Inspiration? pah!

[Amukidi]

May as well get this area kicked up and running. Why the title? As an art college lecturer, I guess I heard that word mis-used too many times! Honestly though, we are all dealing with visual material and as such, would all benefit from understanding a little more about colour theory and composition. So - if you want an easily accesable and fascinating education about colour, go and get hold of a copy of Johannes Itten's "The elements of colour". As I recall it's not cheap so get your local library to order it for you (Many of you will go out and buy it after a few reads). This man explains and de-mystifies the crucial "Rules" of colour. He approaches the subject in a very spiritual way (Hence his being kicked out of the Bauhaus), and WILL change the way you look at colour and use it.

[MoRpH]

Jaffa, maybe you could write us a great "introduction to colour theory" for VJcentral, I know its a topic I would like to know more about :) and the i'm sure the content section could use some more articles:nod:

[LEVLHED]

Wait, you mean READ a BOOK?!?


::gasp::


I don't even read owners manuals.....

LOL

[MoRpH]

A book.... huh???? don't you mean PDF that I can view on my iPaq :p

[Amukidi]

Ooops, forgot - generation warp there! Ok, I'll put together something based upon my specialist lectures I used to do, nothing too pithy - I was renowned for my concise, to the point work, so it shouldn't be too wordy. Just the basic beyond the colour wheel stuff that ALL artists should know. It'll take a week or so as I've gotta do some more clips (especially now I know how many Morph has!!).

[MoRpH]

Hahahaha... 1500 ain't THAT many :) just great to have them @ call so easily with SVi, it really is good for working with a large amount of clips anyways enough OT waffle.......

Yeah that would be great Jaffa what ever you can manage mate :) I know the colour wheel basics (complementary colours, etc)... after that I would love to know more :)

[Amukidi]

You might regret this!!!!
See you all in class in a weeks time.

[MoRpH]

Hahaha... I'm definately looking forward too it... maybe a series???

*MoRpH.... planning to use his new colour knowledge to screw with ppls heads in a whole new way* :D

[eXhale]

Yeah jaffa! Looking forward to read you. :) I used to have some color theory class on the school I went to but, as everything on that school, we saw this topic very superficially ("on the surface"), which is why I dropped it!

As for your question about the goal of this forum... well it's a very open forum to discuss any advanced topics about the content of your visuals, the role of the VJ, weither or not we should pass 'messages', and plenty of relatively off-topic subjects. I couldn't find a better name than 'Inspiration' but if you have a better idea, let me know.

PS: what can you tell me about the orange/grey/purple mix? I love those colors but I don't know why. The initial design of VJC used orange instead of blue but I changed it because all my sites already use a mix of these 3 colors :D

[Amukidi]

Orange and purple are interesting ones, clearly each is close to the complementary of the other..i.e. Orange is close to yellow, yellow is complementary to purple etc. and vice versa, so, they have a close relationship with each other. Also, there is a phenomenon going on called "simultaneous contrast" which is one of the key things I'm going to cover on the forum. This makes 2 complementary colours actually emphasise each other! As for grey, well as it is often known as a primary non-colour, it pretty much fits in with anything. The darker it is the more likely it is to set off your other colours by means of Light/dark contrast. So there you have it!

[MoRpH]

http://www.thezehners.com/gallery/partyday/image/foaming_at_the_mouth.jpg
OOOOOooooo with that tasty tidbit I'm foaming @ the mouth already :)

[Amukidi]

OK, here's something to print off and stick on the wall where you can see it hile you are working, Primaries, secondaries and tertiaries!

[eXhale]

Thanks jaffa :) Grey is indeed mainly an enhancer & orange and purple are definitely the key colors! Looking forward to read your article.

[Amukidi]

This is just a page of words to give you an idea what I'm about to unleash, goes back to the basics for those who didn't do it (or listen!!).

[many2]

This is coming from jaffa808's txt file :
"we have the 3 primary colours - red, blue and yellow"

This isn't like what I know about colour theory. You said this is for pigment colour, in my own class (I was a teacher too ;) ) I said the 3 primary pigment colours were Cyan, Magenta and Yellow and that the 3 primary light colours were Red, Green and Blue. Then I would go about substractive (pigment) and additive (light) properties of both models. I would like to know where this Red Blue Yellow model is coming from ? I am looking forward to your article, this will be interesting !

Many-2

[petewarden]

http://www.inforamp.net/~poynton/notes/colour_and_gamma/ColorFAQ.html

All very much from the engineering side of the fence, but does have:

"23. Why did my grade three teacher tell me that the primaries are red, yellow and blue?"

