Church VJs WAS: Church looking to purchase used video mixer [Archive]

holly

29th July 2004, 02:09 PM

Well, without trying to sound judgemental (like wordyV), discos/churches, I don't really see a big difference aside from the target age group and maybe the volume. The message is generally the same: Love thy neighbor. Whether it's an inspiring mix by a great DJ or an inspiring message from an orator, the general effect is still the same. Socialize, group synergy, connect on a spiritual level, focus communal attention.... Oh, and of course special fx lighting and a rockin' sound system. Why not visuals and projections? Are you upset that churches pass a collection plate while clubs overcharge you for watered-down booze in a plastic cup...? I mean, which one is your friend, really?

Anyway, it's all about manipulating a willing crowd so they feel good enough to get thru the rest of the dreary workweek. What's wrong with that...? Churches are still considered one of the best places to find a guy, much better than clubs.:love2:
Most clubs could learn to add a little more "community" to their message, and (in my opinion) many churches could learn to be a little more "fun". We're all on the same path, why not learn from each other? Sure I was burned by churches as a kid, but it's not like I haven't been burned by clubs too....

P-Sam, don't be put off. We'd actually be fascinated to see how you are using projections to work with the sermons, and what kind of imagery you are using behind the text/lyrics. Do you only use projections during the songs? What about as people enter? During prayer (most people are probably looking at their feet anyway, why not something inspiring)?

WordyV, you MUST have been raised Southern Babdist. Not *every* sect believes music is the work of the devil. Anymore than all clubs have free sex and drugs in the bathrooms.
:cool:

holly

29th July 2004, 02:40 PM

Akira, Edirol is STILL very much in the church market:
http://www.edirol.com/worship/

seex

29th July 2004, 05:07 PM

This is amazing, next time im looking for a video applaince ill go to the local churche.

But seriolusly, pastorsam tell us what will be the subject of your clips, what do you intend to adchieve with your imagery?

What yure describing are moments where video is the only source of information and therefore can take over ones attention completley ,and the part of video bacgrounds for lyrics... everyone is looking at the screen constantly, this situations are reare.

you will have the opportunity to hold the attention of your viewers for a long time, What will you show?

littlecatalyst

29th July 2004, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by akira_k
??? Really? why?

akira you never done LSD on a sunday morning and gone to church?:alien:?

j/k and please don't run away pastorSam, actually there are quite a few VJs here who have regular gigs in church.. check ((but ignore the obvious sarcasm, mine especially)) this thread (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=4217) and you'll see all the other VJs who are doing stuff in church.

and all kidding aside; as for visuals helping coax some spirituality into the chilren of the divine... amen! :yep:

akira_k

29th July 2004, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by littlecatalyst
akira you never done LSD on a sunday morning and gone to church?:alien:? Nope sorry, I rather not go into the church, not even drugged
;D

littlecatalyst

29th July 2004, 11:30 PM

yeah i hear ya akira (though i gotta say I WAS KIDDING. is it my delivery?)
churches and whatnots... but hey if ya gotta go to church dont ya want kewl cgi pics and matrix-multicam shots of the big G and his Son doing all that righteousy stuff?? what about the Passion of the C remix during the sermon? or maybe even do someting with all the hells from simpson and south park remixed (love that stan/sadam thing, though now thats prolly not as cool).. i think it woudl be a neat artistic challenge to do some dope-ass church mash-ups.. yknow, stuff that could *enhance* the sermons.... this stuff could be great fodder for some christian-techno AV band. hmmmmm (ilots of $$$$ in the USA for wacko right wind christian end-of-the-world-and-we-win, and-all-sinners-go-to-hell-entertainment these days....) there's way big cash in that--- aside from the afformentioned soul saving fringe benefits

aki u might wanna give it a try

holly

30th July 2004, 08:44 AM

Please Lil'Cat. Protestants would NOT have scenes of the "Big G" chillin' with Gabe and crew, as images of the Lord is what is profane -- not music. In the Top 10 of sins, so to speak-- "graven images/idolatry" and what not. Only the Catholics would have the animated windowpanes of alligorical stories and the dope disciples distributing the funky message. Protestants would have a pleasant photomontage of everyday miracles: flowers blooming, the sun streaming through the clouds, a rainbow that says "I'll never whack all of you at once again, promise!"..... Very Gointhewoodsandsquatsi.

Oh well. Since it seems fairly reasonable that s'P'am won't be back, I guess it s'ok to bring up the whole charlitan/snakeoil salesman aspect of organized religion. Why IS it illegal for someone to claim a chinese herb can cure your liver, but these guys can run around practicing hodoo double-speak and claim to save your everlasting soul? I mean, why is there no regulation against un-provable medical quackery? Churches should all be turned into secular community centers and their tax-free property given back to the people who paid for it. Especially the catholic pederastin' priests. Those old cross-dressin bitches need to go directly to jail.

s'P'am, come back! All is forgivin if it turns out you are Episcopal! We LIKE churches with women and gay bishops, and non-discriminatory weddings.... But if your one of the other 1000 bigot religions then BUH-BYE! Don't need ya never did!

http://www.wetcircuit.com/VJf/kali.jpg
This is a picture of KALI, the *best* God of all. Goddess of night, death, and destruction. She has a skirt made out of men's hands (maybe they tried to grope her on the dancefloor and she used the sword on them), and she boogie-oogie-oogies on her prostrate husband all night long (he's the guy on the floor who btw seems to be luvin it) you know, so her barefeet don't get sticky or step in broken glass or nuthin -- he's a nice guy! Her weapons are her crystal eyes, driving every man mad. Black as the dark night, she was. Had what no one else had. YeeeOOOOW! ...oh sorry, that was someone else....

littlecatalyst

30th July 2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by holly
Please Lil'Cat. Protestants would NOT have scenes of the "Big G" chillin' with Gabe and crew, as images of the Lord is what is profane -- not music. In the Top 10 of sins, so to speak-- "graven images/idolatry" and what not. Only the Catholics would have the animated windowpanes of alligorical stories and the dope disciples distributing the funky message. Protestants would have a pleasant photomontage of everyday miracles: flowers blooming, the sun
what do i know? my (forcefed until my escape) religion allows no graven images at all... only cheesy candelabras, wierd cookies/crackers and potato pancakes....

Originally posted by holly
Oh well. Since it seems fairly reasonable that s'P'am won't be back, u don't think it was that LSD in Church comment, do you?

Originally posted by holly
I guess it s'ok to bring up the whole charlitan/snakeoil salesman aspect of organized religion. Why IS it illegal for someone to claim a chinese herb can cure your liver, but these guys can run around practicing hodoo double-speak and claim to save your everlasting soul? I mean, why is there no regulation against un-provable quackery? yeah, like that Benny Hill guy who cures diseases and gets satan out of ya! that shit should be verified in a double-blind study peer reviewed and then he can go back to his Jeeeeeeesuuuuuuusing fo sho-- heck, i'd even go (I gotthis back pain that just wont go away....)

Originally posted by holly
Churches should all be turned into secular community centers and their tax-free property given back to the people who paid for it. Especially the catholic pederastin' priests. Those old cross-dressin bitches need to go directly to jail.

TESTIFY! AMEN! CAN I GET A WITENSS!!

http://www.wetcircuit.com/VJf/kali.jpg
Originally posted by holly
This is a picture of KALI, the *best* God of all. Goddess of night, death, and destruction. She has a skirt made out of men's hands (maybe they tried to grope her on the dancefloor and she used the sword on them), and she boogie-oogie-oogies on her prostrate husband all night long (he's the guy on the floor who btw seems to be luvin it) um, Holls, whiel i totally dig your take on religion and think that kali is one of the dopest of the Gods, i am pretty sure thatthe story there is about when kali thought that she killed (being god of death and all) her beau, who was actually faking it, and while she thought that she did kill him, she got up on him and was like dancing walking on him but then he jumps up and surprises her. kali can't kill siva silly. for me i think their kid is a cool God, got his head cutt-off and then they fused an elephant head on to his neck, but he don't mind, he even removes your obstacles.... take that joshua and zebubulon! back to babylon with ye and your angry jealous God

littlecatalyst

30th July 2004, 11:25 AM

oh and dont get me started on those bestselling books in the USA right now; Holy shit (and i do mean Holy shit) or just shit, you decide (http://www.leftbehind.com/channelbooks.asp) all good grease-stained kentucky fried christians are around at teh end o' times, jesus comes back as a pissed off john rambo and slays all the sinners (but with love, baby, it's all about the love).

...oh and what is that? a $42M book-deal? talk about 72Virgins waiting fanatical; ...they make dressing up in a black face mask and chopping off a few heads online seem normal... and you thought i was kidding about a Passion re:mix:scared:

holly

30th July 2004, 08:43 PM

Hi-larious! Didn't you have Hebrew comix? We didn't have nuthin as fancy as these illustrated novels, but I remember I had this one comic that was all about Revelations (the big apocolypse final act in christianity in case ya missed it). I loved that comic and I read it like every night! Every page was like the hunky young priest (kinda looked like the Marlboro Man) rattling on about salvation as the world fell apart, and there were prostitutes and war and skeletons on almost every page. Woooo! I wish so bad that I still had a copy of that (or at least remembered the name, dammit). There was this one prostitute who looked just like Pam Greer: so gorgeous.
:love:

i am pretty sure that the story there is about when kali thought that she killed (being god of death and all) her beau, who was actually faking it, and while she thought that she did kill him, she got up on him and was like dancing walking on him but then he jumps up and surprises her. kali can't kill siva silly.
...Aww, that's just one of their sex games. Being that he represented the earth (and all that was fertile in it) and she is like big scary nighttime that comes and dances over the earth at the end of everyday, and they get off on it, and then he pops up eventually and SUPRIZE: sunshine!
:sun:
Then they do it. It's like kinky foreplay that makes the world go around.... You know, I think they are the only happily married couple in god-dom. Lots of sex, lots of adventures. *sigh*

Kyle

31st July 2004, 07:55 AM

I have this weird image of Gene Simmons dancing in my head....im gonna have nightmares tonight:help:

but speaking of gods....Lady Salvia:love:
http://www.sagewisdom.org/skapastoralarge.jpg

WordVirus23

31st July 2004, 03:09 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by holly
[B]Hi-larious! Didn't you have Hebrew comix? We didn't have nuthin as fancy as these illustrated novels, but I remember I had this one comic that was all about...........QUOTE]

I've had a copy of Watchtower for YEARS... THE LURE OF SATANISM. its hilarious:pirate:

..james...

Lady Salvia is NOT to be taken lightly ;)

alangeering

10th August 2004, 08:41 PM

It's probably a good thing I've been away for the last 16 days.

Come on guys & girls, next time I'm doing a church gig you're invited and you can come and play with whatever equipment is on show.

Books, the spoken word, drama, music for years were the main communication methods of the world, and consequently the world also.
Now that presidents give telivised addresses and kids watch MTV and cartoon network for hours it's obvious we;ve added "video" to our list.

So why is there surprise that churches use this communication method? (unless you believe video is intrinsically evil... but on this board I doubt it).

Alan

holly

10th August 2004, 11:03 PM

Yes! EVIL! Television is the work of the devil and that's why I love it! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!!!!

Aw, Alan. I defended churchin' for a while in this thread, but really I have to make fun of my own Southern Babdist upbringing. It was just silly. All about Satan this and the END is nigh! My pastor had a sign on his office door that was a big black clock counting 11:59 and bold black letters saying: It's later than you THINK!!! BWA-HA-HA-ha-ha-ha!

videotechno

10th August 2004, 11:45 PM

you people are cwazy! :)

pastor sam - if you've got a nice, stable computer to run things on, maybe look into a program called MediaShout. it does song-lyric-keying over moving backgrounds & a bunch of other fun stuff. it's keying is incredibly easy to setup, and looks better than a lot of the lower-end video mixers. you can playback video clips & all right from within the program--only slightly annoying is the lack of transitions to/from video [just straight cuts].

if the bulk of the video stuff you'll be using is captured/edited on your PC, then you can keep the signal quality higher [VGA straight into the projector, instead of downscaling/scan converting the PC's signal to S-video or composite] than a mixer would allow.

what we use at the church i work at is 2 sony PCs running powerpoint + a DV cam/DVD player for playback + occasionally camera signal from another mixer ~ running through a panasonic MX-20 into our projector. the mixer allows nice dissolves from powerpoint to playback to IMAG, etc.

i may be switching over to MediaShout soon tho'... anyway, check it out here if you'd like: http://www.mediashout.com or take a look around here if you haven't already: http://www.churchmedia.net

feel free to e-mail me if you'd like any more specifics on what we're currently doing and/or other random things i've tried. i've helped with some large youth conferences in our state, and last week was involved with a christianese version of american idol. :D there's a little bit of info about it here: http://www.khord.com/01.htm [although most of my cheesy new site isn't finished yet]

unfold

11th August 2004, 07:15 AM

http://php.hku.nl/~tijmen/recent/indoctrination.jpg

now with video !

Anyone

11th August 2004, 09:05 AM

Come on, don't be shy, hands up who's ever VJ'ed for a church service before?

I wonder if they would try the same tricks as club promoter,
to not pay us, but on a different slant:

"Sorry, we don't have any money to pay you,
but VJing at this event would very good for your salvation"

:rolleyes: :P

Ne1

alangeering

11th August 2004, 09:24 AM

Off Topic:
Churches are very honest (usually) when it come to payment. They will let you know upfront what they can pay and then stick to it. Sometimes the ammount they can afford is low (not all churches are big superchurches, just as not all local music events are as big as superclubs - and budgets scale accordingly), but it's up to you to decide if you want to work for that ammount.

