how to avoid quality loss

[thomase]

I've been thinking about this recently:

When I capture my material shot on a 3ccd MiniDV-Cam, then edit some clips in Final Cut Express, then apply some fx in e.g. Motion, how do I avoid quality loss?
I mean, if I export a movie, it'll reemcode...
Even if I just cut out slices in Quicktime Pro, apply FX in Motion and THEN edit a whole movie together in FCE, I'll lose quality, right?
I can't save the FX-clips as uncompressed, because FCE only supports DV (I use version 1).

Or am I getting this wrong and exporting to DV means no re-encoding? :confused:
How do I avoid quality loss?

BTW: editing the whole movie in FCE first, then apply fx in Motion is NOT an option, as I'm planning a longer movie, and encoding then would prolly take weeks...

[videoteque]

Don't edit. Apply only optical effects, not software...

Or even better, don't worry so much. If you capture good footage you can tweak it in the computer and won't loose too much quality. If you want better quality, rent a Digital Betacam camcorder!!!:)

[cat]

As I understand it DV is on re-encoded when you do someting to it, ie if you jsut edit video down into clips and export DV there is no recompression, (i dont use final cut though so cant confirm this)
You could also go for a lossless codec in between, but you will need big hard drives!
I tend to edit into MJPEG or Photo Jpeg depending on what Im doing, the quality is still pretty good, and I really dont like DV artifacts It probably stems from starting video editing with a hardware Mjpeg card though!

Can you not edit FCP files in motion? Ie import a project that you've edited up but not rendered out, FX in motion and only export the footage thats Fx'd? I do that between Premiere and AfterFX sometimes.

[DrEskaton]

I've not had too much of a problem with this. I Think DV can survive one round of decompression, then reencoding no problem. So just edit in FCE, export sections to Motion (still no recompression) then do effects and drop back in the edit.

All together you footage has only been decompressed and recompressed once and it's all good.

[thomase]

well, I want to do this to create a DVD. so there is at least one more compression going on. I want to sell this DVD later, so I want to keep it at best quality. I heard though, that the new version of FCE can import MOTION projects....

still, I'd like to know how to avoid re-compression.

Is there no way to get around it?
I mean, the way dreskaton dexcibes sounds reasonable. BUT: when I edit in FCE, then apply FX in MOTION, then re-edit in FCE, that's twice encoding, isn't it?
Then, I compress to MPEG2 to burn onto a DVD...
How do the "BIG PLAYERS" go about this?
Roger: You're a compositor, right? How do other companies go about this?

[sleepytom]

BIG players (corp / broadcast) do offline / online editing so its not a problem

the best method is to ditch the dv codec and use uncompressed or a lossless codec such as 100% animation - if FCE can't do this then you need to get some better software.

DV should only be used as a source format (from dv cameras) and as a final output format (print to tape) intermediate files should use a lossless codec to maintain the best quality.

[holly]

Cat and Tom are true. The weakest point is at the start: DV codec. if you go there ONCE you have gone there and it is too late.

If you can capture from the camera via analog it is sometimes better than DV. If you can record straight to hhd and skip the cassette you will be stunned at how good it looks.... DV also has a limited colorspace and will turn chunky faster than anything, esp with FX on top.

Eventually you will have to lose:
DV
FCE

And start working with better codecs Animation or MJPEG.

Lastly, there is a way to turn on "high quality" in Apple's DV codec (in QT). It won't cure everything but it is a noticable improvement.

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by holly

If you can capture from the camera via analog it is sometimes better than DV. If you can record straight to hhd and skip the cassette you will be stunned at how good it looks.... DV also has a limited colorspace and will turn chunky faster than anything, esp with FX on top.
- note that holly is talking about capturing live from the analog outputs using a high quality capture card- when video is recorded to tape in the camera its compressed to DV - you will lose quality by capturing DV recordings via analog capture - your best bet for quality with stuff on DV tape is firewire transfer folowed by software conversion to a lossless codec.

i hope i've made this clearer rather than more confusing....

[holly]

Yes, sorry if I said it wrong. Capture directly to the harddiscdrive (not the hhd--whatever that is). Pretty impractical unless you are a diehard studio artist like me. It's just that beautiful 3-chip camera is being heldback by the DV codec. Having a good analog edit-suite is better than DV.

[thomase]

I actually thought about going straight into the computer, but then a cameramen told me "once it's digital, you lose quality going through your aanalogue outs" - I believed him. My cam doesn't even have Firewire out...
So Holly and Tom, how do you go about this?
I mean, what sort of camera do you use? Not DV?
Or to put it in other words:
Are you saying that a better capture card such as the dfg1394 or the aja kona using my 3chip DV-camera WITHOUT using the casette would give much better results?
Or are you saying that I would need a new cam anyway?

Note: I DID understand what Holly was getting at in the first place, cause I had to capture analogue from DV casette (see above) and it looked horrible...
Note2: Now that FCE supports HD (not HDTV!!!),
I think that problem will be solved with the upgrade...

[famouswhendead]

Originally posted by thomase
[B]I actually thought about going straight into the computer, but then a cameramen told me "once it's digital, you lose quality going through your aanalogue outs" - I believed him. My cam doesn't even have Firewire out...
So Holly and Tom, how do you go about this?
I mean, what sort of camera do you use? Not DV?
Or to put it in other words:
Are you saying that a better capture card such as the dfg1394 or the aja kona using my 3chip DV-camera WITHOUT using the casette would give much better results?
Or are you sayin

Firewire stays firewire... ie DV.
In most cases anyway sony dsr1500 for some reason to a encode in hardware in the machine and actually it looks crisper.
SDI outputs on panasonic DV decks are better then the DV/FW outputs.
Analog outputs / component on these same decks look better then the FW sometimes.

Apple DV codec is IMHO pretty crap.
But so long you don't do any effects in DV you do not have to reencode.

If you are wanting to get a kona the 2 is a very good deal but if you are only working with FCE it is not worth the cash.
Decklinks from BMD are a much better deal but you'll still need FCP and not FCE.

Other solution for DV edits and finishing is
http://www.automaticduck.com/

This exports your FCP timeline to AE so you can do 1:1 graphics there to keep the quality high.

Cheap FW capture box is the canopus advc100 seen it in almost every set i've been in.

[holly]

Originally posted by thomase
Are you saying that a better capture card such as the dfg1394 or the aja kona using my 3chip DV-camera WITHOUT using the casette would give much better results?
Yes! 100%

Tom will cringe that I say this, but I use a GL-1 (3chip) which does have firewire but I use the S-vid instead, going directly into an analog video capture PCI card. This gives excellent results (as excellent as S-vid and a GL-1 can get....) far better than DV. It was an investment for me a few years back (still paying), and I have been upgrading piecemeal over the years.... Eventually I upgraded the capture to a breakout box with componant, but haven't upgraded the cam yet because I'm waiting for a better HDV camera. This is a self-funded artists studio, so budget has forced me to compromise a bit on quality, but it is certainly good enough for VJ and aftereffects!

I would stay away from the little firewire capture box. A friend bought one for live-cam into his VJ software and it didn't last a year. Get something robust like the AJA. Once you have captured (tapeless) uncompressed you might have to transcode to Animation or MJPEG to save space -- or start investing in some serious RAID storage.

[holly]

Originally posted by famouswhendead
Firewire stays firewire... ie DV.
No Gary, the two firewire devices he mentioned capture uncompressed and pass that signal thru firewire. They are not DV converters like the Canopus.

[sleepytom]

i think we are getting a bit aahead of ourselves here....

thomase wants better quality video when hes doing effects and stuff in motion so the simplist option is an app that will capture dv and allow you to cross render to a lossless quicktime codec.

i'd sugest that you upgrade to FCP as an intital step - if you are still not satisfyed with the DV capture quality you can then upgrade to a decklink card or whatever.

if you want to try the process for free then you could capture in imovie before rendering to a lossless codec to use in moition. obviously you won't be able to import your motion renders into FCE but you can checkout the quality and see if its a big enough improvement to justify upgrading to FCP.

[holly]

oh, yes. You will need to invest in an NLE that can handle more than just DV, otherwise you will do the fx in Motion and go right back to DV to edit....

[thomase]

Originally posted by holly
oh, yes. You will need to invest in an NLE that can handle more than just DV, otherwise you will do the fx in Motion and go right back to DV to edit....
exactly!
this is what I am talking about...
BUT!!! the new FCE HD allows HD AND Motion import:
http://www.apple.com/finalcut/
I guess it still doesn't support such a card...

I still don't get the following: Is an ordinary 3ccd-cam connected to, say the decklink card going to give REALLY good results? Is it worth upgrading?
I mean, it's only 299 euros now. AND: do U really have to upgrade to FCP when FCE now supports HDV?

I am asking all this because I want to go the route Holly chose, e.g. mainly shooting in the studio and then work with dvds, occasionally using additional material shot outside the studio...

[holly]

I don't know. I looked at the specs of FCE "reading" HDV, but it is a bit Apple-esque (ie: vague in the hard facts). Is it using the native HDV codec (which is MPEG2, isn't it?) or is it downsampling to DV? I would think if FCE (or FCP) suddenly was able to edit MPEG2 we would hear so much fanfair we'd think Apple had re-invented fire.

As for Motion and FCP/E "reading" each other's formats, that does not mean anything as to the codec. For example, when I export a FCP "movie" for use in my MPEG2 encoder, the original codec of my project is irrelevant (but preserved). A FCP Movie is only a few hundred K. It is just markers or directions to the original capture videos somewhere on my harddrive. It just means I don't have to render out a stand-alone QT to pass the cuts/comps from app to app. If the originals were in DV, they are still in DV. If the originals were uncompressed, they are still uncompressed.
Is an ordinary 3ccd-cam connected to, say the decklink card going to give REALLY good results? Is it worth upgrading?
Yes it will be significantly better quality, but there are downsides to it too. DV is popular because it is a small but consistant filesize, and digital so you don't have to rewrite the file with every edit. It is a dream-come-true for documentary "storymakers" editing on a laptop. It is not good enough for graphic artists. To get better images you will most likely have to make the investment to professional or semi-professional equipment/software/capture. At the very least, going to an SDI card means your camera has to have SDI output or you buy a converter ($). You will need lots and lots of harddrive space ($$) and archiving in the original quality means you cannot put more than a few minutes on a single dvd backup ($$$$). The SDI card will likely ship with a small app that can capture the uncompressed file to your hdd, and Motion will accept any QT codec, but FCE is still the weakspot. Many of FinalCut's realtimefx and transitions will no longer be realtime. You may even have problems simply watching the full uncompressed file play on your Mac's screen (this is why you may want more of a PCI breakoutbox solution with an accelerated hardware card, than "just" uncompressed input/output). I haven't seriously researched the AJA and others, since I already invested in a PCI card.

[thomase]

thanx Holly!

well, the fact of not havong to render a movie out to work on it in motion is already better than it is now...
may I ask you what kind of card you are using?

[visualove]

It is hard to describe some of the trade offs you have to make in text and much of what you need to decide has to be seen to be judged.

You are describing the questions of "workflow" - the sequence of hardware and software steps end to end for your project. No one, even George Lucas, has an infinite budget - it's always a trade off!

Your camera, and it sounds like you have a good one, is one of the first steps in a chain. The look of the camera will be influenced by the lens, the image sensors, the video processor, the gamma curve (brightness in verses digital bit value out) the settings and I'm sure a bunch of other things. The analog video out (s-video is better than composite (RCA)) is before the compression and therefore better quality than the DV out.

In preparation for compression, all the black and white brightness pixels are kept but about 3/4 of the color pixels are thrown out. The eye is more sensitive to the brightness. In broadcast television, only half of the color is thrown out. (In super high quality professional work and in chroma keying none of the color is discarded - keeping or discarding color, "chroma subsampling", is described by the notation 4:4:4:4, 4:2:2, 4:1:1, 4:1:0 etc). The video is digitized into 256 possible brightness levels and 256 possible values for each of the colors - 8 bits. Even with all of this, the picture is better than VHS. (neglecting broadcast legal issues...)

Then in DV each frame is compressed by itself.

This compressed video is what is put on tape and sent out the firewire to the editing system.

I'm not sure whether Apple transcodes the DV or leaves it as DV under Quicktime. Motion graphics and titles look terrible compressed, so best to do them at full resolution. All your tracks are rendered and potentially recompressed to DV. Not sure about final cut, but is is best to render (compress) directly to MPEG2 if that is your final output format (DVD).

There are a million more issues like calibrated monitors if that is important to your project.

I'd suggest you get in touch with any film oriented video user groups nearby, the university, or TV station types. (Final Cut Pro, Premiere or Avid user groups are common) You may be able to borrow equipment, try before buying or squat on their equipment, or even get them to do the work for you!

[holly]

This is what I started with:
http://auroravideosys.com/support/download/productshots/75dpiwebjpg/IgniterX.jpg

I recently upgraded to this:
http://auroravideosys.com/image/palette/igniterx_pro.jpg

It is from Aurora Video Systems. They have a lowest end system (cannot be upgraded) that uses a PCI (G4 or G5) slot priced at $1000 that gives you S-vid and composite i/o. Their M-JPEG codec is considered one of the best (http://www.auroravideosys.com/support/quicktime/comparisons.html).

It is more expensive than most of the new SDI uncompressed cards like the one Tom mentioned, but my camera is not SDI ($$$), and the codec it uses is almost half the size of uncompressed and the bandwidth fits thru the firewire400 pipe (I can use Firewire harddrives directly, no loading/unloading from a RAID) and it goes straight into/outta the V-4 etc so it interfaces with my live rig and dvd recorder without issue.

Depending on how much of the original files you will want to back-up at original quality, expect to be investing in BIG harddrives every so often or buying bulk dvd-r at regular intervals (half as much storage as uncompressed, but about 3x as much as DV). All that should factor into your budget too.

[thomase]

ok... that sounds as if I have to start saving money (dunno whether it's worth the effort - financially that is) I thought something like the decklink would do, I didn't realize it didn't have "normal" video inputs (RCA or S-vid).
on the other hand, the aja firewire box seems to be the most affordable...
anyway, after reading all this, I guess there is still a long way to go for me...
thanx for your help!!

[famouswhendead]

Originally posted by holly
No Gary, the two firewire devices he mentioned capture uncompressed and pass that signal thru firewire. They are not DV converters like the Canopus.

If you are using the FW port on AJA Devices this will just pass the DV information.
If you use the SDI ports or components then you are correct in saying that the firewire cable is passing what ever data has been chosen. (either BMD or AJA or FCP codecs)
The AJA does 10bit 4:2::2 the other device I am unfamiliar with.

About the svid looking better then from the GL1 that is a matter of debate because if you went and used the avid dv25 codec to render too you'll see a marked improvement.
(I usually cheat for DV and load a DV clip in Avid free and play from there to a deck).

But is the same as going sdi from a dv deck.
On panasonics it improves a bit.

Also the other problem is that on a mac on the computer monitor it will always show lo quality DV unless you've a client monitor attached on which it will show the hi qual DV.
(i posted the synthetic app convertor elsewher on this site)

The reason why i mentioned the canopus because it is the cheapest way of adding a monitor convertor to a set-up to view your canvas. (cheaper then getting a pvm or bvm monitor anyway)

But in the original post FCE was mentioned and not FCP.
The kona will not work with FCE.
If getting cards like this I recommend Black Magic design decklink http://www.decklink.com or if you are doing portable stuff as well the AJA IO http://www.aja.com

(my old favourite was aurora video systems igniter ;))

(small tip want to really test RT in FCP change the offline settings to 100% quality photoJPEGs)

[thomase]

thanx, I had a look at the decklink cards. they seem to have only sdi in which my cam doesn't have...

[videoteque]

Holly has talked about but didn't give the site, have you tried this (http://www.synthetic-ap.com/products/hiq/index.html). It's a script that turns on a high quality playback of DV clips in Quickime. The difference is day and night. But it's only on the playback in Quicktime, that is, even without running this script your DVDs would be top quality.

There are a some big feature films made in DV, I think that if you take care to not reencode effects 20 times, there's no problem with DV quality. At least no problems BIGGER than later going to DVD...

[holly]

Originally posted by videoteque
this (http://www.synthetic-ap.com/products/hiq/index.html). It's a script that turns on a high quality playback of DV clips in Quickime. Ooh, thanks! I was looking for that!

[videoteque]

I am nearly sure that FCE uses Quicktime and should support more or less the same codecs as FCP, so Animation or Uncompressed should work... I can't confirm now...

[famouswhendead]

What I heard from one of the apple project managers is that FCE converts the HDV GOP (Group of pictures) to all Iframes so you can edit with it.

Info stuff:
http://www.vasst.com/HDV/hdv-FAQ.htm
or the classic HD resource:
http://www.hdforindies.com/

If you do a lot of composite stuff the igniter is definitely the way to go as you can upgrade it slowly.
I personally prefer the AJA IO even though I went from a fuse to an igniter.

Igniter cool factor: walter murch edited cold mountain on it ;)

[thomase]

Originally posted by videoteque

There are a some big feature films made in DV, I think that if you take care to not reencode effects 20 times, there's no problem with DV quality. At least no problems BIGGER than later going to DVD...

thanx for the link!

well I posted this question initially to know how to avoid re-encoding ten times...
so how do you do that?
I mean, as soon as you export your movie, it gets re-encoded, right?
so what to do?

[holly]

I LOVE you Gary! Marry me!!!:love:

The idea is that when you USE the clip the tenth time, it still looks pretty damn good. It's like photoshop: as long as you don't compress your footage to a web-sized jpeg, the video stays looking good with very little loss in quality. You are seeing the filters, not the codec. Motion to FinalCut to AfterEffects to Artmatic.... They are copies, but they are pixel-accurate copies. Only the filter will introduce noise.

The one weak spot is that you will want to use your mixer and do something you can only do with analog fx. (using the camera already means you are at least partly in analog anyway). Or it becomes much faster to play a render out of the Igniter, run it through the mixer with another layer, and record onto maybe a dvd recorder -- which will preserve better than your DV camera and is ready to take to the club.... Anytime you go analog, you will lose quality. I can go through an analog studio process twice with my igniter/phillips combo before I am dissastisfied with quality, and I am very fussy about the image. The 3rd analog pass is final live-mix before going to the projector. The quality is cleaner (pixelwise) than most other VJ I have seen. (well, any VJ using video sources.)

I moved my 1st igniter to an older G4 I use to render 3D.... Hmmm, I should load it up with FCP and have an igniter/igniter analog studio....

[thomase]

either I got something wrong or you holly:

I don't want to go out through the mixer and back in again...

at the moment, I use a borrowed cam to get my tapes to my hd, but I WAS thinking about such a crad, just can't afford it yet.

What I actually mean is this (and maybe I am being dumb, so please explain s l o w l y :o ):

Holly, you say going from one app to the other is possible without loss of quality cause the clips are just copies. Do you mean I should save the clip as finalcut film instead of exporting it to whatever format in quicktime? If I work with that clip in motion and want to re-import it to finalcut, WHAT DO I HAVE to do????

I just don't get how to move from one app to the other without losing quality. :sad: :o :sad: :help:

[holly]

Ok, lets say I render a thing in 3D. I save it to QT in ANIMATION codec at millions+ quality so I can have an alphachannel. A fullsize QT with this much info chokes my computer and won't play smoothly on the screen.

Now I open it in AE and add some glows and highlights. And adjust the colors/contrast a little so it is sharper. I save it as a QT in M-jpeg at 100% quality. I can now use it in my VJ app, but at 100% quality it is still a large file (not as large as ANIMATION).

Now I open the 2nd QT in Artmatic. I use some simple proceedurals to arrange them in a hex-grid pattern (square grids are pass?). They also slide all around the screen so it looks like you are surrounded by dozens of the 3D critter.... Render to QT at M-jpeg 100%.

I can use this "variation" in my VJ app to mix the 2 QT together. It looks so good I decide to build this comp in AE, so I load up the Artmatic QT and the original render (with the alphachannel) and composit them as foreground and background. Now I am using a twice rendered QT at virtually no quality loss (because I have been saving at 100% quality each time). I render this as another QT. The background has been saved 3x, but still looks as good as the original, except for the resize and motion that Artmatic did to it.

With MOTION you will be able to do these color corrections and procedural fx in one step, but you get the idea.

Now you are ready to release your big album! You have edited all your hi-qual clips in FCP (still at 100% m-jpeg). It is a masterpiece. You are done. Save as FCP movie and export to the MPEG2 encoder. Burn to dvd.

[thomase]

ok! (wow I got that...) BUT:
what happens if my original material is ALREADY DV?
Does that mean I'm f?$%ed?

it seems there's no way round upgrading to FCP, or does the HD support mean I can stick to FCE?

[famouswhendead]

Originally posted by thomase
ok! (wow I got that...) BUT:
what happens if my original material is ALREADY DV?
Does that mean I'm f?$%ed?

it seems there's no way round upgrading to FCP, or does the HD support mean I can stick to FCE?

When material is DV it'll stay that way.
When doing ChromaKeys it might be worth grabbing the footage from the camera/deck using the analog/component/sdi (whatever applies) output from the deck/cam to up the YUV space to 4:2:2 instead of 4:2:0 (PAL) or 4:1:1 (NTSC).

When editing any format stay native as long as possible. So DV, 2:1, dvcpro whatever.
I usually edit my stuff in my editor consolidate the media used and go to AE where I'll CC and FX it.

FCE only offers HDV which is a compressed HD format.

So IMHO stay DV.
For chromakeys capture using the analog to up the colorspace. YMMV

Always render to your final output not say you been doing DV and are going to 320x240 PJPEG for your VJ app.
Render the 320x240 from your application.
Do not go rendered DV movie then convert to 320x240.
Remember you are making it for a destined medium wether that be DVD, CD, cheesgrater flashlight combo or whatever.


DV stuff try www.adamwilt.com

[thomase]

Originally posted by famouswhendead
When material is DV it'll stay that way.


thanx for the link, but:

I thought as soon as you export, you'll re-encode... and from the looks, that's exactly what happens.

I'll ask again: if I have some material shot on dv, capture it to my hd via firewire, do edits in fce, then want to apply fx in motion and re-edit what I have, e.g. have two clips done in motion edited together.
How should I save/export my files in each app?

[famouswhendead]

Originally posted by thomase
thanx for the link, but:

I thought as soon as you export, you'll re-encode... and from the looks, that's exactly what happens.

I'll ask again: if I have some material shot on dv, capture it to my hd via firewire, do edits in fce, then want to apply fx in motion and re-edit what I have, e.g. have two clips done in motion edited together.
How should I save/export my files in each app?

oops what I forgot to mention.
You should use (export) a reference movie instead of a full export when going to anoher application as this will reference the original media without a reencoding.

[lightandshadow]

Reference movies are also very useful for working with uncompressed content.

By initially using reference movies in FCP, motion, etc., you can view all of your effects in realtime during the editing process, then swap them out with uncompressed versions for the final render.

[thomase]

:o what's a reference movie?
saving as finalcutmovie?

[famouswhendead]

But in FCP.
it is: exports as quicktime.
Then leave the recompress all frames and make movie self contained unchecked.

In QT you can do this too, but then you already need a movie to reference to.

Do a search of the FCE help for "reference movie"

[thomase]

thanx. what is "save as finalcut movie" then?
I think this should also be just a reference, right?
BTW: If I save in QT like you described and drag the resulting file to TOAST in video mode, will this create a clip on my DVD or not?

[famouswhendead]

With FCE/Imovie I only know off export to IDVD which does just that.

Toast No clue, it probably will though.
Have you tried the apple or roxio forums?

[thomase]

no, I haven't... I'll prolly just try out myself when burning a video cd.
Well, there is the option to save as a finalcut movie, I was just curious whether that would give the same result...

BTW: this forum is such a fantastic source of knowledge!!! Thanx so much for your help!

[thomase]

I have decided to stay DV for the next project, simply because I can't afford any other solution at the mo. Even though I WILL try the TV-card fons recommended in another thread, cause it can apparently capture uncompressed. Anyway, I was thinking about this:
The new FCE supports Motion project IMPORT (no export to motion).
Motion supports reference movies (thanx Gary - BTW there ARE the so called "Finalcutmovies" which are in fact reference movies).

So I concluded I could do the editing in FCE, export reference movies , save them as motion projects and import these projects into FCE again. Hence, no DE- or REcompression.

Is this correct or am I missing something?

P.S. need to upgrade to FCE HD anyway. i'm still on FCE 1.01...

[famouswhendead]

[i]ich are in fact reference movies).

So I concluded I could do the editing in FCE, export reference movies , save them as motion projects and import these projects into FCE again. Hence, no DE- or REcompression.

Is this correct or am I missing something?

P.S. need to upgrade to FCE HD anyway. i'm still on FCE 1.01... [/B]


Das ist stimmt.
Viel spass :)

[loboy]

hey thomase,

I have generally the same workflow, both using FCP and Motion. I only use Motion for overlays such as Title sequences or something very tight and pixel oriented. I can only believe Motion is only good for overlaying. I have a somewhat DV workflow. FCP is just a really expensive virtual film cutter. Do your overlays in Motion, with no background, export to DV 720 x 480, then bring it into FCP or whatever you are using.

You seem to be working the opposite way. Editting in FCE and then bringing everything in to Motion. Motion is very much like Flash, which is also good for overlaying. Motion is a huge processor hog, with the amount of mapping it does to files on your drive, it can get out of control quickly, especially if your drunk.

In the long run, set up a second monitor and make sure you are monitoring the correct source and quality, and if it looks good roll with it. Know your audience and monitor on their same source, be it projector, cathode tube, plasma screen, slide projector.

[thomase]

dann spricht der auch noch deutsch :D
wo genau in Holland bist du eigentlich?
WErd bestimmt bald mal wieder in frouvenpolder sein, dann könnt man sich ja mal treffen...

loboy:

I was talking about the workflow for filters, not animation. in the latter case, the workflow you describe is pretty much the way to go with. I had a project with some footage that needed some manipulation, I apllied mainly glows and things like that, so I needed to go back and forth which meant re-encoding.
as said in my previous post, I'll upgrade to FCE HD, which allows MOTION project import...
my problem so far was that I don't Have FC PRO, only EXPRESS and there was no import possibility for anything but DV material (on the video side)...

[thomase]

Ok, I know the thread has been dead for jalf a year, and using you tips, the videoquality of my clips has increased dramatically...
BUT I I will have to work with chromakeys and thought about buying this (http://www.miglia.com/products/video/alchemytvdvr/index.html) to record straight from camera which only has s-vid out
what do you guys think? will quality be good or should I invest in something like this (http://www.auroravideosys.com/products/avFam_pipebase.php) ? what I also need to know is whether I need a raid system???
the plan is: capture uncompressed, key in MOTION, either export to dv or -if this works - open MOTION project in Final CUt express and edit there...

[ecin]

i'll help to revitalize this thread as I just read start to finish and learned quite a lot.

i also am very interested in getting my content to look as clean as possible. the majority of my footage is CG but a good portion is footage shot with my consumer based 3ccd panasonic dv camera. correct me if I'm wrong but since my camera is recording to DV tape, its already in DV format and there's no way of getting it to look any better no matter how I encode. right now I use a Canopus Storm code and pull it all in via firewire.

Holly mentioned earlier that its possible to get better quality pulling analog via s-video. I guess I would have to upgrade my camera to get better quality. what cameras have the SDI interface to allow for higher capture quality?

thanks folks.

[thomase]

Well, what Holly was talking about (and me too when revitalising the thread) was not to record to tape and THEN play out DV (this really sucks, this is what I HAD to do, cause I have no firewire-out - that means double DV encoding which more than doubles artefacts and the like) BUT to record via analog out straight to your harddisc.
This is where this TV-Card came in, fons mentioned that this baby could record uncompressed and only costs about 120 euro.

I was then thinking about buying this thingy especially for chroma-shots but was also considering a real capture card (See the link above) to get best quality. I just don't know whether
1. Final Cut Express will be able to deal with the MOTION files (it does only (H)DV, but reads MOTION projects)
2. I need a RAID or not
3. quality will significantly improve or not
4. my G4 can handle the load or not...

But to come back to your post ecin, if you're shooting in the studio or have something like the
Kona Io (http://www.aja.com/iolabackpanel.html) then you can have better quality cause the bottleneck seems to be the DV codec...

[ecin]

i see.

i'm not shooting in the studio so it looks like i'm stuck with dv for the time being until some kind soul decides to pay me a shitload for gig and i can upgrade my gear ;)

just trying to get my head around the pro video world.

[thomase]

well, have a look at the miglia alchemy card. as mentioned before it seems to capture uncompressed for around 100 euro

[ecin]

thats a decent price for a capture card.

problem is i shoot outside of the studio to a DV camera so the footage is already compressed. i'd have to either carry a computer with me when I shoot or get a better camera.

i'm pretty happy with the quality of DV so far, just gotta make sure i keep my re-encoding down to a minimum.

[holly]

Originally posted by thomase
well, have a look at the miglia alchemy card. as mentioned before it seems to capture uncompressed for around 100 euro
Hmmm. That seems like a good price. Mac os are set up to send input from the videocard to anything that can take it. It's like a video-in function (I'm no os expert, but so far my video-in hardware has worked with almost any VJ program that accepts video-in). The slowdown is when the computer has to process (filter/fx) or encode (mpeg2) the video at the same time.... The card will probably let you set some capture parameters like resolution and encode quality, so you will have some room to play.

Also as a rule (just like audiocards), "pro" videocards are going to look better than "tv-on-pc" cards, and the resolution difference on the Miglia card vs the Aurora Pipe seems to support this theory (only 640*480 for NTSC). HOWEVER, at 100euro I don't think you can go toooooo wrong. Miglia says all you need is a 400mhz G4, but if you are capturing Uncompressed that might be more info than your hdd can take. I don't use a RAID at all. (I use the old card from Aurora and its M-JPEG codec which encodes at just under FireWire bandwidth so I usually use an internal, but firewire is an option.) RAID seems like a hassle, but you can get an internal RAID card connected to 2 internal drives.... I've forgotten the manufacturer (met him at a MacWorld Expo) but it was cheap (like under $50).

Capture and Storage and Playback are 3 separate issues. You might be able to capture uncompressed, but not see it at full res on your monitor.... Likewise, Uncompressed shoots are going to be a bitch to backup and save. A blank dvd-r will only hold a minute or two, so forget any long takes.... Capturing uncompressed and then transcoding to MJPEG might be an option but it will add an extra step that takes a lot of time. QT transcodes are still pretty slow, imo.... You are better off investing in a system that lets you capture, compress, and playback all in the same codec. Apple's MJPEG is supposed to be accelerated for G4. You might be able to use the Miglia card and capture in Apple MJPEG 100% with very little quality loss and only a little processor hit. Should be easier on the harddrive, too. All this for 100euro would be VERY worth it, even if it is not "broadcast quality" I think it would still be better for chroma shoots than DV.

That's my 2cents. I'm interested in knowing what you decide so let us know.
:yep:

edited to add:
Oops, sorry, forgot you are on FCE. It is DV-only isn't it? Maybe you can use the money you save on the Miglia to get FCP...?

[thomase]

well, I want to try and see whether FCE can import MOTION projects which include uncompressed clips (FCE can import MOTION projects in general, I just have never tried this). I wanted to do the keying in MOTION neway and then maybe dwonconvert...

[thomase]

Oh, and I forgot - This is for one or two music videos, so quality should be as high as possible... I really think about investing in a capture card, but I only have a DV camera (3ccd), so no sdi outs... and I really cannot invest THAT much (the videos are still in demo/ pre-demo status) as soon as there's a budget, things will be much clearer (I might even work with a pro-camera team to shoot the video)