general question about fees

[frosty]

hello

i'm a media artist working on a VJ performance system (basically software) that will hopefully be new and compelling ;-)

for me part of the art is the performance, and i'm sure i'll end up doing some at home in budapest and here & there in the underground loungy world.

my question to all you seasoned VJ types is: what do VJ's get paid?

i don't intend to make a career of this, but assuming my performance is good and people like it, is it, say, realistic to expect that a gig in london should at least pay my expenses & a few pints?

is there some sort of standard in the club world as to how much a VJ ought to get paid? does it go by the crowd size? does it have some relation to the name-recognition of the DJ? do only famous people get paid?

anyway, don't get me wrong, i'm not in this for the money, i have a separate life. i'm just trying to figure out whether i should consider "gig in city X" as a break-even, a loss, or what.


thanks! i'll check back later. nice forum folks!


cheers

-- frosty

[brain]

hello frosty,

check the "business side" thread - you will find some information there. it's rather vague, you see there is no general line. most people didn't mention definite payments, maybe it's because they feel ashamed for how little money they play :)

i guess it will be hard to cover your travel expenses with just one gig if the promoters don't know you. try to play several places - still hard but maybe some london-based VJ will be helpful and share an evening with you if he likes what you are doing.

[hyperdimensional]

*****.

?67.50 p/h! :eek:

where did you invent that statistic?

If you charge that much as a fledgling vj you'd be pricing yourself out of the water before you've even begun.

[eXhale]

I doubt the "industry rate" is the same in Hungary or London than it is at Belfast... :rolleyes:

[InsideUsAll]

From my experience if you want to get work you should try your best to guage what the promoter can afford to pay, and charge him that much.

if your not bothered about getting work, and you want to succeed purely through the quality of your work alone. Think up a figure, and stick to it. But if you haven't got a contacts list as long as your arm or mates in the right places your gonna have a long wait.

Personally we charge whatever we think suits the budget of the night we're doing. Sometimes thats nothing, sometimes a few hundred quid.

good luck!

Dave

[eXhale]

Originally posted by *****
Vj or AV tech same job same desk, same controls.that's at the basis of the whole misunderstanding on this forum, but personnaly i think it makes more sense to make a comparison with DJs or musicians rather than AV service-oriented companies. there is simply no industry rate for DJs/musicians, they are paid depending on the demand (type of event, crowd-attraction factor, etc). having a fixed rate probably works well for you ***** but i honestly doubt it could work for everyone.

ps: i bet some of the most famous VJs have been paid more than ?67.5/hour too

[scarab]

Originally posted by InsideUsAll

Personally we charge whatever we think suits the budget of the night we're doing. Sometimes thats nothing, sometimes a few hundred quid.


right, we do the same....
but at least travel costs should be coverd. free beer is a must :D

[scarab]

what i also would recommend is to get as much gigs as possible to establish your name. make connections in your region (hungary, germany, austria->vienna is quite near no?) exchange some gigs with the people there.
from my own experience i have to say i spent a lot of money just to PLAY some gigs somewhere. that's how i/we got to play some gigs all over europe (the one in holland was the funniest, but also most expensive one:nod: ) i was willing to pay these expenses. i think that people in your direct surrounding always "understand" the stuff you are doing. the more you leave this same "development-horizont" your stuff will get more and more challenging for the audience. for me that's the reason why a lot of artist are not well known in their own town or country.


to put it in a nutshell: do what you want to do, but see that as many diffrent people as possible SEE your stuff. money will come by itself, but most important i think are the connections you have to make in this buisness..... and hey.. that's what this forum is for no?

[wellREDman]

frosty also be aware that your negotiations should include your "print prescence" (your name on flyers/posters ads etc., and how featured theyare within above) as this will go towards the long term aim of building your name and thus the price on future bookings

[PilotX]

If you're working with a promotor you trust, then a sliding scale based on how much they make on the night can be a useful tool for getting some money, and promotors love it cos it reduces their risk. It also allows you to make sure your costs are covered, and have space to increase the price you are charging later (assuming they get enough people through the door).

The other way for this to work is to drop your price on the night if they haven't had enough people in.
You will get asked back again if you do this. The promotor will love you for it. Even if they've lost ?200, and you give then back a tenner, they will appreciate it.

Now the only problem is finding a promotor you trust ;)

Tom
SyZyGy Visuals

[Amukidi]

Listen to ***** - he is talking sense, most gigs I do where there is a proper budget, I get paid ?250 for a 4 hour set, Expenses on top of that and a free bar tab. I've done a few for expenses and beer, but these tend to be for people I know and like!!! An old story my Grandfather told me when I first started selling paintings: (he owned a shop)
He had a box of tights (pantyhose, for the international audience) on his counter. Priced at ?1 sterling they didn't sell. He put the price up to ?2 and they all went in 2 days! Moral? Go figure!

[KillingFrenzy]

I don't know about the "standard" idea, but a little bit of price fixing with your local VJs never hurt. Promoters will fib about what they've been quoted by your friend to get you to lower your price.

If the promoter has money, don't feel bad about quoting a full rate. Especially don't feel bad about doing this on a prime day like a saturday night. If they don't do well on a particular night, they should still be able to cover you. If they had done incredibly well, they wouldn't be giving you a bonus.

If you know the situation isn't going to be profitable, but you would like to establish a relationship, then offer to do the show for free with a verbal contract to have you do the next high-paying show for full price. Just request parking, drinks, etc... so you don't end up losing money. I'd rather do one show for free, and another for full price than lower my asking price for the promoter, or have him try and talk me down at the end of the night. Being firm about your price, but giving the promoter a "gift" free show now and then will keep you from always being in a haggling relationship.
I had one promoter who was only willing to pay half my regular price for his regular club night. I gave him the option of just having me show up with a minimal setup. He had an upper limit on his price, and was happy with this compromise. Later, he had me do full price single shows with my full setup. In this case, I held on my price for a full show, but came up with a lower price alternative.

The thing I've learned over time is to be arbitrary and be happy about it. Just make sure to communicate clearly and if possible get in writing the "contract." The most uncomfortable situation you can get into is a misunderstanding.

[kyote]

allright-- sorry for the rant... its late or early depending on your point of view!

tough question- here is how i figure it out- (what I need vs. what I can get)
this is a rough estimate....

Creative people HATE to think about this stuff- but we would be better served if we did... its the same calculations other business and professionals use to determine their rates-- you are no different-- your work has value and you should be paid for it... this isn't a charity shop your running eh?
OK in a nut shell...

1) How much do you need/want for the year. (expenses + living + insurance - travel costs etc...whatever)
+
2) Your investment amortized over two years (or one depending on your tax system) ALWAYS deduct your equipment and source costs... it adds up!.

/ 30 hour work week or so, it changes depending on how many workable hours you have....
=
4)rough hourly rate... get a range thats pretty flexible

That is what you need to make per hour to reach your goal.. right?

My rate goal is at least $250 per hour, so I charge around $1,500-$2,100 (big spread i know) per night. Sometimes I get more, sometimes less, but I know if I am offered $500 I am loosing money, so the choice is mine right? That is the important outcome of this exercise.. know when you are losing money or breaking even... that way you can make better decisions about gigs.

Our gear costs $$... our time is limited, and we need to live (not in squaller)

You have to at least rough out what your worth and don't be shy about it. Doctors and Accountants and dentists always charge for their knowledge and skills..

you dont know any of them who say "try my services and if you want to, pay me next time..." it just doesn't happen, so why do WE do that? it belittles our collective worth. Because we are artists does not mean our product isn't worth anything.

This is helpful if you want to understand why your working so much and still broke--- get it? your not charging enough... Trust me- you need to sit down and do the math for yourself to at least know what number your comfortable with. Took me three years of working broke before i figured it out, now I know what I have to 'bring in' to live at the level I need to live at.

And I know- there may be folks who do it on the cheap.. shame on them, let them go broke and work on your art.. GET PAID what you NEED and then some... but be smart about it. Peace!
Kyote