On topic:
For low price look for Videonics MX1 or Panasonic vision mixer 2nd hand. I bought my MX1 for ?300 new, but I doubt you will fond any new ones now.
MediaShout is indeed a good program, I've used it in church and theatrical environments. VJs prob won't use it much as it's not great at quickly loading a new bank of clips. MediaShout is great in church and theatre environments because it stably plays long (yes, very long) clips and has a que list. I've emailed the designers once or twice and got very helpful replies.

Note:
Pastor Sam just asked a question about equipment, he didn't ask for a critique (friendly word)/ bashing (possibly more accurate description) of his personal beliefs. Pastor Sam didn't come with a sermon, yet it seems many of you have.

Personal Note:
I am slightly dissapointed by the words of some members/posts on this forum. I love the company of artists, inventors and VJs because of their open mindedness. I still have hopes that as the forum and it's members mature, people from all backgrounds will be able to take part without fear of their personal thoughts and beliefs publically maligned. (there are other forums for that).

Alan G

charlielangridge

11th August 2004, 09:43 AM

Good call Alan,

If people don't wnat to goto / vj in church, don't! There is no need to make condesending comments.

klumsy

11th August 2004, 10:59 AM

__________________
"I can't believe it's not Vegemite!"

your location says you are in washington, but your sig indicates you are kiwi, aussie or possibly brit?

as for best tool for a church for visuals, its really up to who is going to be using it.. for the average barely technical user, sadly powerpoint - which i think you can play flash content inside it, as well as videos..

for me personally when i get around to doing some nice visuals in my church it will be in visualjockey.

littlecatalyst

11th August 2004, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by alangeering
Note:Pastor Sam just asked a question about equipment, he didn't ask for a critique (friendly word)/ bashing (possibly more accurate description) of his personal beliefs. Pastor Sam didn't come with a sermon, yet it seems many of you have.

Puhlease,

if you look at the first number of replies, they are not bashing at all-- they're pretty helpful. and i would assume that someone who saves souls woulds know when entering a VJ forum that he may no longer be in the company of the choir.

the "masterSpam" comment was because he CROSSposted all over the glorious place-- maybe you didnt see that but it was one of the best crossposting i have evcer seen, and righteous or not, around here you do that u piss 'em off... u know that..

and he was also fully warned that this is a place where he can find information but we may be a little rough around teh edges... (one of those warn ing came from me where i also supplied a link to a whole Church post) BYW pastor Sam never wrote back to say ok, or to say thanks, or to say go to church, nothing. so now the lunatics are left in the asylum with no supervision... what do you expect bere but something that breaks down into anarcho religious?

wnad what would it have been like if say someone from the WorldBank was asking about gear advice for a new VJ display they are looking to build? or someon efrom the Republican National Convention was all like: hey should i get an edirol? would you expect us to be on our best behavior? Pastor Sam got the info he was looking for and then left-- i think perhaps you were offended by what was said more than he who has already left the building.. sorry for insulting you

but also alangeering, so you know, there is a very dangerous religion in the United States that is not quite in the UK; its called something like "Krishtun" and its a little mix of Babptist/JehovasWitnesses and a non-sectarian lifestyle masqueraded as compassion and righteiusness (and i think has something to do with fried chicken too, but not sure) and the books i mention are not my fiction; they are on the NYT Bestsellers list, they are all about Jeezuz coming back and kicking all the indifels into hell. they are scarier than any propaganda the Taliban ever had (even though i don't agree with their hand chopping/ stonig/beheading laws neither). not to mention the politics of those who have used el Christ's words/story for their own vile purposes over the past say thousand years?

if it is safe to say that both the republican and the world bank would get a lot more hostility than pastor sam got. sorry to offend you, but thats one of the things about this place VJF people are very passionate about what they do, and it obviously extend beyond the screens into their very hearts and minds and <shudder> souls...

holly

11th August 2004, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by charlielangridge
If people don't wnat to goto / vj in church, don't! There is no need to make condesending comments.
It's like I said before: Sure I was kinda burned by churches as a kid, but how many more times was I burned by clubs later on...?!

I wonder if maybe it's the Americans who've been more critical of religion? Alan, Charlie, you guys must have some idea of how things are over here. Religion (with the capital R) is in a very bad state from Catholic churches going bankrupt after court settlements for covering up epidemic child-sex abuse to the Episcipalians tearing themselves in half because some stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that gays are part of American life. Churches have also recently sold out their congregations' memberships to the re-elect Bush campaign selling home addresses and personal information in an attempt to target conservative voters. We have a president who has stated for the record that "the president he most resembles is Jesus Christ" -- I kid you not. Jerry Falwell, televangelism, Jim Jones in the jungle with the kool-aide, Mormons, Waco.... The US has a long sad history of religious abuses, quackery, even "suicide" cults.

The scolding is appropriate for making a new member feel unwelcome, but as Lil'Cat pointed out there *was* interest in how he would VJ in church and what footage would be shown and several invitations to come back (quite on topic), but he was clearly fly-by-night.....

You also have to acknowledge that religion here isn't about the friendly little pastor in the village who visits the elderly for tea and occaisionally solves crimes. I speak from experience that Religion (the one with the capital R) in America and church leaders in particular have to change or be abandoned. It is so out of step with reality, and honestly guys there are no end to abuse and money laundering scandals. Churches prey on the poor and elderly (I sound so communist manifesto...). I'm sure no one doubts the possibility of a nice, honest independant pastor and a caring, genuine congregation, but this is the land of seeing Jesus in a tortilla. You are going to have to accept that there is very real, and very justified, hatred towards Religion right now, and it is a backlash for a culture of abuses. It doesn't make ALL churches bad, but you'll have to spend some time here -- especially in the South and the Southwest -- before you can condemn us all for being heartless and immature.

holly

11th August 2004, 01:23 PM

Wait! I just re-read this thread and it seems fairly tame. No one bashed S'Pam for his personal beliefs. In fact, no one really said anything overly derrisive about christianity until just now.... Well, except for that heathen Lil'Cat posting comments about Kentucky Fried Christians. What do you want? His godless faith has obviously misguided him.:angel:

Guys, aside from some honestly average joking for this forum (which Sam would have to be from Mars to take personally) and some discussions of religious imagery in other mediums (once Sam didn't return and wouldn't tell us what HE planned to show what else was there to discuss?), and then the obvious segue into other religions which are perhaps more visually developed.... And a few childhood anecdotes..., this is a pretty average thread. The only person who said he wouldn't go to church said absolutely nothing negative about religion, he simply said he wouldn't go even under the influence of drugs! This is hardly bashing....

You'll have to forgive Lil'Cat and myself if we're under the impression that everything that passes thru these forums is fair game for humor and random culture vulturing. Afterall, not everyone believes that churches and pastors are so sacred as to be treated as better than the rest of the world (or worse, btw). I think you guys are honestly being overly sensitive -- like feeling guilty for a sex scene on TV when your mom is in the room.... We like Sam as an equal -- as a fellow VJ. But we are not going to bow and kiss rings and such and show reverence for a reverend (which he didn't seem to require either). If Sam wants to hang, there are plenty of invitations. I interpret it that he is another DJ "dabbling" in visuals. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing that gives him special status either. If the video bug bites him he'll be back, and we'll treat him as we'd treat any of our members: with full disdain and as much humiliation and insults as we can heap on.
:yep:

It just occured to me that perhaps PASTORSAM has abandoned that avatar and re-upped his membership as SAMGOD our 6000th member.... Hmmmm. Coincedence?

Anyway, if you want to split the thread and put the random stuff under either INSPIRATION or GEN CHAT I'm sure no one would have a problem with that.

alangeering

11th August 2004, 02:03 PM

Totally agree there should be space for discussion on use of religious imagry, the use of video in churches etc.

I'm not sure the religion is ace/religion sucks debate is going to further VJing, rather I think it will put off people of all persuasions.

If anyone would like to start a thread looking at religious imagery or use of video in places of worship then I would be happy to contribute my experience. From the private messages I've recieved today it seems there is an interest in this topic.

Alan

littlecatalyst

11th August 2004, 02:10 PM

.. i still think it would be fun to remix The Passion

holly

11th August 2004, 02:40 PM

VJNada is doing a performance at Angel Orensanz Center (http://www.orensanz.org/index.html) in NYC. It's a delapidated synagogue (pre-civil war) turned secular community/performance center, which ironically still holds meetings with religious groups despite its de-holy status.... Fantastic space on the lower east side:
http://www.orensanz.org/images/orensanzcenter_2.jpg
Photo doesn't do it justice as it's in a gorgeous state of decay and creeky-ness.
If anyone would like to start a thread looking at religious imagery or use of video in places of worship then I would be happy to contribute my experience.
Well, Alan, why not do it here since this thread is already started and in need of a direction.... Or do you want us to beg..., you coy bastard. Ok..., PLEASE Alan, pleeeaaase tell us about how you've used religious imagery. We wanted to discuss it before but no one joined in with actual experience, so PLEEEAAASE tell us some real facts and we won't have to make our own fun. P-L-E-A-S-E!? We are begging....
:love:

When I was little (and raised Babdist Protestant) this is what God looked like:
http://www.suite101.com/files/topics/13646/files/crepuscularray1.jpg
Since we were forbidden to think of God as having a body or face or human body parts (despite the "created in his image" line in the bible) the sun beaming through clouds was the only representation I knew. In fact, I remember seeing cloudy days like this and thinking it was actually God up in the sky.... Kinda weird now because I think it made Him more like a pagan sun god or something.... Often it was the sun peaking through clouds after a rainstorm and bonus if it had a rainbow because that suggested the "Vengeful God" who was in ultimate control of your life (and death). This is Southern Babdist, mind you -- there was no "free will", only reward and punishment.... It wasn't until I was like 11 or 12 that I began seeing Catholic images where it's ok to show God's face, and Jesus bleeding and stuff. I was totally shocked! My best friend in highschool had to explain to me why being Jewish meant she wasn't going to go to Hell, because there was no Hell.... As educated as you get, I don't think you ever really shake your first impressions of religion.... I've been doing a lot of cloud renderings lately and always cloud photography. Who knows, maybe I'm sub-conciously seeking that powerful belief-image from childhood.

Alan, I think there is no way to have a discussion of religious images without discussing religion as well. We're all grown-ups here. We are aware there is no ONE TRUE GOD, and religious icons vary drastically from culture to culture -- even within cultures. I think we can behave ourselves. Except for Mausi, natch.

littlecatalyst

11th August 2004, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by holly
ironically still holds meetings with religious groups despite its de-holy status....
holls-- in the 'brew faith, nothing can ever be unholyized. once a point of light energy has been created it can not be snuffed, so they would see the angel orensanz as a further manifestation of that righteous juju (no pun intended)

and alan (and samgod-- and vjVishnu for that matter) i mean no disrespect to the church-- personally obviously i dig the somewhat more inclusive, less definable (http://www.stuartwilde.com/Articles/SW_articles_infection_goodness.htm) types of god-thing, but do have respect for the esoteric aspects of all the big 3 (and secondary, teriary... heck even the harry krishnas and like the guy says in that article the Irish guru O'Many Paddy Hum), and all kidding aside... i'm the one that was asking about it in the first place.. as soon as i saw edirol's church link; i wanted to knwo who was playing in churches and what they were mixing.

so i will shut up about remixing mel, and hope that this thread can evolve.. maybe it is just about church, or maybe open to some sort of mixing (like this kind (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0874810507/qid=1092239617/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-8302783-5188625?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) of stuff) so more about religion/spirituality and nondenominational) ..but even if its just for christian imagery and mixing in churches i think its about time for a thread like that..

videotechno

11th August 2004, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by klumsy
your location says you are in washington, but your sig indicates you are kiwi, aussie or possibly brit?

i initially put that as my quote to tease morph [aussie] after a round in the chat room. he was teasing me about silly americanisms [i think PBJ sandwich was one of them], and i was trying to convey how little i liked vegemite, or something of that nature.

i'd change the quote if i wasn't so darn lazy... :D

remotely on topic: a used videonics mx1 would probably be a good option...

littlecatalyst

12th August 2004, 11:11 AM

ok so me and holly who may have been obnoxious or whatevah are the only vocal two who want to see something happen here??

and maybe it's cause im a sinner and don't deserve to be fed the pearls.... or maybe its cause its all just more hypocritical bs--

i mean i have a stong suspicion that this has set off a storm of PMs and that there is some sub-rosa +vj thing happening and we dont get to share in it or glean from its wisdom (tho its ok to ask questions when you need help, sure) how very unchristian! not my place to judge but on a scale of 10- turning the other cheek and sticking it out and helping the heathens not go to hell, to 1- running away from the heathens it's (damnation is) their problem not yours, besides they have pictures of strange women gods with skulls, and talk about drugs (on a VJ site! crazy huh?),

if this cristian thing stays below the radar you guys are hitting something like 2or 4 on the scale: Onward Christian Soldiers! Tarry Not! stand up for yourselves. and let us in

holly

12th August 2004, 11:40 AM

Har har har. Doncha feel the un-love?
:heart: :fridge: :heart:

Tell me more of this satanic-heathen path you call He-Brew. It sounds like a bunch of burly guys drinking beer. I'd ask my husband but he skipped He-Brew school to play ball and knows absolutely zilch. I ate guh-felt-ah fish once. It's disgusting. Tastes like catfood with horseradish. They didn't let me wear a yarmulka.... mean.

I like the Muslim thing that's all complex patterns. It's a nice visual way to have a religion; all textiles and textures...
http://www.muslimcollege.ac.uk/images/pattern.gif

Kyle

12th August 2004, 12:24 PM

^^^^that looks like this blotter papper i once...meh nevermind.

littlecatalyst

12th August 2004, 01:08 PM

just like that poet Kabir man, that stuff is potent and theres a tonn of good material in the Qu'ran. totally. i like how in Islam- if you pollute the water you are a Kaffer~ a heretic annd deserve to be stoned (me, i like being stoned, but that's a different story), somehow PetroSaudi's brand of Xtremeislam donesn't seem to put as much weight on that as they do on not seeing a womans ankles... the whores!

the brew'nation.. urgh, don't get me started- invoilved in some of the absolutely best and worst this world has seen, and wierd porportions for such a small scrappy little part of the global population (but thats more cultural-,sociopoliticoeconomic, not religio) on the religio side there's a way heavy esoteric side that seems to be ignored regularly. and replaced with a moral form of jurisprudence (this is the original judicial system, ju'know, but totally theocratic) and just like all the other unchecked systems, over time it got worn down to reasoning and justifications and ways to control power and handle taxations... its all there in the old testament. i dig the esoteric side as like that dude says; they're all really essentially paths to the same thing..just that the more (dis)organized these spirit systems get, the more tainted they get and the truths get further and further obsucred and replaced with the Man, when its suppsed to be about you and the big G.

((this is the funniest video gear & exchange thread ever)) me, i dig the Essenes, 'cause everyone from the Pope to the highest kabbalist rabbis get freaked when you say that the E's r the dope shit-- plus they were only like 5,000 years ahead of their time (cut through all that extra stuff, buah!)

littlecatalyst

12th August 2004, 01:12 PM

hmmm..

many2

12th August 2004, 01:30 PM

I also love muslim graphic patterns. Just like some other religions, this one prohibits the use of graphic representation of people. This had lead the muslims to use other means to express themselves and show beautiful works of art. Beside the wonderful pattern work (which can be related to various chaos/maths/symmetry/pattern research), the also did a lot of text-images : almost abstract illustrations made with interwoven arabic letters. Architectural use of patterns in the muslim world is amazing - there are patterns there that would have made Escher go crazy (maybe not but I am quite sure this has been an inspiration for him).

littlecatalyst

12th August 2004, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by many2
I also love muslim graphic patterns. .......the also did a lot of text-images : almost abstract illustrations made with interwoven arabic letters. Architectural use of patterns in the muslim world is amazing - there are patterns there that would have made Escher go crazy

mmmm.... pretty

littlecatalyst

12th August 2004, 01:53 PM

these images are not inspirational for JC religios but mebbe there are some vjs playing in mosques out there who are digging these images.. :yep:

disassembler

12th August 2004, 02:12 PM

how you find Jesus.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/images/archive/lsd_blotter_ap_purple_jesus.jpg

holly

12th August 2004, 02:56 PM

Ah-HA! Is that the little wafers the Catholics eat?

seex

12th August 2004, 03:08 PM

Hey, count me in! I like to discover new possibilities of live video display, and id take on a church ceremony anytime

I have been away for some time, reminding myself how beutiful this life is if you can switch off your handy and just lie under the sun and have an occasional swim in the cristal clear adratic sea. Anyway coming back im realy glad this thread is still up (no thanks to its starter, sadly) i wuld not expect this from any religous persona, leaving people hungry for information and not ussing the chance to shine some light. Religion lost me when i discovered that it can not be preached out side of the boundry ot its own institution.

Like the institution of nature just sums it up for me, that great source of light and heat up there is probably as close ill get to god, being a photographer anyway. Its the source that makes all i do possible and all i can do is pay my respect...to the house of the rising sun.

going trough threads that have disscused this topic i cant get over the fact that there are vj-s here who do church ceremonys and dont post here, exept for Alangeering, spliting the thread seems to heve an castration effect to the topic rather than making order. And it seems only fare to continue this discussion here since it sarted here and qite nicley developed from the original qestion (i still think its not too far from the topic). The title sais that its a church that needs a video mixer, i mean why is this necassary to know if all yure looking for is a mixer, it culd just simply say a vj is looking for a videomixer is the fact that its a church rather than than the usual place meant to be ignored, or what?

Talk about sublime information, or cahange the title to "a church looking for a videomixer but so what it culd also be you"

Hey pastorsam, There must be some way out of here!

littlecatalyst

12th August 2004, 04:10 PM

hmmm (sorry for the public outing, but the only other idea was callup edirol and ask them to invite some church client VJs they know to come here, so) steve (from Newcastle)? Videotechno? BigLoose? NE1? Alan? hello???

we want stories! the good the bad and the viszual..
styles?
clips!!!!

same for any other organized religion VJs (and secular/scorcer/ heathen/mysto... duh). even PastorSam and SamGod (unless you dont do stuff in chirches and/or fit into theother category)

especially clips.. and if Morph doesn't kick us out of this thread, bring on that good 'ol consecration... Testify!

MoRpH

12th August 2004, 04:17 PM

Wow this REALLY has gotten OT for this forum, oh well I have niether the time or inclination to go sorting it all out so I think I'll jsut move and rename the whole thing.

cat

12th August 2004, 05:29 PM

Shit I missed the whole thread :(
I used to do lights and visuals at The House Of God, in Birmingham, where we had the sickest night in town, kind of the Black Sabbath of Techno, Upsidedown crosses, giant goats heads breathing smoke, its the only time Ive ever done my own head in with my own visuals. Unfortunatly they've taken down the fly archive, there was someclassics, only 1 of which ever made the papers amazingly, it was a picture of a stain glass window of an alter boy kneeling in front of a priest, it was the tamest flyer they ever had, just had those paedo-preist overtones that everyone just gets so worked up over, Oh how we laughed...
Quite a few watchtower reworked flyers, jesus wanking through his hand wound
To my mind any religon that says its the only way has got to be worried about people finding out the truth

If theres hell below......

Any of you yanks ever remix any of the Evangelist channels, or would you get strung up for that?
Passion remix sounds cool too!!

In fact anyone fancy sending me a tape of give me the money TV?

Praise the Flawed $$$

http://www.hog.org.uk/ if anyones interested....

WordVirus23

12th August 2004, 07:19 PM

remixing televanglists....

a great idea, I love channel surfing through those guys, they always add great enthusiasism to the other channels...

"We need everyone to raise their hands and PRAISE.... <music> THE SIMPSONsss..."

:)

videotechno

13th August 2004, 03:08 AM

okay, i'll start with some random tidbits of what i do at the church i work at...

i don't get to do too much abstract stuff for the church - most often it's promo clips for coming events/highlight videos from recent events, intros to the sermon, some testimonial things, etc. - we use a lot of still graphics that tie in with the message*, so i play around with photoshop a lot. if the youth group brings in a band for a concert sometimes i'll have fun, but other than that i don't play with vj stuff too much at the church.

we've had a few kids musicals where we've got multiple screens & i get to toss up some fun loops & other tidbits to the music, but that's maybe 2x/year. also, 1-2x/year we'll have a themed event, so i'll have a "music video" with related footage that will kick off the service (one was a video of rock-climbing footage that i cut to a track by hybrid). then a silly or more-narrative video sandwiched in-between other stuff later on in the service.

as for the gear...
we've got a few sony miniDV camcorders [2 of them are 3chips], and a neat little JVC camcorder that records HD footage onto DV tapes. the mixer for the cameras is a panasonic AVE55; the signal from that goes into a VCR to record services, but it's also routed into another panasonic mixer [MX20] for any IMAG stuff. the MX20 is also fed by a couple of sony PCs & either a DV cam or DVD player for clip playback. our projector is on it's last leg, but we'll likely be replacing it in the next coupla months.

for other events it's usually the MX20, a laptop running fuse or soak or vJo, 2+ DVD players and sometimes a DV cam. these "other events" can be anything from a small local party to a statewide youth conference. small local party stuff is gonna be your typical vj-ish stuff with a little portable projector. statewide youth conference is gonna be multiple screens, some with IMAG, crazy lighting stuff, etc. content for the conference stuff varies quite a bit--during the intros & faster/rockin' band songs i can have more fun... during the slower tracks there'll typically be 1-3 loops that i'll fade in/out as the song progresses. often when someone's speaking i'll have a nice, slow loop up. i rely a lot on the mellower stuff from digital juice for the huge youth conference stuff, but i also integrate some nature junk i've shot, or CG clouds/waves from after effects plugs, etc.

i was part of a huge conference/talent show thingy last week--for that i had 3 DVD players running through the MX20, into a scaler/switcher, then into 4 plasmas [that were behind the awards presenters, etc.]. for a huge 16x9 screen we had a desktop + a laptop running through another scaler/switcher, both running MediaShout. we went from a quick intro/bumper clip played from the laptop, switched to a looping title graphic played from the desktop. we had around 40 different categories, so it was good to have a backup. some other guys were running cameras for the IMAG screens, doing title overlay things, etc. there's some other random info about it here: http://www.khord.com/01.htm [the site's not finished yet, so excuse the non-working blender buttons.]

okay, sorry for the excessive rambling here. hope this helps answer some of the questions about church-video-stuff. reply or shoot me a PM if you wanna know more about something specific.
-rick :)

*for example, here's some powerpoint stuff for this weekend's message: http://www.bca-online.com/messages/rob/reallove.htm
[ppoint's web-export is kinda hokey--sorry about that] the main metaphor/illustration is the difference between real & artificial. hence the cross section cut of an artificial apple next to a real apple.

seex

13th August 2004, 08:34 AM

I wuld newer guess that church seremonies are so high tech, what vidotechno mentioned is more than i usualy have in a club that is big on visuals here, in a church here (i do go in, to see the architecture and decor) i have never seen a plasma screen or any other video display device. Its a logical step into improving the impact, but also the risk of completly changing the meaning of the ceremony. Id imagine that churches are qite concerned as to what can be displayed and what not. I just reemembere that a church in Prague (the churc of jesuses most sacred heart at Jiriho Spodjebrad metro station) has a full on suround sound system of small speakers hanginhg from the cealing, that is the most high tech curch setting i ever saw.

I did an event once for the state celebration of our independence (it was the last celebration before going into EU, so it was also a funeral), but anyway the goverment PR office wanted all the lyrics of all the songs performed to see if anything that shusd not be mentioned was in there, they actualy forbid two songs of a rap band that were realy critical towards the social state of our contry and the abusse of power in polytics. Ok, but then no one asked to see what the video will be, i was kinda dissapointed felt like i was left out. But on the other hand i culd show anything i feelt best, so for the official seremony (with all the ambasadors present) the music was a Ravel violin interpretation, and i feelt that butho dance realy fited niclely to the tempo and the sound, but you know butho is performed in the nude (almost), realy reised some eybrows there.

Nature clips sound like something i wuld show too, churche frescos and paintings culd also be sampled in a nice conection to the ceremony...

holly

13th August 2004, 10:05 AM

:jump2:

alangeering

13th August 2004, 10:41 AM

Sorry for the delay, I've been traveling up down and across this island for the last 20 days snatching email when and where I can.

This thread is missing images so once I've done a quick trawl of my external HDDs then I will see if I can add anything.

Thanks,
Alan

alangeering

13th August 2004, 06:45 PM

OK

This isn't in any way comprehensive...

Reasons Churches use Video:
1. Reinforcement - some churches are huge, cameras and screens bring action closer
2. Display Lyrics and Bible Passages
3. Display images relevent to the message
4. Project information based docu-video from missionaries in other parts of the world
5. Project Images Conducive to an atmosphere of worship
6. Project images for reflection or prayer
7. Publicity of Church Events - via TV or in services
8. Preserving the visual theme of a venue/night/service
9. Recording services for people who can't make it
10. For the youg people to play with (i.e. turn church into club)

Introduction:
I've got a feeling that the section most people will be keen to talk about is section 5. I will be away for the next 8 days running video for a Christian organisation, so may do a "gig-report" after that with more information, but feel free to ask questions. Thanks, Alan.

1. Reinforcement:
Imagine if a concert above 3,000 people went off without any AV support... people would be complaining that they couldn't see the performers. The performers would complain they we're not as able to communicate with the people at the back as the front. It's the same in church, if the venue is large, cameras and screens are used to give the people at the back a chance to see the preacher/speaker/teacher/etc.

Example: x001.jpg This illustration of being filled to overflowing (daily) by the Holy Spirit would be lost to the people at the back, (given it was done at waist hight), with cameras all can see.

http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x001.jpg

2. Lyrics and Bible Passages:
When you sing, you do much better with your head up than down (sound going straight into hymn book), so projecting words raises the volume and quality of the congregation's singing. Some people aren't very quick at finding sections of text in their bibles, having the words on screen can help them keep up with the service. (Bibles are usually provided as well to make sure the VJ isn't secretly preverting God's word).

Example: x002.jpg Person singing with words keyed over cross image.

http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x002.jpg

3. Images relevent to the message
If an image speaks 1000 words, then at 25,000 words per second video is a pretty useful communication tool. The bible gives many visual examples, these are best presented visually. See example.

Example: x003.jpg to x005.jpg and x009.jpg: Ehpesians 6, the Armor of God. This passage in the bible lists the many things God has given Christians to protect them from Satan. The bible uses the (then) contemporary analogy of a suit of Roman armor. Most people have not seen such a suit of armor up close, video can help here. Also, taking armor into todays world, the analogy can be updated (see police images).

http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x003.jpg
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x004.jpg
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x005.jpg
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x009.jpg

4. Information based Videos
We (well, some people) watch news on TV to see what's going on in places far from our homes. Members of churches are often around the world, whether starting schools in Chad, caring for aids orphans in South Africa or flying aid and doctors into Sudan. The only support these people get is from church members back at home, and these people are keen to know what their support is achieveing. To this end, more and more overseas workers and charities are making short videos of their work.

