Taking VJing to a wider audience

[d3si9ner]

Hey,

I'm an Industrial Design student currently designing under the brief "sound" for a national competion. I wanted to look at AV because it's the next obvious path for entertainment to follow. I want to try to get Vjing recognised as a dedicated format of entertainment, like music, video, gaming etc. Problem is I don't know much about the technology, and I ain't really got much experience of decent VJs in action; I just really like the idea of it all. I may be way off the mark here, but from what I've seen, VJing needs to be taken to a wider audience and become more accesable to ordinary music fans in their own homes. Instead of putting a music album on when you having a party imagine putting an AV album on, now that would be a party, no? I need to encapsulate this in a product WHICH IS AFFORDABLE!, just some kind of dvd player with great speakers and a projector, affordable?hmm. I need some feeback from you guys though. What else do I need to think about. And how can I make this thing cheap???

[Fibre]

The way i see it the main problem with av abums going into the mainstream is the screens. I don't think your average joe is that intrested in buying a a av album and sitting and watching it on tv on a day to day basis. But as you say for partys and such like i think there would be a big interest. Alot of people have dvd players hooked up to hifi's already but projectors are still too expensive to be household items at the moment. If you could develop a projector or projector alternative cheaply i think it would be a winner. Costs could be cut by offering a product with lower resolutions i suppose.
Just an idea but what about a kit that allows home users to build a video wall out of old tv's themselves? I don't know enough about the technology involved in spliting a signal so different parts of the image are on different tv's - could that be developed cheapy anyone?

[holly]

Hrmmm. No one here has ever had these thoughts before!:P :D :help:

Here are a few catagories that the VJ market has broken down into:

content resource (what do VJs need/want to show?)
software development (new VJ apps appear every season)
playback devices (dvd, harddisc, clip servers)
live devices (camera, mixer, fx box, monitor, sampler)
presentation (beamer, plasma, tv column, webstream, lcd wall, dvd album)
marketing (live events, documentary, magazine/newspaper article, contests)
representation (booking agents, touring, hi-profile events, pr-publicity, contract negotiation)
tech resource (store, knowledgebank, archive, web forums, workshops)

Which are you interested in? I'm sure if you were to make a major break-thru in any of these areas all VJs would appreciate it.
:yep:

[seex]

Hmmm, Holly you dont mention the music industy as part of the vj markets. I think that a dvd will soon take over the cd. I mean the prodiction costs are almost the same (or the same) but there is so many options when it comes to content. It is stupid to think that if a you buy a dvd of your favorite band you will only be able to wach it on a tv. its the logic of saying if you have an ash tray in your car you shuld use it, and why dont cars have chimnys then?

Anyway i think that the avaredge joe will soon buy only one device to play his cds, dvds, dvixs, jpegs and mp3s. This is a cheaper option and will soon take over the home entertainment industry.

So to answer, d3si9ner, i dont think that the future is in one device only, tough a fun concept i think there will be three main parts: The screen (tv or projector) the audio (amp and a few spekers) and a unit to play all you formats on. Also a part to store all your media. As you need to place the projector and speakers into space (according to some rules) i dont see them as a part of the same unit.

[holly]

Originally posted by seex
Hmmm, Holly you dont mention the music industy as part of the vj markets. I think that a dvd will soon take over the cd. I mean the prodiction costs are almost the same (or the same) but there is so many options when it comes to content.
I don't consider making "music videos" to be VJing. Certainly a music video could be made for each and every song on an album, but I'd hate to see VJs become low-rent video production alternatives. 2 things would happen: VJs would stop focusing on live-mix, and (more likely) existing video producers would sell a band 2 or 3 real videos for the singles, and the rest of the album would become cheap filler done on VJ apps, not by VJs but by a lacky intern at the video production company. It is the nature of most industries to find the cheapest alternative (remember: the music industry replaced LPs with CDs because they are cheaper to make, not because they sound better! Lots of formats sound better than LP but that didn't make the industry embrace them). If DVDs replaced CDs as the dominant music distribution format, certainly we could all find jobs making fast and cheap music videos, but it's not the same thing as gigging live. It's not VJing.

I think it would be more likely that your future DVD player (or multi-format A/V media device) will have some sort of built-in audiovisualizer chip so it could make random dynamic visuals all on its own. Anybody remember CD+G? It was a CD with an encoded graphic track for karaoke or extra visual content. My first Pioneer CDJ has a CD+G video line out, and I think I actually have a CD+G disc somewhere, but I never bothered to hook it up and see what it was all about. It would be cool if instead of CD+G, music discs were distributed with encoded files that could feed the audiovisualizer chip (band logos, design parameters, mpg4-type virtual puppet commands, etc). Set up the your preferences with the chip, load it up with your own content (pics of your cat, happy little slogans, favorate colors and design parameters) and when a song has extra visual content the chip will add that into the bot-mix.

Originally posted by seex
It is stupid to think that if a you buy a dvd of your favorite band you will only be able to wach it on a tv. its the logic of saying if you have an ash tray in your car you shuld use it, and why dont cars have chimnys then? Um... I don't get the car/chimney analogy (perhaps it works better as "It's the logic of saying if you smoke a cigarette you need a car with an ashtray..."??? I'm still not sure what you are getting at....

But suppose you had an iPod or a portable satellite player with a built in screen. These could have the same audiovisualizer chip so it's blinking in your handbag, or it might have a video out to hook up to the TV or 3D wall or whatever. Maby it has a cable to hook up to your clothes (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=9303).

I would argue that a bot on a chip which can take content from the song and mix it dynamicly with your own parameters is closer to the spirit of VJing than pre-recorded music videos.
:love2:

[seex]

I never heard of such a chip, sounds interesting but dont we end up with random visuals like those produced by itunes or winamp.

Im not tlaking about music videos, that is a diferent market. A music video is made for the tv while visuals on a dvd wuld only be produced for home entertainment. Its basicaly a diference in budget and royaalties. In a few jears a avaredge viever will be able to tell the diference betwene a high cost production video clip and visuals made in low res.

It is true that this will compromise the live performance element that is so exting in visuals, but i think that this is enevitable. The music industry is still trying hard to make a product that wuld diferentiate from a downloaded mp3 and adding visuals is on that pat.

Hmmm i just got an idea (im going to bouild a chmney...). On a dvd you culd have a virtual video mixer that wuld enable you to mix and apply effects to the clips provided. As an option one culd watch the edited version by playing on a dvd player but when viewing on a computer one culd install a small exe and remix the A/V content. Maybe a standard chip wuld be even better, than a dvd wuld provide content for that chip.

The car ashtray and chimney anology was a coment on fibres post. If you have a option to do something it doesent mean you actualy have to do it (if a music album is issued on dvd you can still listen to it and switch the tv off)

[rickmaersk]

d3si9ner
it looks like you are trying to make VJing something it isn't in order to contrive a design brief.

Do some research here and read some old threads. I can only think of 1 VJ specific item of hardware ( the Edirol V4 mixer). This is a standard vision mixer with some nice added features and the option to set it up with a DJ style cross fader. You could argue (someone will) that the Pioneer DVD decks are VJ only kit although they appear to have been developed with the "playing pop promos in a club" market in mind and their use to VJs is a spin off.

All the other kit that VJs use- projectors, screens, computers, distribution amps, mixers, monitors etc are marketed to a large number of industries and just happen to suit our needs.

If you read the reviews and posts you'll see that their is a healthy but small market for VJ software. This might indicate a product that you could design.

If you really want to design a VJ specific item then a better mixer than a V4 would be a challenge. I'm sure lots of people would suggest ideas for the design brief. The XGA mixer threads will give you some pointers.

If you forget about the home virtual VJ type idea and just link up with some real VJs you might find there is something useful you could design. As far as it being cheap as well....

good luck

rick

[holly]

Originally posted by seex
Im not tlaking about music videos, that is a diferent market. A music video is made for the tv while visuals on a dvd wuld only be produced for home entertainment. Its basicaly a diference in budget and royaalties. In a few jears a avaredge viever will be able to tell the diference betwene a high cost production video clip and visuals made in low res. Yes, that is what I don't want to see: VJs creating filler for the non-hits on an album. VJs becoming "b market" or low-rent alternatives to "real" music video production. A music video that is produced to promote a song on MTV costs tens or even hundreds of thousands of $$$. VJing the rest of the album would cost the label maybe $2000 or possibly $5000 depending on your reputation (basically the same as a good gig that you would make original content for).

I think the goal for most of these "former VJs" would be to get better and better at their production skills until the line between the "real" promo videos and the filler vids on the rest of the album is blurred.... The goal from the vid artist would be to eventually crossover and get the main promo video gig, meanwhile the goal of the recording industry would be to get a good looking promo video at the cost of a VJ.... As a vj/artist I could handle doing filler content on an album each month for $10,000, but you think people complain about bottomfeeding now, just wait until it's the huge budgets of video producers that are threatened!
:scared:

Originally posted by seex
I never heard of such a chip, sounds interesting but dont we end up with random visuals like those produced by itunes or winamp.
....
On a dvd you culd have a virtual video mixer that wuld enable you to mix and apply effects to the clips provided. As an option one culd watch the edited version by playing on a dvd player but when viewing on a computer one culd install a small exe and remix the A/V content. Maybe a standard chip wuld be even better, than a dvd wuld provide content for that chip.

There was some talk about VJing on a Sony playstation? a while back.... That would be a great format for a VJ "game". The visual/processor is top notch and it is DVD/CD ready, plus it is within reach of most teens budgets.... iTunes and Winamp are probably most people's introduction to VJing these days, so as a tool to "take VJing to a wider audience" they are actually very successful. They show that people do like bot-visuals, but want to keep them changing, constaintly download new plugins, etc. Plus the most important aspect is loading it up with your favorite music.

ARKAOS is probably the most famous VJ app.... Don't they still have that ARKAOS VISUALIZER (http://www.arkaos.net/software/vis_description.php) where you can load up other people's ARKAOS sets to a free player? I think I tried to use that too a long time ago but it was crash-y. Maybe osX is more stable.... Anyway, something like that where you have a free player everyone can use, and a premium product that lets you make the downloads would be cool.

[Rovastar]

I don't know about inside DVD players atm but the new PC media stations http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/mediacenter/default.mspx

that play music,dvd's etc and the OS is more in tune for people with remote controls and menu systems. If it makes it as a successful product then the graphical hardware is built in for such auto vis stuffs.

The ARKAOS VISUALIZER scares me.............

[seex]

I think that one of the aspects of digitalisation and internet is definetly a drop in prices and qality. From my own perspective as a photographer i can testify that when bit of mystifaction was still possible prices were much better, now days i have to compete with some weekend photographer who goes round explaining how simple everything is....

It is also naive to assume that it will actualy be the vj who will do the rest of the non hits. Probably the production company who will get the contract to create one or two high budget clips will also get the contract to do the rest of them for a small bonus. They will already have tons of unused footage from the two clips they were actualy conctracted to do and also the visuals on the album wuldl have a more unifiead look to them.

[visualove]

Some very perceptive comments on this thread...

If you are trying to design the home AV player appliance, projectors continue to drop in price as the volume goes up. In Asia, poeple don't have big screen TV's at home, their rooms are too small, so they get out the projector when they want to watch TV or a video. Combine a projector with a wireless link to the player amp and a wireless link to the speakers and you have a system that is easy to install or move.

Game platforms are a great base for VJ apps because the HW is cheap and designed for graphics performance. Responsive programmable video, "super winamp", is a great idea and a logical development which will happen.

The music inductry is increasingly shifting from CD's to to DVD music+visuals, be it high production cost music videos, concert video, also expensive to produce, credited VJ production a'la Oakenfold's voyage into trance. At least the visualist, Yo Suzuki-Love Mushroom, got credit. Finally there are the filler VJ visuals mentioned, hopefully credited and probably produced at low cost. To get those jobs, the footage has to be cleared, so might be a good idea to learn Maya or other content systhesis apps.

[ToxicOrange]

Good afternoon there, just a quick thought on a previous piece of DVD hardware that I am still hunting for (for the sheer delight it can cause). A Mr Jeff Minter (creator of the kick a$$ Tempest on Jaguar) also as we may know is heavily into visualisation, and created the VLM (virtual light machine) for a DVD player named NUON.

I've tried but to no avail to locate one of these but (unless i'm misunderstanding the question) might be of use to you. Essentially a sound to light, hardware based player that is quite simply stunning to watch.

He was also working on a gamecube game called Unity, which imho is the sole reason im going to purchase said console but alas it's been pulled due to longevity of the console ... but do have a look at how it was coming along for some quite simply stunning visuals (these were from a game!?!!)

The Nuon though would be the easiest way to play a cd and get visuals. (not to be confused though with anything mixed live as all of these people on this forum are without a doubt driving me to use my V4 better n better!)

Happy xmas all, and here to a better 2005.


Tony

(ToxicOrange)



*edited cos with all this xmas cheer i forgot to add the links ! (doh!)



The sad news on Unity (http://www.yakyak.org/viewforum.php?f=26&sid=d796a58a375b73e442c97094acc45692)

Nuon dome (http://www.nuon-dome.com/)

(HIC)