:)

[Amukidi]

I see your point but I'm simply using the more familiar terms for subtractive primaries that most artists and students are au fait with. The printing industry of course, refers to them as Cyan Magenta and Yellow (plus, of course, Black) hence the term "four colour process". The use of pigments to produce printed and painted work is frought with problems, particularly at the student end of the market, and by the physical nature of paint itself (a tube of ordinary paint contains many other ingredients to get it to stick to the paper, to dry etc. This leaves us with a potentially poor product.

[Amukidi]

It's also important to point out that, despite what the theory tells us, we can not get by with just 5 tubes of paint! (the primaries plus black and white). So for arguments sake I shall be sticking to their common names of Red Yellow and Blue.

[petewarden]

Yes, sorry if I came across as a smart-arse, your terms are more practical for everyone here than the sort of stuff that's in the FAQ. I just find the science of colour perception a fascinating area, and one that meshes very well with the art community's expertise on colour, once you get past the scientific jargon.

[unjulation]

it's interesting to see the diferance between the clasicly traind artist and that of the computer based image maker.

[many2]

Originally posted by jaffa808
It's also important to point out that, despite what the theory tells us, we can not get by with just 5 tubes of paint! (the primaries plus black and white)

This isn't true : with pure cyan, magenta, yellow, black and white I can produce any color you want. I even had a course where we would grab a paint ticket at random from a bag (the one you use to choose a colour for a room and that you take home from the tool store) and would have to reproduce the colours exactly with only those 5 basic tubes of acrylic colour. You might want more paints to produce effects (like iridescence, transparency, glitter, metal paint, etc.) but these aren't colors in themselves. I always laughed when my students asked me where the "silver" colour was in photoshop, 3ds Max or Softimage ! Take a minute and look at silver (or even better, chrome) what do you see as colours on it : the colours of the environment !

I see your point in using conventional Red, Green and Yellow but since this model doesn't have an equivalent in computer graphics it may be harder to use for us VJs. Why not use Red Green Blue, since we are working with light, aren't we ? And the additive model is much easier to understand than the substactive one for someone without an art background.

Many-2

[Amukidi]

All I'm trying to do is convey some practical directions based upon 25 years of professional experience in both teaching and painting/and now VJing. People who make art have a palette - this palette has colours on it, paint, pixels, ink - who gives a fuck? These colours have almost arbritary names, but that is the language that 99% of the artists on this forum understand. I do not claim to be an expert on this subject, but a good many of my past students will fiercely argue that point! I just want to short-cut all the junk I had to wade through, and help people put colour theory to work for them. Our most important element - our audience - see coloured shapes and images on the screens. Its all about what it looks like and what effect it has on the audience.

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by jaffa808
Our most important element - our audience - see coloured shapes and images on the screens. Its all about what it looks like and what effect it has on the audience.

Yep this is the most important thing and the whole reason I asked jaffa to write the article.... It doesn't mater what model we use (yes I know and RGB model might be easier for computer based artists) aslo as it is something that we can then apply yo our own work and acchieve the result above :)

[JoshM]

what about color blind people like me? :) Would the same theories apply?

also i think that the psycological effects of colors are neat idea to expand on as well. Colors are so effective at portraying a mood and how it affects the brain.

[Amukidi]

I have no scientific knowledge of colour blindness, however, I have taught many colour blind students over the years. My opinion, for what its worth, is that you will still experience this and other colour phenomena, its simply that you will need to experiment more and try to keep track of the results. I used to encourage students to celebrate their "difference", they had a different pallette and their work was usually interesting for that. I'm sure you don't need telling not to see colour blindness as ANY sort of barrier to creativity, what comes from you is you. There must be papers / articles on this subject on the web, you may find it interesring to hunt some down, but remember, no-one knows exactly what you see except you!

[Amukidi]

Some very interesting points ***** - I had intended to spend a fair bit of time inputting into this thread, I had no idea that I'd be so busy in my first year as a VJ! Consequently, I am preparing for 2 more festivals (one in the Greek Islands - Waheeyyyy!) and still got 2 teenage daughters to look after! As for your points on contrast. yes, Black and white MAY appear to have the biggest visual contrast, but, using two complementaries CAN be more effective bearing in mind the psycological phenomena thats going on (simultaneous contrast - where each colour actually makes the other appear more intense. If you are serious about learning more, buy or borrow from your local library, "The Elements of Colour" by Johannes Itten. This book (as I keep bleating on) will change the way you see and use colour and I'd be more than happy to try to explain what he's on about should you need it. However, the book is easy reading - you just have to keep an open mind as you are reading it, AND put the theories to the test with paint or Image manipulation app (Photoshop or Paintshop Pro).
I'm sure that many of us are aware of image quality/contrast once it is projected - as a Flash animator, I was disappointed at first to see the drop in quality when projected. I now quite like the "organic" feel to the anims, but am also saving up for a broadcast-quality scan converter so I have more control. Some of my animations a just too subtle and lose too much through even top quality projectors and I'd like to address this. We can also be sure that next years projectors will be better, also remember that anything put into the line between your lap top and the screen will steal something - mixers and scannies will all take some quality away. One night recently I used my Vaio's TV out direct into a new 3000 lumens projector (bit of a pisser, as I couldn't have my lappies screen up at the same time) the picture quality was awesome! Crisp and saturated colours!!!! But we need to control the output so this is not a realistic approach yet, unless you have a dual head card and second monitor. To sum up, my advice would be to remember how your work is going to be presented and make adjustments accordingly - and bear in mind that if your computer will play your material well now, it will do in 2 years time (as long as your working methods remain more or less the same. To this end you may also consider buying a top scannie in the future rather than upgrading a laptop that actually works fine anyway. That's my plan anyway!

[questionmark]

Hi Amukidi,

It's a shame that
a) this thread died a silent death after such a enthousiastic start
b) I missed your colour theory workshop during AVit03

Besides my interest in colours coming from the lighting tech side, I am using colour theory now to implement it in a Computer Based Learning package. In other words: I have to teach colour theory by means of the computer.

I have a couple of questions on colour, I thought you might like to answer them. (oh by the way, I am going to the library immediately after posting here to get that Itten book; I've heard a lot about it).

This debate about colour models, CMYK/RGB/RYB, it really confuses me, since there doesn't seem to be a 'right' colour model...but at the same time, you can't speak of two different colour models (one for paint and one for light) because we also see colour in paint because light is bouncing of of it. So in that case you cannot split those two, can you?

please help me out here: at primary school I learned that yellow and blue make green, although in light terms yellow (which already is a mixture of red and green) and blue make cyan. look at this site and you'll understand my confusion.

http://www.thetech.org/exhibits_events/online/color/intro/

[fluchtpunkt]

cmyk is the color model for paint, i.e. reflective colors:
you start with white light that hits the color surface which absorbs part of the color spectrum of the white light.

rgb is the color model for light, i.e. projected colors:
you start with no light at all (black) & the different colors add together to form any color perceivable by the human eye.


both color models do not reflect the physical nature of color (or light)! they reflect how our eye works: we have 4 types of color receptors in our retina: one for 'blue', one for 'red', one for 'green' & one for brightness (...which are more sensitive than the other three, for night vision - which is why we don't see colors in the dark).

[questionmark]

thanks fluchtpoint, but how do these models interrelate?

for example: to make coloured source light for the RGB (additive) model you must start with sun/lamp light (which is white or nearly white) being filtered (subtractive) into one of the primaries.

We're talking about the same light bundle, so how can two models that have this connection have different primaries?

any suggestions...?

[Amukidi]

Physics is full of these dilemnas - see Heisenbergs uncertainty theory!!!! I'm not entirely sure that I agree with fluchtpunkt's assessment that CMYK is the model for paint - it certainly is for printing, but in reality, painters tend to use the RYB model as featured in "the elements of colour". They are similar but NOT identical - eg try buying a tube of Magenta artist's oil paint! For the last 20 years or so, I've slowly backed away from the science, as it doesn't really interest me any more! Consequently, my colour teaching has been much more to do with practise and not theory - as anyone who has been there will tell you , paints and inks (excluding printer's inks) DO NOT behave 100% according to the theory! I also put a lot of store in how colours behave with each other as we see them and how to deal with the inadequacies of the manufacturing process wher paint is concerned.

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by questionmark
thanks fluchtpoint, but how do these models interrelate?

for example: to make coloured source light for the RGB (additive) model you must start with sun/lamp light (which is white or nearly white) being filtered (subtractive) into one of the primaries.

We're talking about the same light bundle, so how can two models that have this connection have different primaries?

any suggestions...?

the RGB primaries refer to colors of light (i.e. in a tv screen).
mixing all three primary colors together results in brighter colors (i.e. additive).
each primary color (ideally) stimulates precisely one type of color receptor in the human retina (red, green or blue). if all colors are mixed, all three types of receptors are stimulated which is interpreted by the brain as 'white'.
http://www.studio1webdesign.com/images/rgb.gif

the CMYK primaries refer to colors of pigments (i.e. in ink).
mixing colors results in darker colors (i.e. subtractive).
each primary color (ideally) absorbs one of the RGB primaries (cyan absorbs red, magenta green & yellow blue). if all colors are mixed all RGB primaries should get filtered out (black) - usually however this is not the case in practice & the result of mixing all colors is grey (e.g. printer) or brown (e.g. water colors) & an additional 'black' color is needed to be able to tone down colors.
http://www.studio1webdesign.com/images/cmyk.gif

another color space model is HSL (hue, saturation, lightness).
here one can easily see that the primaries of the RGB & CMYK color systems are simply shifted from each other by 60? (or 180? if you will).
http://www.normankoren.com/HSLcolors.jpg



more generally one can view the colorspace we humans perceive as a 3dimensional vectorspace. RGB, CMYK or HSL are possible groups of base vectors that cover this (entire) colorspace. of course there is an arbitrary amount of other possible groups of base vectors that cover this colorspace with arbitrary precision (sufficient memory space provided) - as long as (at least) three of the base color vectors are linear independent (here (http://www.cs.ut.ee/~toomas_l/linalg/lin1/node7.html) or here (http://hemsidor.torget.se/users/m/mauritz/math/vect/linear.htm)).
this means that there is actually infinitely many different groups of base colors (in an additive or subtractive colorspace). though of course any group of colors doesn't generally form a group of base colors.

...


as far as RGB & CMYK color spaces in computers/specificFiletypes are concerned specific transformation functions are defined. ...not that i had them at hand though ;) .

[eirenah]

wow
awesome thread!!!!
i see it for the 1st time, dunno how it's possible...

anyway i've read it pretty fast, so xcuse me if i'll repeat what someone else allready said, but it's very fascinating to me so i'll share

about color blindness - precisly, Dlatonism
it's interesting that it shows only with specific hues, such as 1specific shade of red and green.
and why is that so - it can be shown with simple test.
take colour pallette with as much hues as you can. then photocopy it black-white. you'll get grayscale, with many different tones. however, 2 grays will be exactly the same, and it's those 2 that daltonists see as 1 colour (red and green)

Not all the daltonists see those 2 colours as 1, but they usually don't recognize the ones which are most similar when they're converted to grayscale...

[fluchtpunkt]

...should the lower part of my post confuse you because of the math involved ...just ignore it! for a basic understanding of color theory the RGB & CMYK color spaces should suffice.

[fluchtpunkt]

...ohh yes, i forgot: on color blindness:


color blindness is due to a malfunction or lack of certain color receptors in the retina usually because of genetic mutations (here (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/aug97/871327897.Me.r.html), here (http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/color_blindness.html) or here (http://www.hhmi.org/senses/b130.html)).

[questionmark]

hmmhmm...

so...let's see if i get this...(please correct me if i'm wrong)


In theory...
-if you wanted to make and object appear voilet-ish, but you're only source light is cyan (blue+green), this is impossible, cuz there's no red in your source light. So even if your object was painted red, it would appear black.

-if you have a red object and a blue light pointing at it, it'll look black-ish too.

-if you have a violet object and a blue light poiting at it, it will look blue cuz 'there's no red light to reflect'.

-when you place a cyan filter in front of a pure white light, 2 things happen: 1. part of the bundle passes through the filter and appears cyan, because the filter absorbes red. And 2. part of the bundle will bounces of from the fliter which makes the filter itself appear cyan, because red is absorbed.
Both cases are the result of a subtractive colourmaking process.

- use the cyan light in the example above as a new source light and point it at a white plane (100% reflection) (or look at the bundle in space). then cross this bundle with red and it makes white.

right?
do i get an A for this? ;)

[questionmark]

How can a colour specialist like Itten start of with a red, blue and yellow model for paint?
it this due to paint colours always being somewhat 'unpure', so that the RGY model matches reality more than CMY?

and what about this: i heard, that monitors have a hard time displaying yellow? at least a harder time than displaying blue for example.

in other words: is this the point where technology shows it's raw edges and theory doesn't quite fit reality?

[eirenah]

RGB model matches reality more then CMY mostly only because our unperfect eyes. Our eye retina consists of 'sticks' and tiny pins - and pins are the ones sensitive to R G and B, therefore our eye will have to stimulate cyan with G+B pins, yellow with R+G pins, and magenta with R+B pins, while R and G and B are 'easier to get' : )
It's also known that red sensitive pins are also a bit sensitive to green so i think your question is kinda answerable with this fact (red and green are complementary and give yellow).
RGB colours would be perfect and pure for our eye just in theory, but it's impossible because you can never get only 1 pin to work, there's allways 2 of them mixing colours.
Also, every question about monitors and their colours displaying can (should) be answered with eye problems, because monitors are constructed to be eye-wannabies - made of catod tubes with phosphor, which emitates RGB the same way our pins in retina do.

[frank]

But where are the colors?
In the eyes or in the world?

[Amukidi]

It doesn't matter. It really doesn't, I'm a total colourist, have been for years, don't get too involved in the science, learn by experience about the effects they have on each other, much more satisfying and infinitely more interesting!

Well, that's what I think anyway.

[eirenah]

science says it's all about light and vawelenghts, art says it's all about perception. and noone is wrong.

in different words - the grass is green. Is it also green when the night falls? no, it's black (or very dark green). but we know it's green. heh.

[WordVirus23]

is this why children see monsters and faeries? because they *don't* know that they *aren't* supposed to be there?
it's all about what we don't know... :)
..j...

Originally posted by eirenah
science says it's all about light and vawelenghts, art says it's all about perception. and noone is wrong.

in different words - the grass is green. Is it also green when the night falls? no, it's black (or very dark green). but we know it's green. heh.

[eirenah]

ok, now we're diving into pseudometaphysics :scared:
gotta contemplate about this one a bit more... : )

[asterix]

We should be focusing on rgb colour models seeing as it is the one we VJ's actually use!

By the way - CMYK cannot cover a full colour spectrum (from experience)... try making a half descent orange/green with it! And matching a CMYK picture on an RGB screen is virtually impossble. You will always be able to pic a difference - just ask any half descent graphic designer!

RGB cannot cover a full spectrum in darker areas (although we're getting closer) because we generally rely on the black space being hit with a lightsource.




Just out of interest - if you have a CRT monitor - grab yourself a magnifying glass and have a close look. You'll notice the rgb circles inside the pixels. Your montior has three electron guns charging the different phosphors in each circle. More charge = more brightness.

[asterix]

Anyway I'd like to hear more about the psycological effects. I was planning on doing a party where we'd use only sound and colour to modify binaural brain patterns - with the effect of feeling like you've eatn a few eccy pills!

[julez]

how u planning to work that asterix??

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by frank
But where are the colors?
In the eyes or in the world?

in the (physical) world there is only different wavelengths of light. in our eyes there is merely receptors that react to light of specific wavelengths.
the colors - as we see them - only exist in our brain/mind!

Originally posted by asterix

Anyway I'd like to hear more about the psycological effects. I was planning on doing a party where we'd use only sound and colour to modify binaural brain patterns


reading into 'gestalt theory' might be something for you then.

link1 (http://www.sapdesignguild.org/resources/optical_illusions/gestalt_laws.html), link2 (http://www.enabling.org/ia/gestalt/), link3 (http://www-rci.rutgers.edu/~cfs/305_html/Gestalt/wertheimer2.html), link4 (http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/psych/psy280f/ch5/gestalt.html), link5 (http://psychlab1.hanover.edu/Classes/Sensation/Gestalt/index_files/frame.htm)

[KillingFrenzy]

I'd just like to add in the "environmental factors" section of projected visuals, because it ends up radically effecting my color choices.
In the past 2 months:
I've had to do a show where I had screens that ended up being UV reflective in a UV environment and therefore had to torque all my color output in strange ways to get workable results. I looked at a recorded tape of the show a day later, and it looked HORRIBLE (all blues and greens and sections of noise showing on the tape that were not visable live, because they were washed out by the UV).
I did a show where the lighting in the venue was controlled by an off/on switch, meaning I had lots of red wash on my screen and no dimmer to kill it. I had to do some serious warping of my color set to make certain portions of the video even visable in that environment.
I did a show with almost no lighting in the room. My projections were such a factor in the bands performance lighting, that I was using color effects to accentuate certain performers when they'd need focus pulled to them.

My point here is that ambient color "noise" can be a major decisionmaker in live situations and often a challenge to what one would create in the vacuum of a home environment.

I find myself wanting color tweaking capabilities on all sources and on final output to really dial in the intended presentation into the unexpected environment. So, good color theory can only be put into good color practice with the proper tools. (I'm about three miniature, portable TBCs away from really being where I'd like to be.)

[frank]

Fluchtpunkt said:
in the (physical) world there is only different wavelengths of light. in our eyes there is merely receptors that react to light of specific wavelengths.

Yepp, thats the physical viewpoint. But that does not explain why do we see colors. It only explain how!
The thing I think about is, that colors have different feelings. For example blue seems far away, cold, quite and red gives us near,hot and powerful emotions.
All humans react in a similar way to colors. And the colors appears only in a small bandwith of the eletromagnetic wavespectrum.
Has blood the same meaning to us, if it is blue?

Oh sorry, Think I am going out of topic.
Just the stuff i thinking about in the moment.

Ciao Frank

[asterix]

How will I modify binaural wave patterns

Well fluchtpunkt's links are actually quite usefull in explaining how. Our brains seem to do alot of guess work when it comes to spacial activity (awareness of the environment around you).


I know of an experiment where a guy wore these glasses that turned everything you saw upside down - for two weeks! After only a few days he noticed that his brain had actually 'flipped' the upside down image to 'the correct way up' image. Then once he took the glasses off again - the normal images appeared upside down again for a few days!

Anyway - the project was about doing something similar to a viewer. By using surround sound which was minutely out of phase - your brain works overtime trying to figure out what to tell your mind what in fact is occuring. And with dual primary colors - oscilating at certain frequencies - again the same disoriented effect. And with a little knowledge on binaural brain patterns - rather than feeling quite ill - ya feel quite high!

(Thats the theory anyways )

[Amukidi]

"And with dual primary colors - oscilating at certain frequencies - again the same disoriented effect. And with a little knowledge on binaural brain patterns - rather than feeling quite ill - ya feel quite high!"

Mmmmm....good luck with that one, let us know what happens, but also, be careful!! I'd give some kind of warning in the same way that TV companies do with strobe lights, the last thing you want to do is trigger an epilectic fit in someone (and this is not beyond the realms of fantasy!!).

[cat]

I saw a really good installation at the icon gallery in birmingham, actually it was outside! It wqas a greenhouse with the glass covered in magenta gel for one half of the length and cyan the other, it was also full of smoke, and I mean full! Visibility about 3 feet.
It was amazing inside at each end you could only see the one colour in the middle you got a mix, made you feel fairly strange!
Now I also do lighting, and if you want to really "get" colours in a non-intellectual way I do recommend you have a go on a parcan rig, you have a limited pallete but you can make some real hairs on the back of your neck colour washes when you ride the music right!
I used to do the lights at a techno club where almost the only lights we had were 4 cyan strobes 4 magenta, some wash lights in green, orange, blue and magenta and some ministars, oh and a fuck load of smoke! Strangely enough I only dropped 1 punter in about 3 years of doing it, which is amazing because it was extremely fierce and there were a lot of drugs being done! It was a real enter a world of colour, you could saturate the place with a wash in 1 colour and then drop it to complete darkness only to zap everyone with the strobes in another colour, big retinal hit! A bit like sticking your bum in the bass bins!
I know people have a hard time with lampies, but a good lampy takes his job every bit a seriously as a VJ. I've also heard people moaning they get paid too much, but in my experience you get more for visuals!

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by frank

Yepp, thats the physical viewpoint. But that does not explain why do we see colors. It only explain how!
The thing I think about is, that colors have different feelings. For example blue seems far away, cold, quite and red gives us near,hot and powerful emotions.
All humans react in a similar way to colors. And the colors appears only in a small bandwith of the eletromagnetic wavespectrum.
Has blood the same meaning to us, if it is blue?



as i said color perception happens in our brain.
'gestalt theory (http://www.enabling.org/ia/gestalt/gtax1.html#kap2)' tries to find answers to precisely such questions. one of its fundamental premises is "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" - ...blue is more than just a color, etc.

why do we see colors? well as far as science goes the assumption is that colorvision provides some evolutionary advantage. ...maybe because it enables us to tell a ripe apple from an unripe one at a glance or maybe because it let us discover the tiger waiting to pounce on us the split second earlier that counts, ...or maybe because how do you decide whether to take the blue or the red pill if you can't see no colors.

as to humans reacting in similar ways to colors there are different reasons. for example, blue seems far away to all of us because earths atmosphere lets far away objects appear blue (http://www.earththunder.com/images/mountains.jpg). blue (short wavelenght) is cold & red (long wl) is hot because light transmits more heat in long wavelengths. optical illusions (http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/psych/psy280f/ch3/hg/hg.html) work for all of us because our brains work in similar ways. different mental phenomena - ie. images, colors, melodies, smells, memories,... - typically convey similar emotions/meanings for all of us * because?? ...'because' in our mind they have/are/represent a 'gestalt'; they are an abstraction of reality not merely a projection or placeholder of it.
in any case i've only started to read into this very shortly myself & i'm quite excited & think there are quite a few interesting things to learn there with vjing in mind.


* eg: a dark room, a dark soul, a dark sound, a dark humour.
...or (http://www.maluma.de/malumaworld/maluma/_ber_Maluma/_ber_maluma.html)

ps: another nice link i found:perception class notes of u toronta (http://www.cquest.utoronto.ca/psych/psy280f/ohoptions.html)

[BrainStove]

Really nice to see that in this VJWorld and through all those new links in this thread; Science & "My Surreal Threads" are starting to gain better shape these days... :alien: :love:

[eirenah]

did ya know that some animals (mostly birds and reptiles) have more than three different color receptors?? wow.
what do you think, in which way we see colour different then them? (do they see more?)

[asterix]

"Mmmmm....good luck with that one, let us know what happens, but also, be careful!! I'd give some kind of warning in the same way that TV companies do with strobe lights, the last thing you want to do is trigger an epilectic fit in someone (and this is not beyond the realms of fantasy!!). [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah it's kinda freaky. Look out your window into someone elses at night while they're watching tv. The room seems to fill out with either red or blue completely. Watch a tv commercial from that vantage point - the entire room seems to flash to different solid colours rather rapidly.

Im sure you'd subconsciously pick that up.

[frank]

Hi again,

sorry for my long absence - to much work.

To come back to the discussion with fluchtpunkt:
...blue seems far away to all of us because earths atmosphere lets far away objects appear blue.

But what is if i say that the egg was first not the chicken.
What is if we see the sky and the sea blue because sky and sea are far away and infinite.

Ciao Frank

[julez]

But what is if i say that the egg was first not the chicken.
What is if we see the sky and the sea blue because sky and sea are far away and infinite.

i dont quite understand...There is a scientific reason why the sky and sea are seen as blue. That being shorter wavelengths transmit over longer distances better and the sea just reflects the sky

The chicken egg thing is a philosophical debate

Maybe im missing the point??:confused:

[frank]

Yes im going into the philosophical direction.
I always wonder, why the wavelength spectrum is a line from radio, infrared, visible light, uv to gamma, but the humans see the visible light as a circle.Why a circle? (http://www.saumag.edu/art/studio/chalkboard/c-wheel.html) Because the color complements (the contrast) are in the opposite, so a circle is the best way to illustrate this relations.
I think there is a big difference between the physics way of light and the human. Physics is just one way to describe the world, its not the only truth.
What im loking for is why we feel the same way in front of blue? It doesnt matter if its the sea, sky, a blue house or a blue icon. And why we feel like that? Is the wild, powerful feeling of orange the right feeling for maybe the sky?

Caio Frank

Some links:
Goethes Theory of Color (http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-55/iss-7/p43.html)
Merleau-Ponty Phenomenology of Colors (http://www.murielbartol.com/phenoofcolorI.html)

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by frank

What is if we see the sky and the sea blue because sky and sea are far away and infinite.


...yes maybe the world around us exists only as a figment of our imagination (though your theory would lead to countless new problems like: why then isn't the sun suuuuuper blue??). ...otherwise julez' expanation applies.



Yes im going into the philosophical direction.
I always wonder, why the wavelength spectrum is a line from radio, infrared, visible light, uv to gamma, but the humans see the visible light as a circle. Why a circle? [/URL] Because the color complements (the contrast) are in the opposite, so a circle is the best way to illustrate this relations.
I think there is a big difference between the physics way of light and the human. Physics is just one way to describe the world, its not the only truth.

first of all (once more ;) ...takes a deep breath): we humans do not perceive the visible light as a circle! it's a THREE dimensional thing! i.e. hue, saturation & lightness; or red, green & blue or cyan, magenta, yellow; or ...... . what is indeed true, is that we perceive the hue-dimension as circular; which would mean that the color space we perceive can be considered a cylinder, but never a circle.
the reason why the physical wavelength spectrum is linear yet our hue perception is circular is completely banal: what we perceive as colors are actually the result of the combination of the signals of the three different types of color receptors we have in our eyes which are each sensitive to certain wavelengths of light. when you draw three points (each symbolizing a color receptor) & connect every point with every other point (symbolizing the combination of signals from two different types of receptors*) what do you get? ...you get a triangle (or a circle if you draw round lines between the points) - which is a circular object. just like our color perception.

yes there is a big difference between the physical nature of light and the way we perceive it. but there is a direct & quite comprehensive relationship between the two which would be the (physical) human eye & brain & their way of transforming the former into the latter (the links are already there ;) ).


* when all three receptors fire we perceive shades of grey


What im loking for is why we feel the same way in front of blue? It doesnt matter if its the sea, sky, a blue house or a blue icon. And why we feel like that? Is the wild, powerful feeling of orange the right feeling for maybe the sky?


hehe :D

i'd guess it's going to be hard if not outright impossible to get any definitive answers to those kinds of questions. i've already posted links regarding these questions. ...i'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at though.
...but do we really need to know why blue makes us feel one way & orange another? isn't it more interesting to explore how & when colors have certain effects on viewers?? ...especially considering that vjs are primarily artists & not scientists.

[Amukidi]

"...but do we really need to know why blue makes us feel one way & orange another? isn't it more interesting to explore how & when colors have certain effects on viewers?? ...especially considering that vjs are primarily artists & not scientists."

How very relieved I am to read your final statement fluchtpunkt, and you put it more eloquently than I was going to!

[frank]

fluchtpunkt said:
...but do we really need to know why blue makes us feel one way & orange another? isn't it more interesting to explore how & when colors have certain effects on viewers?? ...especially considering that vjs are primarily artists & not scientists.

If you want to know HOW you have to understand WHY.
Ok may be its hard to understand what im trying to tell because of my bad english and the hard matter.

I think the biggest problem with colors is that physicans tell us that the colors/wavelength come from the outside to the inside - from the world into the eye. They say that the world is objective. They say it because they need an objective world. If the world would be subjective they cant make science, because there are no hard facts.
But the world is not from outside to inside. See, if you go out and you are happy than all is fine although its raining. But if you are sad and go out, all is bad and grey even if the sun shinning. So your attitude to the world is very important.
This attitude is your attention to the world outside. You can see every day the same thing in a different way. That is what humans differs to science: we live in a Subject-Object-Relationship not in a Object to Subject Line.

To come back to colors you see always the desk in your room in the same color: brown. At day if the sun is shining (with blue light 5600k) and in the evening with your lamps (yellow light 3200k). If you check the real colors with photometrics (or you take your videocamera - the thing why you have to adjust the whitebalance) you see that the color in fact is different than it appears to you. Why?
Its some mysterious thing called Constance of Colors.
Its not only because you remember that the desk is brown. Than it would be always the same brown but the color is different in the shadow and in the light. A white paper in a shadow is not grey or black, its in a way white - a substance of white. A white paper in blue light is still white.
The illumination, the light in the room is not not colored for humans its colorless, its a requirement for seeing. Without light you cant see anythng. But in colored light you do not see all in this color.
If you go into your house the lights inside are yellow. After a while they are not yellow but neutral and the light outside is blue not neutral as before. Your eye has an auto-whitebalance and where your body is this light tends to neutral color.
And a third thing is the relation to other objects. As a fact you never interpret shadows as grey or black. You see an object like a desk with variations of shadows. It helps you to see it 3-dimensional. You give the darker parts a sense. You know its a shadow and this shadow is fixed to the desk. Same with reflections. If you destroy the 3-dimensional relation with closing your eyes very small you will see a retina picture. You will see only areas of colors. Areas of brown and some black and some small blue areas - the brown desk with shadows and blue reflections of the daylight. Its a technic from the impressionists - the retina picture. You destroy the 3 dimensional and see a 2 dimensional picture of the world. And as the most important fact you destroy the sense of the seeing picture. You only see areas of hue and brightness and not a desk!

Why do i tell this? To show that all in our world makes sense for us. We dont see variations of brown but a desk. And that the our attitude to the world is how we see and feel the world.

That is the field where the colors play: the attitude. Colors have influence to us and they still do if they exists through colorcontrast. Colors influence our emotions, moods and our motoric - as experiments shows. Red lets us overreact movement and oversize things. Colors influence our attitude toward the world.

So the question is not why und how do colors influence human beings but the colors are manifestations of different attitude toward the world. If we see colors they invite us to have a specific attitude toward the world.


This are not my thoughts:( its from Merleau-Ponty - its phenomenology.
I started to make thoughts about colors some months ago for an university seminar and wrote something about it. I finished last week. Thats why my position was not clear before - it was still under construction. I like this phenomenologic way because its explain very clear the color thing.

This is my text but only in german:
Colors in the Ganzfeld (german) (http://www.uni-weimar.de/~langer/farben/farben_im_ganzfeld.html)