Example: x006.jpg My month long trip to Mexico working with a community living on a landfill site.

http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x006.jpg

5. Projecting Images and video conducive to Worship
Why do people VJ in clubs? If you're a VJ then you probably believe that your visuals add something to a club night. Well, the idea of visuals in worship in a church is not so much to add, but to help members into worship. A good example would be the use of natural imagery. Since Christians believe the world was created by God and beauty points back to him, then visual scenes of God's handiwork can promp people to praise him.

Example: I could post a lot here but a great introduction would be http://www.osbd.co.uk who've been creating content for this purpose since 1998 (or earlier. I don't use their stuff much because I prefer to use my own content, but some of their DVDs could easily be mixed into club sets (mroe ambient sets - lots of abstract and nature stuff). Recommended browsing (sometimes give away free content).

Image Example: x010.jpg and x011.jpg Note cross and other imagery on screen.

http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x010.jpg
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x011.jpg

6. Images for Reflection or Prayer
Currently in the news you will see many images of dying children in the Darfour area within Sudan. It's tragic, the images are put in your newspapers and TV adverts to try and raise awareness and aid. The same is done in churches. Much money is raised in churches for such causes, but Christians also believe they can make a difference in another way - prayer. To help people know the situations around the world they can be praying for images and videos can be used.

Example: Don't really need to give any, it's totally explained above.

7. Publicity of Chruch events
Whilst it's rare to see a TV ad for Church, there is the opportunity for using the screens in your church to notify people of up coming events. This is just the notice sheet enlarged - but sometimes with a quick video.

Example: x007.jpg and x008.jpg Projected at end of services. Used same artwork as posters and flyers.

http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x007.jpg
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/x008.jpg

8. Preserving the visual theme to an evening
When there is nothing required on the screen, it can be blank, or you could use it to maintain a theme for the service. A logo or graphic could be used for this purpose.

Example: Short looped video (too big to upload) of spinning 3d logo of youth-targeted event.

9. Recording
Many people are ill or old and can't make it to church, bringing them a video on your next visit can help them still feel a part of it.

10. for the young people to play with
Compare the venue of a church and a club. Both can have similar capacity, sound and video equipment. The differences are that the club has a bar and more lighting. Hire in some lights and the church is ready to party. Lighting hire isn't that much and often a few churches may group together to buy a simple rig. Events tend to be alcohol and drug free to allow the younger age groups entry.

Example: GO to your local club, look at screen, remove any satanic or overly sexual imagery and you've pretty much got it.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Random images.

http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/Slide1.JPG
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/Slide4.JPG
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/Slide6.JPG
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/Slide8.JPG
http://www.geeringweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/alan/Slide9.JPG

3YE

14th August 2004, 02:37 PM

(I told myself i wasn't going to get into this. I did try and resist, but some otherwordly force compelled me...)

part the first: where am i coming from as regards religion, spirituality and the like...

I am going to attempt to describe something with a variety of metaphors, i hope people can follow this and not confuse the words with the ideas

the universe is made up of matter, but matter is pushed around by energy. energy makes all the decisions at a quantum level, which, as we know from the hiesenberg uncertainty principle, is a) fundamentally UNKNOWABLE, an b) affected by the viewer.

if you we're to build a bunch of nanobots, it would be tremendously impracticle to try and program each one individually, so you would have to use some form of intermediary program, a sort of communal, co-ordinating AI that gets it's computing power from a sum of it's individual components.

replace 'nanobot' with 'Human' and 'co-ordinating AI' with 'god'

this would explain some of the heisenberg properties, ie a nanobot can have no conception of the AI it is a part of, and at the same time, by the data it recieves, interprets and re-transmits, have an effect on the outcome of any given event.

this also resolves the conflict between divine predestination and free will. (don't thank me, just send a cheque :-) )

IF (and it's only an if. remember, you either believe or you don't) there is a god, a prime mover, supreme being, then this entity created the blueprint for the universe. this includes all subclasses of entities. some of these divine creations can seem pretty perverse and obfuscated if you cling to any given belief set, namely:

Satan, pedophiles, technology, guns, bombs, wars, the amish, slugs, wet monday mornings, fundamentalists that insist that something can be offensive to the eye of god, macdonalds, other subtly different forms of worship (hello nothern ireland and israel), hippies, drugs, buttfucking rednecks, cancer, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, goths, and so on

the reason i've made such a list above is i am deliberately trying to provoke an emotional response. add your own personal bugbear to that list, because, as the great beast himself would say, everything is allowable, nothing is forbidden

so now there's a question, namely, why would god create a system with totally opposing forces? why are there such things as satanists and heretics when we're told god is an omnipotent force?

answer: you can't create a dynamic, time based system without opposing forces. you can't have a signal without at least two different voltages. you can't have black without white, you can't have day without night, peaches without cream, sun without rain and so on. it's only our chemical (e)motions that make us discern any difference between 'good' and 'bad', and each persons definition differs because each person occupies a different location in space/time.

therefore, everyone does gods will, wether they believe in it or not, wether they like it or not, because they're will is gods will, they're actions part of the equation. or Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law

now when i scanned through Alangeering's pictures the first time, without reading the text, i thought he was making an allusion to a certain galilean anarchist who was always up against the roman riot police. i think the allusion still stands. he preached a doctrine of love, or as another learned sage might say Love is the law

only love will stop people killing each other. only love will make people realise that when they hurt others, they are only going to bring themselves more trouble, and only love tells you to stay out of other peoples business, get on with your own life and stop telling the heretics, heathens, satanists, protestants, catholics, businessmen etc. what's wrong with what they're doing, because if it's a human being doing it, you can be petty sure they know what they're doing. (the idea I'm trying to communicate here is a little difficult to express, 'do as you would be done by' is about the nearest i can get to it) this takes will power, service of god takes strength, doing the right thing is never an easy prospect. or, to put it another way, and to complete my sharing of the point of view that everybody is a part of god, acts according to god's will, and that the truth is inescapable... Love under Will

most people that dis christianity dis it because they believe christian churches operate similar to a thin client network, ie the priest (host server) tells everybody else (client machines) how to think, act and feel. however modern christianity is more like a peer to peer network, without any absolute hierarchy, but still needing a few servers to maintain databases of links and to manage ip address assignment and form protocols. priests do this by maintaining churches (domains) and keeping copies of the bible, (the instruction set, or source code). they also do some of the other things we've come to expect from websites, ie 'Help and Support', and hosting discussion forums. for an example of a really old website, do a google for the 'ziggurat at ur'

the problem i have with organised religion is the codebase is hopelessly out of date, and as a result many people are looking for a more up to date operating system. if catholicism is DOS then modern christians are on NTFS (XP/2000/NT) - all systems that still refer to a central server (M$=god what the f*ck? how did i get here?) but you are allowed to question, ie fiddle with some settings, use third party software etc in order to get an OS that meets your needs. also a lot of people crack it and use it without reference to M$, kind of like we're all using the word 'god', even though we don't formally believe we're christians (kind of like all satanists are christians, because the definition of satan doesn't work without an entity to oppose)

to extend the metaphor, shamanism, sufism, gnosticism etc are akin to linux, ie no centralization, everybody describes they're own codebase/belief system, but sharing of data is allowed and even necessary in order to build these systems, but most of the hard work is done by the lone user, hence the individual installs end up looking radically different. Unix is Judaism, old, powerful, code oriented (caballah, torah, gemitreia etc) and the template for a lot of modern religions) Apple macs are, to my mind like fundamentalist Islam. very usable, but your not allowed to mess with or question the code, and you've got to dis everybody elses OS by default. but maybe I'm over doing it now

FINALLY i get to the point which is...

stop looking for differences and start looking for similarities

or, and i can't believe no-ones quoted this yet:

God is a DJ,
Life is a dancefloor,
Love is the Rythm,
We are the music.

anybody agree, disagree, still paying attention?

fluchtpunkt

14th August 2004, 03:21 PM

---short off topic rant---

posting images that are somthing like 4000 pixels wide makes a thread completely unreadable for me because the text window doesnt fit on my screen anymore and i have to scroll to the right on every line! it's a major turnoff.

---end short off topic rant---

alan,
do you really show images of police in full riot gear as an example of the 'armor of god' that will protect christians from satan? (did i miss something?). to be honest, that gives me the creeps. talk about being political or spreading propaganda!
particularly the image of a roman legionaire followed by a closeup of a police baton scares me as to me that appears as a clear allusion to the roman fasces (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0818304.html), symbol for the authority to punish and namegiver of 'fascism' -- especially so in this context as it is a historic fact that the (catholic) church in europe supported fascism (particularly because they persecuted the 'godless' communists and the 'trechereous' jews), so the argument that such a reproach against a church or christian organization is absurd imo doesn't cut it. also, doesn't showing riot police as an example of the armor of god that protects from satan imply that protesters are 'evil'?
...i'm guessing you weren't aware that people (e.g. me ;) ) could read such a context into those images though.
...
why not use more nonviolent (isn't christianity supposedly about nonviolence?) examples, such as a firefighter in protective gear, an astronaut, a construction worker, ...?

alangeering

14th August 2004, 04:20 PM

Reply about oversize images: Sorted.

alan,
do you really show images of police in full riot gear as an example of the 'armor of god' that will protect christians from satan?

also, doesn't showing riot police as an example of the armor of god that protects from satan imply that protesters are 'evil'?

why not use more nonviolent (isn't christianity supposedly about nonviolence?) examples, such as a firefighter in protective gear, an astronaut, a construction worker, ...?

A specific response: (all quotes in bold)

1. Remember that the images were being used to back up a sermon/message/talk, so in this respect they were put into context.

2. Non-violence vs a baton. In the text (Ephesians 6) "and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. " and the pretext "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but... against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." The sermon clearly started with the context that the armor of God is for use in the spiritual (not physical struggle) and the only offensive weapon given is the word of God (the Bible or Jesus). Christianity does not sanction violence against flesh and blood (against anyone)

3. Protestors vs Rioters.
The armor worn was not anti-protestor gear, it was RIOT gear. There is a difference. People should have a right to protest, and the police are tasked with defending this right (and protecting peaceful protest). Riots on the other hand restrict the freedom of the general public (closing thier communities down, making them say indoors in fear, etc.) and should be controlled.

4. Protestors as evil.
See above, it's not about protestors. You can make your own ideas about whether a rioter is good/evil. I never meant to make this judgement, I just took a contemporary suit of armour, as Paul did in his letter to the Ephesians.

5. Why this suit of armour?
Because it was available. Because it more closely resembles the roman armor in it's elements than any other we could find. Because it was fun - we tested the armour by throwing chairs and furniture at the police officer. (we couldn't even scratch it, and the baton can really hurt).

fluchtpunkt

14th August 2004, 05:05 PM

ok, i can see where you are coming from, and i respect that.
let me try to explain a bit more where i am coming from, how such images could leave such an impression with me.

Originally posted by alangeering
1. Remember that the images were being used to back up a sermon/message/talk, so in this respect they were put into context.

2. Non-violence vs a baton. In the text (Ephesians 6) "and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. " and the pretext "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but... against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." The sermon clearly started with the context that the armor of God is for use in the spiritual (not physical struggle) and the only offensive weapon given is the word of God (the Bible or Jesus). Christianity does not sanction violence against flesh and blood (against anyone)

with regards to the overall impression you create in a viewer (i.e. churchgoer), how can you be sure that it is the text that will put the violent conotations of the images into perspective and not the other way around, i.e. the violent conotations of the images that will pervert the original nonviolent message? it has been shown that visual stimuli (i.e. imaged based stimuli) have a stronger influence (also called 'priming' in this context) on the overall impression of *something* than written or spoken word does. consider especially how children could interpret this (who will rely even more heavily on the visual information than adults).

edited to add: particularly that image of the baton imo says nothing but 'i will oppress you', 'i will punish you', it clearly serves to intimidate (which is oh so typical for christianity); i cannot see any sign of the image saying 'i will protect you'!

3. Protestors vs Rioters.
The armor worn was not anti-protestor gear, it was RIOT gear. There is a difference. People should have a right to protest, and the police are tasked with defending this right (and protecting peaceful protest). Riots on the other hand restrict the freedom of the general public (closing thier communities down, making them say indoors in fear, etc.) and should be controlled.
if we lived in a perfect world i would fully agree with you, as we do not i can only partially agree.
at least where i live, anti-protestor gear and anti-riot gear is one and the same. from my personal experience i can tell you that police in riot gear (armor, teargas, watertanks, rubber bullets, batons etc) at least as often as not are used to violently close down otherwise peaceful demonstrations or incite riots - simply because they do not fit the political agenda of certain 'higher ups'. particularly they are a characteristic 'tool' of the more reactionary parts of a society (just like peacful demonstrations or riots can be considered the typical tool of the more progressive or revolutionary parts of a society), and are often used in self interest, ...and the church imho is a prime example of a reactionary element of society.
why make the gaps larger when you could be building bridges?

4. Protestors as evil.
See above, it's not about protestors. You can make your own ideas about whether a rioter is good/evil. I never meant to make this judgement, I just took a contemporary suit of armour, as Paul did in his letter to the Ephesians.
so then i have to conclude that rioters are categorically evil? (that's imo not really better - see above - as with riots, as often as not, the police has to be expected to have been the original agressor). you are making an analogy and that is the conclusion it leads to whether with protesters or rioters. how many of your viewers do you think will make this subtle differentiation you have made between protesters and rioters upon seeing those images? what about people who don't want to make such a differentiation - aren't you confirming and enforcing them in their prejudices and hate? again, what about children?

5. Why this suit of armour?
Because it was available. Because it more closely resembles the roman armor in it's elements than any other we could find. Because it was fun - we tested the armour by throwing chairs and furniture at the police officer. (we couldn't even scratch it, and the baton can really hurt).
why then not show the armor without the uniform (if at all possible), or show it in a visual context that makes it clear that it is about the armor, not the uniform; about protection not oppression?

alangeering

14th August 2004, 05:52 PM

You make some very good points.

Actually, Paul, a Jew, and a Roman citizen, would not have been blind to the fact that the Romans, in Israel/Judea were seen as the oppressing power (the Roman Empire). The soldiers were there to impose Roman Rule.

Paul, seeing the sensetivities spends time explaining that the context is that of a spiritual battle, lest people get confused.

The same empire tensions are seen in the story of Jesus, where there is the expectation of a Messiah who would "free" the Jews from the roman oppression. Jesus' spiritual kingdom was a little bit of a let down to many zealots and freedom fighters.

Even in oppressive times the Christian biblical authors teach non-violent protest by the peaceful living out of "love thy neighbour as theyself".

I do agree that the images, when seen out of context can give the wrong ideas to people who suffer under oppression from people in similar suits of armour. We are blessed here in England to have very little police intervention in our protests (it's not like the pictures I've seen from Europe and Canada). So in my cuture and environment the use of these images is not such a problem.

Has anyone taken a look at http://www.osbd.co.uk yet? It would be good to hear what a few of you think of the sample clips.

Alan

holly

14th August 2004, 06:17 PM

Well, I'm glad Flucht said something about the over-sized jpegs. We wanted imagery, but I'm gonna have to buy one of those new Islamic- er, I mean Apple 30" monitors and stand across the room to read this thread.... 3ye, that has to be one of the best rants I've ever heard on adapting religion to a mundane system. Very funny.

Alan, I know why you didn't want to post these because you didn't want to get into the theosophy -- just a real discussion about practical use of religious imagery where it belongs: in the church. Before we get all "The oppressive Romans went Christian and continued to oppress Jews for the next 1700 years, etc" (oh the irony), let's remember this is a discussion on imagery and VJing -- not religion. Flucht set a good presidence by questioning the imagery of riotcops/Romans as inspirational.... The bible teaching "love, not war"? Ho ho ho. You must not have read the bible lately!

Don't be shocked. Look and learn.

alangeering

14th August 2004, 06:45 PM

I probably read the bible more often than you Holly, and I read it critically, recreationally and thoughtfully, as a student of theology, a person who enjoys a good story, and as a christian.

Agree though, I think the thread would be better directed as "christian imagery" and it's uses rather than Christianity itself.

I can see two very useful discussions:
1. The place and use of religious imagery outside of a place of worship or religion (i.e. using this imagery in clubs) and what issues arise.
2. How religious imagery is used within a worship context to enhance a religious service.

I think the debate in each would be beneficial to all VJs as they deal with visual stimulus and provovcation.

I'm going to be away from tomorrow morning for a week, so will do my best to catch up when back. I doubt there would be any urgent questions, but if anyone wanted to be in touch then my contact details are available at http://www.algee.co.uk

Thanks,
Alan

seex

14th August 2004, 09:21 PM

Alan thanks for that insight and i do agree that there are similarities in churche rituals and club rituals, by going deeper into the subject we culd be realy close to defining what we do as vj-s.

Imagery is where religion beets the new ritual of mass gatherings but in numbers there is more yung people going to raves than churches. Imagine Micelangelo was only doing visuals...

Ok times have changed since then but i think that The Sistine Chapel wuld not be much diferent if it was painted nowdays. Wich is very much what 3YE was explaining. But lucky us who have the coice to go where we desire to get the kicks, wich is how i periceve my work. Its a great honnor to have someone look at what i do and ill make dam shure i use that time well, and this is where i start to teach my code, preach my religion.

Ok i dont take myself so seriously all the time, but its an element i oftem miss in todays entertanment, too often i see that people get served what they expect and thats not realy ussing the medium to say something but rather to enchance it, this is where churche rituals can get realy similar to such events.

3YE

15th August 2004, 12:48 PM

I just wanred to address Fluchtpunkts comments about violence. I can see you've got good intentions, but you need to rethink your strategy mate. what has been said in this forum so far seems to be missing a key element.

The imagery is, as Alan said, for a sermon about the armour of God. This is fine by me. I believe we all need armour of some sort. If you read Marshall Mcluhan, you'll be aware of his idea that all human technology, starting with the very first loin cloth (or fig leaf for that matter) is a form of armour, albeit psychological. To cover your genitals is an enormous psychological advantage to survival that we've all forgotten about because it's so widespread. in fact it's almost gone full circle, with naked protesters being the hardest to deal with, because they are the most fragile (an approach that reflects much of the philosophies of Jesus and Ghandi). on the other hand, in Britain there are a well known group of protestors called the Wombles, who have no political agenda. as far as I know, but attend mass demonstrations covered in improvised foam padding with the intention of getting in between protestors and policemen, and protecting them from each other.

the key here is the difference between arms and armour, between defence and attack. If christians are being urged to put on spiritual armour, to defend thier beliefs from outside influences, that's fine. I do it myself in order that I not be swept up by the next cult or fad that comes along.

By the same token, I live in a part of Leeds where gun crime is slowly becoming more prevalent. Do I condone gun culture by buying a Bullet Proof Vest? no, I'm just excersizing the right to defend myself. sadly, bullets are cheaper than kevlar. if only it we're the other way round, but...

Militarization is probably a bad thing overall, but as life is complex, then we need answersthat move the situation forward, not perpetuate the tit for tat cycle of pain.

violence is a symptom, not a disease. If violence is occuring, then it's already too late, we've failed as human beings because the avenues of communication have been closed.

there is stuff that straddles the line, like batons, riot foam and other so called non-lethal weapons. again we westerners forget how lucky we are. our riots are broken up by water cannons. I clearly remember Mark Thomas screening a video smuggled out of indonesia where a riot was ended not by police with sticks, but by government militia with AK47's.

hundreds we're killed. Many more injured seriously. compare that with anti-capitalism riots and anarchists start to look like sulky teenagers in my mind.

I think some people are just looking for a fight because they automatically assume Religion=Bad,

I personally favour the idea of the one wo/man religion. I am my pastor, the world is my church. I don't need anyone to talk to god for me and I'm not going to tell anyone else how they should live thier life.

Fighting fire with fire burns the whole house down.

/sermon

and yeah man, those pictures are way too massive. but it happens a lot. can we alter the forums code base to resize images automatically? or have a gallery we can thumbnail / link to? there's a lot of good piccies on VJF and it would be nice to have them all in one place.

the Matta Transporta

fluchtpunkt

15th August 2004, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by 3YE
I just wanred to address Fluchtpunkts comments about violence. I can see you've got good intentions, but you need to rethink your strategy mate. what has been said in this forum so far seems to be missing a key element.
...you make a lot of interesting points in your post, most of which i fully agree with. but i can't really figure out what you find wrong with my strategy (...or was that directed at alan :confused: ). could you explain a bit more? thx.

the key here is the difference between arms and armour, between defence and attack.
glad you would say this. i guess that's the main thing that bothered me (as i mentioned in my first post), more than the uniform or the fact that a (anti riot) policeman was used as example: the baton is neither a form of armor nor a symbol of defence. it is a weapon and a symbol of oppression/ supremacy/ punishment (-> thus my association with the fasces). ...judging from alans subsequent post though, i guess he uses it as a symbol/analogy for the 'sword of the spirit', not the 'armor of god'. personally i would still say that the 'sword of the spirit' which is the 'word of god' is much better visualized by an image of e.g. the bible rather than an anti-riot-police baton - those two visualizations really give the text a completely different (almost opposite) spin and i think when visualizing a mass one should be very conscious of the spin you add as your audience will typically be in a quite susceptible state of mind (which i guess would be one major difference to 'vjing' in a club).

there is stuff that straddles the line, like batons, riot foam and other so called non-lethal weapons. again we westerners forget how lucky we are. our riots are broken up by water cannons. I clearly remember Mark Thomas screening a video smuggled out of indonesia where a riot was ended not by police with sticks, but by government militia with AK47's.
hundreds we're killed. Many more injured seriously. compare that with anti-capitalism riots and anarchists start to look like sulky teenagers in my mind.
no i am very aware that in this context we are currently rather lucky in europe. but believe me the 'powerful' people in switzerland are also very happy with the fact that they can move about in their country without needing bodyguards, that they can use public transport etc.! that would change very quickly if protesters would be shot at with ak47's.
and please, let's not confuse cause and effect here: the reason why the situation isn't escalated as badly here (or elsewhere) has got a lot to do with the fact that political or social or spiritual adversaries concede each other a certain minimal humanity and the right to be treated with a minimum of dignity (i.e. not be massacred by ak47's). that includes not branding the political or social 'other' as 'evil' - whether intentionally or not. if we stop being sensitive towards such things i can guarantee you we won't stay lucky for long (...happened at least twice in europe last century).

I think some people are just looking for a fight because they automatically assume Religion=Bad
well i really hope i did not leave that impression as it is irrelevant to what i was trying to say. my issues are really only with those specific images in that specific context because i believe them to convey 'the wrong' meaning, activate 'the wrong' associacions. that's got nothing to do with religion generally.

...personally i prefer to speak of spirituality rather than religion btw as that word focuses more on individual aspects rather than herd aspects. i for example do not want to belong to a certain religion, but my spirituality is very important to me.

3YE

15th August 2004, 06:12 PM

fair point, Fluchtpunkt,

I posted because i thought you we're taking Alan's message out of context, ie defining the images by your own connotations, without hearing the sermon that accompanies the images. one of my posts above uses quotes from aleister crowley, and taken out of context would infer that i was some kind of black magician which I'm not (...any more :lurker2: ), so on one level, i didn't really think your arguments we're valid for this thread.

However...

you do bring up the important wider point of subliminal imagery.

when i first viewed the pictures Alan posted, without reading the text, (out of context) I assumed the accompanying sermon was about Jesus as a freedom fighter against the forces of oppression, with all the appropriate connotations to the roman empire, the holy roman empire, faces (Faeces? there's a mister Freud on the phone sir...) the picture of the Baton particularly struck me as being like A Large Phallus thrust in our faces which kind of works in the context of a patriachal religion forcing it's message upon the innocent, and the general logo-phallo-centric outlook (ie: male oriented language set. i've deliberately avoided reffering to God as a He for just this reason. and yes Holly, you may add 'Logo-phallo-centrism' to your own personal spiritul armoury :-) )

on reflection, makes me wonder who's picking the images, and exactly what they are trying to say. posibly there's a degree of subversion going on. of course it's a classic brainwashing technique to send out mixed messages... hmm

I think christianity and the bible generally suffer from a degree of both wooly thinking and mixed messages, which is why a) i don't subscribe to it, and b) a lot of killing get's attributed to it (ie the crusades, pilgrims wiping out native americans, the branch davidians (Waco massacre), jonestown, the Jesus Army (isn't that an oxymoron?) etc etc...)

as a side note, the biblical notion of god that modern day christians worship owes it's roots to the hebrew god yahweh, who was originally a war diety thought to reside at the top of a mountain. hmmm. jews and christians worshipping a god of war. but of course, that's all in the past isn't it... /ironic footnote

I agree with you that there's probably better allusions that could be used for the 'sword of the spirit', and it's funny you mention the 'word of god', as the phrase that springs to my mind is of the pen (or forum post) being mightier than the sword

finally, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that the whole post was directed solely at you, it wasn't. i was using your comments more as a launching off point. and yes, in retrospect, i think a strategic re-think may be required all round.

the phrase 'I think some people are just looking for a fight because they automatically assume Religion=Bad' was a general comment based on other posts in this forum, and a general feeling of anti-religious feeling that pervades youth culture today (christ, i sound like a conservative MP :crazyeyes ) at the end of the day, some people simply aren't inclined to strike out on thier own when looking for the spiritual side of life. in that sense we're quite lucky we're strong enough to make up our own minds.

Matthew (a hebrew word meaning 'gift of god' apparently. take that anyway you like ;) )

I feel sorry for pastorsam really. the poor guy only came here looking for a mixer...:(

fluchtpunkt

15th August 2004, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by 3YE
I posted because i thought you we're taking Alan's message out of context, ie defining the images by your own connotations, without hearing the sermon that accompanies the images.
lol :D

and i thought i made it clear from the very beginning that i was bothered by the context of the images with the sermon and neither the sermon or images per se.

klumsy

15th August 2004, 11:37 PM

...i'm guessing you weren't aware that people (e.g. me ) could read such a context into those images though.
...
why not use more nonviolent (isn't christianity supposedly about nonviolence?) examples, such as a firefighter in protective gear, an astronaut, a construction worker, ...?

i think context if everything, people can and people do take anything out of anything else, no matter the intention, communication or even abundant explainations and disclaimers, but seriously do you really take it that way? if so, and if you are representative of the majority of the population, then the majority of t.v/movies/ art should be utterly censored so that people mightn't be able to take the images out of context (or for the matter of alot of movies/art, even IN CONTEXT).

why is a roman soldier used and military armour? well that was the context of the scripture, a visual parable as such, nothing about offesnive combat action, but totally about defense, and clearly focusing on the spiritual rather than physical violence.. dispite the world's history of sinful men bending and using the things of God for their own prideful and evil purposes (Religion) the early christian were renouned for their pacifism and refusing to fight, in the physical sense one of the reasons why the early christians were killed by the romans was their refusal to fight /be conscripted into the army, their message of peace threatened the whole force based way the roman empire existed.

anyway the scriptures that this image is IN context with.

ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

a point i think that your posts have brought up though is
that we (all people) have to be careful about the imagery we use, anad the message we convey, to try to communicate as cleary so that the 'least amount' possible of people will take the message wrong, especially when the issues are serious, and the consequences could be dire.

an example of this personally is the PoliticoReligo rhetoric of President Bush and company, which seeks to rally religion behind a dangerous patriotism.

http://www.christiancounterculture.com/articles/godandcountry.html

the example of the failure of 'the church' as a whole to do this is painfully and tragically written into our recent hitler - NAZI germany, where hitler talked about a 'new christianity' in which he successfully blinded the minds of so many relgious leaders whose religion had no substrance but tradition and happilly exchanged it for a blend of religious patriotism, ignoring the warning signs and the evil amoung them, such a hypocracy, all the nazi soldiers even had a belt buckle with the german for "God is with us" on it, if only the whole of the 'proclaiming christians' in germany stood up vocally in protest against Hitler and the nazi's, and like the early christians at the cost of their own lives, history may be so different. (i['m glad for some in nazi germany who did stick up, such as deitrick (spelling mistake maybe?) bonhoffer

But does the actions of fearful , ignorant, or evil men who claim the title of "christian" alter the power and message of Jesus Christ? . I THINK NOT.

3YE

16th August 2004, 12:41 AM

Sorry fluchtpunkt, it was a good launching off point for my sermon, but, ultimately, my bad :cheers:

Kommy:

I agree with your viewpoint on there being an intelligence bigger than us, beyond our feeble line of sight

I ain't going to repeat stuff i've already said, go back a few pages and re-read my previous posts, or to put it another way:

by God I believe you mean the creator of everything

'everything' is an inclusive term that includes, amongst other things, christianity.

yeah, god made christians, like god made x-boxes and dog poo and distant galaxies and everything else. if you really, really believe, you'll learn to love the christians :love3:. if this doesn't make sense then you need to expand your definition of Love.

my little brother used to wind me up. i used to want to kill him sometimes, especially when he's do things to wind me up. but i never stoppped loving him, and today we're good friends, solid, like brothers should be. I still don't agree with some of the stuff he does, but that dosen't mean i don't love him. same goes for...(insert whatever your personal bugbear is here)

oh and god created mass media too, which is a good example of a democracy of the mediochre.

for instance, say everybody in the world was asked to vote on thier favourite colour and to vote on thier most hated colour, and it was understood that whatever won, on average, would be the colour of our planets flag. I'm betting that flag would be a light brown/dark beige colour. why? because although nobody in their right mind likes beige, nobody hates it enough to vote against it.

and that's what the mass media is. we are not being held in ignorance, it's just there are so many different versions of 'the truth' we end up with a compromise which, while it doesn't really help anyone, doesn't really hinder anyone either. it's not bullshit, because there's not enough substance to it to even make a turd of any weight. todays media hero is tommorrows villain and vice versa and so-on...

if your gonna let it wind you up, you should consider putting on some kind of 'spiritual armour', because it's always going to be there. stop :banghead:. no-ones forcing you to watch. and thank your lucky stars you have the option of the internet, where you can find your own truth.

your homework for tonight is to go and watch all three matrix films again, paying particular attention to the concept of 'the system'. not everybody wants to wake up. if you do, you will, but you can't force others to wake up. you can't beat the system, but that doesn't mean you've lost, you've just got to be more inventive about how you deal with it.

3YE

16th August 2004, 01:49 AM

It's a sad thing to see a person who can no longer formulate coherent arguments by which to make themselves clear resort to rhetoric and catchphrases.

The first step to enlightenment is removing fear. the first step to removing fear is defining unknowns. so who are 'they'? you obviously believe 'they' have an agenda, but as you cannot name your demons Kommy, then forever will they plague you.

asterix

16th August 2004, 04:15 AM

So I haven't read all this shit.
But can I just add:

- Religions in General, including churches - have been a driving force in the world of trippy imagery/architecture since the dawn of man.

- I've wanted to take a hell load of projectors and plaster the local cathedral in freaky shit even since I watched the Cieba Records 'Visitation' DVD. If you haven't watched the church session in the extras section - please try to.

3YE

16th August 2004, 05:55 AM

Kommy,

Passivity is a weapon too. Jesus played the victim and defined the last 2000 years (which the hippies call the 'age of Pisces' or the Fish, a sign of passivity and emotionalism .ironic, because 'al nasrini' means 'little fish' in arabic. and as jesus was called the nasareen, even though we all know he was from bethlehem, we can only surmise that his outcast band of freedom fighters was called 'the little fishes by the locals of galilee. synchronicity or something else?), ghandi lay down on the floor in a big nappy and booted the armed british out of india.

the cold war was a perfect example of the failure of violence to reach a positive conclusion. to opposing forces merely fed off each other like parasites until they we're both too bled dry to maintain thier arsenals. For another example, get down to your nearest ghetto and see how guns are used by gangsters to keep their own people oppressed, saving the authorities all the tedious work of rounding them up and shooting them in an official capacity

I wasn't saying you've got to like christians. I wasn't saying you've got to agree with them (I don't) I was saying that as a feature of the universe, and as a group of people with good intentions, if nothing else, as human beings, you've got to love 'em. there is more to a person than their religion

part of what I've been typing about for the last few pages is about expanding your horizons, thinking outside of the box, realising there's more options than just win or lose, fight or die.

fuse the yin and yang into a synergy. see the colours, not just the black and white

RE: everything you've posted this evening...

only a fool would believe or disbelieve this, a person of reason would hold it as a possibility

sound familiar?

you could be right with what you say, but everything you've said so far is so vague, so paranoid, so totally obfuscated I honestly can't refute you any longer. but i couldn't say you're making any kind of sense either :confused:

odd, because you can make coherent arguments on other occaisions.

is the skunk in your neighbourhood as strong as the weed round here? that shit used to make me so paranoid, just wasn't thinking straight...

3YE

16th August 2004, 06:35 AM

you first.

you've got some 'lies' to explain to Klumsy first

or are you as full of it as I am rapidly beginning to suspect. come on stoner, stay focused.:Smoking:

don't worry about me, I'm not going anywhere for a bit, i'm just about to put a soundcard into my linux box

...minutes later

Shit, I build computers faster than you type.

3YE

16th August 2004, 07:19 AM

Heaven and Hell aren't in the hereafter, there is no life after death. there's the projections of peoples subconciou telling them they are beings from the afterlife, but the information comes from OTHER SOURCES. go check out the collective unconcious, read anything by C.G.Jung

Heaven and hell are here and now, and you make them what they are. hell is fun and painful and interesting and terriffying and sexy. heaven is safe, and secure and good and friendly but boring, tedious, i couldn't possibly put up with these other sychophants forever. believing in anything but the here and now is a delusion, a trap you make for yourself. 'i'll do it tommorrow' 'i could've been a better human being, i will be next time' 'what happened to all the groovy chicks' and all our failed dreams and lofty aspirations

now my CV, as you asked:

I loved strong psychaedelics.

if you want a roll call,

magic mushrooms, LSD, DMT, Mandrake, Salvia, harmaline, mdma, mdea (ecstasy's bigger, badder brother, lasts twelve hours, not six.) Mescaline, and I own my own peyote cactus, which is not as easy as you'd think in the UK. oh and if there is any kind of LSD Hierarchy, then i'm definitely a spaceman (over a hundred trips. and I know what 'saturation point' is.)

i smoked weed for ten years and grew it for business and pleasure on and off, but it took me a while to figure out that some things just aren't cool, whatever cypress hill say about it. I forgot it was a tool and took it for granted. I don't know how long you've been smoking, but if you get any of the following symptoms, it's probably time to give up:

occaisional poor skin/eczma like dryness

falling asleep at night and having wierd indoor flying dreams before you finally drop off. they're also the only dreams you have. if you quit for more than a day you'll have the freakiest fuckin nightmares i swear. real night sweats

going to a party and realising you haven't spoken to anyone except to bum baccy/skins/another toke of that doob

coughing up more than a gram of green shit a day

coughing up blood in your green shit

looking at cigs held by normal people and trying to figure out if they're smoking a spliff

watching daytime television

having coughs/chest infections that last more than a week

not giggling after your first hit- too used to it

all these things occured to me and in the end i had to admit that there was more to life than watching jerry springer at 3 in the afternoon while i had my breakfast

If your arm falls off and your shooting into your balls, it's probably
time to give up heroin. if, by the same token, you've become a counter-culture clich?that can't leave the house without a bifta, it's time to give up weed.

I'm not some anti-drug straight headed school counsellor. i can build a bong out of the first three things i pick up in the street. if i know anything, it's cause i've been there and done it.

I'm not typing this as a competition to see who's the most hardcore, i'm just trying to help,cause you sound like me not so long ago. that doesn't mean i want you to be like me now. it means i want you to stop being a cookie cutter and be what you really can be. looking for the truth, thinking you've got it and then watching your world view crumble, having to build it all up again, learn from your mistakes. If you know so much how come your not the master of the universe? I've skipped over some of your old posts so i know these seeds aren't falling on stony ground.

littlecatalyst

16th August 2004, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by klumsy
and who are "they"?
i have it from very high sources that "They" are actually the VanPatten family... some of you may remeber them from "eight is enough"

thath's who they are when they say "thats what they say" or when someoen is telling you about something they are doing.. it's the VanPattens. In fact when one is talking about "the Man" it is usually Dick VanPatten.

hope i've cleared that up for you

littlecatalyst

16th August 2004, 08:40 AM

a) people ar ea little more copmplex than computers (do you have any idea how many calculations your eye/brain have made since simply starting this sentence?? how many ocnes and rods firing per second?

what a piece of work is (hu)man....

i like what u say when u say theres no heaven and no hell but creations in the here/now... but wonder y with all your tripping and questioning u nevah went through the bardo? never broke on through to the other side? cause as misrepresented and as badly described as it is, there is a route our non-dimentional being takes after leaving the body, and while it is WAY More psychadelic than eating your whole cactus there, you create the content and the context is what you have to deal with... but its all about you so you're in control, except that you dont realize that, and in fact think it's totally the other way around... and alone, when ultimatley its about finding out who else is in you and how much of the Force is really at the heart of it..

sorry been away all weekend and missed the big sermons. dang!

3YE

16th August 2004, 08:42 AM

and i thought Dick Van Dyke was the man!!

http://www.deejay-stars.com/pic10.jpg

littlecatalyst

16th August 2004, 08:46 AM

some religiosn tell you how to be (esoteric)
some religions tell you to be like God (esoteric)
some religions tell you how to awake your Godness (eso/exoterix)

some religions tell you you're a sinner
some say you're just human
some say you're divine, just forgot it cause of the noise affecting the signal

and deep down as has been said here so many times, all religions deep down-- when you strip off the rust and generally pimp the ride to the real exoteric side, all ofthem are about waking u up to ur divinity... either as a bit player in the divine sea ar as the big G hisself as a holographic reality (no matter how many tiny pieces you cut of a holograph, the wh9ole picture-- teh BIG poicture- is always there in its entirety

3YE

16th August 2004, 09:06 AM

I know people are more complex than current computers. but the comparison still stands. after all aren't we just chemical computing systems built on a DNA OS and running a neural net kernel??

Timothy Leary's translation of the tibetan book of the dead?

read it,

did two getafix's and two Hoffman2000's sat atop Malham Cove smoking charas chillums(a three hundred foot high glacial cliff face in the yorkshire Dales. if you ever come to the UK i garauntee i'll take you there). been through all bardo's, up and down. navigated my way back to baseline reality because that's just the point Life is to be lived, tasted, smelled, touched, not wasted in some unchanging blissfull afterlife state, or frittered away tinkering with your internal programming. spirit separated from matter is not life, but death. we live inbetween the pleasure and the pain. chasing those states through drugs is a sure fire way to unhinge yourself. drugs open doors, and give you the keys. once you know where those access points are, they can be found again through meditation and dreaming, and not just as tourist visa's that last as long as it takes for your immune system to process the drug, but as naturalised residents, stay as long as you like... Yoga beats the shit out of LSD any day of the week.

I shit you not on the bardo's and i can prove it. Robert Anton Wilson wrote three 'cosmic trigger books'. one of them suggests that if you need advice just turn to the back of whatever book you takes your fancy and find the answers your looking for. my question was 'am i the only one who experienced what i experienced sat on that inland cliff top, full of LSD? was it real or just a product of alkaloids and brain chemistry' If you know which book I'm on about, and If you've been there, you'll know the final line is a description of the final Bardo, beyond which only the dead can pass. Wilson was telling me he knew what I was on about.

littlecatalyst

16th August 2004, 09:45 AM

the softmachine analogy only goes so far... it works when you look at it on a computer, but in r/l all alls are false. and this gift that we get in a bod (that can make what? 100Mx200M calculations every .01 second) goes way beyond these anaolgies, no one has yet been able to scientifically explain where the mind is, where consciousness sits, in fact i would say more than a computer the body is a divine practical joke wrapped around a paradox.

and yeha the Metzner/Leary version is kewl, as is watching a tibetan monk read/sink the book to a fresh corpse (kinda the old school version i guess).

but even in their version, you still have to get to The Stage. after being in the bodyless bliss stage, and then in the oh-shit-how-do-i-deal-with-this and holy-fuck-i-don't-have-a-body-so-why-am-i-even-thinking freakout stage, the last one is coming to understand and feel-the-love of/for your Self. it's all about you baby. you created this. you destroyed this. you sustain this.

matter w/no spirit is dead flesh. spirit with no matter is?? is it even possible? spirit lives multidimentionally, and impersonal spirit live "omnipresent" in non-dimentional reality/ but we, we see 3-d 2-d and sometimes with those fancy cameras even a little 4-d but thats it. how do you know spirit with no matter?

i like your life is to be lived concept. smell touch tasted sure. totaly. in fact not doing that in the name of aesthetisicm prolly gets u a divine ass whuppin' when you "enter the pearly gates" (which we suspect are not gates, nor pearly)

i like where u are headed 3rdi and agree that watching you breath will get you there if not fater, on surer footing and prolly along the way (that way, as opposed to the elecytric ladyland way) you may even have to time to meet thr right guides so that you can traipse that "thin line beyond" in/out back/forth when/however you like.... but one think about the yoga beating lsd.... if u are into lsd still=> gotta go for a yoga + lsd now thats fun! ) as is yoga+ lsd+ Scriabin

3rd eyethe final Bardo, beyond which only the dead can pass. Wilson was telling me he knew what I was on about. um, we ought to have some 1 on 1, cause i too have seen stuff but not things that i would ever write down (you talk LSD, try making then shooting a PranaChi-ball into your sleeping kundalini..... you wanna fly? leave your bod?) anyway i have seen some places that would be fun to relive... retell... i remeber them every day but they just become a part of the greater cosmology/personal-theosphy....

and that stuff just wouldnt go on a screen ya dig? sos we're prolly a little offtopic for even here....

klumsy

16th August 2004, 10:42 AM

kommi, why did you suddenly delete your many posts ( consequencely making my conversation a monolog talking to myself :)

scared the illuminati might be reading it or something?

3YE

16th August 2004, 11:19 AM

erm, the soft machine analogy is actually better than you think, and even supports your paradox/joke/pass-the-metaphysical-parcel hypothesis.

I have a friend who did a cybernetics degree at the university of essex. his second year project was to write a neural net program. the point of the project was not to make second years code outdated software (which is what simple neural nets are compared to some of the stuff going on in computer labs around the world) but to illustrate that because of the complexity involved, no-one knows how neural nets work and having coded it and run it and watch it do it's learning thing, having been able to explain every individual loop and routine, every flag and array, he could not understand how it worked 9do you think god created maths that way? so that as soon as it get's sufficiently complex we cease to understand? and have to just use the 'I don't care how it works, i just know it gets me what i want' method

now if you took LSD, we stopped your heart while you we're out there, and then waited for you to return, I'd think you'd find the way back cut off, and to us you'd effectively be dead. and there's the important word, effectively, because, as mentioned by I-Robot, and Ramsay Dukes, if you can't tell, don't try and believe it isn't so.

if we can't tell your not dead, because your corpse has remained still and started to rot, your as dead as the hookers in my basement :lurker: . and if your talking to another person on the internet, in the absence of sufficient first person data, and assuming the machine is fast enough with a big enough database, and you can't tell it's not a human being, then it effectively IS a living entity

or to put it another way, we see spirit in everything, in trees as dryads, in peyote as Mescalito, in our cars on cold and frosty mornings when we say 'come on girl, you can do it, tick over for me' in our stuffed toys as children and in more abstract entities like clippy the M$ word help assistant robot/daemon of annoyingness. is that projection, a psychological gestalt, or fetishism (african spirit worship you pervs, not :whip: ) seeing the energy of the entities, and communicating with them?

if there isn't a functional difference, then it makes no sense to pretend there is a difference, just because you've compartmentalised them in your mind.

another friend told me of the native american technological spirits, for instance the spirit of Jumbo Jets, that has a smile like a row of cockpit windows, and loves being full of people, and showing off how high and fast it can go. if you don't believe me try and reach it by meditation on your next long haul flight. Alan Moore of 'Watchman' fame revealed in an interview for 'towards 2012' that he'd been in touch with a demon that liked maths and showing off, and so presented itself as a complex, escher like pattern that switched between a dance of lizards and a mass of cobwebs, and it seemed to be saying 'hey, look, i can do re-iterations! and I can render lizard scales using the same calculation that i use to make spiderwebs. imagine Premiere or Vegas Video with a presonality? it's only a function of complexity, surely your journeys beyond the viel will have shown you that perception merely puddles at the knotty bits and is spread thin in the simple bits, but is still there if you can mentally 'squint' in the right way?

we can only percieve the universe as an allegory of what's really going on. even 'hard facts' like E=MC2 are just tools for interpreting the data that are of very little use when used outside of thier context. what you see before you is a result of a chemical reaction in your retina travelling up your optic nerve andinto your brain. you brain makes an allegory of that information and presents it to conciousness for assesment, so in that sense, one well prepared metaphor is just as good as another really

and as for the 'holy-fuck-i-don't-have-a-body-so-why-am-i-even-thinking freakout stage' well, by luck or by flaw, as a fourteen year old kid i tried to imagine one morning what it would be like to not be and for there to be nothing. in a childishly curious attempt to explore my universe I had accidentally hit upon one of the most powerful and effective meditations in any spiritual repertoire. i'm not claiming to be any kind of super being for this, it was an accident just like 'what happens if i put lego men into the fire?' or any of the other questions that strike us as we grow up. fear is an emotion, a chemical process, if your feeling fear or shock, your still plugged in to the matrix.by definition you can't have feelings without a body, which is why i believe drugs to be false states, holographic representations of the real thing, as real as a star trek holo-deck simulation, with all the inherent limitations (run-time, depth of resolution, database complexity etc)

and it was Yoga on LSD that released my Kundalini and precipitated my shamanic death/rebirth trip, but rebuilding yourself gets boring after a while too, and there's only so many life crises you can put yourself through before you say 'enough, i am happy with who I am, it doesn't matter how I arrange the parts', it still needs doing occasionally, just like a garden needs the lawn mown in the spring, but it's a chore to do it week in week out

I highly recommend Lucid dreaming for flying though. nothing beats it, especially over water, and it can last ages, but only costs you an hour and a half of real time, and you wake up feeling tremendous, way better than most drugs and superior, but comparable to DMT for being an experience you feel better afterwards than you did before!

We've been off-topic since about page two I reckon. and I wouldn't normally talk about this kind of thing, but I reckon it's about time I shared with the world. sorry if it seems like I've turned it into my own private chat room, wasn't the intention, just happen to have been up all night fiddling with computers, so my limbic brain thinks it should be asleep and dreaming, and as a result my neo-cortex is going a little spacey.

Look forward to meeting you one day LittleCatalyst

the Matta Transporta

turkish

16th August 2004, 12:24 PM

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Fuck me - whatever happened to "One man on a hillside"

fluchtpunkt

16th August 2004, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by klumsy i think context if everything, people can and people do take anything out of anything else, no matter the intention, communication or even abundant explainations and disclaimers, but seriously do you really take it that way? if so, and if you are representative of the majority of the population, then the majority of t.v/movies/ art should be utterly censored so that people mightn't be able to take the images out of context (or for the matter of alot of movies/art, even IN CONTEXT).
yes, i DO take it that way.
a sermon is not a piece of art, a movie, a commercial or broadcast television because all of the latter do not claim to be divine prophecy nor do they claim to be 'the absolute truth', which the former does! nowhere am i talking of censorship, i am merely questioning. i could just as well ask you back: do you really NOT take it that way? historically, spiritually and culturally can you not see that in the context of religion, as a preacher (and that is what you partially are when visualizing a mass, for you too are defining its meaning), you bear a particularly big responsibility with and should be mindful of what you say, because what you say can have a tremendous impact on how people see and judge the world. are you not aware of the inquisition (witch hunts), the crusades, civil wars, the genocide on and destruction of entire cultures in the 'colonies', (...i could go on forever) and how they were justified?

perhaps you do not associate similar meanings with riot cops as i do because you have never been in or got caught in a demonstration where they turn against you. i do not want to demonize (riot) cops generally, for that would not do them justice. however having been in such situations (...i have e.g. been in a demo where fascist skinheads were throwing paving stones onto the demonstrators from behind a cordon of riot cops which did not intervene, but had the demonstrators encircled so they couldn't run away/for cover either...) will never let you see those uniforms the same way again - for then you know that the 'monopoly of violence' in the hands of the state may be used to protect you, but there is no guarantee that it won't be used against you. (and i live in switzerland, certainly one of the more peaceful and 'free' places on this planet). ...but that doesn't even matter with the point i'm arguing as i was upset by the aggressiveness of the closeup of the baton rather than the uniform per se.

the example of the failure of 'the church' as a whole to do this is painfully and tragically written into our recent hitler - NAZI germany, where hitler talked about a 'new christianity' in which he successfully blinded the minds of so many relgious leaders whose religion had no substrance but tradition and happilly exchanged it for a blend of religious patriotism, ignoring the warning signs and the evil amoung them, such a hypocracy, all the nazi soldiers even had a belt buckle with the german for "God is with us" on it, if only the whole of the 'proclaiming christians' in germany stood up vocally in protest against Hitler and the nazi's, and like the early christians at the cost of their own lives, history may be so different. (i['m glad for some in nazi germany who did stick up, such as deitrick (spelling mistake maybe?) bonhoffer

yes. but you're only telling half the story: there was actually a lot of opposition to the nazis in germany - some of them christians. after all that's who the concentration camps were built for, the opposition! saying that hitler blinded the minds of religious leaders is imo a bit misleading, for they - at least the heads of the catholic church - knew very well what was going on; in fact the ruthless persecution of jews and communists by the nazis was one of the major reasons why they supported them in the first place. the roots of anti semitism in europe lie without any doubt in christianity. it wasn't hitler who blinded the christians into anti semitism, it was hitler who exploited christian anti semitism by scapegoating jews!
again: thus my sensitivities.

But does the actions of fearful , ignorant, or evil men who claim the title of "christian" alter the power and message of Jesus Christ? . I THINK NOT.
perhaps not. but i do think it's worth reflecting on what exactly with his message it could be that keeps inspiring people (for almost 2000 years now) to 'misinterpret' it, ...and how that could perhaps be avoided in the future.

...thx for the link btw
----

In fact when one is talking about "the Man" it is usually Dick VanPatten.

...and i thought... you're the man! you're the woman!

holly

16th August 2004, 02:19 PM

3Ye, I think kommy pulled a classic bait-and-yank on you. I didn't see his posts (gone before I checked in this morn) but he has, indeed, made you look like a bit of a fanatic/lunatic. I strongly suggest everyone wait ONE FULL HOUR before reposting in any thread (especially *hot* threads) to avoid looking like a fool. Unfortunately, some of your posts seem interesting (most seems like esoteric '60s babble) but I'm skimming and not reading because as you say, one-sided psycho-rant is always a negative.... It's important that these threads remain at least a 3-way conversation. If you are having a personal battle with only ONE other person, take it to PMs. You've hi-jacked the thread!

TURKISH, ironic, eh? I personally approached Edirol and was told in no uncertain terms that Edirol did not sponsor artists. They offered to take the publicity off a major tour I was on, tho. Har har har. Thanks, but no thanks. You help me, I'll help you. The woman I spoke with also dissed the artist I was touring with without knowing the first thing about her ("My children are NOT allowed to watch TV!" was the exact quote. oh-kay, psycho-christian home schoolin' lady.) All things that don't have the "Churchin' Seal of Approval" are inherently evil..... I love some of my Edirol contacts, but there's definitely some self-rightiousness goin' on over there.

and yes Holly, you may add 'Logo-phallo-centrism' to your own personal spiritul armoury :-)
Ha ha ha. I've always said that men worship an imaginary giant rotating penis in the center of the universe! All penis's are small and delicate. It's the man's ego (what's that neurological term where you can morph your self-image to encompass your car while driving, or include the machinery you are operating...?) that shrinks-to-fit his penis and thus distorting the whole scale of his unifarce. I was on a rooftop party a few years back and this Brittish guy started laughing and said how "phallic" New York City is with all the tall buildings.... I was like, "Dood! I've seen a few penises in my time, and none of them were 40 stories high, none of them were as hard as brick and steel, and none of them had a base that filled a city block! The comparison of these buildings to your penis is ridiculous." The penis-worship thing is so essentially male, and so essentially disporportianate. I have no use for a "logo-phallus" in my spiritual armor since I have the power-of-the-pussy! Penisi poke and prod for a few minutes then lose it..., ehh, what is that next to the ultimate power to devour and smother? The penis bends to fit the pussy, not the other way 'round. Bwa-ha-ha-ha! You are all slaves! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!

Alan, I was disenchanted with reading the bible around the part of Moses's laws where it talks about slavery, and it being ok to rape a girl who isn't married or otherwise owned by a man. Also the uncleanliness of a man sitting on a cushion that a woman sat on while menstruating... (in otherwords: cooties). 3ye seems to be willing to morph religion to suit his internal sense of spirituality, but I come from a religious experience where the Word-of-God is taken quite literally. If God made the world in 6 days that means exactly 144 hours.... You can bet I would happily sit all over every cushion, chair, seat, and government office once a month if it would cause the collapse of Western Judeo-Christian civilization while all men had to sleep outside until God (and time) can clense them of my unclean-unholy crotch! Don't brag about reading the bible to me, I've read plenty and it's not a subject you want to debate with me in public. Slavery is bullshit. Plenty of the bible is bullshit written by frightened ignorant little men who declared "ungodly" anything they couldn't control -- like women. This from a race of men who worshiped a volcano! The only saving grace is that Jesus actually seems to have had some respect for women, and there are rumors of the female apostle -- but seeing as how that was edited out of the bible at a later date by more scared little men, you're not winning any arguements by shaking a bible at me. I'll happily sit on that too.
;)

3YE

16th August 2004, 02:31 PM

I am STILL awake, no drugs, no shit. man, i joined this thread over twenty four hours ago. at least i am now the proud owner of a near mint MX10 with titler box and manual, thanks to the miracle of eBay, but now i must sleep. i hope this will excuse my short tempered ranting.

Fluchtpunkt, you've made your point, and the sad thing is you've barely acknowledged that if the predominant religion was a belief in a giant space gorilla, us all living in a gorilla bogey and dreading the coming of the great white hankerchief, rich, powerful men would still exploit this as a means to feed thier addiction to wealth and power. the same shit's going down in the arab nations over oil, in far eastern nations over technology and in the west over both. it's not about religion, it's about co-ercion and complicity, and a few new age christians with a disturbingly phallic police baton picture is hardly going to hasten the impending apocalypse.

All the massacres you've mentioned we're about power, not god. religion is just a vessel for spiritual information. just like an email server doesn't have to read the mails to pass 'em on, people in religious organisations don't have to 'get it' to carry the book around.

I've had it with this thread. the smell ov over flogged horse is putting me off. i've tried to widen the horizon, but it just keeps narrowing down again. I've shared my spiritual death and rebirth with you guys, been to the ends of the universe, and through the last two thousand years over and over and over. resolve your issues, move on. don't chase em round in circles. consider any further posts by me as an example of spiritual weakness.

thanks Holly, but I stand by everything I said because it's who I am/was and where I came from/ am now. i didn't rant until the end (I am VEERRRYY tired now). I probably was baited, but I just used Kommy's comments as a starting point to put up some ideas, and I was careful to keep my points to an internally cohesive level, ie they hold thier own context, if you read it right. I tried to respect Kommy, and hoped he'd take this space for what it is, a place to air opinions and exchange ideas. it was a bit one-sided, but I wasn't ranting, I was trying to be positive. please go back and re-read carefully. ironic, because most of this thread's been about context. if i've learnt anything, it's who can be taken seriously and who can't. also i've learnt about the power of editing and as a result I've a) had enormous fun, and b) had a chance to express some ideas that are normally bottled up and not given the chance to air where they'll be apprecciated

and I meant you can have the phrase "logo-Phallo-centrism" for your use, not the idea itself, (it would be an imposition to force any kind of phallo-centrism on you :P) I picked the phrase up from a lady I knew who did her dissertation on feminism and linguistics.

i'm off to smoke crack and stuff gerbils up a crack hoe's ass, because Everyday should be different to the last :P

fluchtpunkt

16th August 2004, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by 3YE and the sad thing is you've barely acknowledged that if the predominant religion was a belief in a giant space gorilla, us all living in a gorilla bogey and dreading the coming of the great white hankerchief, rich, powerful men would still exploit this as a means to feed thier addiction to wealth and power.
fair point. and yeah i guess i was starting to slide into ranting against *whatever*. as far as being too obsessive with arguing my point: imo it's hard to tell how much it takes to get a point across communicating through an internet forum - after all it took you merely one post less than my last to understand what i was trying to say. ;)

kommy

16th August 2004, 09:40 PM

heres a nice movie that illustrates an analogy
(christianity-the donkey the guy-you)
http://www.daresay.com/unruly/daresay/sausage.mpg

seex

17th August 2004, 12:44 PM

Ok, its only a forum and we can change religion in general from here, so no one shuld be offended if their point is not understood (after all it did start with someone looking for a videomixer).

But be it so, it is still a few people who participate in religious ceremonys and it is they that have some influence on how the whole event is going to effect the viewer, and it is their work that im realy interested in, or is there a possibility for people like 3YE to vj at such events (if he interested) id realy like to see how you wuld ilistrate the whole "bogey and dreading coming of the great white hankerchief" theory in a religious ceremony or celebration, if yopu do it with half the passion that inspired youre posts here it wuld shure be interesting to see. It something that culd actualy make me go to such a ceremony, but unfortunatly we are a long way form that in these part of the world.

And a nother thing that is still worh debating, is the passion of vj-s working in a club or a similar setting. We all have the possibility to change the outcome just like a vj at a religius ceremony, but is there anything worth changing, are we completley happy with the ideology of massive events as long as there not religious or polytical.

I was vjing at a massive event in june this year, the promotor was seling ordinary botteled watter for a normal price of bear, bear was expensive too. But at such an event the amount of extasy consumed is abnormal, so the price of watter shuld be also (there was no tapwater, it was outdoor). So in a few days we are working for the same crew again, we shure will work on that aspect, ill make a ad tipe of swf flashing the picture of the bootle and the price, only this much!!!, and than go on to an image of sahara, and some dryed out ruandian refugees, it shuld get people tinking.

Lets take the religious passion and devotion to clubs and events!!!

fluchtpunkt

17th August 2004, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by seex
I was vjing at a massive event in june this year, the promotor was seling ordinary botteled watter for a normal price of bear, bear was expensive too. But at such an event the amount of extasy consumed is abnormal, so the price of watter shuld be also (there was no tapwater, it was outdoor).
(sorry to derail)
that's really sad. promoters used to use that tactic here, too. they would even turn off the water of the faucets in the restrooms. only after several deaths of extasy consumers by dehydration were they obliged by law to provide free access to drinking water.

seex

17th August 2004, 06:35 PM

Thats the way to do it,

With a friend of ine were striving for this change, and after he published an article in a national magazine (with photos) explainig that, you culd not go out of the venue and come bac in again, unless you were a performer. He noted that the only eatable thing sold was cigaretes and that the price of watter was over the top. They brot in a drug educational group who offered cheap chocolate and fruits and isotonic drinks, but they were shut down at 1 in the mornig and than the same story again.

Ok. so where das religion come into this debate... I conect very much the massive aproach the globality of religion and fenomenas as the beatles or the raves or anti globalist demonstrations, its prety much the same key. People like to gather with comon minders and show how strong is their belief, give each other comfort by being there and stating "we think the same", this is always a dangerus thing. Be it partys or churches there is always more than one can understand or know.

So for that matter a churche massive is taking much better care of their visitiors than your avarege rave party, i mean when the Pope was here people got a whole packet of your firs aid kit with a rain coat and a sortof chair and a sun screen, and watter the basics.

So if its only ideology and a set of rules that the churche is asking of me i think its a small price to pay for da kicks, i maean at a rave you culd pay with youre life!

alangeering

23rd August 2004, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by holly
Alan, I was disenchanted with reading the bible around the part of Moses's laws where it talks about slavery, and it being ok to rape a girl who isn't married or otherwise owned by a man. Also the uncleanliness of a man sitting on a cushion that a woman sat on while menstruating... (in otherwords: cooties). 3ye seems to be willing to morph religion to suit his internal sense of spirituality, but I come from a religious experience where the Word-of-God is taken quite literally. If God made the world in 6 days that means exactly 144 hours.... You can bet I would happily sit all over every cushion, chair, seat, and government office once a month if it would cause the collapse of Western Judeo-Christian civilization while all men had to sleep outside until God (and time) can clense them of my unclean-unholy crotch! Don't brag about reading the bible to me, I've read plenty and it's not a subject you want to debate with me in public. Slavery is bullshit. Plenty of the bible is bullshit written by frightened ignorant little men who declared "ungodly" anything they couldn't control -- like women. This from a race of men who worshiped a volcano! The only saving grace is that Jesus actually seems to have had some respect for women, and there are rumors of the female apostle -- but seeing as how that was edited out of the bible at a later date by more scared little men, you're not winning any arguements by shaking a bible at me. I'll happily sit on that too.
;)

Holly:
"Don't brag about reading the bible to me..." - I was just responding to "You must not have read the bible lately!" from an earlier post.

"you're not winning any arguements by shaking a bible at me"
I hope I'm not arguing with you and as for shaking bibles, they're quite heavy and my arms would get tired. I'll mail you one if you like, after 5 minutes your arm will be sore.

"it's not a subject you want to debate with me in public"
As youi said 1 to 1 debate should be PM based, so I won't, but I'm happy to take questions.

Re: Your crotch
(never thought I'd use that as a title!)
This was written in a time when sanitation was non existant and all bodily emissions, instead of being flushed, absorbed, binned, whatever. were just emmisions on whatever was around. These rules existed so that the people could live lives with lower desease transmission rates. As we now have all manner of disinfectants we could easily deal with one of your croth rampages. ;)

Holly et al:
I'm back! It seems like in a week you've had some lively debate on anything and everything. I'm hungry and tired but thought I might say "hi" before I head for tea and bed. I'm shattered from a hard week but happy.

See ya all around.

3YE

24th August 2004, 01:51 AM

3ye seems to be willing to morph religion to suit his internal sense of spirituality

thank you :D
you said i had a sense of spirituality
Nicing thing anyone's said to me all week

it's a bit like sex really isn't it? most do it, some don't, everybody talks about it but few admit to doing it. some suffer for it and some sell it on street corners. some use it as a weapon. some people use it to find happiness. some do it on thier own, some people like to get together in big groups to do it. and sometimes, you've got to ask 'where's the love gone?'

and god's name gets shouted out a lot too.

holly

24th August 2004, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by alangeering
Holly:
I was just responding to "You must not have read the bible lately!" from an earlier post.
That wasn't aimed at you, that was for whoever said (Fluchtpunk?) that the bible was supposed to be about love and not war. There's lotsa wars, especially in the early parts and at the end.

The "health code" excuse is a little flimsy. Slavery had what exactly to do with health...? I've heard this theory quite a few times and it always strikes me as odd that so many other races survived without the benefit of Moses's laws and those kinky healthcodes. If you can, take a look at Moses's laws from a modern woman's perspective. It's a little hard to have faith in something so offensive.

I guess people are comfortable picking and choosing from what they like and sort of sweeping the rest under the rug as "nostalgia". Maybe it was my rigid upbringing but in for a penny in for a pound, as they say. If you (not you specificly, but anybody) are disreguarding enourmous passages that are only relevant to an earlier era, and then saying at the same time there is timeless wisdom and knowledge.... Well, I guess you are finding something that speaks to you, or perhaps just picking up any old burning torch and using it as an emotional rallying prop. Since I see very little in these old scriptures that pertains to my life today, it's hard to adopt the imagery and metaphores as anything meaningful. If you can disreguard at random, why not just disreguard the whole thing and start over? Ehh, I had a great grandmother who everyone said was a witch because she wouldn't go christian. Everyone was scared of her even tho she never did anything. It was cool, I guess I related more to her than mr yelling preacherman.

I was surprised/impressed/interested to see the mix of modern day vs olde rome footage in Alan's samples.... Although I now recall many sunday school booklets with robed people and sandles and such (all of them, come to think of it). Clearly the ties to biblical times is profound. It has a sort of Dungeons and Dragons-y aspect to it, or like the civil war re-enactors who dress in the old uniforms.... I vaguely recall my churchin being attached to an pastiche of costumes from 30AD, but with people who speak as if it were 1700.... Hmmmm. Are there other aspects of Then-as-Now? Is that a common theme in the visuals? Finding parallels?

alangeering

25th August 2004, 01:35 PM

"Are there other aspects of Then-as-Now? Is that a common theme in the visuals? Finding parallels?"

When it comes to use of visuals in religeous services I think you will find a lot of this.

Jesus used contemporary scenes in which to base his parables. He spoke about things the people could relate to.

In 21st Century Britian, especially in a city people aren't going to know about 1st Century farming techniques, or political situations, so consequently, for the population to understand the story you must either:

a) explain 1st century farming techniques

or

b) re-cast the story in a contemporary setting

There are few perfect analogies so it's good practice to go down route a) as well as route b), but the contemporisation of a story can be useful to convey it's meaning.

Alan

re: sanitation and slavery
I never used sanitation as an arguement for slavery, and I don't intend to. It's still something I'm studying. I understand what you're saying about taking and leaving bits, and I agree that it doesn't seem like a sound approach.
On sanitation: as we don't have medical data from that period regarding the relative healths of the israelite population vs other local tribes it's difficult to give a quantified answer to whethere the israelites enjoyed better health due to their rules. On the other hand the rules, given the sanitary situation and medical knowledge of the time are (as would be agreed by current medical experts) totally logical and ahead of other races of the time.

littlecatalyst

25th August 2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by alangeering
"Are there other aspects of Then-as-Now? Is that a common theme in the visuals?.../...Jesus used contemporary scenes in which to base his parables. He spoke about things the people could relate to.../..In 21st Century Britian.../...b) re-cast the story in a contemporary setting

alang that is totally cool. i like. i even dig the probable intereting placement of riots in the visuals... wayto go! thats awesome, using this media to get some story across.. (regardless of any spiritual issus-- just on the visual side alone this is really cool!!!)

Originally posted by alangeering
re: sanitation and slavery..../..... I understand what you're saying about taking and leaving bits..../......we don't have medical data from that period.../.. regarding the relative healths of the israelite population vs other local tribes.../.. a quantified answer to whethere the israelites enjoyed better health due to their rules. On the other hand the rules, given the sanitary situation and medical knowledge of the time are (as would be agreed by current medical experts) totally logical and ahead of other races of the time.

but when youre talking about "taking and leaving bits" and Holly remind us that they did all that wired "unclean" stuff... but really Holly, when talking about the old testament? and people's private parts, fine you are just unclean, but at least they left yoru bits and pieces and didn't chop off yoru willie! :alien: just what every baby needs.... cutting of every nerve ending in their dick, like that doesn't mess u up a bit-- i don't know about all the logic and conemporary medical ideology all of that shit's just a little too OCD for me

and on the slavery tip; there too its a bit fukt no? the peeps who's whole religio belief system is all up in their own flight from egypt and out of teh bonds of slavery then go on to have laws and regulations for slave owners... (including gems like you can only have a slave for 7 years-- after that you have to free him (yes him, the handmaidens didn't count). but if the slave loved his master and wants to stay he has to get his ears pierced (!). this kinda bigs me a lot-- in fact theres a lot of info about the slave owners in brazil (who devoutly practiced their flight from the bonds while on suga plantations with 10,000 slaves each) as well as all the peeps involved in the whole trade who really by the guidance of their Holy Books, were justified in this human holocaust...

yeah pickn and clipping the nice parts of the books is what peeps do, some for the reighteous stuff, and other for the sick and twisto theocracies

meanwhile... i dig the contemporary visu in yr mix :yep: