a circuit bent MX1 to add to the equation, it will be mayhem!
To be honest just my 2 create a rather unsync'd chaos all on their own, what the full cascade will do .....!!!!!****

LEVLHED

11th February 2005, 03:59 PM

ooooh, circuit bent MX1? cool!

PilotX

11th February 2005, 04:53 PM

:D I'm also looking forward to this - and throwing 2 Sony Colour Correctors in the mix (they both have phase shifters on them which produces interesting feedback, and 2 tone colour correction) - I'll try to get round to writing a review of them for vjc so you have an idea of what is coming..
also have mixers (mx-1, ave-5, v4) that could be thrown in, but no interesting circuit bent stuff.

alangeering

11th February 2005, 05:05 PM

and my axe

fluchtpunkt

11th February 2005, 07:50 PM

i'll be in, ...braking the rules doing software/hardware feedback.

sleepytom

11th February 2005, 08:45 PM

entrancer
chromascope
fairlight cvi
V4
AV5
dvm1000
effecTV
a couple of matrix switchers and routers

LEVLHED

11th February 2005, 08:58 PM

kallisti

11th February 2005, 09:39 PM

wish i could be part of this...oh well...make sure you take pics (and vids!!)

EYKON

11th February 2005, 09:49 PM

:jump2:

just love to get involved with a PROPER art installation!!!!!! i can bring an mx12, VCR(TIME LAPSE), about one mile of BNC cabling complete with many through and 't' couplers, digital and analogue camera's(to add more filth) and (my fovourite) a de-tuned tv, a couple of moniters(always handy), pmac lappy(for more filth), a mini plex(switcher), multiplex(another loop of dirt), possibly a radical new piece of effect software, which inter acts with both video and audio, which is on a beta (but i have to check with the coders if they mind it being used as a matter of respect, and also figure out how the bloody thing works), oh yeah and a mop and bucket to clean up all that filth afterwards!!
please, please, let me in.
EYKON
out.
:yep:

PilotX

12th February 2005, 08:56 AM

mm yeah - we also have a non-tbc 4x4 matrix we can add and I've found an old analogue video cleaner thing that I have no idea if it works - a camlink VMX5500 which has contrast saturation and sharpness, as well as an inverse feature :D

InsideUsAll

12th February 2005, 09:05 AM

Is this gonna be just hardware?

Really looking forward to it :)

Edited to add: whoops i just read lev's first post fully and spotted the bit on puters for effects -cool :)

LEVLHED

12th February 2005, 01:57 PM

wow!
Its only been a day since I posted this and theres already an impressive array of items threatened!
Truly amazing. I'm very very happy to see I'm joined in my enthusiasm. The relative success of this experiment depends entirely on the participation of the vidiots at avit. I really appreciate everyones help and can hardly wait to see the gluttonous display of video hardware:jump:

many2

14th February 2005, 05:44 AM

Wow I wish I could be there !
If it goes well I suggest it should become a tradition for all AVIT events :)

LEVLHED

14th February 2005, 12:06 PM

heh heh, yeah I was thinking that too. Each AVIT could be another attempt for "the record" :)

Eon

14th February 2005, 11:49 PM

Wow! i found the start for my thesis!!!!!

for LEVLHED: could i do the official documentary of the massive video hardware feedback experiment?

i'm a filmaker and my thesis is about video feedback
;)
...so what's u think about?

asterix

15th February 2005, 01:58 AM

Actually - I'd really enjoy a DVD copy of it. Sounds like some crazy feedbacks to surf.

LEVLHED

15th February 2005, 02:27 AM

Eon, I don't see why not. It would be really great to have someone take charge of documenting! I know I would be horrible at it.

asterix, funny you should mention that! I was actually just considering the idea of creating a DVD of the output to sell as a fund raiser for our favorite message board.:) I will look into this more and see how feasible such an endeavor would be. I would think that one way or another, you will be able to get a copy.

juba

15th February 2005, 09:10 AM

wow this sounds like a lot of fun :P :D i would love to see some video :)

PilotX

15th February 2005, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by LEVLHED
Eon, I don't see why not. It would be really great to have someone take charge of documenting! I know I would be horrible at it.

asterix, funny you should mention that! I was actually just considering the idea of creating a DVD of the output to sell as a fund raiser for our favorite message board.:) I will look into this more and see how feasible such an endeavor would be. I would think that one way or another, you will be able to get a copy.

