DIY or artform? Which direction should we promote?

[holly]

With the maturing of the online visuals scene, and the recent discussions of a VJ magazine and other info formats, I'd like to bring up a touchy subject: should we continue to promote the image of DIY "anybody can VJ, just grab a laptop"..., or should we begin to promote VJing as an emerging artform and scene with accomplished works that can't be replicated by amatures at home with a "just-bought" image library?

I think it's obvious where I stand on the issue, but I'd really like to set out the ol barometer and get a reading on the scene's vibe:

PLEASE vote in MORE THAN ONE CATAGORY!

[alangeering]

Last night I almost decided I hated visuals.

I just saw the living room, arranged so all the seats pointed at the TV.

I then thought about all the other living rooms I've been in this month, and the focus was always the TV.

It was terrible. I wanted to throw away my video equipment and never make anything again that would tie people to screens.

I've decided that when I have a house of my own I'm giong to have a TV on a trolly, it can be wheeled into the room when we need it. For the rest of the time it can sit under the stairs.

Living rooms are for living. TVs are for dead souls.





Eventually I had some food and calmed down. Turned on the TV, nothing interesting, switched to another channel, nothing, another... there was nothing interesting, but I watched anyway. There had to be someone to share my dinner with.

[holly]

Alan, you obviously need the Hillsborough Television with New Hideaway Styling!

http://movies02-bu.archive.org/2/movies/Hillsbor1959/Hillsbor1959.thumbs/Hillsbor1959_00003000.jpg http://movies02-bu.archive.org/2/movies/Hillsbor1959/Hillsbor1959.thumbs/Hillsbor1959_00010000.jpg http://movies02-bu.archive.org/2/movies/Hillsbor1959/Hillsbor1959.thumbs/Hillsbor1959_00013000.jpg http://movies02-bu.archive.org/2/movies/Hillsbor1959/Hillsbor1959.thumbs/Hillsbor1959_00020000.jpg
footage courtesy of the Prellinger Archive (http://www.archive.org/movies/details-db.php?collection=prelinger&collectionid=08447).

[neoteo]

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A strong scene means establishing styles, standardizing tools, and showing recognizable content from visual-releasing labels.
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i say do it all , help the newbies and promote VJing as an emerging artform and scene with accomplished works that can't be replicated by amatures at home with a "just-bought" image library

its more then time to make the diference

who is the best vj in the world ? why ?

[many2]

The most important problem in the VJ scene (at least from my perspective) is that there has been so many poor and ugly and amateurish VJ performances that as soon as you speak "VJ" producers think they'll have more of the same tasteless video pizza. Here in Montreal I have heard this little sentence too many times : "Oh, you are a VJ. Yes I know what it is. I am sorry but I don't like VJing, it's just random stuff thrown at the screen." I would like to tell them they are wrong but they are not : most of the time all you've got as a VJ is a pseudo-artist playing ping-pong with random loops or poorly-shot DV footage from his last trip in some foreign country. If that's what people wanted to see then they would simply stay home and watch the "Travel Channel" or zap through TV channels randomly. Each time I see visuals completely unrelated to the music, the event, the atmosphere, the other performers (DJs, bands, LJ, dancers, etc.), I understand it's only going to get harder and harder to explain what a real visual show is the next time I deal with a producer.

I have seen very good visuals done DIY style. I have seen very poor performances by people thinking they are professionnal artists.

I think DIY is more of a budget matter than anything else. When you don't have a budget you Do It Yourself. When you have a budget you hire people with specialized skills and you use your own skills to do whatever you are good at.

What should we promote ? Good looking visuals, innovative integration of video, artistic projects by people with a vision. Do I care if they have a big budget or if they do it all by themselves ? Not at all.

[kallisti]

some thoughts...

pretty much everybody gets into the scene via the DIY route... there really isn't that much money in the scene for someone to get into it any other way. we can provide tons of info on how to technically arrange your rig and setup, but there is no way to give step by step instructions on how to create interesting meaningful content. it's all gonna come down to someone's creativity and love of the artform. buying content is like going to the store and buying a poster to hang on your wall; yeah it looks nice, but it's never going to be an original piece of artwork. give the noobz some technical advice and everything else will work itself out. talent and creativity will rise to the top eventually.

as far as the "living room" tangent goes... as much as i love visuals and videos, too much of our culture is dedicated to the passive consumption that tv ideolizes..
unfortunately, i don't think this will ever change except through thousands of people making individual choices to take their lives back. for me, it started by turning the volume off on the tv. it's amazing how much of a difference that makes. free from distractions aside from a disconnected image, i find it alot easier to spend my time making music and video, and whatever other crazy creative life-affirming projects i choose to take on.

it all starts inside YOU. you make your choices.

[Esotic]

I would first off like to state that was just in a foreign country (for the first time) and shot like 8 hours of video while I was there. I fully plan to cull some video loops from this content, but thanks for the advice on how to not bore people with it. I am also guilty of presenting what most VJs would (probably) consider psychedelic. I like extreme color and I sometimes push right up to imperceptible.

I think the best thing we can do to further our subculture is to spend time refining the artform in any way possible. Either by finding new video sources, working on our skills at massaging those pieces together, or creating new software that allows us the level of control we need to achieve brilliance and efficacy.

We've all been raised in a culture seeped in video. MTV, movies, sit-coms, made for TV special, commercials, etc. What we do may or may not be in the same vein as what has come before. Are you VJing as accompaniment to a live band or DJ (which is primarily what I do)? Are you documenting the event as much as you are adding to the vibe? Do you VDJ by mixing and creating music videos? Do you respond to the audience? Do you produce your shows in the studio and then present the finished content?

Telling a story is nice, but art doesn't always have to tell a story. Some things are beautiful and engaging just because they are. I.E. what is the purpose of a daisy? What makes it appeal to you (or not)?

I would love to incorporate some deeper levels into what I present, but at the same time I "perform" 4-5 hours at a time. Usually what ends up happening is I constantly try to ride the wave of rythm and self-hipnosis, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, but the quality does seem to be getting better with time. I love VJTV cuz it gives me a chance to see what others are doing (but I still wish the quality was better). I don't think I really get to experience the best of what my peers are offering to the world and sometimes that makes me sad. );

Express yourself. Help others find ways to express themselves. Help yourself and others understand the world more completely. Enjoy what you are doing and be sincere when you communicate, even if all you are sincere about is having a good time.

I would also suggest working with other artists as much as possible. This includes ideating/organizing/design time as well as on stage.

Or not, it's completely up to you.

Get your eyegasm on,

-Esotic

[many2]

I have nothing against footage shot in foreign countries nor against psychedelic footage - I am just so tired of poorly shot footage and random clips, wherever they might have been shot. It just happen that a lot of VJs think being in an exoctic place and pressing the recording button is enough to carry the deep feelings they have during their trip. I also know some VJs around here who have very nice footage from all around the world but it's not because they had a camera, it's because there is an idea behind the footage, there is a style, you can feel the use of lighting, of movement, of composition, of colors, of focus, etc. You don't need to have a story if you don't want to, but please have some style ;)

This leads me to ask what is the opposition between DIY and Artform ? In my head, both concepts fit together very well. Isn't Leonardo Da Vincy an icon of both arts and the DIY attitude ? He managed to create masterpieces all by himself using primitive ressources. He creatively used technology. But even in his medical drawings you can feel he had some style !

[apu]

Holly

I guess I believe in/have faith in the theory that we are all in the same scene one way or another, that is kind of like a boiling/melting pot. Even locally and globally if you operate at that level

The ones that are genuine in their passion for VJ'ing (whatever form it comes in), hopefully will go further and further and reach massive heights within themselves/the scene and filter higher into the scene whether its the music/club industry or art industry.

If a VJ sucks then they probably/hopefully should not get booked. If they stoke the DJ's, the promoters, the crowd and themselves, then things should go further.

Ya gotta really work at it. It doensn't come your way without doing the biz for the right people and being on form etc etc etc

I am not saying that the scene will be perfectly balanced (look at the world we live in) but surely in the long run it will look after itself as everyone learns about what works and what doesn't and people try to give it a go and fail/succeed. Come n go.

It should do that yeah?

Change is always with us and I guess it helps keep things ticking along, bubbling away.............

Do we need to force the direction or do we leave it sort it self out??

[holly]

Originally posted by many2
This leads me to ask what is the opposition between DIY and Artform ? In my head, both concepts fit together very well.
You are right Many2. I should have said "HOW TO" instead of DIY. The question: Has the media focused too much on the "HOW TO" aspects of VJing and not enough on actual artists and performances. This issue may be regional, because ALL the media attention I've seen here has been of the "grab a laptop and you too can be a VJ", with absolutely NO consideration of talent, craft, effort, etc.

DaVinci was certainly an innovator, but I guess I was using the term DIY in the TIME/LIFE SELF-HELP SERIES OF DO-IT-YOURSELF HOME REPAIR sense of the word. Colorful brochures and step-by-step diagrams might help you squeeze out a simple project, but it can never make you a carpenter.... Thanks for helping me redefine.

Here on VJf conversations about technical issues tend to be straight up with links and plain/simple answers. Artistic discussions tend to be -- well -- all over the place using terms like "well-shot footage" or "use your imagination".... These statements aren't self-defining. A person really doesn't know if he's got boring travel footage of his last vacation or something exotic exciting and rare! That's the problem. When we discuss facts (or should I say FAQS) we are giving out simplified information. OVER-simplified information really. So some some people read a FAQ and App-list on the web or in a magazine and think this must be simple -- you know, grab a copy of Arkaos and you are done! WE know that isn't even half the truth, but we keep saying it is.... Probably because it's much easier to talk in simple terms and straight answers about minor technical details (codecs/cables), problems that have simple straight answers, while the real art can be discussed but really needs to be experienced before it can be analyzed or understood. Experiencing the VJ set is something we really haven't been able to accomplish on-line yet, so those discussions that are what I would call more than 50% of VJing -- the art of VJing if you will, are extremely difficult to define, and therefore difficult to pass on as simplified knowledge in a FAQ -- or even in a magazine article short enough to read during the average trip to the toilet.

I mean, how many times do we list a "don't do this" clich? only to have it immediately followed by a disclaimer that states "actually you can do it if you do it well".... Eh? We're all guilty of that! I think we sometimes sabotage the real meaty discussion with unclear messages that are often self-defeating. How we get around this, I don't know.

