PSYNEMA, new generation of visuals

[buzztea]

?The PSYNEMA?
http://www.vision34.de

http://www.vision34.de/people/basti/film/psynemarussiaB.jpg

after being behind the camera all the time, finally we are on the other side!
For the premiere of our first PSYNEMA live act, we had cameras record our show.
See here, the next generation of visuals...
BuzzT & El Geko?s audio-visual Choreography


PSYNEMA show in Russia (http://www.vision34.de/psynema.htm)

[akira_k]

I beg your pardon but, what exactly would be "next generation" about this?

[holly]

Originally posted by kiken
what would be "next generation" about this?
VJs on camera, of course!:D

[trotskythecat]

Congrats on the show! The cutting on the clips, I must say, is a little weird. We only get to see your visuals for maybe 5 seconds at a time, then a shot of each performer, then some studio shot (?). What was this put together for?

[fuussmuuss]

Yeah i dont see it either! Is the round thing on the screen "next generation"???? lol :D

[brain]

pro show, impressive screens - nice to see you were having a good time!

but an unprocessed "fear and loathing in las vegas" sample and some bart simpson... olala! this works ok in a show, but in a "next generation" showreel...? ;)

[buzztea]

...allright then, do it better!

i am looking forward to see that!

Basti

[matthecat]

yay, lets have a competition :jump:

[charlielangridge]

Challenge accepted ;) I do belive that this falls into the remit of "cutting edge"

Downstairs
http://www.avit.info/media/albums/friday-mass-jam/avit_uk03_murph_3663.sized.jpg

Upstairs
http://www.avit.info/media/albums/friday-mass-jam/004_G.sized.jpg http://www.avit.info/media/albums/album21/001_G.jpg

Woo Yay @ Avit :)

[littlecatalyst]

no charlie,
well maybe the AV Lounge was Next Generation... but not the big rig, that was totally "deep space nine":D

[littlecatalyst]

buzztea, 1st off-- welcome to VJC, while we may razz you here you will find it a great place to advance your skills as well as pick good fights ;-)

Originally posted by buzztea
...allright then, do it better!i am looking forward to see that! Basti

well well... 1st off, you kinda brought it on yourself in a way by calling you stuff "the next generation" without really knowing what is actually going on in "our" generation, which as you can see by charlie's one example (i can think of about 50 more) which by the way was much more impressive (upstairs) in r/l than in those pics. there are some dope ass things happening now....

as well as the fact that the simspsons definitly isn't the next generation.. that's really oldschool). i think if you start off blowing your own horn in such a way as to say that everyone here sucks as compared with you-- then you better have THE BEST showreels on the planet, capice? otherwise peopel will both cut your work up as well as showing you what they do (and a lot of the work here is totally dope.... check out other peoples showreels before posting your own... make yourself comfortable and dig in.... see your scene without ego if possible-- you might get a lot out of the experience...

also, I'm pretty sure they sell this in your hometown of "Berlin, Tokyo, SF, Vienna" if not, here it is from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671723650/qid=1084358394/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-5443438-0879336?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), cause looking at your reposnse, do it better! you might get something out of the book...

[Rovastar]

:( I am gutted I'm in net cafe and no quicktime install so I cannot see this great set........from the responses so far how much fun could have been had.

You can always apply to preform at AVIT UK if you want a challenge. :)

[buzztea]

hey all,

listen!
i didnt want to pose in a stupid way and its right, i didnt really follow what was going on in this forum.

anyway, i have been in uncountable festivals and my partner geko was already working as VJ in 1988 when the name VJ wasnt even created yet and we saw great VJs from many different countries.
But what i have NEVER seen was ANYBODY mixing sound and visuals on a big soundsystem.

What i am trying to show here is the main idea of 2 laptops, 3 DVD players, 3 cameras, 2 mixers and 3 CDJs working together in an audio visual choreography on a 200.000Watt system and 5 video screens in front of 8000 people - AND NOT small details like the simpsons or whatever.

If there is something like this, let me know!
i would be happy to see and cooperate!

This section is about inspiration, right?
not competition!
i would be greatful to get inspired!

Basti

[psychodude]

Ok then. You have a big set up. I am inspired to grow a big set up.

Euhm....