:D
I think thats a great idea - someone must have a decent DVD recorder they could lend for the day to record the output .. (there's probably a better way, but at least like this we could just get some DVDs duplicated)

wellREDman

21st February 2005, 11:00 AM

I'll bring one (maybe two) Perception PVR's : not to play back material, but to use as samplers, ie record some of the total feedback then play it back in ....

also i can bring a dvd recorder

syzygy

24th February 2005, 10:53 AM

Sampling the output and feeding it back it will be great!

We definitely have to record to DVD too. This experiment should be a goldmine for those who like their content weird...

asterix

14th March 2005, 11:30 PM

April isn't coming fast enough :)
Any updates? I'd love to see a circuit diagram of how all this shit will link together.

sleepytom

15th March 2005, 03:15 AM

:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

PilotX

15th March 2005, 10:10 AM

:D some kind of stopmotion circuit diagram program would be needed.. but I doubt anyone is going to be able to construct the diagram.,.. I reckon it'll run something like this:

right .. so vcr, goes into v4. that goes into mx1, mx10, colour corrector. colour corrector goes into vcr, v4, mx1, mx10. mx1 into colour corrector, v4 mx10. mx10 into mx1 v4. all via the fairlight cvi. and a wierd video processor. and thne back into the v4. via another v4. which itself is connected to the original mx1 and two others .. ermmm.. where did this cable go again?

LEVLHED

15th March 2005, 12:18 PM

heh heh, yeah something like that I reckon! There won't be any way to diagram it now because its all pretty much going to be made up on the spot :) It all depends on who brings what when.
and yes, its not quite coming quick enough, is it?

still haven't heard back from Guiness either.

many2

15th March 2005, 12:34 PM

I would suggest to bring numbered stickers - one for each unit in the feedback loop. It will help to document the event : you can then simply make a list on paper (or in excel) and fill the description of each unit. It will also automatically give you the number of units in the loop. It might also be a "proof" of your participation : look at the "#39" sticker on my Chromascope2000, my machine was just before Tom's delay unit (#40) and after Lev's Rebelle (#38) ;)

PilotX

15th March 2005, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by many2
I would suggest to bring numbered stickers - one for each unit in the feedback loop. It will help to document the event : you can then simply make a list on paper (or in excel) and fill the description of each unit. It will also automatically give you the number of units in the loop. It might also be a "proof" of your participation : look at the "#39" sticker on my Chromascope2000, my machine was just before Tom's delay unit (#40) and after Lev's Rebelle (#38) ;)

that could be good.. but the problem I Can see is that the chromascope will also be after the rebelle, which is also before the delay unit .. and in between itself ;)

plus it's going to change throughout the day.. we need some kind of motion circuit diagram program. that could be an interesting piece of video in itself.

wellREDman

15th March 2005, 01:45 PM

would it change the rules to just use a big matrix switcher?
we could plug all the ins and the outs into that then use it to try as many different combinations as time will allow?

i think it would be good to try and start a list of all the kit that will be there , for example would be good to see the same combinationn of odd boxes,using all the different models of mixer.

so as well as the odd stuff, we'd need to see 1 high end mx/ave
one low end mx/ave(preferably with the luma Mod)
one videonics mx
an edirol
a hama
and a crossfour if anyone's ever bought one

cat

15th March 2005, 02:06 PM

Nahh
Chaos should rule!
Mixers have more than one output, they should loop off into as many other mixers as possible, what would be better is a shit load of tellys so you can monitor as many different points in the beautifull spaghetti as possible, 1 output is not enough! There should be no first fixture. All loops should be recursive!
A matrix or 2 would be good just for on the fly repatching
Hope you've budgeted for a lot of cables, cant see anyone getting any back they bring, so really all should come from one source, even with anal labelling!
See whether Guiness will go for the worlds biggest knot of BNC cables as well.
In fact what about saving all those dodgy leads you've got knocking around for some lead wiggling action as well! Or a hacksaw for some distructive cable modifactions later on?
Me want break things Ugghh!

PilotX

15th March 2005, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by cat
Nahh
Chaos should rule!
All loops should be recursive!
A matrix or 2 would be good just for on the fly repatching

In fact what about saving all those dodgy leads you've got knocking around for some lead wiggling action as well! Or a hacksaw for some distructive cable modifactions later on?
Me want break things Ugghh!

hehe.. we will have a 4x4 bnc matrix with no tbc available for the day..

we also hacked 2 svid cables together, taking the luma from one source and chroma from another producing an interesting mix of the two, kind of like hue transfer mode.. but this was done by just cutting an svid cable and pinching the bare wires together, nothing proper.. could be fun.

I agree that all the cables should come from a single source (apart from power cables of course). but we could need more than anyone could possibly provide...

LEVLHED

15th March 2005, 03:02 PM

my supplying all the cables simply isn't an option. no budget for that!
this project is DIY to the core and depends entirely on what people bring into it. Bringing your own cords in is a must! I'll be using a hi-tech method for unit/cord identification involving masking tape and a sharpie. I don't see there being any trouble with people getting their cords back...assuming they can untagle them from the rats nest thats sure to form :O
and yes, in addition to your video equipment and cords, bringing in a video moniter to tap into different part of the chain would make things even more spectacular. I realize what a pain transporting all of this stuff can be though so I don't expect too many.
I'm still completely amazed at the amount of enthusiasm for this project.

Esotic

15th March 2005, 05:37 PM

Blending multiple projections in realtime in a web of choas sounds quite fantastic to me.

I would also suggest putting multiple recording devices into the loop to catch the signal as it flows through the chain/web.

Hmmm... I may have to look into doing something like this with the local video geeks collective. So who's gonna start the "Feedback Collection" video DVD series? ;)

Best of luck,

-Esotic

Esotic

15th March 2005, 05:42 PM

The real trick with Video Feedback seems to be very slight modulation around static sweet spots. Regular degrees that are a division of a 90% multiple seem to do well (like 45% = 90% / 2, 60 degrees = 180/3, 72% = 360/5, etc).

I just felt like it had to be said,

-Esotic

Excalibas

7th April 2005, 05:31 PM

So, have you done this already?

I would love to see some fotos.

LEVLHED

7th April 2005, 06:00 PM

its running all day Friday, April 29th

if all goes well, and I can figure it out, I hope to at least have a webpage with automatically-updating stills from the output as it looks when it passes thru my laptop (via elektronika)

neoteo

7th April 2005, 10:34 PM

:jump:

you all just sounded like kids playing lego

its a great idea for a video instalation , if many people bring stuff you will be able to make a huge space ship cokpit ambience.

like NEBUCHADNEZZAR

http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/AMX_Matrix/images_matrix/nebpic9s.jpg

asterix

7th April 2005, 11:05 PM

Hmmm yeah I guess a circuit diagram is a bit of an ask. :crazyeyes:
But hows it going to work. Is everyone going to be mixing all at once (couldn't you white that out pretty easily?)? Or only one unit at a time mixing; while one unit is unplugged and another patched in (I'd hate to be the guy accidentally unplugging the master into its 10th hour).?

By the way - what graphic/ image/ lightsource are you going to use to kick off the loop?:

LEVLHED

8th April 2005, 02:28 AM

thats why its called an "experiment" :)
Its safe to assume this has never quite been done on this scale before.
We're just going to have to see what works and what doesn't.
"tinker this, tweak that, oooh what happens when you do this to everything? what happens when its just this? now just the ladies..and now all the dudes. left hand! behind the back!"

mwuaahahahaahahahhaaa

not sure what will be the start yet. have see what resources are available.

vjvishnu

19th April 2005, 11:00 AM

Yea, it will work without a light source, if you tweak it right but its just not the same as waving a glow stick in front of it or some twinkily lights, a lava lamp, dancers dressed in neon glowing strings etc.

Just not as pretty.

Video feedback is an interactive immersive art form so you should let people dance in the projections (with lights).

Have you thought of bringing some music?

I'll try to bring some fairy lights...

cat

19th April 2005, 12:42 PM

I'm most upset, Im not going to be able to make it now, I've had work elsewhere comeup. Please document it well, I was dying to see it all, good luck

cat

vjpixylight

19th April 2005, 02:21 PM

should be most interesting..
as far as recording this, well Feedback is so temporal, and the best parts of this probably won't get on tape or DVD:(
that said, the best part will be taped in memories:)
:cheers:

vjpixylight

19th April 2005, 02:35 PM

could then be incorperated in the AVit Retreat?
It would be cool to be able to at the very least screen some of the results:)

Also, Do you plan on making the audio feedback as well?
we could do that pretty easily at the retreat, and do it in the dome on the rock!

fluchtpunkt

19th April 2005, 07:27 PM

i will be giving a workshop on live video feedback. unfortunately it is currently scheduled for the same time slot as the experiment - but i hope this will get sorted out until the festival so that the workshop can take place before the experiment.
...in which case i would like to invite everybody for an open discussion and to contribute their own input. the workshop part will take about 90 mins which will leave plenty of time for discussion afterwards.

LEVLHED

20th April 2005, 01:25 PM

sorry to hear that, cat
of course I'll be doing my best to catch as much as possible on DVD. since I'll be using wellREDman's standalone dvd recorder, these DVDs will be PAL and region(?) so not sure yet how I'll go about editing/reauthoring/etc...but the goal is to condense the best bits to one DVD.
I'd think one way or another we can use some of it for the retreat project.

concerning audio, I haven't made any arrangements for audio to be used. I have been thinking of this though, it sure would be nice to at least have something to get a groove on to...but I fear its too late in the game to have avit sort it. DIY to the core then, anyone fancy bringing a powered speaker along:) also, I was a little concerned about space..thinking a soundsystem and decks and whatever might not be feasible..
really even a little boombox would be enough to create a vibe don't you think? I'm just going to deal with this once I get over there...got too much on my plate this week (so much that its even cramping my getting excited about leaving sunday!)

oh and flucht, hope they can do some fancy footwork and get things rearranged for us (looks like they are working on it already)..I'd noticed the conflict earlier too and wished a person would be able to do both!

PilotX

20th April 2005, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by LEVLHED

really even a little boombox would be enough to create a vibe don't you think? I'm just going to deal with this once I get over there...got too much on my plate this week (so much that its even cramping my getting excited about leaving sunday!)

oh and flucht, hope they can do some fancy footwork and get things rearranged for us (looks like they are working on it already)..I'd noticed the conflict earlier too and wished a person would be able to do both!

shouldn't be a problem to have a small stereo there with some music - but I Think you are right that the space should not be used up by a soundsystem/decks

we are currently looking at a couple of options to move live video feedback onto a different day, and will certainly do it - this is really my fault, I should have realised that these should be scheduled seperately..

LEVLHED

20th April 2005, 02:07 PM

well, its not as bad as it seems. don't be too hard on yourself :)
my thing runs all freakin day, so there really is time for a person to take part in both anyway.

neoteo

21st April 2005, 12:49 AM

you guys must be carefull , you might build a time machine and get sucked to the stone age ,... heheheh

happy 420 !!!!

LEVLHED

23rd April 2005, 04:15 PM

assuming I can get all the tech sorted, and the wifi connection from the room is suitable, I will have a realtime snapshot/stream html page online for those not able to attend to witness the mayhem.

I will post the link here next week if/when I get it workin

disassembler

23rd April 2005, 07:36 PM

my standalone dvd burner after too much signal fuckerry loses sync, BUT my dv camera doesn't. So I'd suggest using 2 dv cams. One PAL and one NTSC.

I've got my $$$$ ready to buy the DVD, as feedback is in my humble opinion, the most potent visuals available. Raw.

fluchtpunkt

25th April 2005, 11:28 PM

regarding the dvd:
perhaps we could record the feedback workshop as well and put some key parts on the dvd as well - as an educational goodie for newbs and non-vj people who might be interested. since i will need my camera for the feedback loop in the workshop i'd have to be able to count on someone bringing a recording device with them (camera for the workshop, vhs/dvd recorder or hd-capture for the feedback loop).

LEVLHED

26th April 2005, 12:38 PM

the dvd recorder from wellREDman is on site here, syzygy is using it for their remixTV installation until I need it friday, but we may be able to nab it for your session (assuming all parties involved don't mind) I'll ask about it..or try to sort something else for you before you get in.

regarding the feedback experiment..oooh man, its lookin good:) now theres been a 50" plasma screen added to the mix:yep: There are lots of people here looking foward to it.
I'm still working on the last pieces of the live-stream puzzle. I've got an url setup but have to figure out a suitable IP to send the info to...
the address for the stream will be
www.feedback.kicks-ass.net

vjpixylight

26th April 2005, 02:34 PM

footage of the whole setup and the live feedback being made?
if anyone has a webcam, they can do it!
go to
http://www.shareup.com/CaptureMAX-download-3136.html
and download the demo...
It will send timelpase to any server you point it too, and is done while it is happening!

Now seeing how this whole experiment comes together, that would be something to see!:)

Unfortunately this software demo only allows timelapse to run for only 30 min. so make sure a few of those with webcams have the software running at coordinated times..

:cheers: