Check this lame ass shit out

[CA]

This is bordering on making me laugh and pissing me off, and the more I think about it, I am leaning to the later.

I am the resident Video tech at my club. I am responsible for maintaining the video system and creating content for 5 totally different nights.

Monday-goth night
Thursday- College Frat fuck night
Friday- Gay Night
Saturday- Top 40 hip hop
Sunday- Techno with Juan Atkins (this ones new).

This line up keeps things interesting and is really good for the club, but keeps me rather busy with new clips that are appropriate. Goth night blood doesn't go very well on Pride Friday.

Unfortunately, time and the amount of cash they pay me weekly is not enough for me to come in and do live mixes every night. Usually I will make up a pre mixed tape of my content and have them play that. (Dont rag on me...you dont know how much I get paid ;) )It ends up working out pretty well.

So today I get an email from the marketing guy/Thursday night dj (we all wear several hats there) saying that last night (thursday) while I was out of the club they decided that the content that I had provided for them (cluby stuff, mainly moving shapes, nothing too freaky) "was not appropriate for the crowd". So he threw on a copy of Anchorman staring Will Fairel (spelling?) on. No mix, no FX, straight movie. He said the frat kids "seemed to like it alot..."

Now Im not gonna go in to the whole copyright thing, thats a whole other topic that has been discussed in great detail on other threads.

However, the fact that they took out my shit to play a movie really pisses me off. Its boring and it is cheap. It makes the club look less classy. In my opinion, if people want to watch a comedy, they will got to Blockbuster Video and rent one. When people go to a club they want to be immersed in a club atmosphere correct?

Now its their club, and they can do what they want. But this is just lame.

What do you think....

Am I being a lazy baby?

Is it cool to play a comedy in a nightclub?

Should they keep their mits off my gear?

Should I ask for more cash so I can be there every night?

Should I say F the copyright and cut some Anchorman footage and things like it in to my sets?

Sorry this was so long...

CA

[disassembler]

Originally posted by CA
Now its their club, and they can do what they want. But this is just lame.

What do you think....

Am I being a lazy baby?

Is it cool to play a comedy in a nightclub?

Should they keep their mits off my gear?

Should I ask for more cash so I can be there every night?

Should I say F the copyright and cut some Anchorman footage and things like it in to my sets?

Sorry this was so long...

CA

Isn't VJing something that is done live???
You've set the standard of what is appropriate, you give them a mixed tape. I understand the giving them what they pay for but keep in mind your not the only VJ in Michigan :D , let alone Ann Arbor.

No matter how much you get paid you should always give your best.

Do you use samples?

See how easy it is to make visuals. So easy in fact, I'll just rent a video myself and not hire the video dude.

Comedy rules. Keep in mind that what some people find funny others get offended by (but whatever).

Yes they should keeps mits off yer gear.

Try taking some time off. I can't imagine being able to create fresh new quality sets daily/weekly.
They see you tooo much. So much that Anchorman seems fresh.

Should you put Anchorman into your sets???
Well, depends on if you want $$$ or reputation. If you do use Anchorman clips realize that your encouraging them to use more movies and therefore cutting you out more often. Not only that but your also opening the door for others to come in. Like ME!
:yep:

If I were you, I would only do shows for the big respected names (Juan Atkins).

Let the club get sued. Shit! Report the club for copyright violations, but don't let them know you did. :D

My advice is to pick a style and stick with it. Jack of all trades, master of none.

[Esotic]

I haven't seen what you do, but when I watch most VJs work I'm like "this sucks" (including my own). Not that it really sucks, I just wish it was more engaging than it actually is. Pretty pictures are cool and all, but without substance and context it won't hold most peoples attention. Anchorman is a stupid movie, but you can't expect to sell Noam Chomsky or Immanual Kant books at the circus, yo.

Trying to compete with the visual quality of Hollywood and MTV where they spend upwards of millions of dollars on each minute of video is going to be a tough job. Our artform is very new and most of what we produce is mediocre with passing moments of brilliance. I never expect anyone to "get" what I do because the creation aspect is a personal balancing act between ability/capacity and time, most of which are quite arguably in short supply. I do have tenacious volition going for me, though, as I expect most of us do (and for that much we deserve at least some respect). :)

VJing doesn't have to be done live, although I personally prefer it that way. I can understand VJs who premix thier content either for time contraint or quality reasons. Like tonite I have to be in two places at once and I sure as shit can't VJ live when I'm not there, so I'll have to play a tape until GIG1 ends so I can schlep on over to GIG2.

I don't really believe in Karma, but I also don't go around inviting it to bite me on the ass. Reporting people for violating the law is retarded, regardless of how much you dislike them. :grrr:

I understand your frustration, but at this point I think it's just part of the territory. Respect is a two way street and in at least some small way someone has proved you don't need to respect them as much. Or something.

Best luck in your endeavors,

-Esotic

[disassembler]

Originally posted by Esotic
VJing doesn't have to be done live
:rolleyes:

[Stickman]

Doing the same thing night after night (ok, week after week in this case) sucks.

Sticking in a movie to get variety sucks even more.

Get some more VJ's in, even if you can't offer them much (or any) money, at least things get fresher and the promoter person might see the error of Anchorman.

Sticks.

[solly]

You got to fight for your right...................... No seriously. You should have a word with them and tell them that Vjing is not an easy thing, especially coming up with content and ideas every weekend. They dont tell the dj to change the music every day. Its mostly repeats. So sell your product again in case they forget what vjing is,
Solly:yep:

[CA]

disassembler:

Your are right, VJing is something that is done live. In my post I
made sure to say that I was a tech and not a vj. Although I do come
in and mix at least 2 nights a week. So I guess about half the time I
am a VJ at the club.

As far as giving them mix tapes, it comes down to a money thing. would
you come in and vj 5 nights a week for $20 a night, maybe. I might, I
like doing it. But time is money. The mix tapes are part of the
agreement that the club and I came to in the beginning of our
relationship. It was understood that they would not be interested in
paying me for a live set every night so...that was that.

I do use samples, but I try to do it sparingly. And when I do I try my
best to turn them in to something that is my own, or put my own take
on them.

"Should you put Anchorman into your sets???
Well, depends on if you want $$$ or reputation. If you do use
Anchorman clips realize that your encouraging them to use more movies
and therefore cutting you out more often."

True

"Not only that but your also opening the door for others to come in. Like ME!"

You dont want this job LOL trust me.

On the other hand I would like to have people come in a mash some shit
together with me. Ive talked a few people about it and they seem cool with the idea of a join project. If you would be interested I think a weekly Vj showcase might be in order.

Are you going to Rodan tomorrow?

see the posts about mid west VJ gatherings.

If you are I look forward to seeing you there. If not you should come down to the club some time and we can talk. Bring some friends and Ill buy the beers.


Esotic:

My shit sucks too.:P What I would really like to do is have an interactive set up where the patrons movements and proximity to different things in the room change what they see on the screen. I want to plop a dome down on the dance floor and have a 360 degree room for them to fuck around in. I want to project on the ceiling and on the floor. But its money. And it is time. and it is space. And like you said no one would really give a fuck anyway except for us nerds.

"I never expect anyone to "get" what I do because the creation aspect is a personal balancing act between ability/capacity and time..."

True, I dont either. It would be nice for them to say you are in charge and then fuck off. God knows they have enough shit to worry about. As for the crowd...I try to add atmosphere and eye candy. Im not trying to tell stories or anything like that. If I want to do that I will set up my own gig where people know what they are coming to see and can be fully engaged from the beginning.

I too prefer to mix live. Its fun. You and the content become a part of the entertainment rather then some flashing lights and shapes. Mixing live is really the only true way that we can show people what is possible in this art form.

Like I said, I wear many hats at the club so I wont be reporting anyone on copyright infringement. I would like to have some documentation on people getting fucked for using material they do not own the rights to. Plop a copy down in front of the Marketing manager and watch him count the zero$ in the lawsuit.

Stickman:

You gave me an idea...thank you.

[CA]

Solly:

you are correct.

I think that both the club and I both need to sit down and have a conversation on what we need and what we can provide for each other.

ca

[Stickman]

Originally posted by CA

Stickman:

You gave me an idea...thank you.

Your most welcome.

If i was in your area I'd come along and help you out :-)

Hope it goes according to plan for you.

Sticks.

[murk]

Originally posted by Esotic
I haven't seen what you do, but when I watch most VJs work I'm like "this sucks" (including my own). Not that it really sucks, I just wish it was more engaging than it actually is. Pretty pictures are cool and all, but without substance and context it won't hold most peoples attention. ....
Trying to compete with the visual quality of Hollywood and MTV where they spend upwards of millions of dollars on each minute of video is going to be a tough job. Our artform is very new and most of what we produce is mediocre with passing moments of brilliance.

Originally posted by CA

My shit sucks too. What I would really like to do is have an interactive set up where the patrons movements and proximity to different things in the room change what they see on the screen. I want to plop a dome down on the dance floor and have a 360 degree room for them to fuck around in. I want to project on the ceiling and on the floor. But its money. And it is time. and it is space. And like you said no one would really give a fuck anyway except for us nerds.

There are manys ways in which VJs can be much more powerful than even the most expenive movies.
1) Provide a "Look and Feel" that is unique for a given venue.
2) Infuse the venue with rhythm, energy and vibration
3) Adjust to the mood and vibe of the environment, music, and nightly theme
4) Provide aestetic consistency.

VJs will NEVER be able to compete with the high quality of movies (Computer graphix, High paid actors etc.) , but if they focus on those attributes that are within reach, others will recognize their true value.

[holly]

VJing is live, yeah. But there is an aspect to providing video content to a club that IS part of the VJ's job -- it's not the live-mix part, it's the business part. You can justify the fact that they pulled your mix-tape for several reasons.

1) you were not there to judge whether or not the vids were jiving with the crowd. Do you trust these guys to know their own party? Tell them you obviously can do a LOT more for them when you mix live.... Apologize for not being able to be there for Frat Thursday (but of course, the money prohibits you being there every night...). Ask if they want to go more in a "blockbuster" direction. No insult intended but from your description you were just giving them lampy-esque shit anyway (moving shapes and colors) so this is no judgement on your abilities to provide good video background.

2) Talk about the content that would fit the beer'n'nuts crowd. Ask them if they want to buy some mook-friendly vids like Caddyshack, RoadTrip, RoadTrip2, and the movie where the guy fucks the pie. Offer to edit together a new "tv highlights" video a month. If they really thought the movie worked for the party then they will think this is a great idea.

I mean really, you're upset about FRAT NIGHT? As someone said before, you can't sell Chomskey at the circus. Colored lights and pretty motion is worthless when their high is BEER and their entertainment level is MAX BIGALO AMATUER GIGILO! Hello? "frat party"? Just make a tape of teen party movies from the last 5 years. They'll all watch and say "Ooh Dude, this is that scene where he fucks the pie!" ppphhhhhttt Give them what they want. Who cares. As you say, you're not there to suffer live, so give them dorky movies to watch that they recognize like they went to CHEERS bar with the FRIENDS all night.

You have a good gig with the club so work with them. Don't let your "designer's eye" override flexibility. You have Goth, Hiphop, Techno, and Gay nights to show "real" content. If the bar can keep a crowd 5 nights a week then you have a job.

[CA]

"Ooh Dude, this is that scene where he fucks the pie!"

Holly, you always put it in to perspective. I was thinking of doing yet another teen movie mash up type thing.

Like I said to solly, I got some shit to talk about with the club.

CA

[papadoc]

Originally posted by CA
He said the frat kids "seemed to like it alot..."


i think that pretty well describes the root of the problem. maybe try showing animal house and mix in some luminescent skulls & bones left over from the goth night tapes. NFL highlight DVD's might be a crowdpleaser also for this target audience. i wouldn't take it too personally

[sketchyj]

if the club is greenlighting movies, then i say go for it...do a kickass mashup of movie clips that would appeal to a meathead crowd...do it with skill and style, not just a straight rip and stitch operation...actually i would love to take on a project like that...i would use tons of stuff which appeals to the lowest common denominator, boobs, beer,cheerleaders, jocks acting like idiots...make it a grotesque charicature of frat boy culture...they will love it because they are too stupid to realize it's a satire about them, and you can still create art if you do it right....if the club doesnt care about copyrights, i guarantee the drunk football players won't either....

[topherz]

"appeals to the lowest common denominator, boobs, beer,cheerleaders, jocks acting like idiots"

uhhh, "concrete tv"?;)

[Stickman]

Originally posted by sketchyj
..do a kickass mashup of movie clips that would appeal to a meathead crowd...do it with skill and style, not just a straight rip and stitch operation... .... and you can still create art if you do it right.....

couldn't agree more.

When I was the resident VJ for Euphoria (a vocal trance label, sometimes very cheesy and always uber commercial) I was contractually obliged to use thier TV adverts for 15% of the night..... but I still made it arty and the crowd at the parties actually really liked it (I know cos they frequently came up to my mixing desk and told me so).

it's all work, and, if you can combine art and work then....

Sticks.

[syzygy]

why bother spending time creating art for the frat boys?

My advice would be do a quick a dirty edit job for the frat night - put just enough effort in to justify them paying you to do it rather than just playing videos.

Then spend the time making content for the other nights, where the punters are much more likely to a) notice and b) apprieciate decent visuals.

Dan.

[sketchyj]

of course, creating stuff for a goth or gay night is more appreciated and more fulfilling! but if you are in the situation of the club putting on anchorman, you need to address the problem. i would get into the spirit of it not as glorifying the life, but subtly or not so subtly making a mockery of it. i would envision something like this: start out with a small loop of a really dumbass jock doing something retarded like doing a beer bong or whatever else, theres no shortage of teen angst movies for material...then create a mask, cut the backround, and insert a kaliedescope of footballs, beer cans, al bundy, heads popping open with empty brain cavities, whatever...use hollywood FX pro and cut between quick takes of jocks looking stupid/acting stupid using the sports transitions (theres a whole section of animated football transitions, football fields, and the like)....if i had my way the whole thing would be a collosal joke on them, and since they probably wont notice anyway, at least you have content that you can defend to the club owner as created with this crown in mind. plus, if it's funny, you can use it anywhere because even gay or goth nights will appreciate the sarcasm

[Stickman]

Originally posted by sketchyj
if it's funny, you can use it anywhere because even gay or goth nights will appreciate the sarcasm

I think they might appreciate even more than the frat boys ;) especially the gay nights (if you use some muscle bound characters / -beefcake- /)

anyhow, who's to say that art's reserved for certain groups and not for frat boys...?

Sticks.

[syzygy]

you ever been drinking with frat boys?

Art is not on their agenda.

Dan.

[sketchyj]

i think the point is not to worry about making art for the frat boys, make it to impress the boss, and because thats what VJ's are supposed to do...by doing a half assed job because you aren't into the crowd will only hurt yourself in the end.

[akira_k]

If the money is GOOD I would try and do something about this.

But the way you picture it seems like the money is not even worth it, so I would just call it quits and introduce them to their new VJ: a brand spanking new Blockbuster membership card.

I'm sorry but I do not think what I'm supposed to do is to impresss the 'boss'. Lots of times my client does not agre with certain things when spoken, but when they see them live they have to shut up. Someimes after a party they tell me this or that thing was not that appropriate and I put up for it and defend it. tough shit if they didn't like that bit, I thought it was appropriate. That's why they call me again. Just like a DJ. You call them for whatever reason but maybe they hav a shit night, nevertheless they will call it again next time if it works (ie brings people)

[sketchyj]

you're probably right about that one, Akira...i guess i'm just too used to working crap 9 to 5 jobs that a regular club gig would be heaven to me

[akira_k]

Originally posted by sketchyj
you're probably right about that one, Akira...i guess i'm just too used to working crap 9 to 5 jobs that a regular club gig would be heaven to me I know your feelings and know a lot of people feeling the same, but just because of that doesn't mean you have to degrade yourself into stupid levels, for example, not making your work be worth what it really is, and working for almost nothing just because it's cooler than your 9 to 5 job.

If you are really serious about this you really have to be serious as well at the time you put a price to your work.

If you search the forums for "bottom-feeding", you might find lots of advice to avoid this ;)

[sketchyj]

doh! *hangs head in shame for being a bottom feeder*

[Stickman]

IMHO the term bottom feeder is total bollocks!

Nobody starts at the top,
Nobody has a reputation when there new

EVERBODY HAS TO START SOMEWHERE, and most of us normal people have to work our way up.

That doesn't make them bottom feeders, just as much as it doesn't make top paid VJ's have the best content.

Sticks.

