the truth [Archive]

businessman

6th July 2004, 02:30 PM

hi folks, time to tell the truth.

1) clubs don't like to pay VJs, they like to exploit them to the max.

2) most VJs cheat: they use cracked software and ripped content. shame on you! time to become honestly and creative folks!

3) most VJs work really hard but still they cannot produce satisfying shows. looking at what game-engines can do, the standard vj-software producers really are years behind in their technology.

4) most equipments of VJs is ridiculous. VJs have a talent on spending all their money on useless expensive hardware-equipment (and use cheap cracked software, tsss!). don't know why, it seems it makes them feel good. but instead they could do everything with some advanced software (don't want to mention any specific here) and ONE clever add-on (e.g. a simple midi-faderbar).

5) have a look at the car industry. everybody admires and watches formula 1, but I guess no-one of you has a ferrari at home. you don't really think that your golf or mazda could keep up the formula 1 car from ferrary could keep up? there IS a comparable professional market in the lightning industry with some superior hardware/software-products. the developers of this software are genious, comparable to the engineers of ferrari in formula one. however, somehow most VJs I know are too arrogant to get friends with this big players, thinking they could save the world if they fight against them.

6) most developers of VJ-software sooner or later understand that it is impossible to make a living by developing and selling VJ software. those who did not want to give up completely are now part of the global player development teams... ...it is time to make friends with them!

vjpixylight

6th July 2004, 02:57 PM

your on the wrong forum mate...

elbows

6th July 2004, 03:04 PM

Well I think there is an element of truth to the things you are saying, but the word "most" is being overused somewhat.

Everything people say is opinion, so without knowing who you are, whether you are a VJ or work in some other industry, it is impossible to get a proper understanding of your opinions.

For a start its rubbish to say that all the fancy hardware VJs use is useless. People have different styles. If you want to control 50 elements in a show in realtime, 1 midi fader simply will not do. Some VJs have some useless hardware, some vjs might occasionally spend the wrong proportion of time/money on hardware, but Ive made these mistakes with software too.

Unfortunately yes there are a percentage of people out there who are alergic to buying software, and will use cracked stuff because they can. Its a cultural attitude towards software that crosses all fields, not unique to VJing therefore unlikely to be solved by VJ's. Any realistic businessman will factor these things intot heir business model, and rely on the professional users who want professional support, and therefore buy the thing.

I dont see how arrogance prevents VJs from getting up close and personal with big players in the ligting software industry. The big players software is either inappropriate for VJ use, is way out of budget by being tied to very expensive hardware, or else the lighting people percieve the lack of money in VJing and thus arent interested in focussing their product marketing/feature development into the VJ arena.

Your post says as much about you as it does about every other VJ and the scene. I have my suspicions as to who you really are, not in California for a start!

elbows

6th July 2004, 03:23 PM

Also what happens to the VJs who try to do the right thing with software but is let down by the developer?

What if they buy the sophisticated software and expensive add-ons, but in the meantime the developers get upset at not making loads of money?

The developer can throw his toys out of the pram and rant with a massive chip on shoulder about how its all somebody elses fault, and then either stay bitter or move on to a realistic profitable project.

But thats no help to the user who has made the investment, only to find support and updates and future plans turn to nothing, and that it is not possible to be a truly professional VJ when the future of the tools he uses is so unclear. Isnt this type of user punished by the crackers just as much as the developers are punished? At least the developers have the power to decide what to do about it, the users have no control, they are reliant on the developers doing the right thing.

vjrei

6th July 2004, 04:29 PM

Now:

1) clubs don't like to pay VJs, they like to exploit them to the max.

A: That is because VJs are doing their best to call the attention and the worst on their performances.

2) most VJs cheat: they use cracked software and ripped content. shame on you! time to become honestly and creative folks!

A: Count me in! I create little content, just dadicated content for the party if the budged is good. Remember, no DJ makes their own music neither.

3) most VJs work really hard but still they cannot produce satisfying shows. looking at what game-engines can do, the standard vj-software producers really are years behind in their technology.

A: You are mixing two things there. Not everybody with a video camera and a V4 is a VJ. You need to get in touch with the music at list.

Softares developers are really behind but that is in general. Why we do not have video Firewire output at this stages???? Where is the people of Arakos on this matter?

4) most equipments of VJs is ridiculous. VJs have a talent on spending all their money on useless expensive hardware-equipment (and use cheap cracked software, tsss!). don't know why, it seems it makes them feel good. but instead they could do everything with some advanced software (don't want to mention any specific here) and ONE clever add-on (e.g. a simple midi-faderbar).

A: I am agree, if you take the kaleidoscope_effect out of the V4 most of the VJs will die. On the other hand "to have a V4 make you a VJ!!!!"

Forget about MIDI, that is way too deep.

As I wrote before, I just saw some one (very arrogant) from the VJ comunity here in NYC using 2 V4 mixers and she was running the kaleidoscope_effect all night long. Now, your statement #1 should come then. The worst part is that the rest of the VJs pay for that as well.

5) have a look at the car industry. everybody admires and watches formula 1, but I guess no-one of you has a ferrari at home. you don't really think that your golf or mazda could keep up the formula 1 car from ferrary could keep up? there IS a comparable professional market in the lightning industry with some superior hardware/software-products. the developers of this software are genious, comparable to the engineers of ferrari in formula one. however, somehow most VJs I know are too arrogant to get friends with this big players, thinking they could save the world if they fight against them.

A: I gues you got to creative here.

6) most developers of VJ-software sooner or later understand that it is impossible to make a living by developing and selling VJ software. those who did not want to give up completely are now part of the global player development teams... ...it is time to make friends with them!

A: I hope they still in business, but for example. I was telling to the people of Arkaos about having Firewire output but for then was more important to develop a network video connection. That was last year. Where is the network connection and the firewire output?

There is a problem here between what the performance need and what the developers want to take you.

Why Motion Dive Tokio is not Midi capable? please open your eyes! If I was able to trigger my clips from a midi keyboard I would need any other software. Instead I use Arkaos in one computer and Motion Dive 3 in another one.

---

In conclusion, I see there is a lot of frustration in the comunity right now. I do not know what people are doing in AVIT, I wish I could go some day.

trotskythecat

6th July 2004, 04:31 PM

Where are you located in California?

Send me a private message if you're for real and I'll get you in to any of my shows - you can see a promoter who cares about the VJs and treats them well, VJs who are using software the've paid for, and shows that match the music and that dancers are digging.

Step up to the plate - reveal yourself - and quit being so vague, eh? What 'Formula 1' software are you talking about, specifically?

wellREDman

6th July 2004, 04:33 PM

interesting theory Joeproper

i agree bubbles, this smells like an existing user using a dummyID to start a flamewar

I dont think it is the person your thinking of tho, I'd guess from the language use that english isnt his first language tho

elbows

6th July 2004, 04:49 PM

Like I said Rei, I vaguely sort of agree with some of what the original poster said. However Rei there is one stunning contradiction in your attitude which I cannot understand. You say that VJs who use the same effect all night are bad for other VJs. Why do you not also think that VJs who dont create their own content often are as much of a problem to other VJs? Only because you cannot consider yourself at all to blame?

Bottom line is that it doesnt matter if its the software, hardware, effects used or clips used, style used, platform, beautifulness of the operator, ITS THE OUTPUT PEOPLE SEE THAT COUNTS. Whether it is boring footage made great by realtime effects etc, or great footage with not much live input/effects, it doesnt matter, judge the output like the audience would, not overanalyse stuff in detail with VJ-specific-knowledge of technique.

Red you dont know who I think it is lol.

Exavior

6th July 2004, 05:35 PM

Many of the issues he addressed are true to a point, but I think a lot of what he said was too extreme.

The VJ scene is still in its infancy. Not all promoters are willing to spend a great deal of money on their VJs. Not many people go to a club because ?VJ X? is there, DJs still fill the clubs. Add to that the cost of hardware and what you are left with is someone who makes little and spends a lot. (Granted some VJs can make a living off it, but not all can) That?s partly why for many this is just a hobby or second job. Software developers know this, that?s why the ?F1? guys are focusing more at the lighting industry, because every club, stadium, and venue can take advantage of it. Not to mention that lighting has been around for a much longer time and therefore is more established in the entertainment industry as a viable expenditure for a promoter. And not all VJs are that great? I?ve seen many bad ones as well, but at least they are out there making an effort. It takes a lot of hard work and talent to be a good VJ, as many of the members of this forum have shown through years of devotion. Not every kid in a club with Winamp visuals running will be making $500 a gig.

