Future for VJing as we know it.

[Rovastar]

As regular poster to these boards VJ Britney said at AVIT week he see the future of VJ'ing to be involved with AV performances. I understand AV to mean working with the audio and seamlessly providing video and audio like a sample of a dog barking and a dog appears on the screen and barks, etc, etc.

Do you think that the AV is the future for VJ's?

And if it is the future than where does that leave the the current DJ market? as to me this implies that the DJ market is dead as if it were alive then the traditional VJ's future sure can look more positive?

(VJ brit - :) talk about biting the hand that feeds you.:);):p)

Surley now more events are having visuals not less then say 2 years ago. Are you feeling more postive about the scene now for the normal club/festival market or less so?

[Primebase3]

Eboman , is the best example of that mixing visuals and the sound to one big whole , don't see it as the future though , the technique has been around for so long.

[elbows]

More positive because punters expect to see visual more now, and because the technology has come down in price to make better things more afforable

Less positive because superstar dj's and superclubs in general are on the decline

I took interest in his comments about AV, because it is something Im interested in myself, and to me it is far nicer to create content that matches the music.

But, on the otherhand this starts to make VJ'ing more like producing music videos, which is hardly something new.

In conclusion I think a lot of it depends what the clubs do next in their evolution, if DJ's decline and theres some kind of change to more live electronic bands performing, then his view of the future makes sense. On the otherhand Im well aware that some VJ's here that work in the non-club scene (ie festivals, live musicians on stage etc) so this may already be a reality for them.

If things like the Hippotizer suceed, and clubland continues to decline then I see a bigger squeeze on your club-dj-style-vj, but I cant predict how bad it will get. On a personal level I really want to do visuals for live musicians, and it seems that there is potentially more money in this field :D

[eXhale]

It's true that, if A/V acts become more popular, some VJs will "take" the work of DJs but I also think it will go the other way around, with DJs/musicians starting to integrate visuals in their music. It is no coincidence if two DJ magazines are supposed to make articles on VJing soon :nod:

[LEVLHED]

I believe A/V acts are whats going to bring the art of VJing "too the next level". That is, make it more popular in general. I also think this (in the short term anyway) will be where any significant amount of money/stardom for VJs will come. It just makes sense that integrated A/V acts are the natural evolution of what we are doing now. This isn't to say that a "add-on" VJ like we see now will be obsolete, though. But I think you would be wise to keep your eyes/mind open to teaming up with a DJ/Live P.A./Band in the near future....

[Primebase3]

hmmz the av style is cool but then you should present in a band or a dj sort of way : check out www.eboman.com

hey the man works like ebn and the like with visuals mixed to music. I don't see it as future but a "genre" though you got to be in both things (music and video)

[vjpixylight]

Yes, Yes, and Yes...
I have seen the writing on the wall, but for different reasons...
I had noticed that the VJ pay per performance, (with a few exceptions) is basically the same both here in the States, as well as in Euroland, and reasoned that the only way to get to the 500 dollars/euros a gig level is to combine the DJ with the VJ.....
Hence the future is a guy, or girl, that can do both...
With the advent of MP3's, and VJ softs to mix them, I believe that VJing will eventually turn into Media Jockeying, and both DJ's and VJ's will be doing it...(I noticed in Euro there are more and more DJ's mixing there sets from Mini-discs, CD's, and MP3's)...
So my friends..I would be willing to bet that within the next year or 2, this will be the new media that will be the way we get our underground and club entertainment...

Of course I could be wrong, but I think not....

[Primebase3]

again technique , is a magic word with the guys on this forum? why never presentation , marketing etc etc then the 500 euro/dollar mark sounds like a walk in the park (it's our starting rate :D)

clubbing will stay only the music will change if not with a dj then with a band. as long as people will come together somewhere to have good time vjing as we know it can only grow

about the av bizzness if you have a vid like "timber" where the sounds and visuals react on time AND are presented well then it can work Coldcut does it0 but only in a show kind of way if you do it clubwise for 5 hours straight you;ll get epileptic.


Ps: FUCK TECHNIQUE!!! CONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTC ONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCO NTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENTCONTENT








:rolleyes: back to work :)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Primebase3
Eboman , is the best example of that mixing visuals and the sound to one big whole , don't see it as the future though , the technique has been around for so long.

then

Originally posted by Primebase3

again technique , is a magic word with the guys on this forum? why never presentation , marketing etc etc then the 500 euro/dollar mark sounds like a walk in the park (it's our starting rate ) .

it was you that used the word ya eejit .
wat chu smokin ?....

[vjpixylight]

I am not saying that 500 euro's is unreal, but I ment per person, with no gear of your own except media, and maybe a lappy or two..
I am glad to hear that a fewof you can get that kind of cabbage, but I wonder if you are making a living at it, and if so, does it have to be in the london where everything is so damn expensive???

[vjpixylight]

Hahaha maybe he got some of the DMT from the toad by internet osmoasis...:)

[Primebase3]

sorry forgot to qoute : but 9 out of ten times on this forum it starts of with a basiq querie and 9 out of ten times it comes back to tech jargon

-----------------------------------------------------------

With the advent of MP3's, and VJ softs to mix them, I believe that VJing will eventually turn into Media Jockeying, and both DJ's and VJ's will be doing it...(I noticed in Euro there are more and more DJ's mixing there sets from Mini-discs, CD's, and MP3's)...
So my friends..I would be willing to bet that within the next year or 2, this will be the new media that will be the way we get our underground and club entertainment...
------------------------------------------------------------


I don't need a complete explanation all the time what gear tech specs : is the vj/dj goed or not , what's his style etc etc ..

sorry tired .

[Primebase3]

another ps: the technique I think is gonna catch storm is that Rez game from sega imagine a club where everyone is involved with the sight and sound...


ok now I'm smoking

[krezrock]

yea, too bad it's trance. bleh.

[unjulation]

i know that play station 1 ran a tour a good few years ago, personaly i found it a bit gimiky, it is interaction in a sence but it always seemd a shame to afect people's hightend consicesnes in that way, but then again i'm a awarness fashist, :), if you have people in an open space then why feed them gunk food when you can feed them gormaut, mind comeing from a eyecandy, possibly hidden mesage type of space person what room do i have to talk, lol :)

so ware is it going?
ware do people whant it to go?

to me what its all about is that inderviduals can take this to warever they whant it to, whant to go the corperate line make loades of mony and be regergateded as the next best thing, we can do that,
whant to be totaly true to your principals, be true to your belifes, be the penyless artist, hay we can do that to

its up to us, you, me, to create what us, you, me, whant

dont belive the hype you realy are that good :)

[dervesh]

I'm new to VJing but am already a successful underground DJ and I see the whole AV thing as the future of DJing (at least for myself). So I'm one of those coming from the 'other side'.

I actually believe that recorded material media (CD, VINYL etc) and the big record companies are on their last legs now. They are desperately trying to use their legal might to fight MP3 servers but the fact of the matter is that CD sales are dropping exponentially every year and theres nothing they can really do about it. When people can download perfect quality sounds off the internet for free, sooner or later the recording industry is going to have to give in. At that point, the recorded stuff will only serve the purpose of being free (but good quality) promotional material and live performances will be where the artists will actually get paid. So AV performances will become even more important then as will extended tunes that can only be heard live and not downloaded.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by dervesh
sooner or later the recording industry is going to have to give in. At that point, the recorded stuff will only serve the purpose of being free (but good quality) promotional material and live performances will be where the artists will actually get paid. So AV performances will become even more important then as will extended tunes that can only be heard live and not downloaded.



is that so?....

So who's gonna fund the studio's then? DJ superdude? or dinosaurs like Cliff richard?
Good quality? I Havent heard an undeground track yet that had quality production other than casio sounding Midi bollox. Mp3 is so fucked by compression that its pityfull.
Why is it always DJs who are last to realise that The record companys gamble on artists, fund them and take the losses on the shyte that fails. but so many underground Djs wanna say is the guys that proved worth the gamble where ripped off.
MP3 to save the world... yeah right, MP3.com. Go wade through it. listen to the shyte thats to crap for release. while the record stores and chart polls suffer and quality work can no longer get get funding.. create your track lol and if its good enough to hit a million homes, how sweet to know you'll still be playing for wages when you kill the industry that would have asked only there percentage for having backed ya as a nobody.

How quick ppl are to forget that it is the music industry that back and create stars from nobodys by plowing money and exposire their way, nobodys to Stars to tossers full off their own importance and claim that they are being robbed just cause they partied and snorted their cash away. (and ppl feel sorry for them)
If the record company take 90% its still fair. if you sign as a nobody and they pump a million of their money into you, EVEN ten percent is a fair return out of 10 million profit since ya hadnt a dime to start with. Ya take the deal or ya don't. 10% of ten million for doing what ya where gonna do anyways don't sound much JUST A HUNDRED THOUSAND quid clear and everythng else done for ya, but 10% of nothing lol. yeah right. and as it happens.. The deals are way higer than 10% in your favor.

AV can be downloaded already mate.. don't try to give it the artists will be better off routine when theft kills their livelyhood.
I can spend a year on a peice, and ?????? on equipment to make it perfect. then release only to have one fuckin thevin bastard put it online giveing it away and steal form me the possability of getting a payback on my time and investment..
Fuck your mentality on that... musicains spend years learning their craft, even DJs expect paid to play to cover buying the tracks. (or should I say used to since now its the craze to steal it on mp3( which btw is far from quality)).
How wonderfull your world will be when we can't do anything other than play live, when all recorded media can so easily be pirated onto the net.
nice logic, when the fans are all theives enjoying the work while the creators of the peice starve, all recorded media will suffer.

Let me clue ya up mate. dont speak for the artists, I copyright my work to prevent idealist bastards stealing it. as dos every artist that makes a commercial release. some of us do it independently others do it through labels by choice. your No friend to the artist. every artist that copyrights wants fuckers who steal pur work and give away free, nailed to the fuckin wall, and if the record companys can use there legal might to jail ya, shoot ya or fuckin drown ya... Im 100% behind it,, maybe thats not clear enough
for ya.. stealing others work is taking the food off their table. I get a bit funny about my food. I kinda need it to survive, if im givin it out its my choice. but stealin it from and givin it away brings out the primeval killer instinct.
Thevin bastards are their supporters are not welcome in my company.
if ya wanna give shit away free, make fuckin sure it yours to give and not mine.

back on topic.. theres the real future of VJin for ya guys. PPL playing shit they dont own at the expense of others.

FREELOAD SCUMBAGS

G

[That for the record CAN be called a rant]

[PilotX]

Originally posted by dervesh
At that point, the recorded stuff will only serve the purpose of being free (but good quality) promotional material and live performances will be where the artists will actually get paid.

I think it is heading this way already - anyone notice EMIs $80m deal with Robbie Williams? The money is not just for the CDs - EMI get a cut of live gigs, merchandising etc. as well. I can see more label deals going this way.
BTW, I was under the impression that live performances were the bread and butter of all but the biggest selling artists as royalties on music don't net you much money even when you write the music, unless you shift hundreds of thousands of units. Am I wrong here?

Tom
SyZyGy Visuals

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by PilotX



BTW, I was under the impression that live performances were the bread and butter of all but the biggest selling artists as royalties on music don't net you much money even when you write the music, unless you shift hundreds of thousands of units. Am I wrong here?

Tom
SyZyGy Visuals
naw man yer right. Thas where the record companys come in. They fund the gamble on your stuff being good enough to sell mega copys and handle the royalty issues. and thanks to their existing system public/chart exposure is easy, the rest is down to the public wanting it. Ya probably notice that White labels dont get the exposure they need zand can't justify mega pressings. must Whitelabel Dj releases are paid for by the DJ himself and the standard run is 1000 copies for mailing lists. Usually the only way the public can get a copy is by MP3, at that point the artist is shafted cause theres anybody who wants it has ripped it from the net .most times theres no way of finding the producer to even offer them a gig.
I have a hell of a problem finding any fault in the record companys methods. It starts with a Nobody with potential persuing them for backing and ends with a Mega star tosser bitching that the ppl that backed him are ripping him off.