[charlielangridge]

Coldcut (http://www.ninjatune.net/coldcut/)
Hexstatic (http://www.hexstatic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/home.html)
Ecelctic Method (http://www.eclecticmethod.net)
Kriel (http://www.kriel.tv)

To name just a few people who are doing big AV stuff.

[Rovastar]

There are many, many people doing audio and visuals together. MOre commonly called AV acts.

In fact AVIT last year had an entire room devote towards it.

Please don't show of by saying how many people have seen your work.....I promise you you will lose on this forum. :)

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by buzztea

But what i have NEVER seen was ANYBODY mixing sound and visuals on a big soundsystem.


...we call such things 'A/V act' on these forums - as in Audio/Video act. while many here will agree with you that this is the way to go in the future, A/V acts have been around for a while.

so basically what you were trying to say is that you have a very big A/V act & that you believe that's the way to go in the future?

[buzztea]

>so basically what you were trying to say is that >you have a very big A/V act & that you believe >that's the way to go in the future?

i am saying we have a reasonable size act and of course this is the way to go in the future!!!
its GREAT fun to do and more people should do it!

>I promise you you will lose on this forum

i never wanted to win anything!
again!!!!: its inspiration - NOT COMPETITION!

i am already happy i hear about MORE professional act doing the same thing as us!

if some guys are still offended, you are not ready to get inspired!

Basti

[Mbazzy]

Some more excellent AV acts :

Exceeda
Madame Chao
Headspace
EBN


Also doing a search on this forum for "AV" should yield massive info for you ...

[sleepytom]

yeh a few people have been doing AV stuff for a while now - even on big soundsystems!
(we built this soundsystem specifically for AV performances http://www.brightonart.org/innerfield/images/Innerfield_angle_view_small.jpg (www.innerfield.co.uk) )

its good to see more people starting to do AV i firmly belive that its the future and we will see many more people developing this kind of show over the next few years.

[LEVLHED]

to be fair, thats not from the Simpsons...its Bender from Futurama:)

I think its great what you're doing, but as far as showreels go there's just not much to go on there....from what I see its not really obvious that you're even doing any video during the show...it comes off as being way more interested in how many people were there than actually showing what was done.
I would like to see more.

[buzztea]

you wanna see more video?

http://www.vision34.de/video.htm

have fun!

thanx all for the feedback!
all showreels welcome!!!

Basti

[seex]

great i support everyone who does A/V shows, but i must say that qality must be the first criteria (probably you chose the wrong clip to publish here on the forum). From my point of view i dont care how many people were looking at the sceen, like a famous czech photographer Jan Saudek said "if my photographs influenced one single person than my work was not vain" I think thats the true spirit of an artist, and thats what i expect to see published here in the inspiration section, show me what was hapening on the screen and what was the sound.

If you want to talk impressive numbers i was doing visuals for the Slovene independence day so i was hired by the goverment and my show was brodcasted live on natonal tv and shown again the next day.

I just loved it, when "a man in black" asked me what do you need to make a show (a Projector 7000 ansi, video wall and i need a new computer cus my old one is not good enough)....no problem were the law....

[LEVLHED]

the links that do work show me much of the same...crowd/performance shots and a few post-production edit effects.
have anything online that shows us what you actually put on the projectors?

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
to be fair, thats not from the Simpsons...its Bender from Futurama:)
there both in there - the simpsons sample is "i hope i didn't brain my damage" from the Chilli Cookoff episode where homer eats hallucinogenic "insanity peppers" - somewhat of a classic episode for AV samplers (i'd say that 70% of the simpsons clips i've seen played by vjs have been from this one episode!)

[buzztea]

i DONT want to talk impressive numbers!
i am not really interested in numbers!

i want to see impressive showreels!

something that catches me!

i am not saying we have it but its rare to find!
our show-video is just some example...

Basti

[seex]

one thing is true tough...

I never saw a show reel that culd capture the feeling of the live show, ther is so many factors that just cant be shown on a show reel and a mayor one is the public, the viewers, also its impossible to contain the feeling of having a big projection (or many of them) in a 600x800 avi.

So i guess that showing what buzzeta pubilshed has a better impression on a promotor, but just misses the point on this forum.

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by buzztea

i want to see impressive showreels!


http://www.guerrillanews.com/ebn/ check these out - not bad considering they are over ten years old now!

a good example of a (prize winning) showreel can be seen here (http://sub.spc.org/vjs/mov/exceeda_2003_winners.mov) -its exceedas winning entry from last years diesel-u-music contest.

[seex]

yes,

now thats inspiring i can imagine what that wuld look like on a big screen.

[disassembler]

NEXT GENERATION????? :scared:

http://www.vision34.de/party/pix/geko2.jpg

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by buzztea
i DONT want to talk impressive numbers!
i am not really interested in numbers!

i want to see impressive showreels!

something that catches me!

i am not saying we have it but its rare to find!
our show-video is just some example...

Basti

hey Basti,
spacedub has been doing A/V for a couple of year's now,
and a small example of it can be seen here..
http://www.vjmud.com/pixy/Showreels/Unknown@4-QT.html

the next generation that you speak off will be one cat mixing DVD-r's
of 5.1 surround...
Do you cat's do that?

Anyhow i'm working on getting 2 of the Pioneer DVD decks to be able to do just that!!

cheers for bring new enthusiam to A/V tho:)

[sleepytom]

shit man you've got cats mixing video - bloody hell i thought that we would be the first to have VJing animals (i was working with dogs but i'll give up now you've gone and beaten me to it) :)

[matthecat]

cats r a lot cleverer than dogs matey :Smoking:

[charlielangridge]

I swear I saw an Ape VJing in Brighton last friday ;)

[buzztea]

...thats what i am talking about!

cool stuff!
thanx spacedub!

Originally posted by VJpixylight:
>cheers for bring new enthusiam to A/V tho

hehe, it was working, hu?

yes, working with those DVJs will be heaven!
i cant wait to get my fingers on them!

Basti

http://www.vision34.de/pix temp/gekobastibunt.jpg

[Rovastar]

*sigh* it has turned into a AV acts are the future debate again.

'Jack of all trades, master of none'
'AV acts for those who are not good enough VJ's '

[charlielangridge]

Originally posted by Rovastar
'AV acts for those who are not good enough VJ's '

...and visualization are for those newbies that can't VJ ?!?!?!

Keep opininons that are designed to insult people to yourself Rova, cos your constant bitching is pissing me off (a i would imagine a lot of other people).

[sleepytom]

wtf rova
go and play with your winamp :D

i don't think there is any debate to be had here - surly it is perfectly obvious that a intergrated show where the music and video work as one is going to be a better experiance than a random DJ/VJ combo - thats not to say that there is no point in random VJing but it rarely comes close to a the kind of experiance that a good av band can produce.

what does 'Jack of all trades, master of none' mean? - i'm sure that james brown's drummer was not so hot on a bass but it doesn't make the whole band shite does it? - a good av act will include experianced musicans and visualists working together to create a show that is greater than the sum of its parts.

[buzztea]

Originally posted by sleepytom
wtf rova
go and play with your winamp :D

>a good av act will include experianced musicans and visualists working together to create a show that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Exactly!
i have been DJing for 10 years before i started to put my foot in the combination of it!

Basti

[Rovastar]

Sorry for the comments I just saw the clip. :)

[littlecatalyst]

...besides i think theis has morphed more into pushing AV to the Next Generation ,at least with the mention of dvj's and 5.1 surround sound.... (yeah thats the way to go, surround sound + 360 visuals (elaborate set up w/router, and/or one of those fisheye beemers and/or high end catalyst)

so even though its ubercool and alienship-landing like, to be on the stage alone, i dont know about the 'must be' a one man band though... (thats a little too superstar for me, but also because) collaborative aspecs rock (especially when you get musicians and visualist jamming out ideas together..) and collectives has something special in a gang like sense... so not totally sure if the next generation is going to be more singular or multiple.... but techwise i think it can be mapped out at least even if peeps are all just tinkering on the parameters so far...

me, i wanna be able to access all of my softs and even my mixer virtually. so me+crew (not one man band) can get onstage and and be like johnny pnumatic accessing loops and effects and instruments with gloves and shit... so the whole band is there and the spectator can't see anything that they see, theyre just bopping around and sometimes look like they're playing air instuments, mostly just accessing stuff and seeing it on their virch goggles.... but the speactators can at least see + hear the output of what inside them

ok thats not now, for me thats the next generation, so far its mostly abletonlive soundforge and then dervish (or dvds) into an old analog synth, soon to get vjamm.... but teh 5.1 sounds HEAVVVY Pix, what does you need to start making stuff in sourroundsound??


btw nice pic basti!