So when you take a look at the existing industry built up around VJing, you are not going to see a lot of software companies making a fortune off selling software to us. We just don?t have the money yet. Because of that the software developers have to increase their price to make more money off a single sale. They sell so few copies that they need to make as much as possible off every sale to turn a profit. And it is quite understandable how that can make a VJ with a limited bankroll use cracked software. But I personally feel the need to buy a legitimate copy to help support these developers that are backing our cause. The software may not be that great, and it truly is ~5 years behind what could be done given game engine technology... But look at the market for game engines, millions of people in hundreds of countries, and the outsourcing of the engine to other game development houses. They can afford that type of R&D.

As this art form grows, and the money grows with it, software developers will be able to devote more time and money to creating the applications we really need. But for now you are left with many of us making our own software? Which if anything just shows you the true talent and devotion that exists in this field.

Just my $0.2

sleepytom

6th July 2004, 06:05 PM

hehe - its not who red thinks it might be

it might be who elbows thinks it is

anyroad up it is not important who this businessman is lets address his points...

1. - clubs don't like to pay anyone (chances are as a VJ you are being payed more than most people who work in the club inc the bar staff, the doormen, the lighting guy and the lesser known DJs)

2. - umm do you have any stats on that? how the hell do you know how many VJs have payed for the software they use (prehapse they didn't buy your software because it wasn't very good / had terriable tech support)

3. - Umm again define "standard vj-software producers" and face up to the simple fact that most users don't care about the engine that drives there software - they are more intrested in usability and support than having the latest GPU support

4. - Umm again this isn't true - you cannot always do everything in software, hardware is an important part of the VJ world at all levels (more so at the top than the bottom)

5. - what are these great products - how are they so much better than the products made by other people - what are you on about??#

6. - most software developers understand their users are the most important asset they have - they go out of their way to provide help and support for their users - they don't charge for bug fixes - they don't blame 3rd party plugins for bugs in their application - they don't say that the user is wrong when they have found a bug in the app - they don't give up development whilst bundelling their existing buggy apps into a "gold package" to sell to people with no plans of offering support to the user.

why are you stil obssed with blaming VJs for your lack of welth - surely your failure to become rich is down to a lack of market research (if you had done your homework you'd never expected to become rich from VJ software) if you are really such a good developer you will have no problem getting a job programming something much more profitable than VJ software.

wellREDman

6th July 2004, 06:07 PM

to take the f1 analogy a bit further, its more like way F1 was in the sixties(40's?) when guys like jack brabham and Bruce Mclaren were building and racing their own cars, the mainstream Hard and Software ppl are only just starting to sniff around vjing,

loboy

6th July 2004, 07:02 PM

1) clubs don't like to pay VJs, they like to exploit them to the max.

too large a generalization. it is a working relationship between the artist and the club. these factors are dependent on different variables.

2) most VJs cheat: they use cracked software and ripped content. shame on you! time to become honestly and creative folks!

sure. but across the board in any industry you will find people cracking software and sampling different media.

3) most VJs work really hard but still they cannot produce satisfying shows. looking at what game-engines can do, the standard vj-software producers really are years behind in their technology.

this is your opinion of what a satisfying show is. I have seen plenty of shows that blew my mind. game-engines are for video games, not vjing. Vjing can consist of a show not even using computers (slide projectors, film projectors, etc).

4) most equipments of VJs is ridiculous. VJs have a talent on spending all their money on useless expensive hardware-equipment (and use cheap cracked software, tsss!). don't know why, it seems it makes them feel good. but instead they could do everything with some advanced software (don't want to mention any specific here) and ONE clever add-on (e.g. a simple midi-faderbar).

vjs are definetly gadget freaks. what is useless to you, may be gold to someone else. If you are giving such great advice, why not list the specific advanced software?

5) have a look at the car industry. everybody admires and watches formula 1, but I guess no-one of you has a ferrari at home. you don't really think that your golf or mazda could keep up the formula 1 car from ferrary could keep up? there IS a comparable professional market in the lightning industry with some superior hardware/software-products. the developers of this software are genious, comparable to the engineers of ferrari in formula one. however, somehow most VJs I know are too arrogant to get friends with this big players, thinking they could save the world if they fight against them.

This analogy of vjing with the car industry is so far fetched. As for vjs being arrogant, what sample size are you looking at? Who are the big players?
Save the world?

6) most developers of VJ-software sooner or later understand that it is impossible to make a living by developing and selling VJ software. those who did not want to give up completely are now part of the global player development teams... ...it is time to make friends with them!

A lot of software developers find it hard to make a living of their wares, not just vjs. Global player development teams??? What is a global player anyway?

This just reaks of self-reflection.

Rovastar

6th July 2004, 08:21 PM

Godamnit you lot there is nothing else really to be said.

Although I am more concerned for MRs. Red by Mr Red calling elbows bubbles......:eek: :terror: :scream:

Originally posted by wellREDman
i agree bubbles, this smells like an existing user using a dummyID to start a flamewar

syzygy

6th July 2004, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by sleepytom
if you are really such a good developer you will have no problem getting a job programming something much more profitable than VJ software.

Bear in mind that most kinds of programming work nowerdays require some social skills as well as programming ability.

If the original poster is indeed a programmer, s/he may well have difficulty with that sort of thing, given that s/he seems to have used an imaginary character to articulate his/her issues with the VJ scene.

Dan.

P.S. I don't want 'game engine technology' in my VJ tools. The last thing I want is for people at our shows to look at the screens and think they're looking at a computer game.

elbows

6th July 2004, 09:32 PM

I want game engine technology in some of the tools I use, in so much as the 3D hardware and programming interfaces have advanced so far because of the mass 3D game market.

wellREDman

6th July 2004, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Rovastar
Godamnit you lot there is nothing else really to be said.

Although I am more concerned for MRs. Red by Mr Red calling elbows bubbles......:eek: :terror: :scream:

lol it wasnt me it was holly who Christened him bubbles, i just carried it on in a childish schoolyard way :)

Exavior

6th July 2004, 09:36 PM

Quoting syzygy
P.S. I don't want 'game engine technology' in my VJ tools. The last thing I want is for people at our shows to look at the screens and think they're looking at a computer game.Actually game engine technology is not what you think. It does not have to look like a game to benefit from their technology.

Basically video games push advancements in graphics processing and hardware in the same way that internet porn pushes advancements in bandwidth. (as funny as that statement is, it?s quite true)

Many features of game engines are quite advantageous to people in the video world. Like the real time 3D manipulation of a texture (which could be a live video source), particle effects, 3D camera control, baked normals, shaders, usage of hardware acceleration to produce real time effects at a high frame rate. The list could go on for days. When it comes to the real-time rendering of visual effects, game engines is the first stop.

Game engine technology, though based on 3D environments, can be applied to 2D image and video manipulation. It?s not about looking like a game on screen, but taking advantage of the engine?s real-time graphical power.

many2

6th July 2004, 10:53 PM

Let's answer this point by point

1) clubs don't like to pay VJs, they like to exploit them to the max.

I also feel clubs relations with VJs are sometimes close to exploitation but there are some hidden gems among promoters. Most of these promoters will have a "vision" of what they want from a VJ : if the promoter is clueless about what he wants don't expect the pay to be good.

2) most VJs cheat: they use cracked software and ripped content. shame on you! time to become honestly and creative folks!

I agree with previous replies that this is the case in a lot of other software related jobs like videogame, web or film industries. You'll find a lot less pirated software in engineering, medical or defense related jobs though. The difference between all these industries and VJing is the fact that there are so few potential customers (and that each of them isn't a rich corporation either) that even a small percentage of pirate versions is really doing a lot of harm. The development of my favorite software (vJo) has been stopped not because of a lack of user but because of a lack of "legal users". It's nice to see the vJo community is still growing and that a record number of third party developpers are extending the software's features even beyond its death, but it is very sad all these people have to work mostly for free.

3) most VJs work really hard but still they cannot produce satisfying shows. looking at what game-engines can do, the standard vj-software producers really are years behind in their technology.

That is quite related to point 2 in my opinion. If there were more customers paying for their VJ software more development would have been done and we would be closer to the tools one can use in the videogame industry. More and more VJ softwares are borrowing ideas from game development mainly because most computer users now have bombs sitting on their graphic card. The future is bright for VJ softwares based on videogame technologies but it's a shame the VJing market isn't serious enough to financially back such developments.

4) most equipments of VJs is ridiculous. VJs have a talent on spending all their money on useless expensive hardware-equipment (and use cheap cracked software, tsss!). don't know why, it seems it makes them feel good. but instead they could do everything with some advanced software (don't want to mention any specific here) and ONE clever add-on (e.g. a simple midi-faderbar).

I don't inderstand either why one is willing to pay for his hardware but keeps stealing his software since he really needs both to be able to work as a VJ. Indeed, with some advanced software you can emulate everything a hardware mixer can do, it's just that most software aren't reliable enough.

5) have a look at the car industry. everybody admires and watches formula 1, but I guess no-one of you has a ferrari at home. you don't really think that your golf or mazda could keep up the formula 1 car from ferrary could keep up? there IS a comparable professional market in the lightning industry with some superior hardware/software-products. the developers of this software are genious, comparable to the engineers of ferrari in formula one. however, somehow most VJs I know are too arrogant to get friends with this big players, thinking they could save the world if they fight against them.

Not everyone can be a F1 driver - not everyone can be an amazing VJ ! Racing a F1 car requires sponsors, training, assistants and an international audience. It will still be a year or two ( :roll: ) before VJing gets to that level.

syzygy

6th July 2004, 11:00 PM

LOL, I'm not quite so clueless about game tech as you might think ;)

Obviously I don't think VJ apps should shun anything that has been devised for use in games. That would be stupid, just as it would be stupid to reject ideas from any other field out of hand.

What I mean is that I don't want developers to get the idea that the future of VJ apps should neccessarily be based on the same techniques that are used for games. I don't want developers to build systems that look like the latest 3D shooter. I want developers to think about what features their users want and then find the best way to provide those features.

I hear a lot of people saying VJ apps should adopt games techniques more. I see far fewer people actually giving specific examples of effects that I am interested in using that would be made possible through adoption of games techniques.

At present, the only games tech that I have actually invested any time in learning is pixel shaders, but I was sorely disapointed to discover the limitations that the current generation of video cards have on what you can actually do in a shader. They're useful for certain kinds of effects, but other effects are simply impossible to achieve. For the near future at least, they can only be a partial solution for applying effects to video.

I have been shown some 3D stuff recently that interested me, but what exicited me was how to make it not look like a game

Dan.

apu

6th July 2004, 11:17 PM

I get paid for the work I do in clubs and I own a register copy of my VJ s/w cause I believe in what Renan is trying to do.

Your post is full of wild generalisations Mr Businessman.

Exavior

7th July 2004, 12:19 AM

I was not saying that you are clueless. Over the ages I?ve read a lot of your posts and I know better than to make such an assumption. :)

As per your statement: ?I don't want developers to build systems that look like the latest 3D shooter.?

I totally agree. You just have to hope the end developer knows how to use the engine... Not just change a couple textures and models.

The engine or technology of a game is not what makes the looks, that all comes to the designers. (Though the engine does contribute to the effects that can be achieved) The same engine that powers the next-gen shooter (take mythical creature that is the halflife2 engine) can be used to create all kinds of two dimensional effects, or plainer 3 dimensional effects. Most people think of the engine as the game its self. Part of my background is in game development so I can attest to the flexibility of many 3D engines.

Yeah, shaders have their limitations? But as the hardware power increases and more of that processing can be spit over to the GPU, the shaders will become a lot more powerful.

Now that some more advanced game engines have added effects like focal blurring and various camera effects, we can get a lot more out of them visually. Take the latest PC version of the game ?Splinter Cell.? Their camera effects for night vision, heat vision, em vision, and motion vision all have a lot of potential as real time effects.

solly

7th July 2004, 12:20 AM

How can you take someone seriously if he doesnt know how to spell Ferrari.

holly

7th July 2004, 02:22 AM

RED..., the "bubbles" thing was a moment of dyslexia...! I have the utmost respect for Elbows and I applaud how patiently he deals with alter-ego episodes like these, but Busman isn't really saying anything we haven't thought at one time or other. Well, except for the race car thing. I don't understand that analogy at all.... Must be a guy thing.

Busman, some of your points are valid, but I agree with Bub... -er I mean Elbows. You're having a bad day dude. It's ok. It'll pass.

And Rei, Hello, uh... KETTLE?! You say a certain female VJ in NYC favors the 4-way mirror effect: BIG DEAL. She has a regular bigclub gig every Saturday night AND promotes her own A/VJ events, not to mention collaborating with dance companies on Broadway this fall. She's a friend of mine and I have to say she's very generous and supportive. Sometimes the business end of VJing has nothing to do with content or what you show on the screens, not trying to impress other VJs.... Isn't that more or less what you said a few threads ago when everyone ragged you for playing MD clips as your advertised content? I can only guess if she acted coldly towards you that maybe you have rubbed her the wrong way. It wouldn't be the first time.

trotskythecat

7th July 2004, 02:23 AM

I'm just loving that this thread is still around. This guy obviously can't back anything up - he just threw a gerbil into our pants and now we're running around in circles.

Or maybe it's the summer heat that is starting all these flames?

Oh, by the way - VJing is bollocks, Girls are just Boobs that talk, Everyone in California is a Cockstar and Macs are for idiots with too much money.

Exavior

7th July 2004, 03:03 AM

How dare you insult boobs, bollocks, idiots and money like that, those are two of my favorite things.
</flame>

asterix

7th July 2004, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by kommy
reeks of self interest

Sniff Sniff... oooh yeah... sniff... hmmmmm ... musty...

HAS ANYONE PISSED OFF A FAILED VJ SOFTWARE DEVELOPER LATELY?

"there IS a comparable professional market in the lightning industry with some superior hardware/software-products. the developers of this software are genious, comparable to the engineers of ferrari in formula one. however, somehow most VJs I know are too arrogant to get friends with this big players, thinking they could save the world if they fight against them."

businessman

7th July 2004, 05:27 AM

keep the spirit and the bubbles and be nice to each other. :love2:

asterix

7th July 2004, 05:43 AM

So Businessman - what was the name of the failed VJ software you developed and couldn't sell again??? hmmm... lemme see..
:wizard:

PS I think your message is a pathetic piece of shit, and my artform is as alive as the mushrooms spawning in your underwear.

Amukidi

7th July 2004, 07:45 AM

Bollocks.

Nema

7th July 2004, 07:53 AM

1) clubs don't like to pay VJs, they like to exploit them to the max.

sure,they are not interested in paying somebody but in selling drinks.

2) most VJs cheat: they use cracked software and ripped content. shame on you! time to become honestly and creative folks!

unfortunately that's what happened with visualJockey (where i was part of the development) too. however, those who use cracks would probably not have bought it anways... ...and, to be honestly, i also still use cracks of several softwares sometimes. :( so, how can i blame others?

3) most VJs work really hard but still they cannot produce satisfying shows. looking at what game-engines can do, the standard vj-software producers really are years behind in their technology.

so then why do you accuse the VJs?! it is the developers who must improve their engines. keep in mind that most VJ softwares have been developed out of pure enthousiasm without much business skills or big budgets by the developers themselves. considering the circumstances, VJ software developers deserve a lot of respect, even if they might cannot keep up with the professional game engines.

4) most equipments of VJs is ridiculous. VJs have a talent on spending all their money on useless expensive hardware-equipment (and use cheap cracked software, tsss!). don't know why, it seems it makes them feel good. but instead they could do everything with some advanced software (don't want to mention any specific here) and ONE clever add-on (e.g. a simple midi-faderbar).

i agree that a lot of money spent on hardware equipment should be invested into paying out the developers =) they could develop any hardware-emulation in software...

5) have a look at the car industry. [...]

funny that you mention formula 1.
as the car-industry is a very much developed industry, you can find many parallels to any other industry. formula 1 is the elite of the car-industry, and a lot of technology from formula 1 sooner or later finds its way to the cars we all use. concerning the vj mmarket, i think it is exactly the other way round: a lot of the research and technology done by the individuals is copied by bigger companies.

6) most developers of VJ-software sooner or later understand that it is impossible to make a living by developing and selling VJ software. those who did not want to give up completely are now part of the global player development teams... ...it is time to make friends with them!

everybody has to find its own mix between the freaky life of a VJ and the boring (?) life of a businessman. :D i personally shift more and more towards the business side too, but i would not like to miss the good old times as demoscener and VJ!:nod:

holly

7th July 2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by asterix
So Businessman - what was the name of the failed VJ software you developed and couldn't sell again??? hmmm... lemme see..
yes Asterix, you should win a prize. VideoJocky has died... RIP... Dumped by it's girlfriend and lost its apartment.... Read the VJo forums for all sorts of venting. Obviously this is some disgruntled programmer with delusions of formula 1 racing. And a bad sense of geography -- apparently Calif is somewhere in the Swiss Alps these days (and I thought the US had bad education). Whatever -- I still don't get the race car analogy. Guys are so weird.

"Software can emulate any piece of hardware"
Riiiight. Um, Excuse me a moment....
:lol: :haha: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

Maybe the Developers Forum should meet every wednesday for a self-esteem/self-help pep talk with juice and cookies. I have yet to meet a programmer who didn't think the world would be his oyster while developing the app, then crash and burn in a jealous fire-y ego heap once sales don't poor in and the business falls apart. Artists are the same way, so it's nothing special to the geek (ooh, I mean really sexy-cool race car driver) mindset. They have perscriptions for this sort of thing, don't they?

This is why I don't use software.

Nema

7th July 2004, 02:37 PM

VideoJocky has died... RIP...

errm, do you mean "visualJockey"?
i (as an ancient developer) am surprised myself that the vjo-community is still amazingly active, developing new plugins and stuff every day. "vjo gold" is in progress too. all in all, let's see how long vjo will survive. the good thing about it is that it no longer needs to generate a financial income to anybody. it is now (hopefully) a pieceful VJ software among others and i after all i have learned to denounce every kind of "we are better than other VJs". i know it took me quite long, and i am sorry about that.

concerning hardware-emulation: have a look at the sound hardware: a lot of ancient really expensive equipment is replaced by software. the trend with visuals go - imho- into the same direction.

holly

7th July 2004, 02:49 PM

Well, yes. In the future video emulators might be as common as audio today -- assuming VJing continues to be the next garageband guitar fantasy.

sleepytom

7th July 2004, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Nema

concerning hardware-emulation: have a look at the sound hardware: a lot of ancient really expensive equipment is replaced by software. the trend with visuals go - imho- into the same direction.

yeh yeh yeh - i have heard that abbey road have just replaced their Neve console with a laptop running reason!

dongbamage

7th July 2004, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by businessman
hi folks, time to tell the truth.

1) clubs don't like to pay VJs, they like to exploit them to the max.

Some not all, I have a residency that gives us 100% of the door money, ?100 for every ?1000 over the bar, a standard wage of ?250, and as much beer as we can drink (a lot ;))

Thats not so bad is it?

2) most VJs cheat: they use cracked software and ripped content. shame on you! time to become honestly and creative folks!

Yep and all those VJ's suck! What we need to do is bring to the attention of the clubs, the massive fines they could be sued for non licensed software. It'd be nice to have some kinda certificate thingy that says we're registered VJ's or something, maybe a VJ union? (Hmmmmm, Just ideas)

3) most VJs work really hard but still they cannot produce satisfying shows. looking at what game-engines can do, the standard vj-software producers really are years behind in their technology.

A satisfying show is born from good content not from the software, the VJ companies are some way behind but thats cos they don't have the funding and development time of say Half Life 2. Pixelshaders and so on are being implemented in various VJ softs its just gonna take a little while...

4) most equipments of VJs is ridiculous. VJs have a talent on spending all their money on useless expensive hardware-equipment (and use cheap cracked software, tsss!). don't know why, it seems it makes them feel good. but instead they could do everything with some advanced software (don't want to mention any specific here) and ONE clever add-on (e.g. a simple midi-faderbar).

I don't care what u say, I'd give my left nut for a nice video mixer.

5) have a look at the car industry. everybody admires and watches formula 1, but I guess no-one of you has a ferrari at home. you don't really think that your golf or mazda could keep up the formula 1 car from ferrary could keep up? there IS a comparable professional market in the lightning industry with some superior hardware/software-products. the developers of this software are genious, comparable to the engineers of ferrari in formula one. however, somehow most VJs I know are too arrogant to get friends with this big players, thinking they could save the world if they fight against them.

Car industry? Right...

6) most developers of VJ-software sooner or later understand that it is impossible to make a living by developing and selling VJ software. those who did not want to give up completely are now part of the global player development teams... ...it is time to make friends with them!

It will come...

Stuart

12th July 2004, 07:13 PM

as an aside,

I was into the MIDI thing when the DX7 Was brand new. PLayed with pro-tools when it was over 10K for 2 channels. Been doing the content creation thing in video for about a decade now. One thing that is quite clear is the evolution of the creation tools in the audio realm and the video realm are on vary parallel paths. Due to bandwidth and processing requirements the video tools realm is about 10-15 years behind audio.

As far as the abbey road argument goes...
well, you better believe they got themselves a bazillion track protools system next to the big neve (or ssl). That Analog console (with the obsolete flying faders) will be used to track the initial instrument recordings but after that event, more often than not, the shit is gonna hit the digital realm on the studios Mac (reason is a toy for DJs btw).

Used to be we combed stores looking for old 808s or 303s. Paid a mint for them if you found them too. Now you just buy the software for $150 bucks.

However, none of this matters. Only the results do and techniques in the hardware and software realm in Audio Engineering are required to get a full job done (all the computing power in the world won't help you if you can't properly mike and record the vocals).

Still, and I am quite new to the RT thing, I find the two channel paradim to be rediculous. I have seen folks in other threads, re:modul8, scrath their heads and ask why you need more than 'at most, 3 channels'. My aftereffects work, if you explode all the subs at peak moments in places, is two dozen plus layers deep. Is the marriage to A over B due to the hardware roots in this field?

[/end_ramble]

holly

12th July 2004, 07:59 PM

It's not really A over B. That is a possibility, but the lack of alpha channels really limits that idea of layering to very simple systems -- yes, it's a hardware constraint, but not as much as you would think. The "live thing" is really a lot more about time and tempo than layering and composition depth.

Everyone has really different techniques..., but you might combine elements that are meant to be more audioreactive in a foreground layer(s) to be swapped out, effected, and multiplied, while combining elements that are more constant or environmental in a "background" layer. Here, background doesn't necessarily mean like the un-animated background of a cel animation, but more like the background buzz of room ambience, or to use a musical metaphore: background is a steady rhythm line that you improvise foreground solos over.... You might not even show the foreground/background at the same time.... How seemless this works IS your skill as a VJ, but the idea would be to be able to control the perception of foreground/background so that at times it is very obvious that you are mixing 2 or more layers and at othertimes it seems as if a single track of video has miraculously been pre-edited to match the music.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Stuart

12th July 2004, 10:13 PM

a single track of video has miraculously been pre-edited to match the music.

that would be my goal

Stuart

12th July 2004, 10:14 PM

The "live thing" is really a lot more about time and tempo than layering and composition depth.

why not both?

asterix

12th July 2004, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by holly

Maybe the Developers Forum should meet every wednesday for a self-esteem/self-help pep talk with juice and cookies. I have yet to meet a programmer who didn't think the world would be his oyster while developing the app, then crash and burn in a jealous fire-y ego heap once sales don't poor in and the business falls apart. Artists are the same way, so it's nothing special to the geek (ooh, I mean really sexy-cool race car driver) mindset. They have perscriptions for this sort of thing, don't they?

'K Oath. DEVELOPERS UNITE! Give this man one piece of functional, pluggable, stable software rather than developing 50 other small projects and wondering why they don't perform on the market place.

murk

12th July 2004, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by holly
..VideoJocky has died... RIP... Dumped by it's girlfriend and lost its apartment.... Read the VJo forums for all sorts of venting. Obviously this is some disgruntled programmer with delusions of formula 1 racing. ..

Even though vJo development is officially done (with the exception of the Gold edition), it still can blow away most softs out there (even some of the new school stuff). I mean there have been over 30 free new plugins just in the last 3 weeks, with more on the horizon. vJo is a classic, that has a place in any VJs tool belt. It's like a '69 mustang, just because it ain't got the latest whiz bang gizmos, doesn't mean it ain't got balls.

And with the upcoming Quicktime controller and loop sequencer, vJo will be a player in the A/V sector as well.

I am constantly evaluating VJ softs (Resolume, Pilgrim, Modul8, vJo, Arkaos, VJamm etc) and they all have their place. The key is to know what each one brings to the table and when to use them.

many2

12th July 2004, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by murk

And with the upcoming Quicktime controller and loop sequencer, vJo will be a player in the A/V sector as well.

Big thanks Murk for developing the vJo AV Quicktime controller - with your help and all the other plugins coming from the vJo development community's programmers I can see vJo's future is still very bright :sun:

KillingFrenzy

13th July 2004, 04:59 AM

As to the Ferrari analogy;
As fun as Formula 1 racing is to watch... it really is a festering self-congratulatory cesspool of corporate sponsorship and cock-waving waste of time and energy. It certainly has nothing to do with art. Is our goal to be the Superbowl Jumbotron operators of the world?
Give me a dry erase marker and an overhead projector, and I bet I can get more reaction out of people than a $600,000 Barco and a set of Arkaos presets.
Where's this hidden secret/ answer to all our whoahs that we've somehow missed? Has everyone been sharing cracked versions of AfterEffects LIVE!, and I somehow missed out? It can't be visualJockey, since that's more like a Lotus without a steering wheel.
Show me the Money!

**note from morph... I didn't actually change anything, was jsut trying to get the direct post number for a link for another thread :)