One interesting part of the poll shows that no one wants to glorify individual artists (high votes on the "no artist egos" question), but at the same time we are somehow supposed to promote established works from visual labels (equally high votes on the "common format, from labels" question). How do we promote excellence within the scene without giving a nod to those who are being excellent? How do we define and learn what is "well shot" vacation footage if we are not supposed to stroke the egos of anyone who does it right?

[seex]

Well put Holly, i thing you pointed to some important issues.

In my oppinion the comunity shuld strive to unity, and that means qality of work, there shuld be comonly points of qality and of coures also of bad work. These koncepts shuld be simple and understandable. Like i heard and read so many definitons on what art shuld be but was only persuaded by a very simple one by Jan ?mok a czech professor at FAMU "Art must express what can not be expressed any other way". So i stick to this, and i think that for a newbee such statements can give better direction and understanding. So im in for defining cliches and films we all sampled as this can be a good orientation in to what is expected and what is a no no.

Our art form is still very new, and i imagine that someday there will be lods of original material avalable to buy, with instructions no how to use it (like decks in resolume). That wuld definetly speed up the learning process of a newbee.

At the moment i think its important to have some kind of unity in terms of prices (that goes especialy for big citys where there is a lot of competition), also there must be a price list that defines a fee for custom made visuals than original material and that the low price angle for sampled footige, maybe one more for a mix of original and sampled. this wuld give promotors some idea of what to expect when hiering a vj. Of course it wuld be great to have an organ (syndicate) that takes care of this legaly, Like we all must be a member of this organ in order to work as vj-s. And anyone hiering someone who is not a member can be fined, as can be vjs who who cut down prices.

[Esotic]

First off, I would like to share that I made the front page at http://www.engrish.com/

:D

Secondly, I would like to suggest that we all start sharing samples of our works online through the Direct Connect VJ Art hub (timedivision.no-ip.info). DC++ is quite easy to setup and use, and with broadband connections it's not so bad shuffling big files around. Especially if we all help share each others bits.

Ya Down With OPP2P,

-Esotic

[Amukidi]

"One interesting part of the poll shows that no one wants to glorify individual artists (high votes on the "no artist egos" question), but at the same time we are somehow supposed to promote established works from visual labels (equally high votes on the "common format, from labels" question). How do we promote excellence within the scene without giving a nod to those who are being excellent?"
http://www.jamesshuggins.com/i/web1/hammer_and_nail.jpg

Excellent point Holly, but......
Some home truths to be swallowed first;)

[Esotic]

I'm guessing that the word "glorify" may be offputting to some.

It's totally possible to recognize excellence from the creme de la creme and create a showreel featuring lots of excellent works from a variety of visual artists without creating "VJ Superstar" personas. I occasionally buy the AV:X vids (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005UBKI/102-7987571-5898537?v=glance) or some other DJ/VJ DVD to see what's up. Anybody here been on those? I'd love to get footage from VJF posters to put together a showreel for distribution (I prefer P2P, obviously).

Although I can't see how VJ Superstars can be stopped. At some point it's bound to happen. Especially from the VDJ sect. Or maybe from a VJ/DJ team.

Anyone seen the band Sinch? There were on TechTV the other day, and while the gear was pretty cool I wasn't blown away by the material. But I think that sort of thing will get more common. I have a DJ that's my primary partner and we've been able to illicit a certain level of interest from the community. Not that I'm a VJ Superstar (or want to be).

Links to Sinch and the "Viditar"
http://www.sinch.net/onm/index.shtml

I am really encouraged by the sense of camaraderie that pervades the posts.

I Heart You Guys (and Gals),

-Esotic

[many2]

Thanks a lot for explaining what you exactly meant as DIY, now I understand.

In fact, we can break this down to Art Vs Technical Expertise.

The forums here are made for VJs by VJs, so I think it's a good place to talk about technical problems.

When promoting our Artform then I think we should not talk too much about the technical aspects and really focus on the art side. Newbie VJs have a hard time understanding even simple technical advice, so one can imagine how bored ordinary people would be reading technical chit-chat about the latest VJ stuff. But where can we promote VJing beside our shows ? How ? I am all for talking more about the artistic side of things, but where can we do it if we want to be heard by non-vjs ?

Think about cinema : when you read about a film the critic might talk about the special effects but they'll never tell you things like "this was prerendered using special renderman shaders to do parralax-pixel mapping". They'll talk about the result of the technic, about its integration in the whole film, about its relevance in the context of the story, and about the budget but that's another story ;) (why are films rated by the amount of money they make ?)

Many-2

[seex]

Arty or technical, visuals are here for a reason, to help the visitors enjoj the party as a whole. I see myself as a profesional who works for the public that has expecations. And i believe there is nothing more i can do than help someone live this expectations. Art is not so space and event related, i mean for a good av act we need a public prefrably in a hypnotic state. But in art there shuld be no limitations whereas a vj in a bad mood can qickly send a croud of people home, and he made his atistis statement but did he adchieve what he meant to. A galery is a much wider space than a club, to a club people come for more or less the same reason whilst in a gallery there are very different expectatons, people come there for intelectual stimulation and must shuld stay openminded. On a party it either works or it dosent, they dance or they dont.

So im for a professional aproach, i serve my customers, they came to relax to dance to go crazy and there is not much we can do about that. There is a tecnical issue here as well, i mean a dj culd decide to blow out everyones ear drums, the qestion is how many of us wuld apriciate this as his artistic statemnet, so our work also bring responsibility. And how responsibele is this artist kulik (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.art-data.ru/gif/kulik/new/foto-journal.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.art-data.ru/artists-e/kulik-bibliografy.htm&h=349&w=292&sz=53&tbnid=_Wa4YoqIrUwJ:&tbnh=115&tbnw=97&start=6&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkulik%2Bartist%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie %3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG)

[neoteo]

0.02 cents

i think one can not live with out the other

Art is dificult the define , what i think is art , is what makes you feel something near to what you feel when looking at/feeling nature.
its as a natural feeling.

natural , can be diferent from person to person depending on life path.

but as humans there is a basic sense of natural.

when we do art , we are doing a representation of the real with our life path filter.

as practice leads to perfect , Technical Expertise can go to 2nd plan if you can do it with out thinking , like walking.

only then you will be free to just do art

[PilotX]

Originally posted by holly
One interesting part of the poll shows that no one wants to glorify individual artists (high votes on the "no artist egos" question), but at the same time we are somehow supposed to promote established works from visual labels (equally high votes on the "common format, from labels" question). How do we promote excellence within the scene without giving a nod to those who are being excellent?

it is interesting, and I voted for all three mentioned - how do I square this? simple - I don't detach the art from the artist. if the artist is an overblown egomaniac, then I don't (really) respect the art.. I don't know how eyewash works, but at zoetrope we will seek to avoid booking people who have an ego, no matter the quality of their work becuase we don't want to work with these people - too much trouble imo. Of course I am looking at one end of egoism, and there is much in between, a slight ego is perhaps necessary to promote yourself properly if nothing else.. but it is perfectly possible for an artist to be well respected/recognized and modest..
Also, I kinda think that an ego is a misplaced sense of your own worth/skill .. by voting no artist egos, I was also saying that if an artist produces something poor, whatever their previous work, you don't stoke thier ego by saying that its really good..
It ain't about not giving the nod, it's about giving the nod for the right reasons, and shaking your head when its right to do so.

[Amukidi]

Nicely put Tom. It is a fine balance between ego (or percieved ego) and even the best, most experienced artists are capable of putting out shit! Over the last couple of months, I've viewed many demos for the Big Chill, and its been an amazing learning experience. My instincts in judging work have remained the same, but I've been made so aware of the difference between VJs who have a raison d'etre, for want of a better expression - and those who are doing it for more light-hearted reasons. Somebody posted a question on the Big Chill forum the other day, regarding "Artistic Excellence" and how to define it! After many years of both trying to achieve it, and trying to teach others how to, I still couldn't sit down and give anyone a simple definition - I just know instinctively what it means to me. I've come to the conclusion that it is one of those phenomena that sits within our concsiousness - some people are born with it, and some develop it within their own creative environment - whatever that may be.
I've selected VJs from both ends of the spectrum, from household names through to total novices - the bottom line for me is that we can all learn from each other - a really experienced pro would be foolish to ignore the chance to see the work of a total novice who is producing exquisite footage. My jaw has hit the deck more than once, looking at someone's work, who's only done 3 real gigs! Similarly - I've been most underwhelmed by demos from seasoned regulars.
There is so much to achieve in this field - don't settle for second best.

[djnada]

SEEX wrote:
A gallery is a much wider space than a club, to a club people come for more or less the same reason whilst in a gallery there are very different expectatons, people come there for intellectual stimulation and must should stay openminded.

As this thread is concerned with DIY and artistic concerns, I've got to tell you that scads could be written here, but I'll spare you. As I've said in previous posts, I've shown "video art" in galleries and in various night clubs in New York, especially during the 1980s. What I tried to achieve was to use abstract and concrete imagery and sound to elicit feelings,emotions, responses in the audience. For example, several rooms adjoining each other, each room with a particular visual and aural "ambience." As you walk from room to room, these ambiences overlap. One would like to get an EEG or pulse rate reading from the audience as they moved through these emotive states. Finally, to me it's all DIY, thanks, Holly, for clarifying the context of this, 'cause it kinda scared me off the thread at the beginning. We are living in a revolution where access to the "means of cultural production" are available to many people. How these tools are used is, I think, the question. - C- Monster ps - on "ego." You've got to believe in yourself, regardless of what people may think,or you ain't gonna get nuthin' done! Stick to your vision!

[Amukidi]

"How these tools are used is, I think, the question."

Too true - I've booked a handfull of VJs who fit more into the "Video art" category this year. I'll be fascinated to see and hear the reaction from the paying public, but this diversity is to be celebrated and put to good use.

[seex]

Since were trying to define a category in wich to fit visuals i decidet that i consider my work a craft more than an art form. I consider myself as such since im serving the needs that my audeance expresses just by coming to our events, i consider this need as one of the basic needs that a human being has trough art history and was always present. Be it as a ancent ritual or as a massive party of these days. I can be so clear about this since i also work with art as a photographer and i know that i take a diferent approach. I aslo dont think that this diference ic compromising my vision, i set out to adciheve something, get the message trough.

[djnada]

It is useful to use words like "cultural production" (Pierre Bourdieu The Field of Cultural Production, The Rules of Art, On Television) to avoid redundant disagreements over definitions of "art" versus "craft." Many of the scrap metal sculptors I know distain the term "artist" for associations they may have with that term. Fine. They are still producing something that influences how people think and what they do (culture).

[holly]

The "ego" issue bothers me, I guess. It is another part that is poorly defined and I think maybe it is a loaded term. When I started doing video and dance/theater I was strictly a techgeek. I had absolutely no interest in performance and even less interest in appearing onstage with the rest of my company (the real performers). Then frida kahlo, cindy sherman, and ohmigod Mariko Mori, and I knew what I had to do:
http://www.wetcircuit.com/VJf/mariko_mori.jpg

This was a really hard thing for me -- put myself in my work. As a dance company we had always hired professional performers who had training and experience. It was kinda ridiculous that I would be in front of the camera, but my opinion had been changed about what was expected from female artists and I was determined to learn it. Well, 2 years later and about 60% of my work uses my body as subject. You can imagine that as a VJ and the local VJ scene maybe has only one other female VJ that uses herself (and you know, practicality dictates that you can't just hire a female dancer/model for $$$ so you use yourself), and it is in sharp contrast to the usual bouncing squares and abstract murk and cut'n'clip of the VJ scene. I've had more than one VJ assume this is about my need for attention -- my EGO -- instead of fitting in a contemporary artist movement....

I've also seen accusations of "big ego diva" thrown at Kriel, Micah Klein, and other successful VJs, and shortly after joining here I was written by Kriel and honestly did not perceive him as a big ego. I think a LOT of those accusations were immature jealousy. I haven't met these people personally, but I still don't think this is an ego issue, I think it's petty and sad really. There is an anti-success element on these forums which I think might stem from the geeks' need for anonymity -- keep your head down and bullies won't hit you.... This isn't high school. This is my art. It's really not important to me if other VJs think I'm trying to show footage of myself because I have such a big ego. The typical geek (and let's face it, VJs as a group are pretty geeky and I include myself wholeheartedly in that) comes from a bit of a defeated ego, at least an inward ego. Putting myself onscreen was painfully hard but as with every discipline it gets easier and better with time and experience.... But my point is, just from my art I'm presumed to have a big ego because (in my opinion) some guys just aren't familiar with the female artists I'm working in the shadow of. That's their lack of awareness, not my ego.

At Eyewash we haven't really talked in terms of excluding someone because of "ego". We had Ben Niell play and he has recording contracts and VW ads on TV right now and I felt he was so nice and very without ego. He also brought in a large crowd following. If we had cut him out because of his success level it would have been our stupidity. Now... the ones that we have not asked back are the ones who have been "difficult" -- demanded too much, special music, special placement on the floor, too many technical needs (and why are these the same people who can't get the video to come out their second monitor?!) -- no one sits there and demands top billing or their name to be printed big (I assume that type wouldn't bother to do Eyewash), but the ones we don't ask back aren't about "ego", it's about being "too difficult" and at the same time not being gracious for the extra help and attention we are forced to give.

I personally think the VJ scene could use a few egos and larger-than-life personalities so people outside the scene have an anchor, a Moby to get them interested. Doesn't necessarily mean they should be excluded just because they are recognized names. I understand what you mean tho, there are a few egs who discover that Eyewash is about a scene, not about them, and they never bothered to come back unless they were trying to promote new software or a new video instrument they built. We don't exclude them on that basis tho. Pushing a product is still a part of the scene.... I don't want to censor what I don't like (or personally feel is a little cold), I want to add any elements that are possibly missing.

[Rovastar]

Most artforms the leading artists have an element of ego about them.

But is this about big ego. Some may think I have a big ego *shrug* I know in PM's and posts such has been suggested.

What is ego. On your own website saying I am the No1 VJ? Getting press top quote as such a la Charles Kriel. Charles on the times I meet him is reasonably down to earth.

Is it to do with fame. There are only a handful of VJ's

Is it wanting to be top of the billing on a flyer. There have been occasions at VJ heavyevents where certain VJ's want to be top on the flyer list or play in the 'best' slot.

The word ego is too easily throw around too much. If you critsize/give advice about someones work you have a big ego?
Marketing yourself is that an ego?

If someone claims they are good/besty as visuals in a current feild maybe and they are petty damn good is that an ego. If they bad surely tha is where the ego comes into play.

In fact the only VJ I can think with an overly large ego is 2012FX. Even **** didbn't come close to that. :)

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by holly

One interesting part of the poll shows that no one wants to glorify individual artists (high votes on the "no artist egos" question), but at the same time we are somehow supposed to promote established works from visual labels (equally high votes on the "common format, from labels" question). How do we promote excellence within the scene without giving a nod to those who are being excellent? How do we define and learn what is "well shot" vacation footage if we are not supposed to stroke the egos of anyone who does it right? [/B]

there just simply has to be more AVit type showcase's to bring together the cream of the crop as it were..

no one is going to be able to define a style if it is never seen live..
why do we have to reley on outside promoter's to boost OUR artform?

I thought the DIY is the attempt to make our own VJ and A/V showcases?

I do know that AVit SF did just that, and was professional, DIY, and was able to shed more light to the outside world..
What more can you ask for?

I have reviewed 100+ showreels from VJ's all around the VJ scene. and mostly what I see are very well crafted, nicely put together reel's..
Does the "VJ Showreel", represent the actual live VJing artistsory that the creator is capable of? Of course not, but it does show what the VJ is capable of....

A few year's back I lobbied for the *2-hour VJ set with mixed review and feedback..
These day's I'm seeing the 2 hour set becoming reality, and
the shorter the set, the more refinment of the VJing acts will occure..
It just takes some settling in and growing pains..

Why does everyone want to push life and art into a faster evolution? Doesn't it move by fast enuf for you all?
Let us take timeout to "smell the roses" and reflect back year's from now, how the DIY attitude is what made it possible..
:)

[Esotic]

What is the 2 hour set in relation to?

A 4 hour set (since I'm the only VJ, that's pretty much what ends up happening)?

Anybody wanna swing into Raleigh NC for a weekend to get some VJ geek on?

vjpixylight, is there any way for the rest of us to get up in this 100+ showreel action? :)

Anybody wanna share showreels on the DC++ VJ Art hub?

Ya Nilla,

-Esotic

[vjpixylight]

vjpixylight, is there any way for the rest of us to get up in this 100+ showreel action?


Why certainly..
I post the showreels aired on each "Bunker Session" on my site..

http://www.spacedub.org

I am alway's seeking out showreels to webcast, and present on the site, so
if you wanna shoot me a links to your online showreel, or send it to me via
the post, my addy is:

space bunker session's
2028 N. Jefferson St.
Colorado Spring's,
Colorado 80907
USA


Cheers

[fluchtpunkt]

IMO on ego:
(i, too voted against 'promoting artists egos')

if 'ego' is about incorporating yourself in your performances or other types of work - i'm all for it. (though i honestly still lack a wee bit the cojones and ideas to go there myself atthemo). selfportraits have a long tradition. and performance art is always - at least partially - about incorporating (i.e. embodying) something.
if 'ego' is about being a performer that shows his/herself to the audience rather than hiding away - good.
if 'ego' is about having a healthy portion of self confidence - wonderful.
if 'ego' is about strong characters (that often polarize and provoke and thus) might even force the audience to actually shape an oppinion or get engaged emotionally with the work of 'art' - great.
if 'ego' is about having a playful (though not uncritical ;) ) relationship with the mechanisms of hype and marketing - go for it.

...if 'ego' is about being personal and self-confident in/with your work i think it's great. people that put their 'ego' into their work are important because personal perspectives are important in any cultural discourse. being personal is important because it makes it easier relate emotionally to a piece of work.

...

however, if 'ego' is merely about (and that's the way I understand 'ego') serving the megalomania and self-agrandizement of a 'star' (and perhaps an industry behind him/her), about creating idols, about creating a label that will make people consider shit on the sidewalk as artistic gold ...
in short if 'art' primarily starts serving the 'ego' instead ot the other way 'round ... i say f:grrr:k it!

[Esotic]

i think that might be the best use of a "smiley" i've ever seen

and ditto about ego-tripping

0:-)

[akira_k]

I think "ego" is being confused generally with "arrogance". I find it OK to tell someone what they did is cool, and that will surely affect their egos, but I don't think that's a bad thing until they start playing the arrogant twat role and being patronising to the others. Also I think someone can be confident and say openly "I think this is a good work of mine" without being arrogant.

I'm all in for "good ego boosting" but not for "bad self-boosting of ego".

[sleepytom]

to get back to the original question.....

i think the majority of "how to VJ" articals have appeared in the technical end of the dance music press (ie DJ mag IDJ etc etc which also run fetures on "how to beat mix" or "how to be a live sound engineer in 24 hours" - i don't feel that the "how to" style is out of keeping with the rest of the mag)

we have done quite a lot of interviews in a range of press and i don't ever recall being asked how to start VJing - genrally they are intrested in what we do from an artistic/ sociopolitical / entertainment point of view.

i just don't see any problem here really - lots of new people are getting into video with or without press articals telling them how to do it - a lot of these people wil be crap - some will be really good

hwo do we improve the VJ scene? - i feel that we should be incoraging cooperation and collaberation at the top end - building realtionships and sharing of knoledge between the top practitioners will lead to better visuals - beter visuals will incorage more people to get into visuals - more people producing visuals increases the chances of good work being produced - more good work will incorage promoters to book better vjs - better vjs will create more good work and so on and so forth.

the "arrrg these newbees are ruining it / taking my work / giving VJing a bad name" attitude is very sad to see - ultimatlly this atitude comes about because of peoples lack of confidence in there own work - if you trully belive that your work is the best it can be then you won't feel resentment against others trying to be a VJ too.

VJing simply isn't an artform imho - its primary function (in a normal nightclub type situation) should be entertainment not art - sure it can be both but if its not entertaining then its not good vjing.

[eXhale]

big egos or small egos, it's all the same.

[neoteo]

----------------------------------------------------------
VJing simply isn't an artform imho - its primary function (in a normal nightclub type situation) should be entertainment not art - sure it can be both but if its not entertaining then its not good vjing.
----------------------------------------------------------

" should be entertainment not art "

art is just and nothing more , entertainment ...

to continue my post , ... the diference betwin art and not art

art is when you feel the human side , the human influence

and not just random ... there are many kinds of art depending on ramdom , but even those there is a human control

sure 100% ramdom can make art ... but not as good as a human ramdom art

and this is near the non art

if we go to the other side

where art is pure human feeling and life knolage ...

is where most people can see them selfes in it

anykind of vjing must be art ... very near the 7? art

about the ego subject

its the story of the world , you can be the best in something but you better not say to anyone , let them find out

big egos dont work

even small egos dont work most of times

human relations .... we are animals and act like animals

if you find out the other is better then you , he is your enymie

i found strange we are having this conversation here

i found this place full of big egos ...

i admit i have a huge ego , and becose of that i had some problems here , if you can remind ... but thats out of topic

[seex]

Hmmm, this ego dicussion is interesting from the point of how far do we want to strech the definition of qality. The ego that is experienced by others I think is as relevant as disscusing sex or styling or makup of a performer. Judging how someone behaves, is qite superficial, i think.

There is one point tough, we are performers and we appaire on stage so our looks also afect the qality and the look of the show. So in this context it makes sense to discuss ego, character and looks, but is the vj scene at this point, that this be the prime of discussion?

[Esotic]

The substance of something is defined by the application of technique, so it seems that starting with technique is only right and natural.

But after we start to master technique we become concerned with abstract ideas like phrasing, pacing, emotional context, etc...

But how do you teach someone style that leads to substance. Formulas may work, but only for short periods of time as we get tired of the same old thing.

And now some personal questions for anybody that would like to answer:

What do you think about when your gathering your content?

What do you think about when your preparing it?

What do you think about when you're at the club and actually showing it to others?

Is think the wrong verb? Should I be asking how you feel?

What response are you trying to illicit and how do you gauge your efficacy?

[djnada]

Just a couple of thoughts. John Cage and Merce Cunningham experimented with "randomness" in music and dance in the 1950s. I agree with neoteo in the observation that the human element, combined with an element of randomness can yield interesting results. If a VJ has awesome clips that are prepared in a way where they will work together, then the spontaneous triggering of these clips with a live DJ set will, inevitably, have some element of "randomness" in it. I think that the term "random" has entered our contemporary vocabulary as an absolute negative, when it really shouldn't be. Comments to the effect that "random" is all bad will certainly scare away newbies, who will probably be producing more "random" stuff than the seasoned professional. Working out that random stuff will take time and practice. I am into constructive criticism. I am a teacher. I work with teenagers of all levels, some "at risk" kids. You always compliment some aspect of their work before guiding them toward a higher level of excellence, or they may shut down, cave in, give up. Also, on another note, in chaos theory there is something called "simultaneity" or "simultaneous innovation." In our highly connected world, simultaneous innovations are more and more inevitable. One cannot accuse newbies, or anyone else, of "stealing" when they are simply arriving at simultaneous strategies for self expression. I am in the "There's room for everyone. A balance between established artists, product reviews, and newbee how-tos is best" category. :rolleyes:

[holly]

Originally posted by Esotic
And now some personal questions for anybody that would like to answer:

What do you think about when your gathering your content?
I have a checklist that is mostly technical: camera settings, lighting, etc. For cg and visuals I just tool around, usually trying to start with a general idea of what I want, but also trying to stay open to happy accidents. I've found if I don't have a loose balance between these two I run the risk of wasting a LOT of time with no results. Sloppy thinking or too rigid thinking, both are bad. Experience has taught me a "safe range" for my artistic sensabilities. If I'm outside that safe range (ie: trying something radically new) technical issues will take a back seat to chance/creativity.

What do you think about when your preparing it?
Again largely technical: screen res, image quality, proper shade of blue/black, gamma settings (monitor vs projector). I might also test it to various types of music to see how "universal" it can be. Sometimes it's a whole sequence that needs to be edited. Sometimes it's just a loose set of variations. I try to give myself a range of possibilities for performance so I provide more content than I will actually use.... Like when a photographer takes the mandatory 5 photos at different f-stops to get the right exposure.

What do you think about when you're at the club and actually showing it to others?
Does this suck? ;)

Is think the wrong verb? Should I be asking how you feel?
No, I am capable of thinking and feeling at the same time. Sometimes I have over-thought a set that I was sure would be great but in the moment it feels all wrong -- wrong for the venue, wrong for the crowd, wrong energy. Feeling and thinking might be called logic and instinct (left brain/right brain?). If you can listen to both, one can inform the other.

What response are you trying to illicit and how do you gauge your efficacy?
Men seem to be more ready to look at visuals (not man bashing but just observing). Often women are only mildly interested in visuals but more interested in socializing, while men will zone out to almost any eyecandy on the screens (an exageration). Very often I see guys watching the screens and women looking around bored because the guys aren't talking to them.... Since I always try to do my vids for the women, if they are watching or commenting or laughing, then I feel like I am reaching my audience. When guys start looking at the screens and then at me and then at the screens I know they are figuring out that I am the one both controlling the video and being (embodying) the video. It's always like they make a big connection in their minds between live performance and visuals, like they discovered something. That's really good too. You can see this slow realization happening. When they come up and ask if that's me in the videos I always say "no".:P

[Esotic]

In reference to illiciting a response from the audience...

Is getting thier attention enough?

Are you trying to entertain them? Make the laugh? Happy? Overjoyed? Contemplative? Hipnotized? Dance?

For the most part my goal I approach VJing as a form of accompaniment to the DJ. My purpose is to facilitate and compliment the audible groove with an appropriate visual groove. For me it's all about finding the rhythm and pacing and trying to get the A and the V to be in sync.

And I'm not speaking BPM or pure tempo, like making sure my loops repeat on measure or bar boundries. Music flows like water, sometimes quietly bubbling, sometimes quickly rushing, sometimes raging, and sometime freefalling over a cliff. The video needs to enhance that sensation and help the audience immerse themselves in the moment.

Although I guessing that how many drinks they've had is usually more relevant than what I'm doing. :)

So how do you feel when you're creating, editing, showing? Can you define either directly or by analogy what it is that directs you?

What is your muse? What is your inspiration?

I personally like to see the crowd dancing in the rapture of the moment. Or at least engaged and bemused. I can't stand it when they look bored and dissinterested.

-Esotic

[holly]

A silent majority of which you are no longer a part.

And your opinions, Joe? Possibly a voice for those who have no opinion or choose not to speak?

[djnada]

Holly wrote; I've also seen accusations of "big ego diva" thrown at Kriel, Micah Klein, and other successful VJs, and shortly after joining here I was written by Kriel and honestly did not perceive him as a big ego.
I got a PM from Kriel when I first posted a few weeks ago and he seemed like an open, approachable guy. It wasn't until I checked the AVIT site and saw "greatest VJ in the world" and "BBC" attached to his name that I sensed that some may be reacting to this. Hey, remember when The Rolling Stones proclaimed themselves "the greatest rock 'n roll band in the world?" (get yer ya yas out) It was around that time - 1975 - that we started listening to Patti Smith, the Ramones, the Sex Pistols and the Clash. Super groups were out, DIY was in. I don't know if ya'll have noticed, but the society at large respects only the "super sized" players in the arts and everything else out there. Check out Guy DeBordes The Society of the Spectacle (1967). Mainstream television is the great leveller. It can make you, it can break you, but you DO NOT EXIST unless you're represented by the TUBE (tubeway army?). All that said, I still think Kriel is alright. As far as egos go, artists need 'em. If an artist is really great, who cares about ego - it's the art that counts (yes, I ran a gallery for four years - dealt with ALOT of massive egos - will spare you the down and dirty details!) :crazyeyes

[djnada]

joeproper wrote: holly? your opinion is cheap
Joe, that wasn't very nice or proper. Hey, you can disagree, but ya don't have to resort to 'put downs' :mad:

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by djnada
joeproper wrote: holly? your opinion is cheap
Joe, that wasn't very nice or proper. Hey, you can disagree, but ya don't have to resort to 'put downs' :mad:

Yeah this place is only big enough for a couple of people taht can do that. :p

[akira_k]

Originally posted by Esotic
Is getting thier attention enough?

Are you trying to entertain them? Make the laugh? Happy? Overjoyed? Contemplative? Hipnotized? Dance? Most times the audience I have really baffles me. I really don't think they look at the screens at all, or pay attention to it, they are rather quite high with their eyes closed dancing to the music. I look at them and wonder " are they looking at the screens? Did they ever look at them, at least once?"

In these events I go to whenever someone that was audience comes and say they enjoyed the visuals, is a big fator for me, but usually I judge my work depending on how I feel it works with the music, the ambience and everything. Since I don't work alone it's not me who's judging it alone, and we usually gather afterwards and chat about it to get conclusions.

I don't know if it is the best method but if I am only to judge our work from what the audience could say about it, I would have quitted in discouragement some time ago (not because of bad input, but because of lack of it!). It would be much different in an event like AVIT or an Eyewash, most of the events I do are of the superclub/megaparty big DJs type, and I think most everyone is there is too drugged. They go for the music and at the most they feel the lights, but they are not going to focus their attention in a screen for too long, if at all. At least this is how I think, but I'm not 100% sure. My observation of the crowd keeps going, and I hope to understand them and what they might need (or not) soon.

I feel great when I create and show, I create something with ideas in my mind on how to use it, and when I see it done, when I am performing it, it feels great. Sometimes I might have made a wrong choice and I see what I've done is not cutting it, so I feel bad about it and switch to other material.

Performing is very important to me, it would make no sense for me to do this for myself in the comfort of my own home, or just making the content for it to stay there and look pretty. It's much like doing music, I love to compose and make songs, but it;s just not right to stick to that point and not go out and perform live. It's an excellent experience that makes me feel great.

[djnada]

Rovastar wrote: Yeah this place is only big enough for a couple of people taht can do that. :p
Thanks fer the tip, Rova! I'll keep that in mind the nex' time I post! :flamethro

[holly]

Originally posted by joeproper
holly? your opinion is cheap
...and your opinion is... still missing.

I have no idea how asking your opinion offended you (struck a chord) but if that's all it takes I guess I won't ask next time.:confused: :(

[holly]

Ohh kommy, yer soo cute when you get all barky.:love: *swooon*

Actually, my opinions aren't just cheap, they're free! In fact, it's a pretty rare event that you come around ta my house and I don't give ya a whole earful of opinions at no charge at all! Completely gratis! No kidding! Maybe I shoulda been charging all this while! Har har har.
:D

Honestly Joe, no hard feelings. I really thought maybe you had an idea on what some unspoken people might be thinking.... No harm in asking if you have any insight. I figured you spoke up because you maybe wanted to add something that hadn't been mentioned.

But you're right, 50 people isn't the whole world. Polls like this are just a different way to start a topic -- kinda gives people a starting point, but also lets them clock-in without really spending too much time. Most people just say "I totally disagree! Yer a jerk!" and leave it at that....

Polls are InterActif! W00t w00t!

[neoteo]

get the bong , ill make the tea ... holly hit the play ... lets enjoy visuals :D

[twiki]

I think that most people dont lisen to music in culbs any way. how would a dj get awy with pleying 45 king if they did.

[PilotX]

well, fluchpunkt once again expressed what I was trying to say better then me ;) .. I'd just like to add that Kriel is not someone I think of as being an ego.. he is very nice, excellent to work with and imo tall poppy syndrome came into play.. I don't mind people proclaiming themselves to be the worlds greatest VJ, so long as they dont expect to be treated differently to the person playing their first ever gig for us..

[Amukidi]

"I think that most people dont lisen to music in culbs any way. how would a dj get awy with pleying 45 king if they did."

Care to translate?

[lightandshadow]

Does anyone remember when Desktop Publishing became mainstream? Suddenly, people with little or no experience could create business cards, brochures, etc. Everyone was a designer (or at least they thought so) and the market was flooded with work.

Due to advances in technology, a whole new group of people can now create visuals. A reasonably inexpensive computer can do it all - capture footage, editing, rendering, DVD authoring / recording and even live playback and mixing, with little or no external hardware.

With desktop publishing, there were leaders such as David Carleson, April Greiman, Emigre, etc. who changed the industry. Would they have made as much impact if the technology had not evolved? Who knows, but they pushed the limits in their field and set the standards for a whole group of designers. Sure, there were egos involved, but it provided needed exposure for the industry.

Of course, VJing is different than print. It's difficult to experience it secondhand. This makes it even more important to highlight exisitng talent. The VJ scene needs a few David Carlesons to show everyone what's possible. To push the limits, to set standards, to increase exposure for the scene.

Tom made an interesting point.. A VJ needs to be entertaining, but they can be both an artist and an entertainer. I think that's what I'm shooting for with visuals, and what could help advance the industry.

Of course, what is art to some is trash to others...

[holly]

This ties in with something Akira_k was trying to ask earlier. Do VJs just play kiss-butt to the DJ? I don't. When I lived in SF, the music and visuals were fantastic, "raves" we just starting to peak, and the drugs were about acid and e' (but we called it x' back then). Then, in just a little over a year, speed flooded the market and the whole nightlife scene changed -- along with everyone's acne cream consumption. It was gross. The djs all started playing this annoying stop-start music with endless chatterbox vocals. Blech. I give them some credit for continuing to push the drug experience that everyone was on, but it made for lousy clubbing and the crappiest music ever. Visuals were almost entirely dropped from big venues. I moved back to NYC.

Now in NYC, the dj is a different animal. The big clubs service such a bridge-and-tunnel audience that the main dancefloor music has always been a little tired. Small clubs have hot djs, but we had a psycho-closetted-mafia mayor who wanted no dancing in small venues that couldn't pay ridiculous pay-offs to the mafia/city. It's been said that NYC isn't really a big city; it's a series of tiny neighborhoods which you never leave..., so imagine 50 of those small towns in FOOTLOOSE where any venue small enough to have great music was under threat of being closed if anyone so much as swayed side-to-side. There are NO big techno venues at all. Never were.... Only top 40, disco/house, and hip/hop. Obviously, under these conditions, visuals in big clubs are little stunted.

Our VJ scene has developed video-first, often matched with experimental/laptop sound artists (who are all over the place musically). There simply isn't this culture of the DJ being some great influence over the party -- here it's all about the promoter. People don't generally go to clubs to dance, they go to socialize. That's the NYC clubscene. My biggest jobs have been with the worst (radio) music ever. So when I'm asked if my video goes along with the DJ or "keeps people dancing" I gotta roll my eyes. Ecin of TriggerMotion once complained that there HAS to be a decent dj in New York, and I shook my head. Different scene. Different focus. All my DJ friends either tour germany or do shows for sattelite radio.... The hottest clubs in NYC are the ones that play rock'n'roll. It ain't about beaty-meaty tracks that you can emulate in the video. Here the video has to stand alone (with few exceptions: there's always Williamsberg) and contribute to the vibe with or without the dj.

[Esotic]

Holly, can you expand upon the fascist anti-dance legislation you were referring to?

I only recently became aware of it and was like "you're f*cking joking, right?"

Totally offensive and absurd.

I would also like to say that I saw the VDJ Kriel reel and was like "you've gotta be kidding? best VJ in the world? hahahahahahahahahahaha"

-Esotic

[seex]

Hey, Holly!

what do you mean video must stand alone. I assume yure talking about video wich is running alongside something since this is the only situation i imagine where video is not the only mediun (and has no chance but to stand alone). So video that is not standing alone is video that has a simiilar effect as the other thing running alongside it. or what? I mean music and visuals are two completley diferent mediums that ask to be percieved by completley diferent organs and in my book that means that they dont ave much in common as they are.

Like lights and video are both medioums for the eye and can be compared on a prety obvious ground while music is for the ears, and the rest of the body that vibrates to it, but i exclude eyes from this exept if the bass is so strog that my field of view is jumping up and down (thats rear, and usualy i have to stand next to the lodspekers and i dont enyoj that).

In my oppinion video and muisic must be integrated intertwined, must make love, must listen and see each other. I dont think following the music is kissing the djs ass, a prety ego defined thing. I rather like to say that visuals that work with the music are adding a nother layer. Like lyrics, as i grew up on rock, folk, etno and similar music styles, i notice that in the contemporary music rarley has lirycs of any deeper meaning and i see visuals taking over that layer of music.

So rather than having visuals that stand alone i make visuals that follow the music and so add expression to it. Also i believe there is a nother absolute truth, people will never dance to visuals as they do to music.

[holly]

yeah, it's not really a claim I would ever make. If that's actually a claim in his publicity, I dunno.... I started using the term "Supahstar VJ" because it was an oximoron, like "glamorous garbageman" or "army intelligence". Of course the VJ scene isn't known for it's sense of irony/humor so I think many took it to be my "ego" again. Eh, so what. Just do it and have fun. If you want to call yourself "best VJ in the world" I mean, why not. What's to stop you except another VJ making the same claim. Doesn't Rova make a similar claim on his website? Maybe I should go for "Most femnoxious VJ in the world". Who's gonna stop me? Har har har.

As for the NYC no-dancing laws, they all come from an era when control over the city was a crazy battle between the Italian Mafia who owned most nightclubs and cabarets (also city infrastructure like sanitation and construction) and the Irish Mafia (aka the NY Police Dept and City Hall). There was a weird balance of pay-offs and mutual respect..., the same way bars would get tipped off that they were going to be raided tonight. I dunno. I guess it worked in the 1920's, but times changed, real estate values skyrocketted (along with taxes) and the city govt slowly became respectable. They are called the "Cabaret License" laws. Do a google on it and I'm sure you'll find stuff. They were mostly ignored as vestigial remnants of prohibition-era speakeasies, but then we got a mayor (Gulliani, who dressed up in really ugly Marilyn Monroe drag to blow kisses at President Clinton - ick) who was a son of an old school Italian mobster and had an axe to grind (issues -- all U.S. politicians seem to suffer from "issues"). As with most things in America, it's not about making things illegal, it's about making them so expensive that only a few elite can afford it.

Seex, good points. I like the idea that visuals can replace lyrics as the "meaning" of music. But around these parts you either have to team up with a musician/DJ or be willing to ignore the music altogether at times. When you visit NYC and go to some big clubs what I'm saying will make more sense. Here we have clubs where the visuals aren't even associated with the music at all (*gasps*, *looks of shock from VJf members*). Video is often/usually not a part of the main dancefloor, and is usually more featured around the bar, in stairwells, in seating areas, in socializing areas. When it is used it is cut into small pieces and masked into skinny little shapes that fit into the wall (see Crobar, Spirit, et al). One club in Williamsberg (Volume) sometimes only shows big projections in the "other" room, the one that doesn't have a DJ or band performing in. It makes for more "intellectualized" VJing designed for comment or design/atmosphere (lighting), rather than booty-shaking bouncy visuals.

[seex]

Even tough i like and have experience with creating visual enviroments, i still think that all shuld be integrated and that shuld be the qality mark to promote. Like making visuals off dance floors taht are somehow conected to the theme of the party/event.

Conectig visuals with the music tough culd be the peek of expression, since we normaly try to find order in what we experience and create imaginitive conections within the music and picture, that is the qality that shuld be explored further and promoted as good vjing.

Visuals that are not on the dance floor must stand alone but i think they dont fit so much into the vj concept, rather video art. Mostley i use photography for such situations. A vj i think has to work to a layer of music, the two combined is what attracts me most and what i believe to be the potential to create really powrefull combinations.

[holly]

Nicely put.
:yep:

[akira_k]

Interesting, VERY interesting points about your local scene, Holly.

Over here it's all superclub superstar DJ craze, and visuals always have an important part (at least I want to think so, being that the screens are put on the mainfloor and near the DJ), even though lots of "VJ"s don't make that to go with anything. When the screens are placed in such a high exposition place as in our case, if you don't try to add a layer as seex says, it will look like unrelated poo that better not be there. So you complement the place.

I like both worlds. I would like to have here places where they have a spot dedicated to visuals that should stand on their own. Usually there are expos where "video art" is shown, but it's so pathetic that I rather not see it ever ;D

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by holly
yeah, it's not really a claim I would ever make. If that's actually a claim in his publicity, I dunno.... I started using the term "Supahstar VJ" because it was an oximoron, like "glamorous garbageman" or "army intelligence". Of course the VJ scene isn't known for it's sense of irony/humor so I think many took it to be my "ego" again. Eh, so what. Just do it and have fun. If you want to call yourself "best VJ in the world" I mean, why not. What's to stop you except another VJ making the same claim. Doesn't Rova make a similar claim on his website?.

WTF Holly I have NEVER made such claims. I hope you where joking there because you have never researched such accusitions no matter what people may think of me.

HAve you even seen my website???

If anyone has seen me claim otherwise that I said on my website then let irt be known here.

Now I *CAN* tell you which VJ's that claim that they are.

[djnada]

Holly, don't forget NYC's own homegrown DJSpooky, aka Paul Miller, who has produced some intense collaborations with VJ artists with reference to 9/11. I worked with Spooky at a now defunct spot called the RV, run by Tim of Gargoyle mechanique fame (when he was working with Steve). Gargoyle (Ave. B) had a fire and was closed, but became reincarnated as Unconscious Collective (Dan the man). It's the small clubs and galleries where the cutting edge lives. I was working out of the Gas Station at the time (circa 1994) when Spooky was living there. Gas Station, of course was torn down and high rise apartments were built in its stead. Welcome to New York! I have LOTS of stories about the bad ol' days - Steve Rubell, Peter Gatien and others too numerous to mention. Fact is, it is DANGEROUS to tread this naming turf. Some of these cats have been hardened by prison time. I have come near to being deep sixed when, as a VJ at Danceteria, I insisted on (Gasp!) being PAID! Notoriously unfriendly clubs who used artists as slaves were The World, The Underground, the Palladium, (S)limelight, Tunnel, the llst goes on... . I grew weary of all of this BS and began to turn jaded. After much introspection, though, I realized that NYC is great becaused of all of the beautiful, wide eyed creativity that flows out of her. NYC is not the skanky sleaze bucket crap that we put up with daily, but the coalescing of like-minded individuals who, undaunted, push the edges of creativity and the human experience. So, I love NY for that.:sun:

[seex]

I think this thread is going in a wierd direction, were talking about the scene in New York, wich is ok in terms how to promote vj-ing there, but lets talk global.

We had a thread about a vj magazine and there was a few people expresing interest in doing such a thing (writing and designing). In terms of promotion, we didnt say much jet. I posted this idea in the vj magazine thread but i think it shuld be said here also.

As vj-s we have a great potentioal to promote any idea we chose to, we have large audiences that are not only teens going to parties, but also visualy awere people from the arts and advertising comunity. Probably not much politiians going to parties, but if were lowd enough we can also reach them. So if we decide to do this together (like proper socialists) we can pull of a realy powerfur advertising campagin.

My idea is to create a series of clips, that promote a web page that is the basis of the vj magazine we talked about. Later, when the moment is right we can also publish, since we need a lot of cash to make a glossy magazine i think it wuld be good to make some promotion first, and so increese our chances in geting adverts and sponsors. Also on the same scale we culd design a series of small flyers and stickers that wuld be printed in diferent places and just take a few every time we go to a show. In my experience this realy works, what do you think?

[djnada]

Yo, SEEX, this thread is about DIY versus ARTFORM, NOT VJ MAG,. Dontchya think ya should stay on topic? The New York art scene has everything to do with the topic on this thread. That is, should any scene be taken over and dominated by unscrupulous corporate types, even thugs, or is it better served AND represented by the individual artists, who make everything DIY? If ya want something done right, do it yerself! I worked in NYC because it was the closest thing a poor boy could get to the "worldwide scene." I can dig where you are coming from, but I cannot deal with New York bashing. New York is not a regional scene. It is cosmopolitan and, from its neighborhoods to its people, is in every sense of the word a nexus with the world in communication and the arts. Your reaction to my previous post just bums me out, BAD! And why the problem with "ARTIST?" What's the Problema, amigo (a)? Mira...:dali:

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by djnada
New York is not a regional scene. It is cosmopolitan and, from its neighborhoods to its people, is in every sense of the word a nexus with the world in communication and the arts. what a total load of crap - this is why the rest of the world hates the US - americans consistantly refuse to accept that there local scene (be it arts, econimics or politics) is a local scene and might have no bearing on whats going on in the rest of the world at all.

whats more your just worng abou the topic of this thread - its about ballencing incoragement to newbees and promoting top level established artists - nothing to do with the diy v's commercial argument (diffrent use of the word DIY - in this context it refers to encoraging the (wo)man in the street to become a vj)

[seex]

Hey relax djnada,

No atempt to be neagtive towarads your post, i just think that this thread on this forum is meant for more than a local debate, and by that i dont mean that tne NY scene is not an importrant part of the global vj scene, but hey its a small part and shuld not be as exposed. It did not become a large part of this debate becouse it is the closest thing to the "worldwide scene." but becouse you bougit it up.

Some poeople on this forum have a strong oppinion and if in one thred more people form one city decide to express it, this doesent mean that it has everything to do with the topic, i just sense a strong presence of localpatriotism. Wich is very important for comunity art development, but this forum is a much larger comunity that one of us might think.

Its obvoius that this thread is not about the vj magazine but its alot about the content of it, my post just conected two ideas that have been largly debated on a this forum, what to promote and how.

I dont think that you can dig other scenes by comparing them to the closest thing , but only by experincing them. Doing such simplifications is staying on the surface and i hope that one day ill have a chance to come and do something in New York and you can show me round.

[djnada]

Yo, dude, YOU chill... (Like I got the problem...) You are dead wrong. Holly brought up the thread AND the reference to NYC scene. Not me. YOU are threading up the wrong seam! WHADAYA take me for, some kinda neophyte? They call what you are doing "condescending." Yeah, that's the word for it. Ever hear of the saying "all politics is local?" How 'bout Marshall McLuhan's "Global Village..." How 'bout "think globally - act locally." Oh, yeah, I fergot, this is th' World Wide web - Oh, yeah, and it was invented by Al Gore, fer sher! It's all jive, and I'm outta here. See ya "delay" -ter. BTW, Most of the New Yorkers I know down in the Lower East are Friggin' ANARCHISTS, DIG? Ya can keep yer "local patriotism" jive to yerself. KEEP IT! WE DON"T NEED IT!!! Oh, yeah, and sleepy, I guess you decide the meaning of the thread... it's not meant to be up for interpretation or diversification. A linear mind in a nonlinear world. And, hey, guess what - the reason the world hates the US is the same reason (s) that many of us hate the US. Again, a linear mind only sees linear interpretations and solutions. Go back ta sleep! Rest assured, Sleepy, I'm backin' outta this forum, no problem. Keep yer hate and yer single minded assumptions. NADA DJ signing off ...ok, PEACE

[holly]

http://www.poster.net/anonymous/anonymous-view-to-downtown-new-york-city-2104400.jpg
If you ask me New York City IS america and the rest is just a left-wing suburban lie. It's not the Capital of the World anymore, but I don't think another city has been able to claim that title yet. Tom, everyone hates New Yorkers for that arrogance, especially the americans. Ironic that since 9/11 NYC became the capital of the US again (stole it back from LA) and all our landmarks have instantly become USA landmarks, albiet without any concept of them as anything but abstract patriotic symbols.... Is Paris like this?

Sorry Rova, I must have misinterpreted something that someone was ribbing you about. It seemed a bit tongue-in-cheek. Please name all those names in the magazine! Gives us all an excuse to buy it. Gossip with Supah- er, I mean ROVAstar.... pls post your URL and we'll all see that it ain't so. ;)

Well, I've managed to offend just about everyone with this thread. Rather than make a sweeping gesture to offend the few remaining members I'll just say: DJnada, since you were just about the only one doing visuals in NYC nightclubs I certainly don't mean any disrespect to you, but I never saw it. I saw a great old fashioned oil and water lightshow at The World.... I don't remember video at most of the clubs you are mentioning except Palladium (r.i.p.) had those cool TVs on robot arms. Coming from SF where visuals were way advanced and part of the dancefloor, I was dissapointed to return to NYC and not see the same saturation of visuals in clubs circa 1995. There were Feedbuck/Galore who were in a minimalist colorfield phase at the time, very different from what they do now.... There are still HUGE parties without any video/visuals at all. It may be worth discussing why some cities have very different scenes, why some have evolved differently...(drugs). Whatever. Scenes are scenes. Clubs come and go. No disrespect but it's the smaller spaces that are generally doing edgier, fringe, low budget "DIY" stuff (not how-to but the otherone: commercial vs artsy). The gulf between Gas Station and the Limelight was pretty wide (isn't it the same anywhere?). Talking about specific scenes is how we talk, how we know we might want to go visit somewhere else..., even *ghasp* the Upper East Side :cool:

I do a glam look designed for the NY scene, since the psychedelic scene is a little under served IMO. There's a chronic aspect to VJc/f that VJing goes hand-in-hand with an electronic DJ scene. It crops up now and again. Many VJs who've visited us through Eyewash are suprised that there isn't much focus on techno here. SF was very techno (among other musics) and the visuals thrived as far as I could see. Maybe there is a connection.

How are you making all those colors -- oh, keep doing that it wakes up my eyes after smoking on this huge bong!
sorry, it's the secret word of the week! :heart:

SEEX, Just watch the forums for hot topics and find someone with an opinion to write an editorial. Sounds simple (and opinionated) enough!
:yep:

[Kyle]

SCREAM REAL LOUD
http://images.rottentomatoes.com/images/movie/allposters/mmph/243671_rt.jpg

secret word of the week

[neoteo]

my turn to rant

the diference betwin NYC and PARIS

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH , sorry i needed that

well , we EUROPEANS , know very well that the US only have 200 years of life ....

i say no more ...

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by neoteo
my turn to rant

the diference betwin NYC and PARIS

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH , sorry i needed that

well , we EUROPEANS , know very well that the US only have 200 years of life ....

i say no more ...

my advice to you americans ..... go live some where else !!!!

just to open your eyes , then go back to your free dream country and live happy ever after

well you all know that I most definately think most american's are sheltered infant's when it comes to the real world, and thats maybe cause we are only 200 year's old, but dudes and dudettes, what a hell of a ride those 200 years have been:)..

Now back to the original thread shall we..
but first this thread isn't about NYC, and it isn't about supastar VJ's(of which there aren't any anyhow), but indeed it is about what direction VJC-VJF should be taking..

[holly]

Originally posted by neoteo
my turn to rant
.....
my advice to you americans ..... go live some where else !!!!
Guess what Dickless, my ancestors walked here from Asia across an icebridge and we were doing just fine living here for a very long time before you war-mongering murderous Europeans came here and fucked everything up with your ethnic cleansing bullshit, your backwards woman-hating religion that shelters child molestors, and your damaged chromosomes that washes out all the lovely dark colors from the people who lived off the Earth! Yours is a culture of enslavery, flooding China with cheap drugs, raiding Africa for its strongest, and slaughtering AMERICANS for having more than 2 genders and living off the land. So my advice to you Whiteboy squating in a third-world colony stealing a good job from someone local is to get malaria and die -- and that goes tripple for all Euro-Americans and Euro-Asians. GO HOME! Now grow up you immature fuckwad and think before you type or I'll put you back on my ignore list.

[seex]

why change direction, were doing just fine.

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by holly
Guess what Dickless, my ancestors walked here from Asia across an icebridge and we were doing just fine living here for a very long time before you war-mongering murderous Europeans came here and fucked everything up with your ethnic cleansing bullshit, your religion, and your damaged chromosomes!

Actually Holly,
I think that there are only a few norther indian tribes that made it over the barring strait, and they are still north..
If your hertitage is native american, chances are you are a combo of jewish and egyptian, as there is now evidence that there was ancient trade route's betwwen the new world and the old..

I hear the cocaine back then was much better too:):)

Seriously,
let's get off this ethic quagmire. and back on topic please!!

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by seex
why change direction, were doing just fine.

[seex]

it seems taht this thread is drying out, but the topic still evokes emotions, not the only direction to take but its also an option

But seriously, lets get back to the topic

[holly]

Seex, the idea wasn't necessarily to change direction, but maybe to take stock of the current scene (Tom brings up a point that VJc/f is still only a "local scene" on the internet that probably doesn't reflect the larger VJ culture out there -- whatever that may be). Although the title of the thread was "How-to or Artform" I wanted to bring up some other ideas too.... Like, if you make a magazine to promote VJism...

*oh fuck, I think that should be the name of the magazine: vJISM.
har har har*:rolleyes:

should it focus on how-to information (newbee is target), or product reviews (developer is target), or event reviews and interviews with pros ("artist" is target), or try to establish common formats and recording labels (industry is target). Obviously no one would half-heartedly launch an on-going publication without putting some thought to content or who the mag is for.... But even if there is no VJ mag, or dozens, or if it's just a fanzine with paste art, I think it is interesting to see that there is still a desire for a common established format that can be distributed. Maybe this would be the single most important evolution of the scene, and I doubt it will just "happen" on its own. Standardization of formats is something we would have to agree to do, and undoubtedly not everyone would be happy with the choice.

Just congratulating our artform with some evidence and artifacts on paper is cool too.

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by holly


*oh fuck, I think that should be the name of the magazine: vJISM.
har har har*:rolleyes:



Lol, so let's see..
"opticum"
"vJism"
or "A/VSpewy"

I vote for a 'XXX" VJ mag that show's how VJing can change the whole sex publication industry..

I can see it now, VJ "so and so" mixes the donkey ride...har har he...
:rolleyes:

[holly]

A/V spewy.... Brainstove would love it!:cool:

I'm changing my name to Nefertiti Goldberg.

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by djnada
Yo, SEEX, this thread is about DIY versus ARTFORM, NOT VJ MAG,.
Originally posted by djnada
[B] Oh, yeah, and sleepy, I guess you decide the meaning of the thread... it's not meant to be up for interpretation or diversification. A linear mind in a nonlinear world.
:scared: :confused: :confused:
hmm

[holly]

Back ontopic (whatever that was) here's an example Tom of why I brought up How-to vs Artform in the first place:

Remix Magazine sponsored an event for DJs last year called Remix Hotel. I performed for the Edirol room to show off some VJ stylee and promote their equipment as a favor to my local Edirol reps. I played with the Pioneer DVD players (and crashed it with my Nurse -- ha ha, it couldn't take it!), and witnessed a really lousy demo of the Korg Entrancer. I made some connections and played with new VJ gear. All good right?

Shortly after that Remix Magazine printed an article that was all "How to be a VJ" where they quoted some VJs in NYC who were mostly software VJs -- in fact, at the risk of offending all NYC VJs (why stop now?) I don't believe any of the VJs who were interviewed used a single piece of hardware. The article, unfortunately, was "grab a laptop and become a VJ because it's so easy". I can't blame the guys who were interviewed because even they were surprised at the "How-to" focus of the article. (Eyewash was mentioned in the article but we weren't interviewed so we had no input.)

Now it's time for Remix Hotel again, and guess what? I've heard there will be no VJ element this year. I don't work for the magazine, but I can guess that perhaps the gear producers weren't too impressed with the article and the total lack of any attention placed on hardware or pro VJs (likely their advertisers and readers respectively). It's just my opinion, but it looks to me as if a "how to" article on becoming a free VJ with a laptop derailed a national DJ magazine away from VJ coverage. Not only in the magazine, but at the conference as well.

SEEX, if you think we can just rely on others "discovering" what a VJ is and printing a thorough article that advertisers would be happy to support, and pro readers would be interested in reading -- well, maybe this example explains why I feel we need to actively promote ALL aspects of what VJism is and can be. Even VJc/f gives a false impression because it is again just a "local" scene, and also because so many forum threads begin with "How do I...?"

I'm sorry Tom, you say your publicity has been all pro and respectful. I wish the press we've gotten here had such a positive effect on the scene. It has, in my opinion, done the opposite: driven down prices and respectability by making it seem like a hobbiests' pursuit.

[Esotic]

...is a laptop not hardware?

There is one reason I have no desire to purchase a hardware video mixer: I can't program for it. When Edirol releases a mixer that allows me to code video effects and plug them in I'll buy one.

...and saying that hobbiest make it harder for "professional" VJs to make money is like insinuating that open mike nights make it difficult for the Chemical Brothers or PJ Harvey to make a buck. Whatever. If you want to make money at it and your not then you either need to reconsider your business model or up the quality of your "product".

NYC is not the capital of the world. But if I do get a chance to make it up there for Eyewash I may change my mind about that. ;)

Peace and Hot Pants,

-Esotic

[seex]

Holly, an article is one possibility, but my idea is a webpage (for start) that wuld develop in to a magazine. the web site culd serve as an informational base for such articles you mentioned.

Actualy i also have experience with press, there was a few articles published about our spring festival and in regard to visuals there were two. One was aranged by our PR and that one was not problematic since i parciticaly worte it (qotes form the lecturers). We covered every aspect we culd think of, so we had a friend from a museum talk about the problems of institutions, from what is actualy the piece that they shuld put in their archive (so later generations culd see what was going on, we came uppon the qestion of standard here), to how to actualy define what we are doing that an istitution wuld recognise it (we defined the space the public and the vibe as necassary elements) so we figure it fits into the genera of performing arts rather than visual arts.

We also had an old school vj or video artist who was working at a time when a lumakey effect was worth a small fortune. He made an impression with saying that today were slowly progressing towards nothing "if the system doesent work we restart it"

But the other article was a diferent story, similar to yours Holly, it was like its simple, all you need is a lapy and the softwere. On the day this came out i meet the editor about a photographic assigment i discovered that she didnt even know about our workshop. She saw one of our old shows and employed a jurnalist from her staff to write about vjing, she culd use a web site with information about our work.

Back to the web site that wuld develop in to a magazine idea. I think it is important to have a base of information that represents our work as cultural production(i just learned this term recently) rather than a simple weekend hobby.

Promoting a web site culd be a real easy task for vj-s. We culd make a series of short clips and small flyers just promoting the url.

[neoteo]

Originally posted by holly
Guess what Dickless, my ancestors walked here from Asia across an icebridge and we were doing just fine living here for a very long time before you war-mongering murderous Europeans came here and fucked everything up with your ethnic cleansing bullshit, your backwards woman-hating religion that shelters child molestors, and your damaged chromosomes that washes out all the lovely dark colors from the people who lived off the Earth! Yours is a culture of enslavery, flooding China with cheap drugs, raiding Africa for its strongest, and slaughtering AMERICANS for having more than 2 genders and living off the land. So my advice to you Whiteboy squating in a third-world colony stealing a good job from someone local is to get malaria and die -- and that goes tripple for all Euro-Americans and Euro-Asians. GO HOME! Now grow up you immature fuckwad and think before you type or I'll put you back on my ignore list.

i just want to say that i love you even more holly

i lived in macau 10 years , from 11 to 21 years old ...

and i can say that im half french half portuguese blood ...

i dont have a home country ... i feel im from the middle , the world

[holly]

Originally posted by Esotic
(since when)...is a laptop not hardware?

...and saying that hobbiest make it harder for "professional" VJs to make money is like insinuating that open mike nights make it difficult for the Chemical Brothers or PJ Harvey to make a buck.
Hey, that's not what I was saying. From a niche magazine's point of view looking for advertisers and you are a small market, is it easier to get an advertisement from Apple and Dell, or from Edirol and Korg...? In reality I have no idea, but the big computer manufacturers have plenty of other places to advertise where the circulation is much larger. It is better for smaller companies to advertise in targetted ways like DJ/VJ magazines. That's all. I'm just suggesting that pushing an article that shows only laptop/software combos may not have been the smartest thing for Remix Mag to do, and certainly did not represent the companies that showcased and rented rooms at Remix Hotel. MotionDive did not rent a booth, neither did Arkaos or Resolume, but if you read the article you would have assumed there were no other options at all. As SEEX suggests, it was probably a reflection of the ignorance of the author, or his/her presumption of ignorance of the reader: "No one knows what this VJ thing is, so I have to speak from square one and can't get too complex...". This is ok if it's followed by other VJ articles which deepen the exposure, but if that is the only article that is offered in a year, it doesn't (IMO) incourage Korg/Edirol to buy advertisements. These companies have to assume that no "pro" VJs are reading a beginner/how-to article. And if it doesn't even mention the possibility of hardware products (other than a laptop) then it isn't convincing them to buy ads.

Thus the need to promote a FULL range of the scene to balance out overly simplified/ignorant press. I'm NOT saying stop all newbee and how-to info, I'm suggesting that maybe we can build up the other aspects so media becomes aware of it. Besides, the media loves to throw in that "suffering/starving artist" crap so they will always make a big deal out of the down sides to the job.

When I control my press we try to shake "myths" and easy (mis)conceptions. When they quote our PR directly it is usually much better, as SEEX said.

All this just proves that we need more media exposure, whether through a VJ specific mag or, as Oli said in another thread, to pitch more articles to existing DJ and scene mags.

At the same time I'm wondering if it's so great to kiss up to Edirol and Korg at all, seeing as how (to misquote Tom) they never seem to bother consulting with us as a group. Software developers are much closer to this local scene. Maybe they deserve all the props.

[Esotic]

Yeah, Holly, that makes sense. And I'm not saying that I wouldn't love to see what others are doing with mainly hardware setups, it's just not for me (right now).

VJs are the new DJs, in some respect. And DJs are the new Guitarists. It seemed like just a couple years ago that nobody even knew what a VJ was, and DJs didn't get much glossy print of thier own. Now DJs have a whole slew of magazines dedicated to what they do. VJs are destined to become a larger subculture and at some point VJ mags are also destined to happen (or we'll at least get bigger chunks in DJ mags). But the VJ spectrum is much wider in scope than the DJ spectrum, and that could be as much of a problem as it is a benefit. Doing an installation piece at the local gallery is much different than blasting bright lights for the DnB show, which is much different than incorporating as a VJ into a performance art troupe or (g*d forbid) a sporting event.

I'm very happy to have found the VJc/f community and am blesssed by your collective diatribes daily. Anytime somebody asks me "how do you find about VJing?" I always send them here. It might be very cool to have a VJ mag, but it could never replace what I get from this collection of screaming @ssh0les.

Da Lighted,

-Esotic

[seex]

I agree Esotic, this site is a goldmine of inspiration, information and support, im qite a lonley vj here actualy i dint know whats going on elswere, i am a photographer and thats how i got into visuals, i was only using slides until i discovered resolume. And we shuld stay close to this site with this idea of larger promotion. But still i wonder if this site can provide usefull info to someone writing na article about vjing. It shure can help folks doing essays. Vj Central is closer to this but still i think that someone who is out of this (a jurnalist) probably gets frghtend of from all the tecnical stuff being mentioned at vj central. I guess thats where "its simple" attitude comes from. At first it seems realy dificult, but then you realize that its just pressing buttons on a lapy and her we go VISUALS.

[djnada]

I am sorry to everybody, seex and sleepy Tom, especially, for the rant. I think it was mainly because what I was writing came so much from the heart about people that I had grown to appreciate and love deeply, in a place (I won't mention) that I grew to resent, then to reform my feelings about.
Quote: "I grew weary of all of this BS and began to turn jaded. After much introspection, though, I realized that NYC is great becaused of all of the beautiful, wide eyed creativity that flows out of her. NYC is not the skanky sleaze bucket crap that we put up with daily, but the coalescing of like-minded individuals who, undaunted, push the edges of creativity and the human experience. So, I love NY for that."
I think it was a sense that these people, my friends, of all different nationalities, were being dissed, really got me. Well, the forum is truly world wide, with a lot of differing opinions... We simply did not have such a thing 20 years ago and the city was the "next best thing" to being on an international scene. Now I feel a bit foolish.
I'm gonna lay low for a while from the forums. Guess it's obvious that I am somewhat isolated these days, in Woodstock (is "Woodstock" a nation?) and crave communication with "like minded" souls. Please don't hate me for having such a strong emotional response.

[neoteo]

i want to apolagise for my rant post on this thread , and give my real opinion on the topic

how can we teach art ? how can we promote VJing as an artform ?

showing best VJing performances , who is the judge ?
if the market tells , the most expencive VJ ?
what about underground/non profit VJing ...
ask for a movie/photo/paint artist opinion ?

for me , the mag should have articles for VJs and not for newbies

newbies after reading the mag will not become VJs so there is no need to make a mag for them ...

if it comes in paper and not in digital format

what we want is images , good tuturials with good photos of the software to explain

long boring articles about : art , video , cinema , market , hardware , software

in the end of corse there will be nothing there we cant get in here ... ( net )

like some have said , its a possible way to filter the important info
we are all always colecting here

i think its a great thing expecialy for people who cant do a search on google , who dont have any computer/internet habilities

but then those may be the newbies , or old school vjs ( witch i dont believe )

so its kind of a dead end

the comercial version may be the only one that can work

full of crap with nice cover and dvd

[holly]

Hey, what's with all the group hugging in here!
:grouphug:
Did everyone take their Prozac?

Please keep posting, Nada, and in C OLOR!!!! Amerika bashing is just a part of this forum.:zzz: Get use to it. The US is just the dominant focus of wealth and world power right now. Big deal. Like, that changes MY life somehow for the better??? It doesn't mean I'm riding in a limo and collecting royalties from Haliburton cafeterias with iraqi sex-slaves making decorative pyramids in my livingroom.... It's their ignorance if they don't know the difference between NYC and USA.
If this forum existed 200 years ago we'd all be bitching about Napoleon and the French. 100 years ago we'd bitch about Keiser and Austria. 70 years ago we'd bitch about Britian and the Viceroys. 50 years ago we'd bitch about Hitler and the Nazis. 30 years ago, Stalin and the Ruskies.... You should be happy the US is becoming more like Europe every day! Isreal is next, then China, then maybe India. Etc, etc, etc. The rich get rich; the have-nots like us bitch.

Originally posted by neoteo
what we want is images , good tuturials with good photos of the software to explain long boring articles about : art , video , cinema , market , hardware , software
.....
i think its a great thing expecialy for people who cant do a search on google , who dont have any computer/internet habilities but then those may be the newbies , or old school vjs ( witch i dont believe ) so its kind of a dead end
Well..., because of Eyewash I've met a LOT of VJs I never met here (presumably they are not newbees).... And getting to see their work is sooooooo cool.... Glossy images of work would be great, and more timeless.... reviews and tutorials will become irrelivant in 6 months.... My guess is the people who aren't obsessively here, probably aren't obsessively buying/researching gear/apps.... I'm for more visual representation of art/work, screencaps, interviews, etc. I'd say if another media would help connect VJs then it's totally necessary. We almost never see content here....

...besides, sometimes it's nice to be able to just discuss a relevant topic (essay) without being called an ignorant fascist for something completely unrelated. Sometimes oneway communication is better.

[seex]

No harm done, appology accepted. Did you know Nada means hope in serbocroatian, its also a personal name in these parts.

Holly i had a look trough your website i didnt know what eyewash was, looks realy nice.

Probably many vj-s dont even know about vj-f, culd be a problem of promotion, wich we culd solve realy easy. But then the first page shuld emediatley devide nito what is vjing- a seriuos essay on the role of visuals and how to- much of what there is now. It seem as a good time for these ideas since a new code is being developed for the vj-c and also talks of a magazine are going on.

I think its time to start promoting artistic qality, rather than getting as many new vj as possible. Actualy i thin these two tings dont necassarly exclude each other. On the workshop i realized that some of the interesents, who came there to see whats going on, were like id do it if i culd have complete control over the visuals. I didnt get it at first cus its obvius, but actualy they were coming from seeing to many bad shows where the visuals seem more random than controled. So improving the qality of our shows can also leed to atracting serious hard working artists, and reduce the interest of the "im in a club anyway why not do something wihile im there" hobbyists.

A generaly more serious stance towards our work culd be the first step.

[Amukidi]

Never let us be the sheep......
direction? We don need no steenkin' direction.....

[seex]

sheep or shepard, its up to you!

[Lucidhouse]

good to see a place that's passionate over the VJ'ing art form and it's future,. .. look's like an eZine is the most practical and effective media...

maybe peep's can submit their Ideal formats, material, marketing and artistic guidelines in brief on another thread...

[Lucidhouse]

and of course we can produce a collectable glossy version with DVD!!!

[Lara]

Other industries don't perpetuate the myth that it takes no skill or training to be successful. Why should VJing? There's a REAL DIFFERENCE between showing an accessible and democratic face in sites like this and making people believe that it doesn't take hard work and dedication, evolution and awareness to be a good VJ.

If we do anything it MUST be to showcase the best of the scene and encourage all kinds of talk about content creation and the ARTISTRY (not necessarily ART for all you haters) involved in making visuals. In this way we can all be involved in creative talk and work (as Sleepy suggests) as well as being constantly inspired to produce excellent work. Peer pressure can work in many ways and as long as people remain indifferent to the content they create we can't all move forward together.

So we need MORE festivals, MORE talk about content....

and if this idea about a magazine is really serious why not try out an ezine first by writing some journalistic style articles for VJC? They would be much appreciated I am sure.

This community is the responsibility of all of us, as is the health and wealth of the VJ scene. The more we put ourselves and our work on the line the more we give out and ultimately get back.

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by Lara
Other industries don't perpetuate the myth that it takes no skill or training to be successful. Why should VJing? There's a REAL DIFFERENCE between showing an accessible and democratic face in sites like this and making people believe that it doesn't take hard work and dedication, evolution and awareness to be a good VJ.

If we do anything it MUST be to showcase the best of the scene and encourage all kinds of talk about content creation and the ARTISTRY (not necessarily ART for all you haters) involved in making visuals. In this way we can all be involved in creative talk and work (as Sleepy suggests) as well as being constantly inspired to produce excellent work. Peer pressure can work in many ways and as long as people remain indifferent to the content they create we can't all move forward together.

So we need MORE festivals, MORE talk about content....

and if this idea about a magazine is really serious why not try out an ezine first by writing some journalistic style articles for VJC? They would be much appreciated I am sure.

This community is the responsibility of all of us, as is the health and wealth of the VJ scene. The more we put ourselves and our work on the line the more we give out and ultimately get back.

I agree totally, the best thing for AVit and VJC, VJF and other multinational organization's that feature Visual arts and VJing (festivals and the likes) as enities, is to start proactively promoting what they do for the greater Visual societies as a whole... That means starting VJ Ezines, working with collaborative cross-platform entertainer's, taking on internet project's and Challenges likr 5 Min by Mon. excetra, and more live shows!

I think some that are acknowledged intellectually based art dicipline's PHD's and the like, are starting to recognize that VJ's are a new breed
of performance/based live imagemotion-manipulationhybrids of traditional still artform, and are increasingly looking for VJ's to MC the traditional type of film festivals.
I say this as Spacedub has been asked to submit a bid for the "Denver Visual Music Festival", which has a institutional budget similar to what AVit UK recieved from the ARTs council for Brighton..
We are being asked to set up all the technology, projection screens and beamer's, and even Live VJ mix between serval PHD act's already commited..
The festival will be Friday November 12th at the King Center Concert Hall (http://www.kennethkingcenter.org/). Here are a few the performers: Dr. Gregory Walker (http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~gwalker/FlamencOrbit.html), Dr. Michael Theodire (http://www.dynakit.org), films by Norman McLaren and Oskar Fischenger.
(You gotta know that when this kind of funding start's coming from educational institution's, and when PHD's make up those institution's, that A/V art has arrived, and that it's partly because sites like VJCentral, and function's like AVit, which has apparently helped raised those intellect's conciousness to VJism!!
All those student disertation paper's that peep's have researched from places like VJF must finally be starting to make the pROfessor's look up:)

Just Edited to add-
that if this works out well, it could be a springboard for a well funded AVit-Denver in the future..
I welcome any help, support, idea's, practical AV experience any of you involved from this forum, in actively helping me promote our artform, in order to further what should be a community goal of a properly funded AVit's in 2005..

[vjpixylight]

okay I split off the outlines for the proposed E-mag, and more VJ action to:
http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7466

I statrted it with LC's Outline of what to do, as a good starting point for this new thread..