Big Acts using DVD's/VHS instead of VJ's

[Rovastar]

Amukidi said in a previous thread:

"
How do you see the future of VJs?"

Yes, I'm noticing a distinct shift this year, in my capacity of visuals programmer for the Big Chill - Many headline acts are bringing their own visuals - not VJs, visuals i.e a DVD or VHS to press play when they start! Whether this is from bad past experiences being supplied with a "random" VJ, or they have chosen to have stuff custom made, I don't know, but some of these acts are big players in this game, and we should take notice of this. As to whether or not VJs can perform as solo artists? Of course they can, but they are a rare breed, and their work must keep developing in order to cope with the average clubber's attention span. But for me the most significant change is the number of hwell known DJs who are now addressing their own visual needs - this says a lot about the state of our game.
"

I fear this a worrying trend in DJ's/music acts to do this.

THere are many elements to VJ'ing (content, meaning to the visuals, etc) but an important one, to me at least, is that of timing.
I know some VJ's don't see that as an important aspect to VJ'ing as they focus on the meaning of the visuals, etc.

Play a DVD/VHs will obviously lose the sense of timing (I cannot imagine the musicians queueing up there songs by turning around to see whta is on the screen at that moment.

I fear bad VJ's might be a factor in this way of thinking but sadly I feel the 'saving money' option is more so. Established acts are more likely to be established businessman (and women). A DVD will cost say 2 VJ sets.

ARe we not educating DJ/musical acts enoughs with what can be done. I am not talking AV here just more communication and intergration. I like to talk to the DJ's etc before I do a gig if at all possible to get input into style and flash there name up etc. I see this as important as the input you get from the promoter for the night about branding there style in there.

[brain]

yes, we have seen more and more djs or live acts showing up with dvds. i guess some have been disappointed with bad visuals by random VJs at other venues - this might even be more the point than the money issue.

when we are already performing at the venue (for other sets), we sometimes offer to "play around" with their visuals and mix it with our own stuff.

if you do it properly, you can manage to impress them with that (they have seen their own stuff way too often), and make some connections. in personal talk, they easily see the point why live visuals are much cooler. you have to sell your service/art as special or superior to playback, either to the musican or the promoter...

and anyone producing such a backdrop dvd - charge accordingly! consider you make VJs unemployed!

[Amukidi]

"yes, we have seen more and more djs or live acts showing up with dvds. i guess some have been disappointed with bad visuals by random VJs at other venues - this might even be more the point than the money issue."

Its nothing to do with money in these cases - we are talking headline acts here, and they are allocated a VJ if they want one from our pool - which, I may add, includes a few from these pages. No, it is far more likely to be connected with them having their own choice - hell, if I was in the music side, I'd be looking to have an input in what is shown. Lets face it, we've all seen samey, shite visuals churned out all over the place, and as the technology and equipment becomes more and more available to all, this is what is bound to happen. Personally, I think its not a bad thing in the long run - The sharper VJs will still get work, a bit of competition never hurt anybody!

[Rovastar]

Yeah true they want more 'artistic license' in there but was more boarding the scope to DJ/music acts as a whole where VJ's are not provided. But then again I am a cynic. :)

[mondo]

good vjs will always get the gigs - competition is fine by me - raises the quality and desire for us all to achieve that special visual moment...

....having said that....it does mean more work for normal vjs who need to start creating sets to music tracks a la hexstatic etc etc

...another process layer in my book, going from sampling, editing, creating, thinking, now we have sequencing and finalising a backing visual track....its hard not to think MTV-land here....but unless we tread these paths how are we gonna know if it works or not!
:rolleyes:

[neoteo]

my opinion on this subject
i hope doesnt sound off topic
i will defend the predone visuals/sounds compositions
not that i dont like the old school all live VJing

but if we think this way , what can be done with more quality ?

in music for exemple , to have a good jazz jam , where all musitians are improvising , all the players must be top quality or it will sound a mess

i see it the same way in VJing .. for a standart performer .. in this case a DJ , doing all the visuals at home can be much more easy and even connected to the kind of music he wants to play

i believe that the quality of Live AV will improve a lot when the DJ and VJ are the same person .. mixing pre done dvds ... for one simple reason ... pre done can be much more connected to the music .. not just in sincro but olso on the meaning of the visuals
and its much more easy to not repeat any visuals , not using any loops , avoiding boring stuff ...

still a good AV team , DJ and VJ .. will always make good performance .. i think for the team to compete with the solo ... the team must work a lot more toghether ...

so i see this for the future ... djs and vjs practicing togheter ... or the solo guy will always beat them ...

[Amukidi]

"but unless we tread these paths how are we gonna know if it works or not!"

Wise words Mondo! Any artist worth their salt, will be constantly moving and evolving, both creatively and with the flow of where their work comes from. I shall watch with fascination how this unfolds - I expect many DJs will tread this path, or hook up with a visual artist to create a coherent package. The VJs that will suffer the most, in my opinion, are the less discerning ones anyway - those that think its just a case of hurling dozens of clips at the screen in the hope that it will look great (which of course it doesn't - it looks like a sack of shit tied up in the middle).
As a final thought - I think that ego will play a part in this. I feel that there are two types of VJ out there (as much as you can categorize anything) those with some humility and those with egos the size of Canada. theres not a lot in the middle ground - (Remember, I'm talking from fresh experience here) - I know who I'm tending towards in this issue, some folks really do have a distorted view of their own ability! Lets have less swagger and more thought!

[Rovastar]

I think maybe I didn't explain enough.

VJ resisdant at a club and every DJ/acts brings their own DVD in. What is there job in that club anymore?

To just change DVD every hour??

It is not an ability question per sa.

And what do the punters see in this enviornment of a DVD is played?

[littlecatalyst]

its a bit of a funny one..... i wish there were more djs heer to explain what this is all about. My only experiences with a big name dj bringing in his dvd defintely can not be chalked on as "wanting better quality" as it was nothing more than ihis name in 20 different fonts and the ocasional shot taken from the airport into the city, oh and still shots of his stupid mix tapes... but then again he was billed as the "#1 dj in the world" so maybe thats appropriate... was supposed to play it (and not remix) for the forst 45 minutes. yeah right- like he's able to stop me from across the room (played it straight for about 3 minutes and then started remixing- after the third loop i daid fuckit and cut it out-- about 20 minutes into it) didn't get any complaints though...

it may be that, since they are on tour, they may play in a number of venues that don't have a vj. so they have this dvd that they bring along with them. l-a-m-e, but understandable if they want to have visuals

yeha yeah it coudl be because they have seen shitty visuals but not sure thats the case, because so far i have not seen much shit-hot visuals (amukidi, please describe the visual quality that these djs are bringing)

anyway... obviously they understand not having something in sync and not being able to improvise.... obviously they are not able yet to pay for VJ to go on tour with, so this is what we end up with.... as more and more get into entrancers of stuff like what live acts (like flaming lips) are doing visually, this will probably change, but maybe its more that they like having visuals and just haven't figured out how to do it when they are alone and how to then interact with the VJs....

anyway, at least the DJs are thinking about visuals....

[Amukidi]

"VJ resisdant at a club and every DJ/acts brings their own DVD in. What is there job in that club anymore?

To just change DVD every hour??" - If this carries on, there won't be residencies, well not many anyway! A fair few DJs can afford the new Pioneer DVDdecks and they'll use them. The punters will see visuals - at least that's how most of them will see it - a lot of them won't know the difference. But let's hope that clubs are not the only domain for our work eh?

"anyway... obviously they understand not having something in sync and not being able to improvise.... obviously they are not able yet to pay for VJ to go on tour with, "

Oh believe me the acts I'm talking about can afford to take a VJ on tour - I did say its not a money thing...they obviously feel that they know what they want! As for the quality of their DVDs, well not being into time travel, I can't tell you yet - watch this space!

[djnada]

Back in the day - I mean 1982 - 1990, we used to create visuals for clubs and galleries. The visuals were premade vhs that was extremely rapid paced, much of it abstractions, layered with images. People would constantly come up to me and say - "wow, that video really goes with the music How'd you do that?" I came to realize that the human mind seeks to order what is otherwise a chaotic universe. I got into chaos theory in my video and painting. It is therefore possible to provide someone with a premade DVD that has chaotic elements that are edited in rapid fire fashion which people will perceive as being extremely well timed! I was the house VJ at Danceteria on 21st street in NYC 1985-1986. I showed at the Underground (Union Square), Limelight, Tunnel, Pyramid, 8BC,Limbo, Darinka and many, many others. BTW, I am totally blown away by this trend in VJ culture. It is quite exciting to see that this time has come!

[Amukidi]

Gonna be a burning issue here I know, but you are, to a greater extent right - this is never more true than in the punters eyes - excepting obviously synchronised visuals, they ain't gonna notice for the most part! And if the footage is quality, and beautiful, thet aren't going to care either.

[Amukidi]

But I am talking about clubs here - there's a whole other world of visual venues out there.

[Amukidi]

And I'd far rather watch a beautifully crafted pre-prepared tape, than crappy old ripped "ironic" shite thrown at the screens..there I've said it!

[djnada]

I would still edge toward a live show for its immediacy. We used to do "rescreens" (shooting the screen close up, with colorization effects, etc.) back in the vj/dj booth and throw those out there, in order to texturize and to otherwise rework the many canned videos we were supposed to give our audiences. This is before vjs had the kinds of software, etc. that make live production a snap. I was working in an environment where the videocassette itself had just been invented! Corporate MTV stuff came in 3/4 inch tapes. Industry snobs insisted that 3/4 was the only valid format! My feeling is that the MTV industry thing industrialzed video in the 80s. Process is very important. We enjoyed the idea of giving the audience an ongoing, live production - that included them, as well! Although fine preproduced sequences can work, I still feel that a live VJ is the way to go.

[Amukidi]

"I would still edge toward a live show for its immediacy."



Well of course, so would I - providing it's quality!

[many2]

Originally posted by Amukidi
And I'd far rather watch a beautifully crafted pre-prepared tape, than crappy old ripped "ironic" shite thrown at the screens..there I've said it!

I completely agree.

I see 2 reasons why a DJ would want to provide his own visuals :

a) Quality : As everyone is saying, quality is an issue. I know some VJs having residencies in clubs whose work is a shame for our art : it's no wonder DJs don't want to be associated with such poor images.

b) Exposure : Some VJs simply don't understand that the screen is sometime the ONLY solution to give information to the people in the club. DJs want people to know who they are, they want people to remember. Instead of counting on the VJ to print his name on the screens (which might not happen) it is better for a DJ to cover the risks of having no exposure during his set and provide his own "spinning logo".

Many-2

[djnada]

My feeling is that the vjs are not the arbiters of taste here. If a stream of people in the audience come up to you and tell you that the visuals are awesome - THAT is the measure of quality. Also, as long as everybody is looking over each other's shoulder and quick to supply put-downs, that will stifle creativity. Lastly, all levels of individuals are out there. The reaction of viewers is an immediate consequence of good and bad visuals. In this way a vj can work toward honing their skills. No one wants to produce boring, mundane, bad stuff.

[revjrbobdodds]

DJs definitely, for the most part, get their DVD on for the branding or "exposure." Sometimes it's pretty good (Oakie's is technically beautiful, and cost a wad) and sometimes it's not (S-cough-cough-asha).

Some other DJs are taking really creative approaches to video: Shadow, Zabiela, Kleinenberg, for example, and aren't doing any branding at all.

I think a big frustration for DJs is often that the audience doesn't know the extent of what they're doing: layering, scratching, looping, etc. Doing this with DVDs -- having a visual component to illustrate what they're doing -- will be a big attraction to DJs. The move to DVD mixing is really on us. When that happens, I suspect DJs who haven't learned to grapple with video (via Pioneer, or whomever) will, at the least, start carrying a DVD around. Maybe a VJ, but I'm not sure.

The thing about a DJ taking their own VJ: it's not just the fee. It's tickets, taxis, hotels, meals, drinks, schedules, egos, image, equipment, setup, etc. For a DJ, having a VJ accompany them might make neither financial nor logistical sense, and a DVD slips in your pocket.

I think a lot of them might love to have a live VJ, but clubland's really gone wobbly the last two years, and the margins have got mighty slim. Some DJs who were charging ?5k a night two years ago are getting ?300 now -- or they're out of business.

[Amukidi]

Well I certainly hope we don't see a plethora of "branding" at the Big Chill - we don't play that sort of game too much! But I will report back after the event, I think this issue has only just started and it will be interesting to see how it pans out. But if DJs start bringing stuff that's just a big promo trip - I for one think that'll only last a short while (hopefully!!).

[Lucidhouse]

Then again I've done some large party's were musically we've just put on a CD wit a good mix, did a reactive visual mix - ad a kicking time...Do we really need DJ's to be present just to mix some tracks together ???

It's a live and fluid environment and the performance should be the same.

I feel the industry's at a turning point now... good reactive visualists/artists/ vj's, will be recognised and treated professionally, mostly on how well they can also keep and lift a crowd !!!

DJ's and Vj's with a closer performing relationship will benefit as a whole, it's mostly a youthful audience we entertain, they've been fed audio visuals since the word dot...quite a decerning lot I would say

[atomicone]

At the club I am resident at, I've noticed more and more Djs going with this trend, and already it has cost me work. For instance, this past long weekend, visuals in one of the two main rooms were blown out at the last minute, because the club found out the headliner was bringing their own dvd. As it turns out, the dvd was only used for 1 hour of the 10 hours that room was open. 9 hours of blank screens. To top it off, I had to back out on the vj I had booked for that room, and felt like an ass, even though it wasn't my fault.
Now, this is partly due to a recent management change at the club, and I have watched their commitment to visuals and high production values slip over the past two months. Despite this, it is not the first time I've been blown off because the group is "bringing their own visuals", and it turns out to be a dvd from the record company that plays the same 10 ad slides over and over.
I love it when a bigger tour comes through and I get to see someone else do live visuals, but it is actually really rare. Maybe is is a little better in Europe, it seems like most djs won't bring someone along with them when the come to North America. The one exception is the live acts - bands or live electronic artists are far more likely to travel with a visuals rig, two of the most recent I have seen are dj shadow and primus, who both came with great visuals shows.
I think that this may partly be due to the difference between dj culture and live music culture. It shocks me when we have a live dj/electronic act, and have to rent in things like keyboards or samplers for them. Any live band that has a keyboardist will travel with that gear, and usually someone to set it up for them. With djs, they have always just brought the music, and the venue supplied all the gear. Would any guitarist go on tour and just expect each club to have a guitar for him?
This same mentality applies to live visuals, it seems. Touring acts are far more likely to have vjs in tow, while the djs are more likely to have nothing, or nothing special.
You can't really do much about the pre-fab dvds that you have to play, except maybe hand your business card to the tour manager/dj and ask him to check out your set for a while after or before he plays. I've had several guys tell me after 20 minutes of ads to start mixing in again. And it might even turn into an opportunity to make a dvd or two.

[Amukidi]

"Then again I've done some large party's were musically we've just put on a CD wit a good mix, did a reactive visual mix - ad a kicking time...Do we really need DJ's to be present just to mix some tracks together ???"

Ha Ha - nice one Morris!;)

[cat]

I have to say several acts I have worked with played live over an adat, or come to it a number have just a dat, so keeping the visuals in time would fairly simple, press play at the same time or put the audio or click on DVD.
Which I have to say i the way Cornelius did it, it was to be frank Awesome! Perfectly intergrated visuals, and the content was all extremely good too. The only tracks that you could say I seen that before were made 5 or 6 years ago add to that minimal but very effect use of lighting and props and you have a great show.

I bought the dvd,

I wonder could that means anything?

cat

[revjrbobdodds]

I think this is a good thread, and I'd hate to see djnada's question turn into an excuse for us all to moan.

I like DJs. A lot. I think the best of them are skillful, talented and intelligent about what they do. And not long ago, they were in the same boat as us.

And I love VJs and VJing, too. A lot. And AV acts.

I think the thing is to think about the future -- really try to be perceptive about where the audience and the clubs and the technology are going -- and to be there first, if you want to be.

Djnada's right when he says certain things we do don't help the scene. Having watched us all moan and worry and stuff for four years now, I'm wondering if maybe WE SHOULD CHANGE. Maybe we should embrace DVD AV mixing, DJs with DVDs, or any other method of working. We're not in the visuals business -- we're in the entertainment business. Let's be entertainers, not VJs.

You know, because cat's right -- IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SHOW... (not how it was made)...

[Mbazzy]

My humble opinion is that this trend will deepen the divide between the VJ as "technician" and the VJ as "artist" ...

The more technician [business ? ] oriented people - in the sense of lightning/backdrop provider will most probably suffer ...

The artist always survives ...

[visualove]

This is a great discussion!

Ultimately I think our goal is for the visuals to be in sync with the music, to be relevant to the music and to respond to and strongly affect the dancers, even with changing visual "tastes".

There is a continuity between music producers who layer many elements into a dance track and the DJ who plays tracks, crossfades mixes and loops 1-3 tracks into what the audience hears. The DJ is leading the audience on a trip and responding to the audience energy in selecting the next track or effect.

It's the same, some VJ's produce original footage in the studio made of many elements and even their own camerawork and animation. The performing Vj is selecting visuals, mixing and effecting them to complement the music and the audience and respond to the audience energy.

It would be best if the VJ and DJ were the same. (Playing a premade DVD is like the DJ and VJ being on different planets!)

I think where we are going is for the VJ/DJ interface to be combined and run by a single artist. The visuals would be prematched with the tracks, but there would be an capability to improvise and adjust the visuals as well as mix and effect them.

Of course this means the end of turntables - just DVD's (with sound) or all on the harddrive.

That's my 2 cents on the future, may be a while out...

[xiayu]

i've played for plenty of djs who brought their own dvd, and so i would edit it into clips and use it as primary footage along with effects and of course my own library. paul van dyk, bad boy bill, etc... i got compliments from bbb's manager. bbb was running a mini-dv deck with footage and i got the dvd the night before so i got the whole thing cut up into loops. used the preview option on my ave 5 so i could have two seperate images on the screens and rocked it... meh, besides some video guy had to make the dvd in the first place?

[Amukidi]

"besides some video guy had to make the dvd in the first place?"

It is a really tricky one this - if you decide that you want to go down the path of making this content that DJs are using, you're going to run up against a big hurdle. How much would you sell a 1 hour DVD of original material for? The price you should be thinking about, if you've any business acumen, will be way, way above what any DJ is gonna cough up. And if that wasn't bad enough, as soon as it hits the market - it will be ripped un-mercilessly - (it would seem that there are many folks around who'll do anything to prevent them actually having to create any material themselves - there's one very active on these forums as we speak). I know some folks are not bothered by this, but I for one am - its the only thing that seperates us from each other.

[mondo]

As a final thought - I think that ego will play a part in this.

agree here - egos and deep pockets.

the ego vjs will get the gigs whatever because they push themselves in the scene (doesnt matter what they use or are like)

the quality vjs will do ok, because they will plough their visual beliefs in their own way as artists, responding to brief

then there are the vjs who will buy a dvd mixer/latest gizmo (deep pockets) and produce shite work

there are many overlapping strands here, added to commitment and energy to keep going

producing a dvd is such a weird game to play in my book (worth it for the experience) - but dont we become film makers/animators as opposed to performers ? ( vital audience essence is lost ).....or is it a needed promotional stepping stone tool we all need to go through?

Q? do we metamorphose from vjs in clubs to MTV video producers as we get older?
if we are talking money...why is it that addictive tv, dfuse, light surgeons & other successful vj crews move heavily into arts festivals, tv, international branding & architecture etc?

i dont see dominant DJs in that rarefied world!!

[Amukidi]

"the ego vjs will get the gigs whatever because they push themselves in the scene (doesnt matter what they use or are like)"

This is true to a point, but every demo I've been sent has been viewed before reading the shpeil! Obviously with some VJs their reputation goes before them, but when I can - it's all down to the content. I'm booking some artists with almost no experience of playing live, but their work is so beautiful that I know the audience will love it. I'm also negotiating a gig in Portugal, it has a major line up and the promoter is being very particular to point out that he doesn't want the same old stuff he's seen a million times - he's specifically asking for more "cinematic" and "arty" (his words!) work. This fills me with hope, every time a punter walks away from one of these events, they're going to be saying "the visuals were great" - we have a reputation to build and maintain.
Visuals are now an accepted artform - they're everywhere, live music acts, theatre, clubs, festivals etc. The work is out there - get out and take a slice!

[Lucidhouse]

nice one guys, great thread!

Something Luka aka Seex brought up during one of the workshops during the Pomladi festival, was the similarities between clubs and temples of worship.

Have a look at the great temples/churches...booming sound systems and acustics, colourfull lighting shafts through stained glass windows, sculptures and paintings all over the place!!!

Many artist where envolved in creating these art works, all with the purpose of amplifying peoples emotions....

.................................................. ..........................................
quote from MONDO
"why is it that addictive tv, dfuse, light surgeons & other successful vj crews move heavily into arts festivals, tv, international branding & architecture etc?"

My opinion here is that sometimes putting work into a gallery enviroment could be a cop out...why the preference of showing your work in a gallery (where the inteligentsia can deliberate over it for hours) when you can influence so many more people in a club/festival enviroment, the temples of today!

Crap on the pavement and it's called "shit"
Crap in the midle of a gallery and it's called "art"

[revjrbobdodds]

Originally posted by Lucidhouse
Crap on the pavement and it's called "shit"
Crap in the midle of a gallery and it's called "art"

Hmmm, that's pretty didactic ... as is calling certain VJs "ego" VJs.

On galleries: taking club work into a gallery often doesn't work -- the context is different. Just as putting visuals made for thousands at a festival might not work for one person in a living room watching TV. And vice versa. Some work made for a gallery might not work at a festival. It's a positive that we have so many outlets to express all the voices within our own practice. And dissing an opportunity is missing an opportunity, really.

On ego VJs: ego and self-promotion are two different things. As are self-promotion and quality. As is contextual consideration (to get back to galleries). Self-promotion, quality and contextual consideration are not mutually exclusive, and are all tools in making a great event. The audience often reads a performance through the image of the performer ... what Warhol taught us ... so it, too, can be a creative methodology.

Ego gets in the way of all that, true, but you gotta be careful throwing that label at people. They might just be doing sensible self-promotion.

[djnada]

I may be the "old man" of the group, (although I don't feel like it :)! Again, "back in the day" we worked hard at breaking down the walls between "fine art" and "Popular culture."

Lucid writes:My opinion here is that sometimes putting work into a gallery environment could be a cop out...why the preference of showing your work in a gallery (where the inteligentsia can deliberate over it for hours) when you can influence so many more people in a club/festival enviroment, the temples of today!


Anyone who has visited the Palladium in NYC has seen the likes of Jean-Michel Basquiat, Keith Haring, Kenny Sarf, Francesco Clemente and others. Now, the big question for me is this: Is this art form - video, multimedia, interactive, whatever you want to call it - achieving recognition as a viable art form? Part of the beauty of this new form is that it does work to break down barriers between disciplines. Forward Motion Theater, for example, combines dance with virtual realities in real time on the dance floor. Their idea for a blue screen dance floor is awesome! (Gotta go)

[Amukidi]

"Hmmm, that's pretty didactic ... as is calling certain VJs "ego" VJs.
"
Ha! get real pal! This includes ALL artists, not just VJs - throughout history in fact. From Raphael. Dali, Schnabel, Koons, Morrisey, 50 cent, Madonna, Chris Evans(!) just to pluck a few from a fat tree - all these people think (or thought) that they were god's gift to society, Raphael the only one who might have had a point. There's a HUGE difference between a big ego and a professional ability for self promotion, any fool can see that.

[djnada]

OK, Back again. This reminds me of a Wiliam Gibson novel where the "art" of the near future is contained in a cryptic artist-made software/hardware hybrid creation. Being sanctioned in a gallery is what Pierre Bourdieu labels "cultural capital." This does not mean that the artist will necessarily make money, but that the artist has a kind of cultural "seal of approval." This is the kind of recognition that artists from the "Sensation Show" got when they rocked the Brooklyn museum a few years ago. This spun off of the "NEA four" - Robert mapplethorpe, Andreas Serrano, Karen Finley and David Wojnarowicz - whom arch-conservative Jesse Helms villified for receiving tax payer dollars.

Essentially the cultural recognition of the gallery catapults the artist into an area where the artist's statement takes on new and sometimes controversial proportions. I am now working with videotaping a belly dancer who I will composite into a number of jarring and possibly violent scenarios. This is a mulifaceted statement concerning the war, women's roles in society and independence movements everywhere. This will be seen at dance parties, but will attain a new kind of critical recognition in the gallery.

Bottom line - use all of the avenues available to you --- and accept the fact that true ground breaking, cutting edge art does NOT always reap the big bucks! (IE - don't quit yer day job!)

[revjrbobdodds]

djnada has an excellent point about the sanction of the gallery. One of Frieze Magazine's critics gave a talk at Chelsea College of Art once, where he said, more or less, "art is that which the institution sanctions as art, and the history of art is the history of who f***ed who, who pissed who off, who was whom's friend, etc."

But having that sanction can also change the way an audience looks at a work, and give a lot of freedom to the artist to make more subtle, or indeed more bold, statements. And we needn't worry about the artworld not having a critique of its own ego. It has critique aplenty.

David Hickey's essays in "The Invisible Dragon" come immediately to mind. He has also written eloquently about the cultural relationship between pop and high art, the gallery and the museum, and Mapplethorpe and Helms. Really worth reading.

djnada's got it right, use all the opportunities available. To quote Cindy Sherman, "If you can get a show in a shithouse, take it."

[Mbazzy]

DJNada makes a good point here and I can second his opinion .. I wonder what SleepyTom & co would like to add to this discussion as they have crossed that boundary as well with the Gridio installation ...

[Lucidhouse]

good points,

I'm not against the whole gallery thing, in fact I was a co founder and curator of one myself...

But usualy the realy raw, creative stuff is hapening outside of these spaces. Galleries are mostly about packaging and sanitising the work.

"i think we've swerved a bit outside of what this thread was, but hey that's how discusions go.."

[revjrbobdodds]

To get back on the thread, I'd like to return to the idea of whether we should as a whole give a rethink to the way we work. A lot of us individually are going over to AV. And a lot of the industry is changing in a way where DJs will become VJs as well (even if sometimes poor ones) and "mute" VJing will be taken over by lighting folks.

How do we respond? What do we become? How does it change our work (not our jobs)? I'm working hard to go AV and "DVJ."

[neoteo]

as for my case , its really a good thing , i was a music composer before a beat mixing DJ ... and before VJ . and im not a professional VJ ... im a professional video editor ...

now , i have the analog beat mixing hability with thecnics decks and with CDJ pionners , im not a pro , but i can beat mix ... i can put 2 musics with diferent BPMS playing for minutes in sincro .. so i think im not bad ...
i love visuals since forever , ... i think it would be great to be beat mixing with DVDs with great visuals on it , visuals made for each track ...

and sure we have no limits in live performing , i remember one of my best parties , there was some kind of a band playing with the dj music ... but just in some parts .. near the breaks .. and on the ramps ... this guy with a laud snare and splash .... to had even more energie to the music ...

why not adding visuals , effects , transfermodes to the visuals that are comming from the DVD decks ...

once more , if we spend a lot of time doing a visual set for a track ... the chance to become great is bigger the in a live act ...
i olso agree , inspiration is what counts in any kind of event or predone work and home training

the formula

greatness = time spent on it / time of cliptrack

this is not counting the inspiration ...

as all math formulas, there is no human side

[akira_k]

We're trying to go the A/V route as well, but we don't want to leave the VJ-only part aside, because we want to improve on it and see what can be done and how far can we push it. When it comes to VJing in a big club we never get the chance to talk to the DJs, I don't like that much, but I enjoy the challenge of trying to face whatever the DJ comes up with and try to match it on visuals. I agree with the views on the superclub scene, the situation over here is in a state of complete shittyness, and probably it would crash soon, because people are getting tired of paying inane prices for overrated DJs.

This saturday we probably will be doing a special set with a DJ friend, we'll be talking it over beforehand and preparing content specially for it. This is a first-timer for us regarding DJs so we're very excited and I hope it comes through. I wich every DJ would think like this and the promoters too.

[djnada]

Lucidhouse writes:
"I'm not against the whole gallery thing, in fact I was a co founder and curator of one myself...

But usually the really raw, creative stuff is happening outside of these spaces. Galleries are mostly about packaging and sanitising the work."

I couldn't agree more --- with the exception of "art run galleries," of which Lucidhouse seems to have been a part. It's a rough call, since there are not too many artist run galleries, at least in New York, that have a high degree of respect from the art world at large. I was involved in the East Village movement and I ran a gallery called... Nada Gallery (of course!:)). We put a monitor in an old stove and called it "the kitchen" (ya know, after the famous multimedia performance space). I put a fresnel lens on a cardboard box, attached it to a tv, darkened the lights and we had a video "projection." We shot footage in super 8 film, transferred to video through rescreen, pixilated, colorized - all using "optical" rather than electronic effects. We were influenced by people like Jean Cocteau (Blood of the Poet, Orpheus, etc.). Anyhow, do it yourself (diy) galleries WERE the place where the cutting edge stuff WAS happening.

To shift back to topic
("i think we've swerved a bit outside of what this thread was, but hey that's how discusions go..")

I wrote:
We used to do "rescreens" (shooting the screen close up, with colorization effects, etc.) back in the vj/dj booth and throw those out there, in order to texturize and to otherwise rework the many canned videos we were supposed to give our audiences.
My feeling is that the MTV industry thing industrialized video in the 80s.

Mondo writes:
Q? do we metamorphose from vjs in clubs to MTV video producers as we get older?

This is a really scary thought. VJs may now be at that "lucid" place where creativity effortlessly flows, where many individuals are able to contribute to an open community. That could easily shift to the closed world of the few, removed individuals who "run the show" from within the vast corporate structure of viacom, qualcom, clearchannel or disney. Are "canned" visuals on DVDs possibly a path that could lead to such enfranchisement (is that a word?).
I lived this one. We thought our little world in the East Village would last forever, but it was but a blink in the eye of God. Jazz guys used to call this "sellingout." Is it possible to make money without "selling out?" I think so. Stick to your vision!

[spaceman]

...back on the original subject....
Did a gig with D.J. Fubar, the guy came with his own dvd to play...
When i put is in i realised that the whole thing is made from Audio Visualizers server loops (which I had downloaded a long time back, when i first started)....
So, I fire up MD3, call up that old bank of mine, created some text presets and jam away....
At the end of the night chatting with the D.J. he tell me how he realised he got ripped off with the DVD and that the live show we did looked much better....Next time He'll get a V.J. to do the show....

Just a remark thu:
The points of view expressed in this thread remind me of the "Punk" dilema: As soon as a punk band is sucessful they turn into "saleouts", cos to be a "real" punk you have to live on the dole and eat dog food for breakfast.
Seems to me that this debate of "who's a real V.J." and "What is art" is relevant to only a few "intelectuals" within the V.J. comunity itself. The whole point is that everyone should be able express themselves whever it is in a night club or an art galery... or a subway station for that matter. the lines are blurring more everyday anyways, eg: next month I'm doing a gig with a photographer having his exhibition in a night club.....

[bluntfaktory]

i think we're going to be ok , i just did a gig at a club in town that hadn't seen real VJ style visuals before and noticed the difference right away . now having had said that they just about shit they're pants when i told them how much i charge ( which is ok cause i'm back in there next week anyway ) but they for saw the difference and said something about it . i think the same is true for these so called big acts that try to cheep out with a crapy-anything-will-do video or DVD . people notice the lack of production level , because then the images don't make sense if there's no live element . so if we hold up our end and do a good job , it's just going to give others the edge , to they're live show , that figure it out and use a real VJ . :sun:

[Amukidi]

I hope you are right bluntfaktory - and there will probably be many acts that think in the same way, I just don't think we should kid ourselves that there will be many that don't. As we all know, a good DJ coupled with a good VJ is a powerful combination. And there will be a growing number of DJs who will cotton on to this DVD malarky, of that we can be sure.

[fALk]

My feeling is that the MTV industry thing industrialized video in the 80s.


as my history study of the vj evolution has told me. MTV has killed a vital recognised scene right in the beginning of the 80s. After the the launch of MTV 15-20 years had to go by before we came back to a point where we have been before.

THe discussion thread is great but misses the most important point: We have failed to drive the "market" or better drive our opportunities. It seems the "market force" is directing us and all we can do is try to adapt and be there before the DJ, MusicVideoProducers, HobbyFilmers etc enter. I fail to see how we can become "something different" by just complaining here. The last years have shown so much discussion but in the end we are at the same state as before, just got more numerous.
I wrote in my blog before I think (and mere guessing is the only thing that I feel save doing) that there will be a split of VJ as mere video live acts--- maybe accordingly paid as live acts and the AVJ crowd consisting of some DVDVJ spinning the tunes as well or DJs spinning the VideoDVDs with the new pioneer decks. I personally would like to see this happen. Then you could perform with a live band or the such which is more fun anyway (for me) and still provide the visuals for the second row (revenue?). I do not see myself doing the "normal" club thing forever.

[Lucidhouse]

I think the DJ-VJ partnership could be the most vibrant, flexible, reactive and the best of and for both worlds.

I recently posted on a few music/dj related forums that I was looking for a DJ to partner me...the responce was massive, a week later and I'm still getting demo CD's in the post... is it a sign of things to come? Or just another transitory trend?

[Lara]

I've been thinking a lot about VJing as a medium in itself. I think it stands alone as a live performance medium, like dance. It can thrive in diverse spaces, from the gallery to the street to the club-space. Perhaps we stifle ourselves by creating dichotomies- between galleries and club spaces. Maybe we should be taking a more open-ended view to what VJing can become.

I like to look at it in an abstract way, very much as a tool, and that tool can be used in so many different environment. I love what Djnada is saying about its vibrancy.

Spaceman, Dave has been telling me about some of the work you've been doing- the photos he's shown me look fantastic. Taking visuals into other commercial areas like fashion shows; that's brilliant. And the work looked so lovely.

For me I'm hating 'clubland' at the minute. Thinking about playing visuals for 10 hours makes me want to cry. I like to come and play an hour's narrative set and really enjoy myself and present a really high standard of production values that I'm happy with. Of course, this is just me- being a club VJ is wicked. The point being that it would be a shame to deride? me a "hobbyist" or an "intellectual" just because I don't fit a particular "VJ" category.

We should all make the most of our own opportunities creatively and not tell each other who to be or what to play. Questioning things: contexts, content, can only lead to new discoveries and developments.

What a lovely thread :)

[djnada]

Spaceman wrote:
The points of view expressed in this thread remind me of the "Punk" dilema: As soon as a punk band is sucessful they turn into "saleouts", cos to be a "real" punk you have to live on the dole and eat dog food for breakfast.
Seems to me that this debate of "who's a real V.J." and "What is art" is relevant to only a few "intellectuals" within the V.J. comunity itself.

First, anyone should be honored by being at the receiving end of the accusation of being "intellectual." In totalitarian dictatorships "intellectuals" are the first to be eliminated. They are dangerous. They think too much.

Second - I don't know a single "punk" band or any other who did not want to "amke it." The question I am posing is whether or not the process of "making it" destroys the creative foundation, the drive and force that gave birth to your vision in the first place. Yeah, make it, baby, but don't loose your identity in the process!

BTW - I love this conversation. I wrote two chapters in a book called "Captured: A History of Video and Film on the Lower East Side" and am currently waiting for publication of a book on the relationship between artists and gentrification. Is that too "intellectual" fer ya? :) I may approach Phil hartman about showing at the Pioneer theater or Den of Cin this summer.

[revjrbobdodds]

I wrote two chapters in a book called "Captured: A History of Video and Film on the Lower East Side" and am currently waiting for publication of a book on the relationship between artists and gentrification.

Fantastic! Do you by chance know the video artist Alan Sondheim? He was one of my tutors in art school, and a bowling mate. Seriously. :)

I don't think making it necessarily destroys our creativity. You suddenly have bigger budgets, more diverse stages, and more flexibility in what you can make -- so by rights it shouldn't. But perhaps the system that's placed around you can make it more difficult. Suddenly a lot of people make a living based on what you do, and that's huge responsibility for a maker.

The trick is likely balance ... and relevant to this thread, diversity. By using all those potential stages, be they galleries, films, theatres, clubs or whatever, the maker can express differant sides of their creative vision. Given enough luck and planning, they can even then bring these elements together in a single presentation, a la Matthew Barney.

[djnada]

Sondheim sounds real familiar. I'll check the book to see if he's in it. The book is 600 pages long and represents over 100 contributers. Cheers!

[djnada]

Oh, yeah... my real "artist" name is Jim C., as it appears in the book and as most people know me in NYC.:nod: :nod: