The problem with doing shows for free

[CodyWan]

A lot of times in may seem like a good idea to offer a club or party promoter your services for free to 'get your foot in the door' but I learned quickly that this is a bad idea.

First off, they won't take you seriously. They work in an industry where nothing is free and if it is then there must be something wrong with it. If someone offers me a free stereo I assume it doesn't work. They will think that you're an amateur and probably worry that you'll make the event look bad. Strangely enough, I've found that the more you charge the more seriously they take you and greater the chance that you'll get hired. They'll look at the price and say, "that's a lot. This guy/girl must really know what he/she's doing to be charging that much." and then they'll see the possiblilty of added production value to their event/club. The thing is, if you do charge a lot then you had better deliver.

The second reason for asking a lot when it comes to promoters and nightclubs is that they are going to try and talk you down, it's their job to. Even if you're asking very little. The best approach is to aim higher than the amount that you'd like. Example: if you'd like $500, ask for $600. A good rule of thumb, I've found, is to take your actual expenses (rental, transport, etc) and double it. And remember, once you've quoted a price to a promoter or club that is the amount they will expect to pay you from then on. Once you've set a price for your services it's really hard to raise that price.

I know that to be competitive it may appear that lowering your price looks like a good idea but promoters look for quality production value and in all other facets of production the best stuff costs the most. All the visualists that I know that don't charge much (or anything at all) are not doing so well and can't afford to get the equipment that they need. If you can't afford to build up your equipment base than your shows and your visuals will suffer, and, more importantly, they will not grow.

[bigloose]

Several times we gave a "promotional" price but on the invoice we were still writting the regular price and adding a % discount. like that people knew how much they would have to pay next time and they where not saying it's too expensive coz they new they already had a good price...

[slike]

Its a big problem with promoters and night club owners.
I think VJing is only accepted as some kind of art and not as an essential part of partys.
They think that we only play some video and nothing more ...
But thats the point: A DJ is buying records and some Players/Mixer
for home use. He is working with ready made material.
And there is the difference between DJs and VJs.
In my oppinion a VJ is not only a performer! We are working with "home made" clips and custom made Films (sometimes especially for one event). Its a full time job and thats not all.
We have to perform an average time of 8 hours and more.
...
back to the thread:
At this wednesday and friday we (eyesnears HH) were asked to perform at Phonodrome, Hamburg (Germany). The DJ acts are following:
Wednesday - Claude Young + Live Act: Gabriel Le Mar
Friday - Carl Cox

Thats really "big" DJs and they are paid pretty well.
The Organizing-Team is paying Flight, Hotel, and a big amount for Performing (something between 5000-10000 EUR)...
And we (as VJs) will get nothing more than 150 EUR per Person.
For Wednesday they are paying only for one person and for Friday they are paying for two.
The main point for them is the rental fee for the Projectors and Screens. Because of rental they have costs for VJing about 1000 EUR...
Its a problem because Club owners does not have equipment for VJing.
And there we are again - at this time VJs are not essential for partys and they dont bring money.

I hope to raise the Scene and get the Aknowledgement from Organisators to demand more money.

However, we thought about it and next time we have to get more money or we dont perform !
I agree with CodyWan that we have to make us rare and declare us (VJs) as something special connected with really hard work.

We stimulate peoples mind and its new for the crowd so we have to do the job as well as we can to get a positive feedback and the Aknowledgement of Club owners and Organisators.

Bring up VJ-Culture to the Clubs !

thx

Flo
EyesnEars

[eXhale]

Originally posted by slike
The main point for them is the rental fee for the Projectors and Screens. Because of rental they have costs for VJing about 1000 EUR...
Its a problem because Club owners does not have equipment for VJing.
that's true... i bet that if clubs had to hire a sound system everytime a DJ came, DJs would be paid much less. projector rental ends up costing a lot for clubs but i think this issue will be solved in the future as more and more clubs start to own their projectors. the newest club here opened with 4-5 projectors and they are going to add 2 more soon. it means not only that setup is much easier but also promoters are asking for VJs (they want to use their projectors!) and are able to pay better.

[XeroDark]

I agree that vj's should be just as important at the Dj. We should get paid just as much or more if we are bringing equipment or renting it. We should be put on the flyers with the Djs. Like this club i am doing now its like a rave they have once a month I get paid just as much as the Djs I am on all the flyers right with the Djs and the club just bought 2 brand new 2000 lumens lcd projectors just so i could use them and the reason they did this was everytime i was there where at least 1/3 more people there. Whats really cool is im right next to the Dj so i am just as visable as him.

I get people jumping and laghing and pointing at the screen and i know that a lot of you have experienced that. Just like everyone else i like to put on a good show i pass out free video cds that i've made that has my friends mix on it. I water mark the corner of the video to say my vj name and the Djs name so everytime they hear or see us on the flyers they remember who i am. Its all about how you present and get your name out there.

Now im just doing this in my local area but probaly in the next 3 months i will try to get into some other places too. But i've only been doing this for a short time and im 20 trying to pay for college and pretty much just doing this becuase its fun and i like doing it and maybe someday i could make some money off it. But the reason the big name DJs are getting paid good and are so known is becuase they know how to sell them selfs and there music. And until promoters realize who we are and what we do and they need it just as much as the Dj we will still be in the shadows.
P.S. Sorry for the long post i didnt have anything to do.

Dustin
Peace I.m out!

[murph]

you wanna have content good enough to be in demand for just your content? Look at http://www.bionicdots.com - these guys are doing just that. Take a lesson.

[PilotX]

Have to say, I'm in agreement with ***** here, but for one point.
In my experience, once a promotor has seen a live VJ, they realise what a difference it makes from a tape.

The other point to make is that for a promoter, if they are in a venue without visual kit built in (as is the case in most), it is a whole lot simpler for them to book a VJ who will bring and set up kit themselves. A good night takes alot of work, and if you know that some of this can safely be removed, then you will do that. It also means that if the VJ doesn't show, then you have not forked out for a useless projector etc.

[PilotX]

Originally posted by XeroDark
Whats really cool is im right next to the Dj so i am just as visable as him.

I get people jumping and laghing and pointing at the screen and i know that a lot of you have experienced that.


me and syzygy have found that when we are off stage at a venue, people are very interested in what is going on. Because of the monitors it is easy for them to relate what we are doing to the projections, and we get alot of comments and interested looks.
When we are by the DJ, comments tend to be from DJs/promoters
which is in a way better (For connections) but people need to know what we are up to.
Having said that, being by the dance floor is not a good idea on some nights ...

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by *****
ppl cant be expected to watch the screen all night but the Dj reaches them when they look in any direction. (...) perhaps if the entire room was filled with visuals instead of lighting we would have a chance.

i've done that before. for example at a rave in a theater, the only lighting there was, was spots. for the visuals we had a big screen (it almost completely covered the front side of the hall) & a powerful (bright) beamer. projecting bright footage would illuminate the hall enough to read a book :). in this setup the visuals would actually 'reach' the ppl no matter where they looked (...& even if they closed their eyes), being the main source of light in the room.
it's quite a difference to a 'normal' setup. the visuals are in the center of attention together with the music & as vj you can reach the crowd.
in any case, the ravers loved it.

[PilotX]

Originally posted by *****


the only flw there is that all too often the promoters are so busy counting heads,money, sorting wages and other problems that they are frequently too damn busy to see any of it

G

The difference between doing massive gigs and smaller clubs I guess. Still, promoters should be keeping an eye on everything happening at their event (or having someone else do it for them) in order to improve it.

[scarab]

Originally posted by *****


Its a double edged sword.

If you turn the promoter down at the price hes willing to pay then somebody else will likley take your spot. and If more clubs buy the equipment the easier it becomes for any Vj to turn up and play for less.

When the club own the equipment it could quickly become like the club Dj market where there will always be some DJ who will play for low wages to get exposure and then the clubs can rule the price.




i don't think that is true.... that would mean all the VJs are offering the SAME stuff for DIFFRENT PRICE.
who is offering something special will make it to be booked all over the world. the one who is not doing something special, and only uses same footage everyone uses, will get pay less or nothing.

one day you will book a VJ just like a DJ. and one good DJ cannot easily replaced by someone cheaper, because he'll never supply the same service.

i had an experience which was very interesting: i've been to two private birthdaypartys 2 weeks ago, and on every party, TV was playing. the guys who made the party just recorded a tape with some cartoons on it and let it play the whole evening.
if this kind of visual support has already found it's way to birthdaypartys it won't take long and promoters and clubs will jump on that train also.

this buisness is evolving right now ....
so let's evolve!!!!

