Midi Scratch Pad?

[syzygy]

We're really getting into video scratching with MidiVid and a midi controller but the slider that we are using at the moment is not the easiest of ways to get the full range of scratch effects that we are looking for.

What we really want is rotational midi controller that is like the scratch pads that you get on modern DJ CD players - a flat rubber pad that can be rotated freely. (The value would have to loop back down to 0 after passing 255 and vice versa)

If we had one, we'd be able to scratch and loop our video at the same time (with a slider, looping is very tricky to say the least)

Anyone got any suggestions for such a controller (or a midi rotational controller that could be butchered into such a thing)

Cheers,

Dan.

(SyZyGy Visuals)

[syzygy]

Originally posted by syzygy
(The value would have to loop back down to 0 after passing 255 and vice versa)


...or rather it should loop back down after passing 127 :o

Dan.

(SyZyGy Visuals)

[robotfunk]

I bought a yamaha SU10, which is the cheapest device I could find that has a MIDI ribbon controller. Cost me about $100 second hand. Its does not rotate in any way its just a strip where you can scratch with your fingernail as it were. Very similar movement, only just with your nail. I use this to scratch video in flowmotion.

[MoRpH]

Screw midi, get a DM2 or COmmandpost (both have controllers similar to what you describe) and one of the apps that will soon support them :)

[syzygy]

Originally posted by MoRpH
Screw midi, get a DM2 or COmmandpost (both have controllers similar to what you describe) and one of the apps that will soon support them :)

Yeah, but MidiVid won't (it's strictly midi only) and we haven't found any other software that gives us the sort of midi clip triggering playing that we need for our shows.

Everything else that we have tried has too much latency or just doesn't work in the way that we need (one clip per midi note with the ability to define various settings on a note by note basis). (I'm going to post to the software forum about our requirements to see if there is anything out there...)

So, anyone got any suggestions for midi controllers that might do this? Anyone know a way to turn the input from one of these USB controllers into MIDI control codes?

Dan.

(SyZyGy Visuals)

[MoRpH]

Hmmmm possibly use MidiOX to convert what ever you can get form it into midi???

Or write a directIput to midi convertor :)

[LEVLHED]

is the Surface One the kind of thing you might be looking for?

[hamageddon]

the only midi device with scratchdisk i know, sold it b4 i realised its potential for video scratching. and yes, the disk
sends out midicontrollers, boohooo....:(

http://www.sonicstate.com/synth/images/dj-70mkii.jpg

[syzygy]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
is the Surface One the kind of thing you might be looking for?

Just had a look and the surface one looks very cool but doesn't look like it has the sort of rotational controller we are looking for.

It needs to be a pad rather than a knob and it needs to rotate freely (rather tham limited to 360 degrees)

It does look like a pretty flexible controller though...

Dan.

(SyZyGy Visuals)

[PilotX]

Just got a Yamaha DJX-IIB on a weeks trial from a music shop, as it has a scratch pad just as we wanted.
But it only outputs midi clock, and does not let you output midi signals from the scratch pad. :(
I'm not going to review this for VJC as its basically just an audio toy. but there is no way of controlling the midi output from it, unless someone has the knowledge to butcher the scratch pad onto a full midi output.

Unfortunately this is going back to the shop, and so it can't be tried.

Hoping that a DJ-70 pops up nice and cheap somewhere soon.
Tom
SyZyGy Visuals

[PilotX]

sorry - meant to post a pic of the DJX so you could avoid it.

Its here instead :) http://www.sonicstate.com/synth/images/djxiiba.gif

(the scratchpad is the CD on the bottom right. Free floating 360degree and continue around control.)

[elbows]

I have one of those I bought it for a laugh a year or so ago, but when I realised its midi limitations I gave up, I dont think it would be at all easy to butcher it to give useable midi stuff, would be easier to design something from scratch :(

[PilotX]

Thats a shame. It's got exactly the kind of control we'd like. The DJ70 that Hamageddon suggested stopped production 5 years ago, and they don't seem to have produced another with this control.

Gonna speak to some big shops, and see if they can suggest anything later this week, so if we turn something up we'll let you know.


Tom
SyZyGy Visuals

[MoRpH]

Just heard back from the m-audio/midiman ppl, seems the Surface one release date has been pushed back again to early 2003 :(

[elbows]

To be honest Im always rather suspicious when dates are pushed back like that!

Regarding the yamaha thing, I will pull mine apart tomorrow and test what kind of electronic mechanism is providing the scratch disc, and whether its pheasable to use it. I cant think of a way of doing it without breaking the original functionality of the yamaha though.

[LEVLHED]

I think they keep pushing the release date back because the "NASA shit" they use in in fact alien technology(skin?) and there's a grand conspiracy to withold the benefits of this device from us for reasons best left unsaid in this public forum.


.RE: yamaha HACK

fuck it, its a toy anyway..doesn't it run on batteries?
type in "circuit bending" on google and you'll see its perfectly OK to risk destroying it in order to create something uniquely beautiful...

[PilotX]

Go on... you know you want to ;)

I don't really know much on the technical side, but will the scratch pad emit a midi controller at any point? Presumably it will output one within the machine, so if you can get through the box cleanly and take out the power supply, do you think you could unhook the scratch pad and patch it onto a midi cable or do you need a processor in between?

I'm thinking that the pad and PS could be recased afterwards.

Obviously I've got an interest here but it would be good if it could be done.

Tom
SyZyGy Visuals

[elbows]

Well I havent had a chance to open it yet, but basically I assume that the scratch pad itself will just output a different voltage or current depending on its position, and this will be hooked directly into some bespoke electronics within the device. Midi isnt normally used for internal communication inside devices, unfortunately. So probably I wont actually gain much from butchering it, best case is that I can rip out the phyical part and connect it to my I-CubeX midi box.

SO what Im trying to say is that the mission is fairly pointless, it would be nearly as easy to invent something from scratch, but I'll investigate fruther anyway just so we know.

The other thing Im thinking is how exactly the scratching movement would be best translated into midi data. Midi continuous controller data isnt totally perfect for this application really. I see what you said earlier about it looping back to zero, but I still wonder in practise whether this would give the best scratching effect. I need to think more about this, its certainly not going to offer the same kind of effect as scratching vinyl, but maybe that wouldnt matter for what you want I dunno.

[KillingFrenzy]

Seems liked you'd want to work with velocity, instead of position data. So position1-position2/time vs just position. That way you could spin it around properly instead of having it jump back to 0, or be limited to a small span.

[PilotX]

Currently we use a (small) slider controller on our midi keyboard, which I believe outputs MIDI controller values, and does not seem to be controlled by velocity.
It works pretty well, moving up and down gives a good scratch effect, but it is small and awkward to use, and you cannot loop a clip, which could presumably be done with a controller with the action of that scratch pad.

Maybe your I-Cube hardware can provide a better solution...

Tom
SyZyGy Visuals

[monsho]

...anyone know if this thing would be able to control video scratching in resolume?

http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/powermate/index.html

looks a lovely bit of kit and it would be nice if it was useful!!

[syzygy]

Originally posted by PilotX

Maybe your I-Cube hardware can provide a better solution...



Yes - ICubeX looks like it might provide a solution to what we are looking for. They don't do exactly the sort of rotational controller that we are looking for but we coudl build a custom controller and get the ICubeX to translate voltages to Midi.

The midi controller we are using at the moment really does give a good effect - 127 positions seems to be enough for good short scratching. We just need a controller that will let us loop as well as scratch.

Dan.

(SyZyGy Visuals)

[elbows]

OK unfortunately Ive not found the time to look inside the Yamaha yet, but in terms of electronics to turn your own sensors into midi controllers, found this nice cheap solution:

http://www.doepfer.de/pe.htm

So thats the problem of the I-CubeX being expensive eliminated :)

[syzygy]

Originally posted by elbows
OK unfortunately Ive not found the time to look inside the Yamaha yet, but in terms of electronics to turn your own sensors into midi controllers, found this nice cheap solution:

http://www.doepfer.de/pe.htm

So thats the problem of the I-CubeX being expensive eliminated :)

Looks like a good alternative to the ICubeX for what we need.

So, in addition to this, all we'll need to build our own controller is a freely rotating potentiometer that resets back down when it rotates 360 degrees.

Anyone know of such a thing offhand or do I need to trawl Maplins etc for the beasty we need?

Dan.

(SyZyGy Visuals)

[Opcod]

Hi,


So i'm planning to make my own circuit with a Pic controller or just bought the doepfer oem... For Scratching, i'm planning to use 4 fader and 11 pots and 1 cross-fader from a Dj Mixer, Like a Numark or anything... So you can adjust easily and got the full flexibility like to scratch music with it.

A+

[PilotX]

looks like the EJ scratch system might solve our problem:

http://www.vjcentral.com/news/show/2393

If someone here gets one of the beta tests, let us know how it works.
Still going to try to build one first, as space tends to be at a premium for our live gigs, but this might be fine, if the price is right.

Tom

[Meierhans]

I got an idea how to solve this problem with an easy to build DIY solution.
You all know the inside of a mechanical mouse??

These little wheels that give the impulses??
Why not solder them out and connect em with some cables to the original electronics.

Then take an old turntable, open it and connect the thing out of the mouse to the motor. (Or build something in place of the motor with the small wheel connected to its axis)

If you scratch on it now, the small wheel will turn andl send impulses to the mouse electronic, this will analyse them and give them to your PC in a very good known format: Mouse movements.
You could even build a second turntable using the second axis.

Now you can either translate the data to midi by something like a converter (there must be something like that, shouldn`t be to hard to program either for a good programmer), or use a program like Vjo that supports mouse as virtual input device.

Directly working with the mouse data got the big advantage of much higher resolution.

By setting up the sensitivity (/"playing at FPS" in Vjo) you can even make it loop several times. (not infinite!)

If you want to make it VERY easy: Take an optical mouse and mount it upside down under something you can turn.
This also looks flashy

;)

[MoRpH]

Hmmmm if I'm not mistaken I think some one was already doing exactly that with the mouse thing Meierhans.... not sure if they posted it here or eyecandy though

[Meierhans]

Cool!
Are there any specs? Would be nice to know the upcoming problems before I start building something like that.

[differing]

Maybe you should try the DM2 mixer it has two large scratch wheels and trigger buttons in the wheels for clips, and the best thing is it is only £50 quid
the first link is for usb midi controller the second link is to make it midi compatable.

Happy scratching!!!




http://www.mixman.com/products/dm2.html

http://www.pdoom.ch/dm2/

[mowgli]

what's going on today??
This thread is 6 years old!!!!!!!

[Mudo]

...
Hi People,
check this:
http://www.mspinky.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=864

Maybe is that your are looking for?


;)
...