[sleepytom]

actually the bottom-feeder title is correct - its the assumption that bottom-feeding is bad that's wrong...

in a pond based food chain the bottom-feeders are the small creatures that eat the shite off the bottom of the pond - the big fish can't eat this stuff directly but they can eat the bottom-feeders. so in the end the pond is healthy, the big fish have plenty to eat and they don't live in there own shit coz the bottom feeders have eaten it

if we apply this to the VJ scene the bottom-feeders do small gigs where there is no budget to pay for a "big name" vj
the fact that there are visuals at even these very small low budget gigs forces the bigger promoters to up the anti and put on more spectacular events
the big name vjs get to work at these events and are able to create more interesting work and larger installations etc etc
thus the whole scene benefits from people doing visuals at small events even if they are not charging for this service.

-----------------
err its a crap analogy but there you go - i hate the word bottom-feeder its total rubbish invented by paranoid and weak old VJs to belittle newcomers

[akira_k]

Got to agree with you there, however, I still think sometimes people stretch it too much, working in ridiculous situations. I am not using the term as "look at those guys who work for fuck all and steal my job!", surely that's an excuse for those insecure about their work, but I'm using it towards people working for almost nothing, not making their job pay at least for the effort taken into doing it (people not even getting money for their transportation, for example)

[VJFranzK]

the phrase comes to mind: "pearls before swine". ;)

[asterix]

I wouldn't worry too much about what 'frat fuck thursday DJ' has to say.... he's a frat fuck dj - whatever that entails?? Probably a skill in moving a crossfader from one position to the opposite side - thus changing the song (skilled veterans of the scene can even yell out '$2.50 drinks at the bar' simultaneously :)




QUESTION: Why even bother with visuals at frat fuck thursday? Throw on a copy of 'hooters' and get paid anyway? And spend your new found time making visuals you deem worthy of a pumpin saturday night crowd. He's happy. Your happy. And the crowd will continue vomiting cheap american beer non the wiser.

[Stickman]

in fact, why bother with projectors, just install a 14inch protable TV and put the media player on repeat / loop and go home.....

[sketchyj]

anyone ever hear of a little band called NOFX? on their first tour of the U.S. the band traveled and played all summer, earning $600 collectively, which they were thrilled with because they were doing what they wanted to do. Lots of great musicians and DJ's started this way, playing gigs for free even because they enjoyed it and because they were forging a name for themselves. I hear a lot of crybabies in these forums who feel that new VJ's doing free gigs or cheap gigs even are committing some kind of cardinal sin. What about an artist who paints a picture of a woman because he loves to paint and wants to impress her, or just for the excercise in painting? Does he ruin it for all the other painters out there who are "just in it for the money"? Think about it.

[KillingFrenzy]

I think this model applies in the same context as a band touring....
I.e. maybe you do visuals for a friends band, or a particular dj, hoping to get picked up by a promotion agency or a tour.
This is not applicable to a club environment, where you're essentially viewed the same as security; a necessary resource. You won't get up in the world by doing a club night (unless you make a connection with somebody from the artistic sphere.) You should get paid like any other regular employee. When doing club nights you need to reduce your own personal resources being used for the event as much as possible. Ok, make sure something like a video mixer is yours, your computer, the content, but then try and get the club to install screens and projectors and basically everything so that you show up and plug in. That way, you are showing up like a professional at a 9 to 5 job. Club nights chew up equipment, so make sure the club knows that it should be there equipment, and that just like they have to replace old needles and lights, they'll need to upkeep projector bulbs and the occasional cable.
A club night can be a good way to pay for gear so that you can go the artistic route for little or no pay when your hearts into it.

[sketchyj]

agreed...however, i'm not sure i totally agree with you that doing club nights can't lead to breaking into something bigger. I think that your statement can hold true if you allow yourself to think inside the box, and do what is basically a technical job, when it could be an opportunity to create a buzz for yourself. VJ's don't have to be seen as the invisible "A/V guy" unless they allow it to happen. Make it your strategy to be as much a part of the show as whatever is playing on the screens. It's called "show business", create a persona for yourself and incorporate things into VJing that go beyond knob twiddling. We as VJ's need to change the concept of what we do and how we are percieved if we don't want to continue working as club employees or A/V specialists. Do you think Marilyn Manson would be as huge if he came out onstage looking like Jon Mayer? VJ's are there to provide eye candy, but that can go beyond content.