[scarab]

Originally posted by *****


what was the cartoon?


G

there were some manga stuff (dragonball etc)
but the good one came from barbapapa (http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~mhp/)
i don't know from where these series are from, but they guided me through my childhood :-)
it's about some a family that look like some ecto-plasma-creatures and they can transform into anything.... it's like a bill-cosby-family-moral thing, but it looks really funny....

have fun

[scarab]

Originally posted by *****


hehe, Cheers mate..
Thanx for the heads up.:p If ya can think of anything else that will have such a stunning effect, keep me posted ;) Do ya think I should try to get some brithday party bookings?
:D :D :D :p

sure you'll do it...don't worry.... if you hang to it, you'll surley get birthday bookings :-)

what i actually wanted to say was, that this visuals thing already found it's way to a kind of "personal use". i think this is a very important thing for us VJs. That ANY kind of partys can be brushed up by some kind of visual performance (also if it's only some badly recorded kids-cartoon)
this is the first step of establishing VJ-Arts in Society, no?

[unjulation]

as an indicator then yhe i'd go with that, whats interesting is that the same theams keep perpetuating

[InsideUsAll]

Originally posted by *****


perhaps if the entire room was filled with visuals instead of lighting we would have a chance. Even if only one club in the world did this IT could kickstart the intrest, but untill we can find a neich market the promoters have an upper hand.

G

This is exactly what we're trying to address with a night we're starting in Reading, near London.

http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1009

I think one of the best ways we can raise the public & the promoters awareness is by socking it to them, and immersing them in an environment where they are completely surrounded by our visuals. Not everyone is perceptive enough to be aware of whats going on on a couple of screens. But if they are surrounded by visuals it will be a whole new experience that they will all talk about - which is what we sorely need!

AVit made me realise that this was the way forward. Visuals everywhere & VJ collaberation [technically, artistically, and resourcefully]

p.l.u.r

[michaelheap]

its what soxan, a club night we do in white chappel does, where vj's out number the dj's on occasion

check out www.soxan.co.uk

[VjDeranged]

Ok ok.. Ive read thru this entire thread...
you wanna know a secret .. when bidding for your price to promoters .. DO A LITTLE HOMEWORK ON THE EVENT FIRST!!!..
.. Im surprised that as mentioned above, there are Vjs backing the likes of CarlCox etc and getting paid 300euros...shame!!
.. I think it's better off here in India then! I dont do a show here for less than Indian Rupees 50,000 (Us$ 1000) and Proj equipment NOT included!

about the homework ... well i find out who the main sponsors are, (bacardi? redbull? sony?) ... say bacardi... well ok , how do you excite the sponsors? ...TIE in their product in an entertaining way with the event!
.. fire up 3dmax or whatever cheap 3d software you have ..anim8or (http://www.anim8or.com/) is free... create an animated dancing lemon - bacadi limon remember?
Now save the rendered animation as an avi/mov and take it into your favorite Vj app ... now visit the sponsor FIRST and show them the advantage you have over a static banner at the event.. ( tell the marketing geeks there that once the nightclub lights are down to party mode no banners can be seen...your video screen is the only thing that shines their product) ... Guess what!
you dont have to sell to the promoter anymore... the Sponsors insist that they want U!
.. if the event dosnt have a sponsor, repeat step "a" above to the venue promoter and tie in his logo etc in with your visuals...

...ok so the solution is a bit commercial ... but hey if it pays your price? :)

VjDeranged
www.immersivetelevision.com

[ikulius]

I hear that in Japan a vj is an indespensible part of any party. I am geussing that this is due to the very visual orientation of Japanese society as in their acceptence of comics as an art form or a business tool. Quoting on earlier post on this thread that VJ's have a lot of work to do when compared to DJ's I would say that this can be true. It's a lot of work especially if you have a public that demands something different every time you step up to the VJ booth. The computer makes this somewhat easier. Personally I demand of myself to create new things all the time and I think that is part of the nature of being a good VJ. Pushing the limits of the technology to create something nobody expected to see before and to enhance their experience when they are jumping up and down to the beat of the music. Yes, we should be rewarded for our deeds.