[sleepytom]

surround sound is fundamentally flawed for big venues - it simply cannot work due to the speed that sound travels though the air creating substantial delay problems for anyone who is not standing directly in the middle of the room - turbosound have spent a long time attempting to rectify these issues but really haven't come up with anything that works in large venues. (see the dance tent at glastonbury for a very good example of just how shite large scale surround sound is)

also from a production point of view very few people have proper equipment for producing surround - there are loads of issues when compared to stereo and problems such as phase misalignment are very hard to spot using domestic equipment. - most surround studios are designed for 5.1 Dolby mastering which is only suitable for domestic applications (home cinema).

add to that the impossibility of mixing surround sound live (5.1 DJ mixers? - no such device) and the lack of suitable monitoring technology (5.1 headphones??) and i doubt we will see any successful surround shows for quite some time

[many2]

I did a show with Nuclear Ramjet and Purform (for whom I designed the Black_Box project) a month ago at the SAT here in Montreal and the music was on 8 channels. It seems to have been a lot of work setting up the sound system and mixing boards (and you know how musicians can be picky about sound quality - it was just 4 times worse because we had 4 times as much channels !). The sound was really impressive in the center of the room - it was feeling very real, very physical, but as you moved from the center the impressive effect was degrading (but the sound was good everywhere, you just missed that special immersion feeling).

Also, the Black Box AV performance is made of 4 channels for both audio and video - 360 degrees of visuals and sounds.

Many-2

[akira_k]

Originally posted by buzztea
But what i have NEVER seen was ANYBODY mixing sound and visuals on a big soundsystem. Oh lordy.

My comment, and that of others, came from the bigmouthed remark that is "this is the next generation of visuals". I have not criticized your work. You actually should have checked out what's going on in these forums and the scene in general before making such a remark.

Shots of some guys doing the superstardj pose and all the crowd in their best druggy raver muppet role show me nothing about a visuals act. Obviously this kind of video sells to promoters. But this is not the "inspirational" stuff people use to post in this forum. Check out the other sections, maybe this was a post more aimed at General Chat or Talk wit hVJs? Personally I never understood where to post this kind of stuff, seems like General Chat is TOO general for my liking. Anyone's posted his website link over there.

And what's with this post of a huge picture of you two in here? More superstar dj pose show-off?

Tip for the next show: get one camera in a tripod and shoot the visuals. Nothing else.

Welcome aboard. We're acid ;)

[alangeering]

Originally posted by sleepytom
surround sound is fundamentally flawed for big venues - it simply cannot work due to the speed that sound travels though the air creating substantial delay problems for anyone who is not standing directly in the middle of the room

Yeah, getting an output from a DVD player is the least of your worries. You can just get away with a good surround effect if you're in a space where people are seated (i.e. you know where they are) and you have total freedom to place speakers and you have delay lines. This basically equates to a well kitted out theatre. Doing it in a club wouldn't come out nearly as well.

[alangeering]

Originally posted by kiken
Personally I never understood where to post this kind of stuff, seems like General Chat is TOO general for my liking.


OK, what if this thread came back as a review of a gig that buzztea had done... then it could go into "gig reports". As it is it's not fitting into any section.

Buzztea. If you have had a recent gig and want to write it up (i.e. what happened, how it went, what you leant, what you tried that was new, what excited you, etc.) then head over to the gig reports and set the ball rolling.

Alan G

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by many2
Also, the Black Box AV performance is made of 4 channels for both audio and video - 360 degrees of visuals and sounds.

i know many2... i was thinking of you when i worte "elaborate 360" visuals...

you are definitley on the tip, man

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by littlecatalyst
...but teh 5.1 sounds HEAVVVY Pix, what does you need to start making stuff in sourroundsound??


btw nice pic basti!
yea nice one basti..

Lil,
almost all new PC's sold today are 5.1 ready.
most sound editing software is also 5.1 mixable, and so instead of 2 legs(stereo) you have 6 legs(6 discreet channels) of your finiished track.
these legs then have to be encoded and can be encoded for different formats(DTS, DolbyDigital{AC3}, SRS,
and Windows Media, are the main ones..)

so how do you do a 5.1 A/V mix you ask?

I think the easiest way is to sequence it all, is in Vegas..
Vegas really can be the final process of putting all your audio mixdown, all the video clips you want to use, and mixing it all down with FX insert for both audio and video tracks (built right into the prgram).

I don't know what they call that but it can be done..
have a one man show isn't what I was exactly saying, but instead someone that can do that alone, and/or integrate that into more of a group effort..


:P

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by sleepytom
surround sound is fundamentally flawed for big venues - it simply cannot work due to the speed that sound travels though the air creating substantial delay problems for anyone who is not standing directly in the middle of the room - turbosound have spent a long time attempting to rectify these issues but really haven't come up with anything that works in large venues. (see the dance tent at glastonbury for a very good example of just how shite large scale surround sound is)

Definately have to have a more specialized event, but Domes are the answer in this case..
There is a Audio/Visual DomeFest in New Mexico which is part of a larger
festival called DigiFest http://digifestsouthwest.com/index.php?&MMN_position=8:8
which is going to be trying to make full A/V immerssion work, and Spacedub has a submission into a juried panel for this kind of 5.1 we are talking about here..

also from a production point of view very few people have proper equipment for producing surround - there are loads of issues when compared to stereo and problems such as phase misalignment are very hard to spot using domestic equipment. - most surround studios are designed for 5.1 Dolby mastering which is only suitable for domestic applications (home cinema).
It is really becomming chaper and cheaper...I thought we were talking about the future of visuals here..

add to that the impossibility of mixing surround sound live (5.1 DJ mixers? - no such device)
http://www.pioneerprodjforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=DVJ&Number=78289&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=3&o=&fpart=1

and the lack of suitable monitoring technology (5.1 headphones??) and i doubt we will see any successful surround shows for quite some time
http://www.slcentral.com/zalman-speakers/




This Is the Future!:):)

[sleepytom]

i still dissagree - sure lots of people think its the future but they have no experiance of the real problems that surround creates

yes you can do surround production on a budget in vegas but it is soo much more complex than stereo it is very unlikely that you will create a better piece than by using stereo - look at what happened when stereo was invented - it took people about 10-15 years of it being an accepted standard before people could make well produced stereo tracks that didn't suffer from phase cancelation and muddyness.

live sound is still often run in mono as stereo has real problems scaling up to large venues (when stereo is used the bass is often run in mono to avoid the worse effects of phase missalighnment)

the problem with surround is much more fundamental than having some stuff that is capable of outputting 6 channels - some of the larges PA manufacturers in the world have been trying to make surround systems for years and yet they still are unable to construct something that is a real improvement over stereo (despite spending millions of pounds on the project)

[littlecatalyst]

who wants to play in arenas anyway?

[charlielangridge]

I'm 100% with Tom on this, having rigged more sound systems than most, i can say that 5.1 will never work in a club situation in its current incarnation. I've seen it tried and it failed poorly. As a comparion think about most venues, they have a pair os stacks halfway down, delayed to reinforce. Now think about the complexities of trying to create a 5.1 system with this kind of reinforcement.

As for the mono bass. This is generally done as the human ears cant really tell the direction of bass anyway, due to the low frequency.

[vjpixylight]

I can agree with Tom and Charlie that ot certainly isn't easy, and probably won't transfer to the clubs in perfectly match sound and splendor anytime soon, but it will be in many other enviroments..(Surround theatre in the back of SVU's comes to mind)

I guess whayt I am saying is that the future of A/V won't be in the club's, but it will still be mixed, and ppl out there are looking to the future i hope..

but, I'm justAPixy and don't know nutin but what I know:)

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by littlecatalyst
who wants to play in arenas anyway?

No doubt lil C for that matter, who wants to make art for the masses?
is that what this thread is about??

[FractalStar]

Bad that everything seems so ussual to me> What do you whant replace DJs>DVD sound on my sense lower quality>btw if you do that with Reactor and Comp synchro effector and lights. Surround 5.1 sound as i plannin to do... That would be great, but youre going Worner Brosers way, i think sometime evryone goes to money.... Sorry thats my sugestion. I don't realy whnat to go that way but all seems to go there