I have been used!!!

[vjrei]

Ok, I was about to do this production at the Delano Miami Hotel on December 31st.

This poeple came to me and asked me what "we " could do for the NYE party. They are an independant production company. So, they wanted to have a video to show to the hotel and sponsors and I told them waht to do. The budged for the video was $3500 and they told me the budged was only $1000, after a negotiation we rised to $1800 because of the 3D animation included.

The 3D animation was to show actually my ideas because they were attractive to the sponsors. So, I opush my price down because we had the actual event coming up (each invitation $800).

The thing is that they got the date for the 31st, they actually were invited to New York to talk to the hotel owner because they wanted to congratulate them and now, I give them a budged of $5400 and they say is out of proportion!

So, they used my ideas to sell their project and now they are going own without them. You can see the video at my web site www.vjrei.com look for Delano in the 3 movie files.

Miami Sound Machine is going to play there and each sponsor is coming up with $15.000 and they are at list 6 already. Thye wrote me "my budged is higer than the sound company".

[Amukidi]

"Miami Sound Machine is going to play there"

Then count yourself very fortunate!
You do use contracts and proposal forms?

[WordVirus23]

lemme get this straight.... you negiotiated to 1800, then up'ed it to 5400 after they confirmed you/the venue? and you're suprised they dropped you?
I'm charging a lot less than that for my NYE event, but with rooms, travel expenses, food, drinks, etc, it about comes out to your first amount... I figure it all works out in the end.
you won't see me trying to triple my rate after I've been confirmed tho...

wait wait... lemme guess, you expected all the gear to be rented and rigged for you too, right?
:lol:

..james...

edited to add:
nice demo: see my top ten reasons why not to make a client a fat demo.

double editted to add:
wait, did you get 1800 just for making the demo? and your budget to VJ the party was 5400.... ?

[vjrei]

The needed a demo for/ as a propousal. My budged was $3500 and then they told me they had only $1000. After I sat down with them and showed them the story board and pictures of others 3D animations they got the idea nad increased the budged to $1800 to include 3D.

This demo included my part of the visuals because that is the only effective way for the sponsors to have presence in the party.

-The Clock on the tower was my idea, it is going to be a real time clock with the name of the sponsor under.

-The runway was thought before but I was the one who desing the 3 ending walls with proyectors behind (for sponsorship)

-And to link all the plasma tvs for sponsorship too was my idea.

Ok, they got this video and about 5 companies were asking to the hotel to make the party and these guys who had no experience got the contract, obviously because everybody had a piece of paper and they had this video with incredible ideas.

Now, they are asking me for the budged and I gave them to them and they are telling me that they can rent the sound system under that amount. I mean, I am managing what is really importnat for the sponsors in the party. At list it was clear that all my ideas are part of my intellectual proprety (sorr for my English) and they can not be used by then at that place ever.

Is not only doing a VJ, I need 2 weeks to prepare footage for the Delano and th sponsors to keep the corporate image of everything. I have to redising the clock, I have to charge for the ideas by themselves and I have to charge for a performance on new years eve from 8PM until 4AM. Despite I have to be there at noon to set up all the cables.

And yes, the production company is going to bring the rest of the equipment because I do not have a 10.000 lumens proyector. I can include that on my budged but is is going to be the same if you pay the company directly or myself.

The point is that they got the Delano and now they are getting greedy big time cutting corners.

I mean, this is a party that takes easy one month in pre production and is not a rave party excatly.

[WordVirus23]

I don't care HOW impressive your ideas are, as long as you're submitting bids of 4500 dollars, you won't have to worry about working too much.

my NYeve show this year:
www.RenoHilton.com

[many2]

There are no Intellectual Property rights related to ideas - none at all. Ideas are free, if you give an idea to someone then that's it, you gave it, it's not yours anymore. No single law protect ideas.

What can be protected are clearly defined processes, prototypes or even recipes. Works of art, from all mediums, are also protected and are the property of the artist by default in most countries, but this doesn't cover ideas or concepts, only finished work.

I have had similar experiences in the past. As a consultant I have seen lots of my ideas being done by other people charging less money. I don't care because most of the time the year after they come back to me with a real budget because they want the real thing, not some amateurish imitation.

[sondz]

I would interpret the law as say that ideas are protected. Intellectual property is stuff that is in your head, finished, or freshly conceived, it is irrelevant. What matters in practicality is the ability to provide 'tangible' evidence that you were the first person to produce those ideas first. for example, if there is CCTV footage, that you can get hold of, which has clear shots of some of your initial sketches, you could take these people to court an sue.

Intellectual property is covered by copyright law the instance they are conceived, all you need to do is prove, with tangible evidence' that you were the fist person, and the only person (or organisation) the conceived of it.

That?s how I?ve always been taught anyway

[asterix]

I wouldn't have done the demo tape so cheap unless they'd guaranteed to pay me what I wanted for the gig.
Its a shit though that people see the $$ first - and not the big picture. Shit allover teh people who make it happen for them.

But don't worry. The show will look like shit and the sponsors will be bitterly dissappointed. Take the idea on yourself next time rei.

[CA]

Why didn't you ask a fee for your demo? You should have sold it them as a way that they could obtain more funding and in turn passing on more cash to you.

From what your describing...

"-The Clock on the tower was my idea, it is going to be a real time clock with the name of the sponsor under.

-The runway was thought before but I was the one who design the 3 ending walls with projectors behind (for sponsorship)

-And to link all the plasma tvs for sponsorship too was my idea"

(once again I have not seen your demo....)


Those are all good ideas, but whatever you quote them, both price and what you are willing to do for that price, you need to stick with it.

If they receive a larger budget from a demo that you provided for free, legally it has nothing to do with you. Unless you have a separate agreement with them. -Essentially being a marketer for the promoters.

As far as intellectual propriety goes...

SOUNDZ you say:

"Intellectual property is covered by copyright law the instance they are conceived, all you need to do is prove, with tangible evidence' that you were the fist person, and the only person (or organisation) the conceived of it."

How really do you prove this. Your not talking about a new blueprint for a drive shaft. You are talking about design concepts. Whos to say that I didn't invent that red, black and, white color scheme in 1983?

[CA]

But don't worry. The show will look like shit and the sponsors will be bitterly dissappointed. Take the idea on yourself next time rei.

And yeah true to that brother...


ca

[sondz]

CA, i know what you're saying and you're right, but like said before, i have always been taught that as soon as you conceive of something, you own the rights over that interlectual property, asterall, you made it. All you have to do is proove that you were the first person to do so, so if you can prove you were the first person to invent the red white and black colour scheme back in 1983, then your a rich man, but i expect that you can't :P

personally i did invent the first drive shaft in about 1401, but my blue prints got washed away in the great flood of 1402, so i can't proove it either, oh well!

[syzygy]

Originally posted by sondz
CA, i know what you're saying and you're right, but like said before, i have always been taught that as soon as you conceive of something, you own the rights over that interlectual property, asterall, you made it. All you have to do is proove that you were the first person to do so, so if you can prove you were the first person to invent the red white and black colour scheme back in 1983, then your a rich man, but i expect that you can't :P



I'm afraid that is not correct (at least in US and UK IP law, which I am familiar with)


There are four main kinds of IP protection:

Patents - protect specific processes and mechanisms

Copyright - protects works which are written, recorded, performed or otherwise created with some sort of physical manifestation (even if only electronic, it must have a manifestation of some sort).

Trademarks - protect your right to have your products uniquely identified as being made by you

Trade secrets - protect processes or practices that are not patented but are confidential to your business


None of these will protect an idea, except perhaps trade secrets law. Unfortunately, trade secrets are the hardest to protect - typically there has to be a contract (such as a non disclosure agreement or a non compete contract) in place and the idea would have to be clearly identified as being a trade secret.

This is a good thing for all of us. Imagine if arbitrary ideas were IP protectable. We'd all have to chase up permission to use every bright idea we see here on the forums. Some prople might be rushing to spew out as many basic ideas as they could in order to earn license fees on them. It would be ridiculous.

The only way to prevent yourself from being ripped off in a situation like this is through a specific contract.

One other piece of advice - bitching about situations like this online won't stand you in good stead with future clients. Would you get involved with a contractor who appears to up their fee after it has been agreed and then complains publicly about it, naming names? I wouldn't.

Dan.

[fluchtpunkt]

...so is your understanding that if you did not have an agreement on the overall fee beforehand that after having sold them a demo they have to work with you and accept any offer you come up with?? that's not how it works. any new deal is negotiable. they have the right to not be willing to pay you the amount you demand, you have the right to pull out of the project. typically one negotiates and finds a reasonable compromise - or not. if you want your budget to be higher than the sound companies' then you have to convince the promoters that your work is worth it (which usually happens over several events and hardly initially). if you sold them your demo without any agreement on how the working relationship would continue if the contract was granted then this is the risk you were taking.

[vjrei]

fluchtpunkt I am totally agree with you but now I have been exchanging emails with them and my "manager" who was the one who introduced us and they just closed of the doors, they took that video and sold the show with my ideas (the runaway was not my idea but the screen for sponsors were as well the screen inside the cabanas and the watch at the tower) and probably they won't use the watch but by what I have hearded they took the video and showed to some companies and asked them for a budged.

Thyey are telling me (after I catually called them from Venezuela because I came here for a few days and they were not answering my emails) they wanted to "give me the chance" to participate so people could see my work... I didn't ask for that!

They took my ideas, sold their project, got the client and kicked me out. Now, my manager wrote me today telling me that this same people mesed up something a week ago in another country with another artist.

What I see is that even before I seat down and open my mounth with anybody make them sign a confidentiality agreement and so on. I can perfectly suit this people but I came from vacations to my country and I would have to go to Miami, spend the 24 and NYE, go to the hotel just to check if they are using my ideas.

I mean, I am managing some things around here because the comunity is very small and they have a bigger name than me but people in Miami does not want to deal with poeple like than.

I am working thinsg out, I asked then "what would be a realistic amount for them then" but they haven't answer. Probably they won't even use my sistems or anything.

I'll be in touch here.

[turkish]

May I make a suggestion that may be of use in the future............>>

When I do demos for production houses so that they may sell to their end clients I always watermark them with my name and my contact details.

OK many people on here may know how to get rid of a watermark but most production houses do not.... or if they do they normally wont go to the bother of trying to remove it.

This is not the be all and end all deterrant but it does go to help


Well guess ya learned the hard way this time - I'm sure ya won't let it happen again.

Good luck

[asterix]

Rie you've got every right to be pissed.
Sponsors don't throw down the bling bling unless they see a good opportunity to brand themselves. Without your ideas where's the branding? Without the technical knowledge wheres the know how? How many dickhead promoters know anything about a 10k ansi projector?
I say fukem!

DAMN THE EXPERIENCE
REMEMBER THE LESSON

[VJOZ]

Originally posted by vjrei
Ok, I was about to do this production at the Delano Miami Hotel on December 31st.

This poeple came to me and asked me what "we " could do for the NYE party. They are an independant production company. So, they wanted to have a video to show to the hotel and sponsors and I told them waht to do. The budged for the video was $3500...

So, they used my ideas to sell their project and now they are going own without them. You can see the video at my web site www.vjrei.com look for Delano in the 3 movie files.


Hey Rei,

We've all been burned in different ways. From what it sounds like, you should be more familiar with NDA and other forms of usage agreements.

I'm not going to say your quotes were unagreeable, however I've found that when working with higher rates it's pretty common to have a lot of general terms worked out in writing. You got burned, but it shouldn't be that big a deal. If you're worth the rates you're quoting, you should have the good and bad experiences that go with it and the appropriate paperwork to cover it (for both you and your clients).

-VJOZ

[vjrei]

Surprise this thread still around I saw the title and when I logged in I was surprise it was me who started back in December...

Yes, it is an experience and "no one learns from some one elses experience" we have to live it ourselves.

That part was a huge disaster I found out later on, the promoters didn't pay to the people who sold the tickets even the hotel paid them $150.000!!! for the production.

Any way, it was the best way for me to learn that I do not move a finger until I have something on paper.

About prices... a Creative Visual Producer (better know in the underworld as a VJ) can charge different rates depending on the client... period. The other day I play my visuals for 3 hours and I got $400, I had only the 12" Powerbook and probably 10 clips and that was it, the projector (4500 lumens) was not even mine, the client paid for it.

Production companies need visuals and they have big clients, unfortunatly visuals does not have too much demand but is a mater of time.