Getting Paid gigs...

[nocturnal]

I'm sure alot of you have gone thorugh the same problem. Seems lots of promoters would like to have a VJ with 4 projectors and super-duper custom anims, but nobody wants to pay or at least not what they should be paying. To give you an example: Renting two Video Projectors in Canada about $600 plus mounting and running cables = time & money , plus your time for creative services I figure at least $500/night. Total comes to about $1200-1500 yet I see people here talkig about $150/night ??? Most promoters do not want to dish out that kind of money, many club owners who are making $$$$$$$$$$$$ every weekend and are known to dish out as much as $10K/night for a headline DJ do not see mere $1500 as worth their time. How do you convince promoters to hire you for what you ask for ? I'd be very interested in some success stories....

[MoRpH]

Patience, perseverance and it also helps to put them on the door @ another gig, that is packed and going off and your in top form and then they "just HAVE to have you" :D

[Amukidi]

Be patient - VJing is in its infancy (when compared to DJing) our time WILL come - just be sure you are there when it does.There are many international Fairs and conferences going round this year, soley designed to up the profile of Audio Visual performances. The word is being spread:D

[LEVLHED]

I had to do a weekly gig for free for a while before I started seeing any money from it.
it sucks, but thats the state of the field right now.

again, patience. hard work.

you HAVE to love this to do it.

and I agree, our time IS COMING.

[warpTV]

when we get asked for a budget - (gear and performance) - my first reply is its unlimited and they have to be more specific - but then I ask how many people are attending - then reply with a $3 (NZD) ($1.25USD???) per head is a suitable budget. and this they can comprehend much better when I explain the punter would pay $3 for visuals... And this seems to work.
ie 2000 people = $6000 for visual budget....($2500 USD) (gear and performance)

When it comes to 150 people attending they see the economics of it and scale down their expectations but we normally find a solution. For small events we make good use of televisons which is my preferred delivery anyway (no smoke machine problems and gets away from being so in your face etc). You would be surprised at how good a couple of VDAssending to alot of televisions look (obviously not so good for outdoor events though) and you have alot of installation options and can rearrange them so it always looks different.

For example once we used a combination of
3x40" rear pro TV
5x29" TV
4x25" TV
2x14" TV
+ half a video wall 3x2 (6)- 29"TVs (matrix switch was on another hire)

this was in a club that could hold about 700 people and looked fantastic.

whoops off topic.....

:D

[LEVLHED]

20 tvs?
...uggh...
that sounds too much like work!

it must have looked sweet, though.

[spark]

morph is right, if the right people see you rocking it, it will happen. but there is no magic payback, and don't believe that everything will be rosy when 'the scene' matures: if you want it to pay you have to work at it from stage one. be aware of the difference between opportunities to build the scene and opportunities to be the scene. one is for friends and communal effort away from the spotlight. the other has to exist in a viable world; visualists need to get paid, promoters need to respect their contribution. be *very* careful about not mixing the two, otherwise when you do get picked up you'll find its even worse: you're in just as much financial shit just on a bigger scale and effectively subsidising the branding of someone else's affair. More importantly the scene takes another lurch towards maintaining todays status-quo and not building the bright scene we all hope for.

so... always ask proper money, if the promoter doesn't pay then sod them. seriously. if you want or need to work for free, make sure its on something worthwhile with nice people, focus on it and make it take you all somewhere.

[spark]

with the sermon over, two suggestions:

build up a relationship with promoters - get a residency. explore other options to straight pay: promoters are reluctanct to give you a raise so you can buy more beer, get them involved with paying to enhance your visuals, ie equipment/software/media etc

develop a better package than visuals - bass and music makes me dance, a videoscreen doesn't. it will always be secondary, however slight. so develop a package. go live PA with music people / work with a band / explore more visually literate arenas like theatre.

[MoRpH]

Hmmm breaking it down intoa per punter amount could be very good, watch out though cause if they don't get the numbers they could then scale back you pay relative to numbers

[LEVLHED]

The trick is to get them in "hype" mode and get them to say what they are HOPING to get through the door, then hold them to it. No matter the turn out, you're still giving them their moneys worth.

[warpTV]

obviously you would use a contract........

IF you dont I recommmend you do

[MoRpH]

Yeah I'm moving on to get a solid contract happening @ the moment, currently using the HTG one that turned up on eyecandy... anyone else got a contract example we could all look @.... please pop it into a new thread here in the business forum... cheers

[DocSavage]

Realistically you can't make much money on this side of the ocean unless you own your own equipment, or it's a Huuuuuuuuge party.

I'm already working on 'bundling' my services with a few live PAs from around the area. Probably going on a mini-tour of Quebec next month to VJ only with that set act for the cost of transpo. If they want the visuals running all night they gotta ante up :-)

Although I agree that undervaluing VJ services is a bad thing, I've recognized that the hard part is getting your foot in the door. Once you have it in there, you're in a much better place to ask for what you really deserve.

[nocturnal]

Thanks for all your replies. Some interesting ideas there such as per/head count , I like that one. I wasn't really coming off to rant just looking at the reality of the "business" as it is. Another way of getting paid would to to schmooze a big sponsor and have them cover the cost and then EVERY event would love to have you. I don't believe doing any work for free or cost of equipment/travel is a good idea, because once you do it for free everyone will expect you will do the same for the "next guy" and they will not value your work as much. Some of you had mentioned that VJ stuff is just starting off, well don't fool your-selves, I have initially started doing this 6 years ago, and after 2 years of doing work basically for free I decided it was time to let it go and let the clientele "mature" a bit to appreciate video work. Well guess what, now I am back after a long break and I find the "scene" and the "clients" in much the same state as it was 6 years ago. Sure the technology advanced and now costs 1/10 of what it used to for good gear but so what, as someone mentioned, visuals will always be secondary and considered as such by the promoter. One thing i learned in marketing is that if a market does not exists , you can always "create" a market and the need for your service. As much as I thought this was true in the business world I have yet to prove this theory in the VJ biz. I think the reality is that if someone is doing this for their events it is usually in-house stuff with their own gear. Sure I would love to see the day when a VJ will be $10K headliner and DJ's would be secondary, but that may be a long long long way to get there...

[MoRpH]

Screw the DJ being secondary, I'm just looking forward to when a DJ and VJ can co-headline and work together to create a proper/equal show :)

[spark]

amen to that. we all get caught in the buzz, but there is a reality behind the scene and you have just nailed it through your history. and its not just you undercutting yourself down the line, its holding the whole scene back...

and hey, get that sponsorship and don't tell any promoter. that is how to get visuals to pay!

[LEVLHED]

I think in order for that to happen, the VJ has to come up with the DJ, they need to be considered a set team, a cohesive act..
I think getting hooked up with a liveP.A./band would be the best choice......midi-sync possibilites.....

And you're right, nocturnal. The scene really hasn't matured at all as a business. Its because this is largely a youth culture? I remember 6 years ago thinking "when all these kids grow up and get to be 21 (legal drinking age in U.S.) its going to blow up as far as venues/getting gigs/etc" Well guess what, I'm still waiting....

[MoRpH]

I find most corperate sponsorship blows cause they always want to much screen time/bugs/etc.....

[Amukidi]

I take it you boys/girls are familiar with the work of Hexstatic? They come as a complete package and are said to be stunning live. Check out the "Rewind" album (cool cover with a ZX80 or 81 on it! Loads of AV stuff on it too.

[LEVLHED]

Last night at my 80's DJ gig I realized I've sold my soul to the worst "corporate sponser" I can think of.
I do a video thing @ the same bar on thursday nights, just saw they have a nice new banner up.
www.levlhed.com/LEVsole.mpg 1.62mb

I don't even drink.....

[djvivid]

I've worked for a long time at increasing prices promotors will pay.. I've fallen out with dance promoters many times because of this... and eventualy I've always been hired back. The problem is budgets.. theres not as much profit in dance events as you would imagine from working out head counts and ticket prices. Many events will make a loss even with half decent sales.

A formular I have come up with when replying to a quote request is to individualy price everything as an AV company would..

use AV Hire prices..(some add a percentage to this, i don't.. but if you can hire the gear cheaper from a local sympathetic AV company who may even do a cash deal then you can squeeze extra profit)

Add your costs to this... like travel
then add your time.. this is your offical profit... and how much your saying your time is worth.. remember.. you are paying for computer upgrades.. cables... rigging gear... even gaffer tape..

your going to have an itemised quote for a lot more than the promoter is going to agree to (in experience), so you come up with a discounted special price just for them..

e.g..

Screens 2 x 12 foot easy erect screens @60 =?120
LCD 2 x 2500 ansi lumen @180 =?180
MX50 video mixing desk @ 200 =?200
Video Decks x 2 @20 =?40
CGI workstations x 2 @ 200 =?400
Static video camera x 2@20 =?40
Remote controlled cam @ 100 =?100
Custom generated visuals =?200
Live vj mixing throughout event =?300
Professional rigging and transit = $150

so you see.. it adds up sharply...
but you can get screens for ?30-40, 2500 ansi lcd's for ?100-?150, mixing decks are best to buy or have on a buy lease basis..
and you can knock a lot of the rigging and your own time costs and show a special one off price of about ?1000

You could buy/lease your own lcd's also.. and screens..
I would not suggest this is a good idea.. the bulbs for LCD's are fragile.. and cost from ?250 to about ?500.. it only takes one moronic security staff to kill your power and its time to replace the bulbs. Also if you blow a board or damage a ribbon cable your going to shriek when you find out how much replacements are.. an hire company will absorb this.. but you would have to find this yourself if you owned the projector. Also.. buying screens can be a burden also if your going to do more than one residency.. almost every event I do has a different screen requirment.. 12 or 13 foot screens will do most large arenas... but almost all the weekly clubs have no room for anything other than small screens. of 6-9 foot. For outdoor events or very large arena events I will go upto 30 foot (10 meter) screens.. but I doubt there would be much need for that more than once or twice a year if your very lucky.

I hope this gives you an insight and not just confused you!

[innathort]

first off i'd like to say thanx to all who post here, this has been a great resource for me as a somewhat newbie in the VJ world.

i guess this post relates to most of what has been discussed here, not necessarily answers, but my experiences so far:

me and my crew (sign systems - a kat-fu production is i , D'Compressor, Ogre B {former EBN member - yes really} and the G.),
in reference to a comment made earlier in this thread, are a DJ/VJ collaborative and put our own show on once a month at a club in town and also throw a party or two/art openings etc when we can.

because its really hard to make any kind of money doing the underground stuff, we broke down and recently scored a weekly gig at a club in my town (providence, RI - usa); talking money was definately not the easiest thing i've ever done, it seems incredibly difficult to convince people the power that visuals can have. but we scored regardless. its a college town so at the moment the numbers aren't high which is why i settled for less, but come september... re-negotiations !!

we are getting $250 US for three total hours of performance (i really wanted 300, 100 per hour performance + 25 for each additional onsite projector and come september i'll get it i hope - we bring in the majority of equipment, but part of our deal is they are starting to buy their own projectors and screens and we come up/consult on new innovative ways to use them. of course i do worry that the more they buy, the closer we are to losing the gig (replaced by VHS).__has this happened to anyone?

we are not under any contract except verbally and this i don't like - i'd be very interested in that VJ contract that was mentioned here too if anyone has a link to it

when it comes down to it, its a great experience and being paid even a little for something we love to do is worth it, right?

i'm not sure how far it will go at this gig (i'm not a huge fan of the cheesey music being played there for one - my crew wrecks the 2step, breaks and drum&bass scene - a tough sell to kids that think "Dirty Vegas" kicks ass!! ?television ravers? ) but am hopiing for it to lead to other things.

well as i said, no answers really, just a little experience - would love some feedback

thanx again to all here - i hope the community gets strong and we get what we deserve one day.

peace

d'compressor

[Phase1]

I am a vj for 12 years now and finaly i get wat i want.

Vj is a way of live and you do not only do it for the money
but be patience if you are good people want to pay.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
Last night at my 80's DJ gig I realized I've sold my soul to the worst "corporate sponser" I can think of.
I do a video thing @ the same bar on thursday nights, just saw they have a nice new banner up.
www.levlhed.com/LEVsole.mpg 1.62mb

I don't even drink.....

heh heh "this buds for you"

[LarryLightshow]

I have found hooking up with a musical act to be a killer way of getting paid and getting RESPECT as an artist . Last year I hooked up with Drum and Bass act Phree Nugz and through that have been able to play at some of the biggest events in NYC..
Now I'm about to hit the road on tour with The Kottonmouth Kings
as resident VJ on many of their shows....
Look in the past decade DJ's have become a main part of many rock bands ..now is the time for VJs to do the same..

[konsumgrafik]

wise words.... that?s the way it needs to go and btw it?s a nice and funny way.:cool:

[disassembler]

Originally posted by LarryLightshow
I have found hooking up with a musical act to be a killer way of getting paid and getting RESPECT as an artist . Last year I hooked up with Drum and Bass act Phree Nugz and through that have been able to play at some of the biggest events in NYC..
Now I'm about to hit the road on tour with The Kottonmouth Kings
as resident VJ on many of their shows....
Look in the past decade DJ's have become a main part of many rock bands ..now is the time for VJs to do the same..

Haha ha.

Phree Nugz and Kottonmouth Kings. Next in the line up will be Koral Reefer.. or better yet Weed the People.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D