Promoter tactics!!

[SilentEclipse]

I have just pulled out of a show because at the last minute the promoter said he couldn't pay my full fee.:grrr:

I wouldn't have been so drastic but this is the second time he has tried to do this to me. ie I am asked to make custom visuals about a month before the show, I put forward my costs a couple of weeks later and a day before the gig he says he can only pay part of the fee for various reasons such as the gig not selling very well and things going over budget.

Do any of you guys have this problem? If s so how do you deal with it.

Cheers

[oxygen]

- that is so unfair!!
I would say:
1 . ask the promoter for a contract.
2. even better: make him pay in advance, or at least a part of it.!!
esp. when u allready had 1 bad experience...with same person.
like that u both take a risk and the poss. that things go wrong are much smaller.

[vjrei]

Make a deal with him to pay you at the moment what he can... the set up you equipment and at 12am shut down everything and get out of here.

When he aske you ?why? you say that the amount just covered part of the show.


For sure he/she wont pay you until the end of the show.

The other thing you can do is to run just one clip during the entire night. If he gets cheap on you you can get cheap on him as well.

Or, you can do excatly what you did, to turn down the event but just before the envent starts. You can tell him: you know what? I really feel bad giving away my work like this, you can understand.

And that is it. If he likes to do things at last time you can do it too. I mean, the event does not have to come out of your pocket. Why he does not say the same thing to the sound people or to the DJ?

Now, remember for the next time to be very clear and firm since the begining, since the moment of the agreement, no later.

That way he will have in his mind not to mess up with this guy because he is almost "intimidating". Neurolinguistics man.

[holly]

Originally posted by SilentEclipse
how do you deal with it.
Like you did. Walk. What happened last time? Did you do it for partial pay? I would have done like you, given him a second chance but not a third.

It still sux. Sorry to hear it. I wouldn't stick around for half a show or just one clip. That's a waste of your time: something he already doesn't value.... Chances are, if he's trying to screw you he's doing it to others too. It's so not about you, but it still sux.

Sorry. Beer's on me.
:cheers:

I'll tell you about the time I packed up and walked out of the club half-way thru. I was going to take a coupla plasmas with me, but my partner Eric is a really nice guy and felt all guilty about it and wouldn't steal them. I was like "karma owes us, man. More than that, that club owner-shit owes us!" That plasma'd make a fuckin great coffeetable! Well, I'm a vindictive bitch-of-a-bitch but whatever, I lost a job that didn't pay (so it wasn't really a job) and then I lost the chance to steal a really great coffeetable/plasma screen that would have been such a cool trophy and made up for the insult everytime I snorted coke off it. Hell, I don't even do coke but I'd buy some just to invite everybody over and do lines while your face is two inches from the most rad-ass Vj blinkin shit... woulda been insaaane, but that's life. Sux. It wasn't more than a month before the owner lost his club and now he's back trying to produce Whitney Houston singles. Bleh. He deserves that.

I still fantasize about stealing that plasma. Woulda been legend.... Damn, goody-goody partner.

[vjTranceKoder]

Hell, I don't even do coke but I'd buy some just to invite everybody over and do lines while your face is two inches from the most rad-ass Vj blinkin shit
:roll: :lol: :roll: :haha: :haha: :kiss: :crazyeyes


.....oh, BTW SilentEclipse, I wouldn't take shit from ANY promoter. I tend to agree with those who advise going straight to the sponsors of a party, if any, and get paid what you deserve by simply making a few "trippy" movies that somehow showcasw their product. Most promoters are broke anyway. How you were treated is straight up bullshit, though you walked right into it. I think you should've requested half the funds up front - that way if he doesn't have the other half by showtime then there is no showtime-for visuals that is. The half that is paid up front is for content creation and date reservation, which are now both fulfilled. The other half is for the gig, so that means if he doesn't pay b4 the show at least you got paid for what time you DID spend messing with his shit, I mean original content.
WTF!!!:grrr: Don't lower your bids or get taken advantage of just becauze somebody else undercuts you, whether it be a vj or a promoter. F!@# them and spend time on your craft. Hell, throw a free party where everyone plays and listens for free. It's more fun that way :yep: Especially if some shady ass is going to pull the carpet out from underneath you just b4 a gig. What an loser! Respect yourself and all else follows...

[Rovastar]

Shame that happened. It always is when it does.

Contracts are good they make you sound more professional sadly is someone really wasn't going to pay it would be a pain to follow up on a contract. Court action is often an extreme and costly & timeconsuming process and but sadly the only thing to get action if someone really does not want to pay.

Play the for custom content I want half in advance routine.

Originally posted by holly
I'll tell you about the time I packed up and walked out of the club half-way thru. I was going to take a coupla plasmas with me, but my partner Eric is a really nice guy and felt all guilty about it and wouldn't steal them. I was like "karma owes us, man. More than that, that club owner-shit owes us!" That plasma'd make a fuckin great coffeetable! Well, I'm a vindictive bitch-of-a-bitch but whatever, I lost a job that didn't pay (so it wasn't really a job) and then I lost the chance to steal a really great coffeetable/plasma screen that would have been such a cool trophy and made up for the insult everytime I snorted coke off it. Hell, I don't even do coke but I'd buy some just to invite everybody over and do lines while your face is two inches from the most rad-ass Vj blinkin shit... woulda been insaaane, but that's life. Sux. It wasn't more than a month before the owner lost his club and now he's back trying to produce Whitney Houston singles. Bleh. He deserves that.

I still fantasize about stealing that plasma. Woulda been legend.... Damn, goody-goody partner.

Yeap a vindictive bitch-of-a-bitch you are :) We have more in common than you think Hol. :)

[SilentEclipse]

Thanks for all the advice and support, I am still feeling a bit down about it to be honest.

But I feel I am fully justified in canceling the gig, the promoter puts on big name reggae acts in London, my first gig with him was for Morgan Heritage....he did not pay me for this, the second was for Horace Andy and others...where he threatened to cut my fee on the day of the gig but eventually paid me my full fee after I shouted at him down the phone.:crazy:

I swore I would not work with him again but I adore playing to a rastafarian crowd, so I agreed to do the current show.

I have spent days on end creating the content and many many ?'s updating my equipment. My original fee would not have really covered the time or costs but I saw it as a good way of building up a library etc.

I also agreed to play for 6 hrs at a fee that would have barely covered 3 hrs of performance time.

So all in all I was doing him a big favour.

Also I have worked in footage sales for about 5 years and there is a general rule that you never go down in price and devalue your product.

So there it is, I am going to make a cup of tea now!! :love:

and vjTranceKoder I did think that i would never do a paid commercial gig again because they are a huge pain in the arse, but I will not let the bastards get me like that.

We all deserve better than this!!!!

:grouphug:

[spark]

make that a cup of tea with a slug ol' rhum =]

mmm... jamaica =]

toby

[Nema]

refering to initial post: i had the exactly same problem *many* times. somewhen i also stopped delivering such horrible customers, and as result i nearly don't do gigs at all anymore. there are enough other VJs doing all kind of gigs for *free* just because it is their first time and because they think it is pure fun and payment does not matter. sooner or later they will share the same destiny with me and eighter insist in a better payment or let other newcomers do the jobs.

since 3 years, i only do one gig (the "energy" in zurich, a famous rave party in switzerland) a year, for an acceptable payment and as much free drinks as i want :).

[fluchtpunkt]

hey nema,

i think you're drawing a too pessimistic image of things in switzerland (or perhaps you were just never lucky enough to meet the right people). promoters refusing to pay the full fee agreed upon beforehand has never happened to me before - 'except' for a very few times when a night went very badly and put the promoter, a friend, into a tight spot financially and i was asked permission to lower my fee (to which i then agreed). on the other hand it has also happened to me (although not many times ;) ), that a promoter gave me more money than agreed upon because he was so satisfied with my work. i never have written contracts btw.
...
promoters that care about what kind of visuals come into their clubs wont let any random beginner vj do the work; they will also be willing to negotiate a deal with you both sides can agree upon. promoters who don't care won't. on the other hand, promoters that care about the visuals will (from my experiance) usually expect you, the vj, to care about a bit more than 'just' your visuals - namely creating a social space together that will (hopefully) rock the crowd. that means you have to waste a few thoughts on the target audience of the night, the space/architecture, the music, the vibe the promoter is aiming for, how to build a core crowd, etc... how your visuals can enhance these things or how they can be integrated, respectively... (...btw i'm not (!) saying that if a promoter fucks with you you weren't doing any of these things). having been throwing parties with people when nobody made any money with it and having helped build up a reputation is probably the best recipe to getting treated respectfully.
in short: a promoter who does his job with dedication will expect people working for him to do so with the same amount of dedication.... and he will try to pay those people decently.
...
ps: nema (with no intention to flame :heart: ), remembering a chat we had a couple of years ago: i was under the impression that the energy - considering that they have >10'000 punters paying something like 50 sfr each for their ticket - payed their vjs dirt cheap rates for their work. that was a few years ago & i don't know what has changed... and incidentally congrats for your residency there and i hope you and visualjockey can profit from the big exposure you get there. in any case i (and people i work with) haven't had too good experiances with that specific promoter (...he's a rather aggressive 'businessman', not a 'curator'). ...so i guess what this shows is that sometimes 'good promoter' <-> 'bad promoter' may also depend on your personal perspective and how good two people work/fit together.



edited to add:

btw, perhaps there is another tactic instead of simply pulling out of a show that might work if a promoter refuses to pay you the full rate at the last minute: if it is indeed the 'last minute' then the promoter will have loads of work to do in order to get the party going in time. just 'terrorize' him that he has to pay you as agreed upon or your gig is cancelled and don't let loose and thereby keep him from getting anything done! there should be a lot of pressure you can put on a promoter this way. he will either agree on giving you your full rate or agree on cancelling your gig - and should you ever work with him again he probably wont try to fuck with you anymore.

[Nema]

...another explanation why i don't do many gigs anymore is that i simply prefer earning money with coding instead of VJing. :-) probably my coder skills are better than my VJ skills... :-)

[SilentEclipse]

Well the latest on the situation is that the promoter has come crawling back on his belly to offer me my full fee.

But it is now to late to get a projector to the venue in time for the gig.

I kinda feel a bit bad about this to be honest, but that will teach him to play silly games with me at the last minute.

:pirate:

[Rovastar]

Don't feel bad about it.:heart:

[SilentEclipse]

Well it seems that some good has come out of all this as it turns out that the promoters competitors have been asking about me and he may be able to get me more gigs as a special service for them.

And they will be helping me to buy my own 3000 lumen projector too.

So there you have it folks, stick to your guns and don't undervalue yourself. :love:

[elbows]

Groovy outcome :)

[vjpixylight]

Good for you Silent Eclipse:jump: :jump2: :jump:
Often the correct "Hard Decision" isn't alway's apparent at first, but later discovered and Shared...:yep:
Cheer's Mate!

[wellREDman]

you go girl :D

[holly]

Yay! See? You did the right thing.

[seex]

Great outcome!!!

What the promotor did is no way to treat anyone.

Dont feel bad for him, he will cal you the next time for shure you proved that you know the walue of your work. Cosider a contract the next time, and some money in advance is a normal thing in cultural production, for expenses.

This vendictive situation is still a great laugh when i talk to my friends. Couple of years ago me and a friend were making a birthday party in a club that didnt have all the papers jet, but we realised this only when he started coming up to us and saying that the music is to loud. Hey we rented your club, whats the problem, he said the police might show up and close the party, we didnt cosidir this our problem, besides the music was not tahat loud. So when he came about the third or fourt thime, we put the music on realy loud sent out all the smoke from the smoke machine and switched the strobo on, the whole street was glowing like a christmass tree. He than switched the power off, and we started packing everytihng. There was so much smoke in there that you culd hardly see your feet and soon everyone started helping to pack, we just took everytihing that was loose. Serves him right for stoping the party and letting 40 angry individuals help pack the eqippement, he,he,he.

The guy was saving even on security, he figured a closed group will not make problems, so he only had one security guy, we even managed to pack some bottels of the bar and just went over to a friends flat and finished the party there.

[holly]

Har har har! I want more revenge stories! They make me feel better.

[akira_k]

Ok I'm in the verge of creating a very nice revenge story soon, since the clubv where we got a residency is being shit with payments and disrespect.

Probably this week we have a revenge story if they don't get their shit together :D

[matthecat]

a promoter contacted me a few weeks ago saying that he had a gig and actually asked me to work for ?petrol money :D

he tired to blag me by saying that the DJs were doing for the petrol money too... the venue is a 2hr drive away and the job will take about 14 hours all told... he said that if 'all goes well' he'll 'sort us out'

shyeahright ;)

venue capacity 1200 @ ?10 per ticket!

i told him that we'd could do money per head that comes through the door on the night if he'd be happy to sign a contract to this effect...

he said this was ok and then proceeded to email me back the contract with his name typed both times into the spaces for my name with july 2003 as the date :spank: :roll:

[murph]

lol...

I've had this happen several times, last minute the promter gets nervous, wants something cheaper... I tell them I'd be happy to reduce the number of screens, or put them on a sliding scale fee... they get x number of folks through the door, I get paid x extra. The last gig I did this I actually got paid more than my original fee, because the promoter was so happy with my work.

I also usually require a 50% deposit, even though I'm not usually creating custom content. If I know the promoter will come through, and they have a good track record, usually I'll let that slide, but definitely not for the newbies.

[Kyle]

I just sent out my first contract to be signed. Thanks to the template that was provided on VJC and a few additions. Let?s see what happens. When I mentioned on the phone to the promoter that i was sending out a performance contract he seemed surprised and then went on to say "I only use contracts for the big names." Maybe he just should of said "Your a nobody....you don?t deserve a contract" LoL Well, I insisted and said it was for both of our benifits and it makes things clear so there won?t be any confusion. Geez...promoters suck donkey nads!

I am sure there will be more drama to follow. Stay tuned for more VJ misadventures.:D

[futureworkergirl]

Yesterday i came across an article called "how to hire a DJ" & the advice it presented can be taken & applied by us VJs trying to get credibility & respect in the biz... The main thing I gleaned is the attitude of professionalism... not just in the making of the work, but in the way we present ourselves to get the gig-- this includes everything from dressing respectfully to presenting a contract up front... this is normal biusiness in the entertainment industry & we can benefit by following suit!

http://www.mixmasterdjs.com/how_to_hire_a_dj.htm

xo
vjFWG

[pointblankvisuals]

1. draw up general terms and conditions; this requires a bit of time and thought. Of course having a professional draw these up for you cld come w/ considerable costs, so save yourself some money and check out the terms & conditions on our site for an example; feel free to adapt these to your personal needs, but be sure to have them checked!

2. work with a written contract in which a reference is made to the applicability of the terms & conditions.

3. make a copy of the signed contract and supply your counterparty a copy of your terms & conditions.

4. ask for 50% up front, 50% before/after event; if you have to rent equipment from third parties then definitely have your counterparty pay all related costs beforehand. preferably use invoices.

5. save all written communication (e mails etc) just in case things turn sour.


legal costs arising out of failure to perform can consequently be charged to the promoter; of course, more drastic measures will prolly lead to trade-off between continued business and getting the remuneration that you are legally entitled to...
----

good luck

david
[visuals and legal advise]