I sugested a VHS tape of the boards VJs that we all could sell. to prevent others ripping copys I'd copyright it and set up a label.
Isrc reg for it would cost nothing and every participant would have the rights to copy a master and sell their stock..
The cost is time and OUR equipment. Imagine how yad feel after weeks of work that your product had no market because ppl are telling ya that they got it already of the net (in shyte quality) or some VJ oudercuting your fee to get your gig then showing up with a low rez downloaded copy of your release..
For now and the near future it looks like the money invested in the equipment you needed to produce your work can only be justified by NOT releasing anything, and staying with playing live. other wise ppl cpuld just download yer clips and be your show while charging less, since they have nothing to recoupe. even the softs would suffer.. why BY $800 of VJo if ya can down load the work of ppl that use it.. or why buy it if ya can get a cracked copy... its the same thing.. the same ppl justifying MP3 rippoffs also yell that software should be free.
.
Some future.:(

G

[PilotX]

Originally posted by *****


I have a hell of a problem finding any fault in the record companys methods. It starts with a Nobody with potential persuing them for backing and ends with a Mega star tosser bitching that the ppl that backed him are ripping him off.
G

The only thing I really dislike about record companies (apart from the shite some of them release - but thats a question of taste) is that they, and not the artist hold the copyright. I understand (and everyone should have learnt this from the Factory records debacle) that it is necessary to control this to secure income and therefore future recordings.

For those who don't know factory records by name, they released bands like Joy Division, New Order, Happy Mondays and many other good artists. But their 'contracts' (there were none really - just this one scrap of paper) stated only that the music was the property of the artists. When it got in trouble, it could not get any more money in by selling its backcatalogue or artists.
In defence of the bands, there were a number of albums/singles released in an attempt to make money to keep the label afloat. It didn't work. Factory is to be applauded for being more of an artistic enterprise and less of a business, but that, in the end, was its downfall. Is this the best way to do it, or do you want a label to be able to keep going?

Tom
SyZyGy Visuals

[syzygy]

Originally posted by *****


For now and the near future it looks like the money invested in the equipment you needed to produce your work can only be justified by NOT releasing anything, and staying with playing live. other wise ppl coud just download yer clips and be your show while charging less, since they have nothing to recoupe.


This doesn't worry me at all actually. The principal thing that promotors, DJs, bands and the audiences that we play to like about what we do is that we are there hammering a midikeyboard and riding the faders to 2 mixers to keep the visuals in keeping with the tunes.

For example - last night we did visuals for Ross Allen, who was playing an energetic housey set when he suddenly dropped into much slower hip-hop and garage sort of stuff. There is no way that a visuals tape could have bridged the gap betweeen the two musical styles but I reckon that we did a good job.

None of the 5 regular nights that we work at would replace us with recorded content - the promotors understand the effectiveness of visuals that are quite obviously controlled live,right down to bars and beats. The other events that we get booked for are on the basis of us providing a live show, not playing a tape.

Dan.

(SyZyGy Visuals)

[eXhale]

don't want to hijack this thread but...
Originally posted by *****
the same ppl justifying MP3 rippoffs also yell that software should be free.i'm supporting free open-source softwares not warez, that's the difference. but you seem to think that open-source softwares are somehow "wrong", because they don't involve any profits and are just the result of a community creating something together, like AVIT or vjcentral. true, we all have to find a way to make money but nonetheless i always find stuff made not for profit more enjoyable... have you ever experienced this or do you think there is no difference at all?

[eXhale]

To go back on topic, I've been wondering for some time what the future of music will be. Over decades there has been many new music movement with the most recent ones being due to technological improvement, so now that electronic music is being almost mastered by some, what's next? :p And I don't want to give ourselves too much importance but next might just be the fusion of all senses, and VJing would naturally be at the forefront of this new evolution. The biggest problem which could prevent something similar to happen is technology but then again "techno" was quite technological too (obviously).

PS: What a self-congratulating message! :rolleyes: ;)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by eXhale
but you seem to think that open-source softwares are somehow "wrong", because they don't involve any profits and are just the result of a community creating something together, like AVIT or vjcentral. true, we all have to find a way to make money but nonetheless i always find stuff made not for profit more enjoyable... have you ever experienced this or do you think there is no difference at all?

Hu? you doing that thinking for me thing again X? Your not getting any better at it.
NOT ONE POST OF MINE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE OWNER of something GIVING it AWAY.
don't put words in my mouth X and please don't continue to to label me with your misconceptions.
I have no problems with Free ware, Open source or any material freely givin by its owner. In the above posts your will find a reference to me having the right to give away my material,

and that my MAJOR issue is with ppl stealing it...
I also discover that I have a MAJOR issue with ppl implying that I have a point of view that is not supported by me or my posts...

Since its likely that you will find this offensive or posting that I should have a problem with you paraphreasing my post while changing what Ive said in to you interprectation,
I will make it clear that Im not insulting you. Im mearly objecting to you twisting my words.

And yes there is a diffrence. work i choose to do for free is totally diffrent form work I do for a living. as such I don't wnat the work I do for a living stolen.
Why would it be any different for anybody else?
G

Btw I wasnt refering to you re my comment on softs earlier... I guess I must have touched a nerve.

If the cap fits.....

[eXhale]

OK but on that old thread when I argued about Linux you were clearly not supporting it. But anyway if I was wrong, then all for the better.

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by eXhale
don't want to hijack this thread but...
...that open-source softwares are somehow "wrong", because they don't involve any profits...

...sorry to hijack som more...

who said open-source means non-profit?!!! :(

open-source means the source-code is made available along with the application - thereby guaranteing (more) transparency. it does NOT necessarily mean you're giving the product away for free nor that you're giving away the copyrights!

what you're talking about X is freeware!

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by *****


Don't have a problem with Linux. I said back then that its an example of the collective method not working. it could be the best OS in the universe, but since it wasnt well marketed it lost its chance.
I have no love for microsoft, but the one thing they did well was corner thier market. which proves that the Linux method didnt work.

G
WTF?????

you clearly have no understanding of any market other than the low end desktop home user. take web servers for example

Developer UsersAug2002 Percent

Apache 11001650 66.64
Microsoft 4074058 24.68
iPlanet 208968 1.27
Zeus 184143 1.12



then take a look at the SGI linux boxes that they did the titanic effects on
or nokia phones which run on embedded linux
or MAC OSX which is entirly based on freeBSD and is now the only platform that AVID are to support.... the list goes on and on - basicaly look at anything that actually needs to work and you'll find a system that is based on open solutions - even micro$oft have been found guilty of stealing code from the linux community and blackboxing it into winblows DLLs

[eXhale]

It's not because Linux isn't the world's most popular OS that it is a "failure"... Forget competivity and "market share", the Linux community is only here to provide a quality open-source OS which happens to be much more stable than Windows will ever be. VJC and VJF are both running on Linux and the server hasn't been rebooted for about 18 months.

Besides if Linux was a failure, Microsoft wouldn't consider it as its #1 enemy ;)

[elbows]

Well to me the problem with this Microsoft Linux comparison is that Microsoft dominated the market many years before Linux existed. In key areas where Linux can win (like security) it is starting to beat Microsoft. Also as there are many commercial companies which sell theor own flavours of Linux and support etc, there is a real marketing machine there for Linux, but it is highly focussed on specific market regions. Marketing of Linux to the masses is currently doomed to failure IMHO due to Linux's main weaknesses (lack of apps compared to the Windows platform, the relative complexity of doing certain things in Lnux compared to Windows)

All of Linux's strengths are due to its open community structure, al of microsofts weaknesses are due to its bulky corporate dinosaur internal structure.

But on the general point of community projects being hampered by a lack of money I can agree, regardless of whether that money is spent on marketing or anything else.

Going back to the music industry, I have a large amount of distaste for it as do so many people that come into contact with it. Im sure it has some positive attributes, I personally cant stand the way it works but I dont see the point in arguing about that really, everyones entitled to their opinion. But I believe it isnt dead nor dying. There is simply too much money at stake for it to lay down and die in the face of people sharing music for free. Is it as easy for me to find MP3's as it was 2 years ago? No. The music industry doesnt have to make it impossible for knowledgeable PC users to get music free, they simply have to make it too complicated/slow/boring for the masses in order to protect their CD sales. They can do that, they already are, and they have such powerful lobbying capabilities in the US that many new laws are being deisgned to meet their needs.

Anyway I dont think any of the above can tel us much about the way music and vj'ing will go in the next few years, I beleive it will be shaped by some innovative creative people doing something good, getting picked up on and marketed by the industry machine, and at that stage the punters will decide if its what they want. A lot of innovation will come from people who never necessarily become sucessful from a commercial standpoint, but rather whose ideas others will copy or use a foundation to build upon. And as we are part of the entertainment inducstry, we are rather instantly on the dangerously unstable side of the economy - if things so bad and unemployment etc rise, we are "luxury items" not essentials, which is why I'll always keep backup skills/job in case things go poo.