bpm recognition

[gauthier]

hello do you now about a software that can convert the beat of a live mix to a midi signal
thanks
the french guy

[NickT]

Don't know of a software solution, but here's a neat hardware option that you can use to sync midi.

http://www.redsound.com/products/msync/index.htm

[munecouno]

take a look to:

http://www.midi.ru/AudioToMidi/

[epoch]

Originally posted by NickT
Don't know of a software solution, but here's a neat hardware option that you can use to sync midi.

http://www.redsound.com/products/msync/index.htm

i actually have one of these and it works great. the internal clock on a lot of apps is not that tight. i have found when i use the micro sync things hit exactly as they should. i highly recommend it.

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by epoch


i actually have one of these and it works great. the internal clock on a lot of apps is not that tight. i have found when i use the micro sync things hit exactly as they should. i highly recommend it.

hmmm, I wonder if this unit is better than the voyager or the federation from the same manufactures...

[epoch]

Originally posted by vjpixylight


hmmm, I wonder if this unit is better than the voyager or the federation from the same manufactures...

from what i can tell both the voyager and federation have the microsync built into them. i guess it just depends on what you want to use it for. i know my needs were for a dedicated external midi time clock. so i went for the microsync due to cost. there is not much to it. you can tap up or down, and it stays in sync very well. one thing i have seen is you need to tweek the audio signal strength coming into the unit a bit to get the proper signal. for $150 it was a great purchase.

[LEVLHED]

I can't see how they'd be any better than the VoyagerOne's...still use the same engine, right? These things may work better than other things out there, but I can tell you they really aren't THAT great..

I have two, wanna buy one?

[vjpixylight]

I own both the voyager and the federation, and was just wondering if they had the same midi sync hardware..

As for the sync, they would work for a visual beat, but they are not exact enuf for clocking a DJ mix to a midi seqeuncer, unfortunately...
Anyhow, i do use the voyager to give me a fairly accurate midi clock from audio coming in from the DJ to sync to the Roland V5..

[LEVLHED]

true, they are "close enough" for running audio efx too (like my MoFX) but just don't cut it for keeping a sequencer (i.e.MC505) in time w/ records like they claim...I imagine it does the trick w/ the V5!

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
true, they are "close enough" for running audio efx too (like my MoFX) but just don't cut it for keeping a sequencer (i.e.MC505) in time w/ records like they claim...I imagine it does the trick w/ the V5!

It is a shame, I got the federation with high hopes as it has a 1/10 0f a BPM gradiation which should do it, but sadly it just doesn't:sad:

[krokodril]

i've tried to do this with different software solutions...
to find out they all 'kinda'do the job... (simple spectre analysis timed it best)
But by now there MUST be some software for it????

anyone?

[robotfunk]

People assume its easy for a computer because its easy for a human.
IT AINT EASY!
For a human it is easy because we are used to finding patterns in reality... if you look at the number stream of digital audio.. good luck finding such patterns.

hardly any BPM detect algo works really well, included the Red Sound thingies (I own one too).
There is 1 algo I found last year that is really impressive, but it eats up an entire computer's cpu time.

[LEVLHED]

you should quantify that a little, its very hard to do in realtime...the auto-BPM in PCDJ is super, it analyses an MP3 and gives you a bpm down to 1/100th! very accurate...then saves the bpm in the IDv3 header...

what was the program you found last year, robotfunk?

[robotfunk]

This is much different. I suspect what that app does is work with the length of the track and tries to find a 'number of beats' that fits into the track length. This is so much easier than listening to a stream and trying to make sense of it.

The thing I meant is this paper, published in October last year
http://www.cs.tut.fi/sgn/arg/music/jams/waspaa2001.pdf

you can hear some amazing examples of how well it tracks here
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~klap/iiro/overview2001/tatum.html
and there you also find a link to the PD implementation.
Just don't think you will get the computer to do something else at the same time :)

[LEVLHED]

no, PCDJ actually analyzes the tracks "energy", not just the length.

[robotfunk]

Well what I meant is that it knows the length of the track, which is a very usuful start for BPM analysis. A 'real' BPM analysis algo has to work w/o this information, and this is a million times harder.

[spark]

thanks oh thanks - why I haven't asked this earlier is beyond me!

i've been wanting a midi beat/clock and spectrum analyser for some time, just a little box of magic ;)

VDMX3 has the spectrum side of things covered now, and i don't think a box could do it as you need to be able to tweak and monitor the filter curves to get anything useful out of them.

which leaves the red sound micro sync... definately on my shopping list. it'd be *really* cool if someone could write a more extended review of one, especially if they could give examples of tracks it just can't cope with...

robo - what would be the minimum spec to run the computer-based analysis? an older video-redundant laptop maybe?

toby

[robotfunk]

give examples of tracks it just can't cope with...

Well anything syncopated, quirky forget it. Aphex Twin you are not gonna follow with it :) House and Techno work best, you can upgrade old Vogagers from V1 to V2 by asking them to send a new chip. This upgrade slightly improves recognition of breakbeat kind of stuff but when the music starts to get interesting the unit gets lost :) Also when it is not totally spot on the tempo keeps rushing and dragging, never a constant pace. This is good enough for visuals but unacceptable for music.
Funny how the eye is much more forgiving in this respect.

The algo I mentioned OTOH can track the most bizarre free jazz and does not get flummoxed by tempo changes or syncopations.
It will cost you a dedicated machine of roughly 6-700 mhz to cope with it realtime, running a PD patch. I can't justify dedicating a machine for that task, and if something is so hard for a computer and so easy for a person, why let the computer do it? I found that tapping a key to the beat of the music, every once in a while (when you notice it starts to go out of sync) a nice and simple solution.

[spark]

hmm well it seems context is all here!

microsync - for visuals use i think it will be fine as its purpose will be to give the visuals a driving sync to a driving beat, when there is not such a discernable beat i would want the visuals to go more abstract and fluid and so all is good... its cheap and small after all ;)

but yeah a 700Mhz pc is a bit OTT for me too... no such use for redundant hardware here.

oh - and keytapping not an option when you're doing an allnighter and wanna dance! but that's the variety of us types here...

[robotfunk]

haha I especially made some autopilot options in flowmotion a week before I had to do a 10-7 hour set in the main room of an event where I would indeed rather be dancing :)
It came to good use that night :)

I would say that if you get the tempo right and wander off.. in 30 minutes there won't be THAT big a tempo change on most kind of DJ sets. Even if its a bit off it works if its near the beat or even exactly on the offbeat. I'd rather leave something running that I knew would only drift a bit in 30 mins than something that would go all over the place when something interesting is happening in the music.

[spark]

hmm see your point there... but if its a relatively cheap external midi clock vs the internal vdmx clock on its rammed cpu, i'd go for the external option every time and get the detection for free! ;)