WHAT IS A VJ? the sparkling debate

[Jorjo]

English Is a precise langauge.. And meanings are defined.

Too much time is going into arguing about what is an what isnt valid content and systems yada yada.

Since 600+ members is probably a recordable share of the global numbers it may be time for a senseable covering of the point.

Without intending to insult anyone or demean what you do, I will put forward a valid point as to why many of you are not VJs but are something that needs a name of its own to avoid confusion and keep like minded ppl recognizable to each other.

If this was a DJ forum many of you would be asked why you are here.
Traditional Use of the words "disc JOCKY" The jocky directed/juggled between tracks and played tracks recognizable to the public.. Artists. performers, bands and musicians played their own content.
so point one. The visual Jocky to be seen to be a JOCKY must by definition be playing footage recognisable to the public or he is performing his own creations and as such is a performance artist or visualist
The Video jockys traditional job.. as a broadcaster MTV style.. was the links person between known artist's tracks and as a play live VJ was the specilist director with music savy whos job was to get the performers face on the screen to the masses at large concerts and even rave events where the Top of the bill performer couldnet be seen because of the vast numbers of punters.. agian the definition fits, his task was to screen what the crowd wanted to see ( and had paid to see). Since the artists tend to be spontainious in their stage antics, interesting generic beds where and are the fall back for the vj.. (Ok things have moved on where the generics are now a feature in themselves but.. they are still 99%generic background to the event).

The industry hasnt changed.. The VJ is still the guy needed to play the specific and often required content and the interesting generic or themed content in the gaps.

So who is a VJ? and who is an artist? and what is your role or future?
Do you create and play only your own stuff? (like the singer songwriter)

Do you program software to create the main content of your show and are seeking a medium to showcase it? (like the performance artist who can play tunes on the instruments hes made)

Are you a visualizer who creates moving art? and uses the screen as his gallery?

The DJ plays recordings of artists who cannot be reached in person by the public, the term may have developed into DJs who produce and who scratch and who have developed a stand alone style that provides them with the status of the perfomance artist/DJ


The VJ is the same, He provides the visual backdrop for the event when the public cant see the artist along with his own flavor of generics and equivilent to jingles

there was a poll asking are you a vuisician, a visuliser , a whatever or a VJ.
All are valid, the only one that most of the members dont want to be is a VJ in the traditional meaning of the term,
OK fair enough ther term is flexable enough to cover all of the above.. but wheres the VJs in VJ forums... Im one. and the other titlesare each battling for what a VJ should be..

The VJ is what the VJ is and In the forum there are very few and those that are traditional VJs are here are scorned for doing the job as the marketplace requires.

wiat.. before you react.. let me finish. this isnt a rant

commando visulisers.. your market is as valid as that of the VJ but its also a completely diffrent marketplace and one you are creating for yourselves. its also one the traditional VJ isnt interested in. but it has its limatations too.. What is in your content that will keep you in work? it isnt something the punter can ask for by name like they can with a record with a DJ and it isnt known and expected artis and footage like the traditional VJ
The visuliser is an artist, not a jocky, he plays his creations and expects respect for the content of his art (while still limited to a club theam and generics) in fact its a market thats dangerously close to automation and of no great specific interest to the public or such or the art would be popular as a stand alone medium in art gallerys and video hire shops.

for those of you who program and create stunning effects you are equally limited to the nature of the content and the signifigance of your creations form the fast food mentality of the public but if you can make a living and reputation from it,, why the hell not go for it.

VJ variations of members in the forum work in the manner of artists, for the love of their creative art and seek to forward its public awareness...but so do half of the professional film makers in the world, and the public are jaded by the abundance of blockbuster quality who also have the soundtrack at their disposal. so cut the Video jockey with the soilid role some slack.

the role of the VJ is simple and there is an abundance of work for those who would do the job as it already exists

If this was regarding audio ie DJforums.com many of you would be long gone since jingle makers, misucians and synthisiser designers points would be totally off topic.

As it stands The majority of members appear to be complaining of a marketplace that dosnt exist for you yet and is still in development.. Good luck with it.. and I hope you can make it happen inspite of the odds. It will be difficult to drive the public out to watch something that has no intrinsic soundtrack or handles on the content or storyline. Art for arts sake and all that.
but on the traditoinal side of the fence there is a vast amount of work for the VJ who screens the artist to the masses whjile also gaining a personal reputation for himself in the moments where he can have a free hand with the graphics to the point of being a contrast and signifigant highlight to the proceedings.

Unfortunatly, Im left with the slightly bitter taste that the forum thats named after a job that is more populateted with hobbists, vusicians, visulists and the artists then with the kind of stageside VJs id hoped to find here..

its a bit like joining Djforums.com and taking shit from a keyboard player or composer about how your job discription isnt a valid format or occupation.

so may I respectfully ask that a forum for the triditional VJ be established so that the confusion be removed.
jocky issues, problems and cures would then have a place to be aired, addressed and respected as valid in there own right, while the others stay open to all common aspects

perhaps also an individual forum for visualists who intend to perform as the main crowd drawing artist and seek top billing where the issuses of the public display of moving art and accordingly the use of a single laptop used as a solo musician would use his instrument would be as signifigant as an guitarist and his guitar without having to judge him as you would aguitarist in a DJ forum


Short version.
I joined to meet like minded guys instead I found a diversity of talents trying to fit the name VJ to what they do.. traditional Vj is what I do and there are very few around. Since this place is called VJforums Id guess that eventually they will show up.
Id rather there was a dedicated forum here for them among all the new variations and users of the term.
They wont know any other term than VJ, os unless someone wants to start viusions or visulists.com and eveyone move to there.. Im asking that yas all move up a seat and leave room for the few guys who are veteran video jockeys without the new visualists totally kidnapping the existing name and function of the VJ the in this search for the visulists bright new world.

[MoRpH]

I'm not going into a huge rant, just gona speak for myself, I see myself as a VJ in the same way that ppl like scratch perverts, dj craze and dave clarke are DJs, sure they are other interpretations of both terms (VJ and DJ) and I'm sure there is room for everyone to co exist here just fine.......

Do you think radio DJs got shitty and whinged when hiphop turntablists started using the DJ term, or MTV presenters got shitty when ppl started turning up to parties mixing cams and anims to a screen and calling themselves VJs..... please move on, let get back to the points of furthering knowledge (within and without) under the collective banner, and helping each other.... rather than complaining that YOUR term has been hijacked, maybe its just evolving..

Nuff said...

[murph]

***** I think you're mixing up VJing with being an AV tech, like if DJs are people who bring their own sound system and such. VJs mix together video content, similar to the way a DJ does with audio. Some VJs bring their own video systems with them, some play on the TVs or screens installed in the venue, just like DJs. We're not as standardized yet, so we can't just turn up with a book of DVDs or HD media the way a DJ can, but we're moving towards that. (I hope)

I work with the A/V companies in my city all the time, I've never heard any of them claim to be "VJs", and I certainly don't consider switching between a couple cameras to be much of an art form, worthy of the title "jockey".

A VJ has a recognizable style from another VJ. That's what makes him unique, an artist. All the VJs I book at plush I could spot on the screens in a club and tell you who's on the decks.

The only other "VJs" I've ever heard of are of the MTV variety, there's even a bar in town here that hires those types to play music videos, but certainly some guy running the jumbotron at the target center I've never heard of being called a VJ. That's not an art, that's not a jockey, that's a job. A highly skilled job, but a technical job, one that anybody could do, which I'd liken more to your example of the jingle musician.

[infopocalypse]

But *****, you don't really seem at peace with yourself. Whether it be the hijacking of the term (on which I care fuck all... I don't CALL myself anything, nor concern myself with it), or unusable software (on which I agree), or any of the other threads of yours... you seem to be very preoccupied with self-identity.. and it oozes into every portion of your activity here and elsewhere on VJF/VJC, including your profile when you started (that you were a radio DJ, and then various things, and then a VJ, or whatever you'd like to call it).

Personally I know and work with some very large names, including the top three lighting guys in the states, two of whom are the two largest private owners of lighting gear in the world. None of these three, nor any of the large-name DJs or performers I know (and bear in mind that in my life experience I have come into contact with everyone from from big name hip hop acts like Wyclef Jean to members of the Grateful Dead to Carl Cox to former first ladies (of note, only Carl Cox was in a VJ context)) that people who are famous, or important, or the best rarely feel the need to quantify that fact with word after word on how big they are... they leave such ranting to their publicists... and this kind of endless post (and the fact that you have the time to construct such an endless post, which I do not) is NOT good PR.

Personally I think that, due to the fact that you are 37 and, despite your kit, do not have wonderful stories of working internationally... or of driving six hours to work a show... or of doing much of anything (fuck... I'm 20 and I'm up to my 3rd time working with MTV in a professional context) that you are a bitter soul who should not bother embittering us further.

[syzygy]

(Quotes from *****'s original post)

English Is a precise langauge.. And meanings are defined.

English is also an evolving langauge - meanings of words change along with their usage.

'VJ' is a good term to group together the different types of visuals-providers that are around. Most people accept that VJ basically refers to anyone who provides video to go with music.

Traditional Use of the words "disc JOCKY" The jocky directed/juggled between tracks and played tracks recognizable to the public.. Artists. performers, bands and musicians played their own content.

Haven't you been banging on about how you have a set of computers constantly rendering? Doesn't this use of your own material put you outside of your own definition of the traditional VJ?

The industry hasnt changed.. The VJ is still the guy needed to play the specific and often required content and the interesting generic or themed content in the gaps.

Ah.. 'The industry hasn't changed' - usually heard from people who are refusing to accept the truth about an industry that is changing.

The VJ is what the VJ is and In the forum there are very few and those that are traditional VJs are here are scorned for doing the job as the marketplace requires.

The only scorn I have seen is from you - other people seem to accept that everyone can have their own style, scale of rig, approach to creating visuals. You are the only person I have seen who is trying to tell others on this forum that they are less worthy.

so may I respectfully ask that a forum for the triditional VJ be established so that the confusion be removed.

The great thing about the internet is that you don't have to ask - you can register a website and set up a forum if you really don't like any that are already available. I think you might get a bit lonely though, as your lack of manners is sure to drive most people away.

I joined to meet like minded guys instead I found a diversity of talents trying to fit the name VJ to what they do..

Diversity is the best thing about forums like VJForums. Provided everyone can act like adults, we can all learn a lot from each other.

Telling people that they are misusing 'your' term is no way to make friends.

SyZyGY

[brain]

Originally posted by infopocalypse

bear in mind (...) that people who are famous, or important, or the best rarely feel the need to quantify that with word after word on how big they are...

oops... sorry, but please read your post again, infocalypse.

[burstingfist]

First of all, I agree with what MoRpH, murph, and infopocalypse said. I don't think that VJing is a black and white issue. Just like DJing is not. Take a look at some top notch "DJs" like Shadow or Ritchie Hawtin, both of them play their own music (for the most part). So are we not going to call them DJs? I think not. They are dynamic, and experiment with many styles and flavors.

Some people view VJing like new age puppeteering, other see it as a means to trance out the audience while others just want to plug a tape in and hit on chicks. Those are all valid, yet different, perspectives of VJing.

Nothing in life is black or white. Sometimes I want to just play some clips to fit the mood. Other times I want intricate control over some 3D objects. And other times I just want a big circle on the screen for a couple hours. So be it. Go with what you feel, don't let some definition of what you are supposed to be, control how you think and act.

Think. Experiment. Evolve.

[infopocalypse]

no it was solid... I added made it THAT FACT to make it sound better to non-native English speakers, but still...

[Anyone]

a VJ is a VJ is a VJ ...

try and define it more and you're bound to find some VJ contradicting this...

but I think the Jockey element in the word VJ should very much
be accounted for in all definitions.

a traditional jockey rides a horse to win the race.
but who won, the jockey or the horse ?

you can say the same about a VJ
a VJ rides on technology to deliver a notable performance...
but what makes it notable? the tech you choose or the way you operate it ?

I believe none of the VJs out there will answer simply
the jockey or the horse, the choice of technology or the use of it,
but a collaboration between the two...

NE1

[robotfunk]

*****,

I'm sorry our definition of the term VJ does not match yours. I guess its still such a young and changing industry that people haven't agreed to a single definition yet, in a way that most people agree to what a DJ is and does. I think this is the very reason I am interested in the VJ scene. It is not crystallized into something rigid yet, it has many aspects and can still go many ways. It is still possible to help define the term and shape the scene.

You seem to think VJing is a job, just like carpenting. Other people see it as an artform or the visual part of an audiovisual experience. IMO all equally valid points of view.

I do not agree with you that VJing has anything at all to do with MTV jocks, beyond using the same term (unfortunately), a MTV jock is basically a TV presenter, paid to chat inbetween content. I don't think any MTV jock has ever pushed a button to start a clip. Also live video performance art predates MTV VJ's

If you want more discussions about more traditional aspects of VJing instead of geared towards ''what vjing could be", why don't you start some threads about them instead of just bitching at the rest that their views are wrong?

[Jorjo]

There we have it.

All those opinions of what a VJ is or could be.

Its VJ forums is it not? yet the above proves that many want to make it somethimg else.
The only problem with that is that its now so deversified that there is no longer a quantifiable meaning for VJ.. ok its evolving into grey areas.. ie bland

I dont care where ya want to take it to.. as long as you leave a section for VJs whos term was always easily defined and the job had a purpose and scope for the rest.. somewhere in all of this the purpose and the job have been diluted by the weight of numbers doing the diversification..

do what you like lads.. the job will remain since it STILL needs doing..
I guess it was too much to ask that a website that uses its name could have a section that is free from opinions on what could be and deal only with the problems that are specific to the trditional issues that are job specific.

But what the hell, why have a section that deals with more than loops and fills

Go ahaed hammer home your point..
OK The VJ isnt the guy with the mixer the cams and then additional content otherways ..

who is he then?

Not one single post above does anything more than imply that the FULL kit off tool needed to do the TOTAL Job is old and tired.

Want paid for what your do? then its not hard to work out that you need to do what the guy booking you wants to pay for.

VJs get piad to do a job.. wheres the problem.. the only reason why you wouldnt get paid for it is if ppl dont want it.. and 9 times out of ten not getting paid is because what your doing has no market value..

Talks cheap.. opinions are worth even less..

I suggest a forum for the working traditional VJ and get shit for it..
From who? Guys with opinions instead of the few that I joined to find.

Do I want to wade through 50 posts from idealists to find the few relevent to my workplace? Like fuck I do ! Im spending more time dealing with the rants of those who have a limited fashion oriantated outlook on the marketplace

Is it too much to see a a heading in the homepage forums that is there for the guys who use every tool they can to achieve a result, without being told that there wrong every two minutes by guys that have no work limited equipment and limited experiance?

meanwhile the majority of how it should be posts are just trying to achieve the typical output of the Martin eureka system and call it a masterpiece.. then going to great lengths to say why theirs is extra special and has and artistic flare..
Yeah right,, Cg, loops of planes trains and drive throughs and the 3d and sound reactive rest are gonna be SOoooo artistic that the punters will stop partying to stand watching your shit for 4 hrs.
Show me a heading in the forums thats not full of THAT crap.

Im just a guy doin a job and have a fair rep for it.. I wanna hang out with guys doing the same JOB and talk SHOP
. instead of the artistic Egos of guys with fuck all else cept an ability to create so called art that fills a dead space on a wall at an otherwise real event.

Wanna solve that, then add a single fresh forum for shop talk only,
instead of having all the board peppered by purists whos art still gets confused as screensavers by joe public. and Shoptalk gets lost in the mush. We'd have One thats free from the whhooo Haaaa Typified by the posts above.

[syzygy]

***** - every time I start thinking that you have decent point, you have to start being so insulting. You will get what you want much better if you stop ranting so much...

I really don't think you'd be getting so many people arguing with you if you weren't being such an ass, telling everyone that what they do is wrong. From all the posts I've read, it seems that people are only reacting to your insults, rather than setting out to belittle what you do.

Nobody here (from what I have seen, at least) thinks that there is no place for the VJ who has a whole rig (I'd like to own a full rig some day, so that I can get involved in putting on big free parties). What people object to is not what you do but the fact that you keep insisting that anyone who is different to you is of less worth.

I can see some good arguments for having an area of a forum like this that is set aside for discussions of visuals rigs (isn't that sort of what the hardware section is for?) but your childish insults and terrible attitude don't help you make your case.

I can't be bothered to try to discuss these arguments any more -we're not getting anywhere and life is too short. Change your attitude and accept that diversity is reality and you will find that you will get more positive responses to your ideas.

SyZyGy.

[elbows]

You seem to be the one with the ego problem, is your hardware some kind of crude penis extension or something?

Lets face it, you started these attacks on the community, I cant for the life of me understand what exactly you want to talk about on a forum that you cant talk about here.

But fine just carry on insulting everyone and then expect to have a rewarding time here, Im sure that will work, not.

Seriously, what is the problem? If you want to talk about something that we mere mortals couldnt possibly understand, start a thread on the subject, whatever the hell it is, and see what responses you get.

[Jorjo]

Word up asshole..
Thats exactly the kinda shit Im trying to avoid.. but no you wanna keep on taking a pop. .. SO SINCE YOUR HAVING difficulty understanding itIM FUCKED OFF WITH LISTING TO OPINIONS from shitheads with nothing more constructive to add than your post elbows.

Since day one in VJforums Ive had to defend every post.. Im fucking sick off it.. GET IT...
SO if ALL YAS WANNA DO IS react without thinkin.. then What the use of a forum where the Job is ignored while I have to tiptoe round your egos..

Fuck egos. put a heading up for Shop talk and those that can handle it will use it.. those that are all so sensitive.. dont.. Wheres the problem?

Whats with this wimp shit anyways? Fucks sake, between hurting your feelings and scaring the shit out of half of you by suggesting you hang your own projector .. or god forbid carry more than a laptop.. Im hard pushed to see how half of you could ever hope to survive a GIG

So to clear it up.. The first post I put in theis forum got jumped on by james being a nasty fucker. and its been kept going continiously since. SO any chance of a section where I dont have to be listining to Dickheads that wont drop the initial thread where I was forcerd into saying in public that 99% of you are so hung up in your own egos and artistic input that the VJ aspects of it are ignored..

Ive said it ! And every time Im forced to listen to some fool trying to tell me Im wrong all over again.. I SAY IT A GAIN.. so your boared with hereing it... Im boared with saying it. Hence this thread.. IM ASKING FOR ONE PLACE TO POST WHERE I DONT HAVE TO KEEP ANSWERING THE SHIT.. so for the final time.. Fuck off with the arty content will change the world rouitein. I joined to talk to VJs.. guys with mixers and cams and projectiors and real gigs and who happen to have an interest in content.
SO whys the forum full of cry baby artists who are afraid to get out there and do the job as it stands.

We CLEAR yet?

So unless you have a problem or issue that directly relates to VJing dont bother replying to this post.. If it hurt your feelings Tough,,

Quit keeping it going.. Ive been trying to get it to drop BUT NO.. theres always one more prick stiring it..
If your planning on replying, consider this
If you where to come this shit on a GIG id likey tip ya over the balcony for being in the way

I dont give a toss if Im hurting your presious feelings.. In the background Im chatting with the few experienced VJs that want answers and can offer them in return
so if your feeling singled out by my posts thats your own problem. dont bother posting about me and Ill leave you alone..
Is that so hard to understand?


If ya cant talk shop get outta my screen,, This shit is more crap Im haven to sift through to chat with the guys that have something to say based on experience... so if you feel the need to keep it going,, whats that make you?

Go blame James.. he was the guy that started with the attitudes

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by syzygy
The great thing about the internet is that you don't have to ask - you can register a website and set up a forum if you really don't like any that are already available.
SyZyGY Here here..... good call.

[Anyone]

Yeah right,, Cg, loops of planes trains and drive throughs and the 3d and sound reactive rest are gonna be SOoooo artistic that the punters will stop partying to stand watching your shit for 4 hrs.
Show me a heading in the forums thats not full of THAT crap.


***** ( I should say Dickbreath, but I wont ... damn I just did ! )

if you think this is what makes a good VJ performance,
you are SOooooo wrong... VJing is about collaborating between the DJ
(or band), the lighting guy and the crowd.

if punters are stopping partying because of your visuals,
you're not doing your job. Visuals are more about creating
an ambiance, than grabbing all the attention,

like you are trying to do in this website with
your NONCONTRUCTIVE rants.
BTW, you are spending so much time writing up crap
that I doubt you have any time left to produce any decent visuals.

shape up or ship out...

you're gonna have to face the fact that not everyone will agree with you,
I for one speak from experience, that's what you get when you go on a forum: debate.

if everyone agreed with you, wouldnt that be more bland than whatever the hell you were complaining about in the first place ?


NE1 :cool:

[Amukidi]

I did tell myself I'd not get involved in another of these verbose ranting sessions, but I can't resist it!
Hell, I'm confused now - there's me thinking that I was a VJ (and I'm not overly comfortable with this title) but all along, I've obviously got myself confused and am, in fact, an "ass hole". Here's how I see it:
I produce my own animations
I get booked for plenty of gigs - 3 festivals and numerous London clubs so far this year
I get great feedback from my audience
I don't own mixers, screens and projectors as they always seem to be present wherevever I perform
I get paid
I get asked back
Where, oh where am I getting it so wrong?
Answers on a postcard (preferably no more than 50 words - there's a challenge *****!),

[murph]

*****, you bitch about pandering to Egos, but jesus christ man, look in the mirror. You've got an ego the size of texas, you appear to be convinced that you're god's gift to a video screen, and that everything you say is instant fact.

I respect the fact that you have a lot of gear, enough to handle a large scale show without renting stuff. But you've consistently and rudely stated as fact that VJs without all the gear you have are worthless and can't do the job. They might not be able to do a stadium gig without some help, but 90% of us aren't interested in that kind of work at all.

You seem to have no respect for people who do things differently from you, and that's why we're so pissy. I love to talk shop, work out real solutions to real problems. I don't like being told that my problems or my solutions are idiotic because I don't have a huge budget to throw at it, or because it's not targeted at the stadium and shareholder's meeting market. Some of us do this for *gasp* FUN.

If I wanted to do that stuff for a living, I could, and then I might want to know about that stuff, but I'd be talking to other people in the professional production industry, not to a bunch of VJs. I'd also be making less than half the money I was making a year ago, for twice the work. Fuck that, the more money and time I have, the more I get to spend on my hobbies, like VJing.

The point is, your path may not be my choice, but when you ask about the best way to hang a truss to hold a 3-screen setup from the top of a retractable roof dome, I'm not calling you a moron and telling you that you're stupid because you're not just stretching some spandex to a couple cables.

In the thread about the software scan converters, you came into an otherwise respectful conversation with this:

Besides Whats this Bizzare BULLSHIT idea of trying to bring low res up to composite? surely ta fuck if VJs are ever going to be taken seriously, we need to be working at At very least broadcast composite res, instead of fucking about with mickey mouse stuff?

IMO unless we are developing o/p at composite minamum from a higher res, we are wasting time on junk.

And followed that up by ranting on about how everybody in this forum is a weakling who can't carry some stuff around, just because one guy made a comment that he'd like to be able to do a 3hr set from a single laptop in a small bar for a friend. You also suggested that the whole industry was being driven by guys like this, just because we are talking about how we'd like to see one piece of software written.

Quit being disrespectful, quit swearing, quit putting down people who are doing something different from you, and maybe start talking about whatever it is you want to talk about, and maybe you'll get some good responses. (like the screen thread, that was good, respectful stuff)

I'm ready to bury the hatchet if you're ready to start acting like an adult and a professional.

[Jorjo]

First Jaffa.
By posting on issues like Visuals being same'y and seeking out the info on industry std equipment Jaffa Your perspective is of value to me.

As for the rest of the Quips and quotes about egos, Im kinda Fucked off at being accused of being egotistical.. Three times Iv posted that Im just a guy doing a job with a fair reputation for it. WHile in return Im getting EGO MANIACS replying that Im the problem for pointing out that there ART has little interest.

Take the post from anyone as an example.

He takes the points I made, Then responds in a way that makes exactly the same point, but makes out that I have posted the opposite..

quote (anyone)
if you think this is what makes a good VJ performance,
you are SOooooo wrong... VJing is about collaborating between the DJ
(or band), the lighting guy and the crowd.
un quote

And what the fuck where you reading? THAT WAS EXACTLY MY POINT BUT SINCE YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT READ THE POSTS

So once again for "ANYONE" I have only the tools to do the JOB. and fuck all ego involved in JUST GOING TO WORK, but any pissed of at rants from ego drivein assholes like you, who Think this carer will bring you stardom, when your posts show that you hardly even qualify to cover half of the tasks involved in a normal event.

Again you have typified the mentality of the ego drivin idealist

SO since ANYONE has fail to grasp the basic point.. Here we go again.

kindergarden style

VJ
Needs total control of the screen.
Total contol means
hardware, software, secondary content, Live feeds, comunications and a knowlage base of everything that involves.

It does not mean you have to own it.
It means you need to know about it

My point is that many of the forum, not only dont know or want to expand thier knowlage into those basic areas, But instead activly rant that those issues are unimportant based on their limited experience.. Then ACT like a total dickhead by posting a wordy piece of meaningless bulshit as "anyone" just did.

Low rez. How could that be an issue? Common sense dictates yeah you can choose to go low res and get by on it, but how can it be put forward as a place to work towards?
A vj working in high rez can also choose to use low, Anybody promoting the idea of low rez will do, is slicing off half the marketplace.. same with the rest of the issues.

Just because you do it one way don't make it right, that also applys to me. My difference is I don't do it my way. I make a point of doing it using the most sucessfully versitily ways the industry has available at any time.

So why all the rants? Because posts like "anyones" try to slice off a little bit of the pie that is VJ, and claim that all there is and this is how its done then be the expert ego drivin twit thats doing that small bit.

First hand experience of heavyweight gigs tells me that cuing and communications systems top link you, Backstage , your camera man and the lighting guys, is more important to a gig than cute content. Yet those that havent experienced that CLIAM EXPERT VJ status, while the section of the market they opperate in is bing automated under them, BUT HEY,, I get to be the bad guy,, For what? offering to tip them the rest? With that attidude you can go fuck yerself.. give me new guys that want to VJ with their eyes open and get more out of it, Guys like Jaffa who wants to know ALL he can find out about the VJ industry instead of partitioning it off into little insignifigant bits (hence I post him a How too for the MX50 , Or scyz about temp screens)
As for the rest of the "MY content is better than your content" jerks.. Word up, your content is crap unless its up on screen.
Content dosnt get booked. VJs Do! so if you wanna carry on being wonderful artists in your neich, thats fine, Leave me the FUCK be to do the Job, and talk to the guys who are also Doing the JOB, where content is secondary to professional know how.

Funnyt how the guys that do the Jerk attitude are the same ones a few weeks later asking how to do the things they where critisizing.
I have a Bunch of VJ equipment because its needed. It may not be needed to do a bit of the market, but if you dont need it lucky you. who are you gonna ask about it if your pissing of the few guys that already have it?
So no Im not doing ego, Im pointing out that if you dont need it then you dont have the high ground to critisise me for using it. Instead of asshole posts youd do better to wonder why Id buy it.

I joined to seek out more, Instead Im finding verbose bullshit from a large percentage of instant experts and very few post from guys that even have a background in the industry.
Hence Id like to see a shop talk section to bring that stuff into one area. since clearly its of no interest to 90% of the group at present.

That section would have a damn good database of how toos and work rounds and probably eye opening std ways of solving issues

SO "anyone" are you too DIM to see sense in that?
or are you going to post this all again but imply that I said the opposite?

[infopocalypse]

1. your posts are more verbose than even mine ever were... you spend 100 lines talking about something you could say in 10.

2. The biggest names in the VJ world, sans Tomato, do not work with a camera guy.

3. If you're so fucking big, how come I've never heard of you?

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by infopocalypse



3. If you're so fucking big, how come I've never heard of you?

:rolleyes:
I can ask you the same.

You have the the most experienced VJ in the world lurking in the group and youve obviously never heard of him either.

Shut up james. and go do your homework.
I aint me by a long way
Let me give you a very cryptic starting point
"Oxygen". JMJ, and yeah hes used Cams.

[elbows]

Its nice to think that famous well established people read these forums, but I dont see how it makes any difference to this argument.

As I said before, unless such VJs post here then they will obviosuly never be properly represented in the debates here, so the best thing you can do is post about what you want but dont start inslting people or theres a backlash.

I did not mean to insult you so bad but as I had tried rationally to answer your points in the other thred, but you ignored my points, and as you had so insulted so many people I could not help but post my harsh words against you.

If you recall my other post I have a deep interest in getting good kit and researching new things and developing hardware and not doing any real shows till I am well polished in all aspects, so I dont see how I fail in living up to your criteria for people you want to talk with here.

Anyway isnt the point that absolutely everyone will see VJing as something slightly different, that everyone has their own standards, their own agenda and their own ideas about what aspects are important to them?

Do we have any right to judge eachothers work, style, hardware or shows? Mostly we dont know who eachother are let alone how we really are as humans or what our shows are like.

I dont believe anyone here really wants to fight over this, especially when this argument will just carry on as too many different issues are merged into one, and it has become too personal to be just about philosophical or psychological or hardware stuff now.

Anyway thats definately the last from me on this, I'll hopefully see you in some other threadfs about development and technical stuff that isnt so emotionally charged ;)

[infopocalypse]

There's a major difference here *****... I never claimed to be the be-all-end-all of VJing. To me it is, on levels, a job, and a job I am VERY passionate about, and I know it isn't you *****.

But you want to talk go and do your homework than I would love to see you actually be able to talk tech. Go ahead... tell me exactly how to do a fade analog/digital? Tell me how to rewire a WX-50? Tell me the specs of the Catalyst lighting/video boards that exist? The max temperature of easily procurable 5.6" TFT LCDs? I find it very ironic that, for someone who brags about one set of equipment as if it were his other, you seem to know fuck all of the capabilities of what you own. I whole heartedly agree that the same is basically true for many, many people on this forum... but you have shown nothing more than financing, and a low degree of that. It's not like you're sitting with 25 projectors in a warehouse somewhere, huge fast fold screens, renting out your LED video wall to do visuals for WMC, now are you? Plus if you really want to take the whole A/V company seriously then let's be honest. ANY serious A/V company owns a wide variety of gear, not just WX-50s but everything from a low-end Sima to a high-end Sony. They own truss systems, chain motors galore, a shitload of lights (albeit some people here try to get by on owning bupkis, which means a lot of lekos and maybe 6 technobeams... to which I laugh and tell them I know people who own 80 technobeams), multiple projectors of different lumen ratings. I strongly doubt you are in that group. Sure, you might have two WX-50s... a few projectors and a few screens, but you have no where near the kit of even a local stage company doing shows for whomever (the local stage company here owns around 200 lekos, about 30 technobeams, about 15 projectors, a slew of screens, seven high end lighting boards, and a smattering of video mixers (albeit, as they don't do video as often, they're weaker in that respect)).

Fuck off mate. You're not fooling anyone.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by infopocalypse
There's a major difference here *****... I never claimed to be the be-all-end-all of VJing.

I strongly doubt you are in that group. Sure, you might have two WX-50s... a few projectors and a few screens, but you have no where near the kit of even a local stage company

Fuck off mate. You're not fooling anyone.
WX-50? Twat.. You mean wj-MX-50?
James where you born ignorant? or did it take years of practice?

One Idont claim to be the be all and end all of VJing, I claim only what I am.. Out there doing it at the sharp end.
As for what you strongly Doubt.. as usual you dont seem to value facts,, and as usual you dont have any. Since I havent told you what I have your guessing, and As usual you judging me by your standards, and even boworoing a few standards from your local stage hire company.

Perhaps if anyone should fuck off, It would be better if it was you.
since from day one your reputation as an asshole precedded you along with several pms from your peers suggesting I ignore you and you reputation for being an aroggant jerk.

I can chat with the newbies the intermediates and the high ends about what I do in the field , But while Im getting shyte fron Lightweights light you, Is there any point?

Ive read your posts, any in general your appear to be obnoxoius to anyone who is actually out VJing. Get a life.
meanwile your kinda crap is probably the main reason that the biggies dont post here.

Based on your ill informed knee jerk resposnses why would they bother?

The members who pmed on day one where right about you.
But James is toooooo stooopoid to let it go.


Originally posted by infopocalypse
There's a major difference here *****... I never claimed to be the be-all-end-all of VJing.



If your trying to imply That I did calim to be the be all and end all of VJing,
Back it up!
find that post and quote it word for word. OR be seen in public as the delusional trouble maker that your are.

Piss off James your a shit stirrer, and apparently well know for it.

[many2]

Originally posted by *****


Piss off James your a shit stirrer, and apparently well know for it.

In fact, there was no shit being stirred before you came, *****. Is that clear enough for you ?

Many-2

[murph]

exactly, this was a surprisingly respectful forum before you showed up, have some respect for others and we'll have some respect for you.

[Anyone]

ok *****,

I'm going to end this conversation the only possible way
that will make you happy:

of every single comments mentionned,
you are right and the whole community of VJs
on this forum is wrong...

[Rovastar]

Lol at this thread.:):D

***** you create a thread with obvious controversial subject matter and seem to get annoyed when people respond to it.:) If you are so annoyed by the people here why post?

But the subject ?what is a VJ?? is a strange one still. I am probably at the opposite end of the spectrum I am more interested in creating ?visual stimulation? for people to enjoy more than ?traditional? VJ?ing. So maybe I am not a VJ and on the limited work I have done never actually say the term VJ. Just visual by me.

A common analogy used if linking VJ?ing to DJ?ing now these are very different and although there my be no better analogy this still isn?t always a good one. I mean some DJ?s don?t mix (radio 1 mainstream pop Dj for example)but they are called DJ?s and, as mention before, creative musical artist like you Hawtin and Aphex Twin sometimes use a very small amount actual records but are still doing a ?DJ? set. ?We? (maybe not me) are in the same boat?

A mean if DJForums.com was about would Richard James, Carl Cox and Chris Evans have the same answer as to what is a DJ? Also about the why don?t the ?big names? post is the same answer as why these DJ?s would not post if such a forum existed.:)

For me I thought these forums are for all aspects of VJ?ing (it is the closest thing I have found to ?global? community). Eg VJo and the like are popular ?tools? for the whole visual experience. So we can talk about that surely just as lighting and other thing add to the experience. I suppose you could be a VJ with just lasers of something (maybe now or in the future) so lighting comes into it too.

I would like to see chat about creating new music reacting and beat detection algorithms as I know some of you use this CG real time live music stuff too but also know that does not interest any of you people.

(edit: and this thread is in the forums of:
The Future
Dream & discuss about the future of visuals, technologies and "the scene" :)

after all.:) )



Originally posted by Many2

In fact, there was no shit being stirred before you came, *****. Is that clear enough for you ?

Damn I wanted to be the first.:)

[Jorjo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rovastar
[B]Lol at this thread.:):D

***** you create a thread with obvious controversial subject matter and seem to get annoyed when people respond to it

I would like to see chat about creating new music reacting and beat detection algorithms as I know some of you use this CG real time live music stuff too but also know that does not interest any of you people.


[QUOTE][

Controversial is healthy.
go read the first post in the thread again, its open and general, the over reactions to it show narrowmindedness and the responses are personal attacks.

I agree there should be interest in beat detection softs but your suggestions fly in the face of whats concidered VJing around here

hehehe rova your posts are informed and an make the grey matter take notice, look at the responses im getting. Huffy petulant playground crap that rather than address the debate turn instead to personal attack. I guess that when in rome!
If all this is how VJF faces contraversey, what the hell, I can match the ill mannered point for point.
The problem would appear to be there is always gonna be some asshole ignore the issues and attack because they feel threatened by the content..
good luck with your softs man, Anyone put out of work by it has no one to blame but themselves :)
Just keep postin Rova, when the guys that are over reacting are finished yelling. some off the sense in your posts will have got through, just don't expect to be popular.. The messanger always gets shot

Ps Yeah id agree with you that your probably a visulist, seems as valid as any a name, but at least it defines your area of expertise if someone needs info in that area. thats a concept that is having difficulty floating in these waters.

[elbows]

All well and good except of course you did not mention that you started this thread only after getting into arguments with people on a thread in the developers forum.

In your first post in that thread you instantly started using words like bullshit and mickey mouse. Your second post on that thread launched into an attack on Morph, and then your trhird started attacking the laptop VJ philosophy.

Problem is, that was a thread about developing an app that would be useful to VJs who want to work with that laptop model. It doesnt sound like you have any use for a software scan converter, so my question is why were you even posting in that thread? That development was clearly of interest to some people, so why just go in there an poo poo the whole concept?

So what Im saying is, if threads have nothing to do with your personal VJ work, dont read the bloody things in the first place. But I highly doubt you need a forum specially for your end of stuff - why would you? Is software,hardware,development, business side not enough? What exactly would the qualifications be for posting in this forum you want?

See its all about solutions. There is a very good reason to re-invent the wheel if the original wheel was out of the price range of most people, and new technology made software able to emulate satisfactorarily what could only be previously be achieved with very expensive kit. Sure it may be foolish to try to say they will achieve the same quality result, but it is making that result possible for that person within their budget that is the aim. If it isnt for you then please ignore it.

I dont see how anyone who goes back and reads the soft-scan thread can see anything other than you jumping in and starting the insults, then starting this thread here to continue the debate knowing full well that it would continue with the same people arging the same points.

You never answer me when I ask you simple questions like "whats to stop you talking about what you want to on this forum", becuase theres nothing to stop you except your own need to attack people here for reasons that I dont understand. Anyway, you have demonstrated that you are quite capable of ignoring many of my points when you reply, so simply apply the same formula to threads you dont like on the board and Im sure we'll all be dancing in a happy land of harmony quicker than you can say "Jean Michael Jarre has a very nice optical harp"

[murph]

Originally posted by *****

go read the first post in the thread again, its open and general, the over reactions to it show narrowmindedness and the responses are personal attacks.


No *****, your first post was not open or general. If it had been, you might have had better responses. The "what is a VJ" or "what do we call ourselves?" discussion has been going for years, and the best concensus I've found is that it's different for everybody. Which definitely makes for a good discussion, when people aren't being presumptuous.

Most of your first post in this thread was asking a question, "what is a VJ to you?", that's good. But for much of that post you proceeded to tell us how you're a traditional VJ, and how you don't see any VJs here, and suggest that a new forum should be created for us so you can hang out here with the "real" VJs. If you'd have even said "I think..." or "in my opinion..." or "the way I see it...", but no, you present your opinion, your point of view, as the factual basis for this thread, which many of us dissagree with, which is what will make this thread interesting, that is, hearing how others define the term VJ. I don't mind hearing about how you define the term VJ, but I do mind being told I'm not one before the thread can even get started.

I'd really like to hear how you define what a VJ is, because I seem to see a lot from you about how all these other people aren't VJs, but not a lot on what you do that's so different from what any of the rest of us are doing.

I think I'm a VJ. I mix works with a video mixer that I or mostly others have made in a way that creates a final product wholly different or at least more interesting than the original content. The DJ analogy. Some, like rova, are more original content producers, and don't really fit with the DJ analogy, more like a live PA or something totally different. (Vusician? Visualist? Artist? Video Programmer?) Some are content producers who then bring their stuff into my kind of performance style, the way DJs like richie hawtin do. I'd call them VJs too. My definition of a VJ is very content oriented, I think the screens and projectors and such can come from the VJ, or they can be provided by the promoter or the venue, or by an A/V rental house, or whatever. My crew and I own this kind of stuff and can do the production work on fairly large events, but most of the VJs I book at the Quest don't, as they haven't had the luxury of the money we've made to purchase that gear, but I consider them VJs because they're still performance video artists with their own unique styles.

From what I've been able to gather from your posts, it sounds to me like you define the VJ in a very hardware oriented sense, as the guy setting up the screens, projectors, cameras, mixers, etc for any large event, that may include his own artistic content, but is primarily there to serve a specific staging purpose for the event. Tell me what I'm missing, and how that's different from me or about 40% of the people here, who also have lots of that gear, just maybe on a smaller scale than you. (as we don't do this for a living)

[krezrock]

http://209.15.12.10/Trailer/images/uf10.jpg

Yo yO!! iM da bAdestAssed vj in da whOle wIdE wUrld booyee!!

yaLL maFuka's dOn't eVen kNow wHat tIme it iZ.

smOkIn maaD blUntZ whIle gIrlZ gOne wiLd iZ beAmiN iN thE hiZZy.

[Jorjo]

thats a more than fair question elbows.

And most of what youve said about how you see the job in it reflects my own standpoint..
my big diffrence is that I cant agree with any member who excludes a chunk of the job as being Old fashioned or tired or boring.
Hence I crack up when there are people how limit the role of the VJ. It something that Ive worked for years at pushing the limits and possibilitys annly to jion a wed group where theres an element who have activly said "You dont need all that". Im saying that as a VJ I do, and I need more to push the possibiltys even further. Im actualy being kind by defining anyone who feels that their role of just showing their content as a visulist because is such a small part of the scope.
What Im I doing thats so diffrent to you? Not much I hope.
But Im doing a hell of a lot diffrent from a guy that limits his options by choice.
All im asking for is a section on the site where the visulists dont feel the need to attack conversations that exclude them for no other reason than that cant at that level.

EG, Curently im working on a project for a band who want to emulate the U2 effect of the car headlights comming off the screen to sweep the crowd. Ok so its an oldie, The twist they want is for a UFO to fly onscreen to screen front then the projection be seen to pump smoke, At that point the smoke machines above the screen jet smoke down in front (60ft screen) the projection will then have a 3d effect on the smoke.
heres the twist.. There needs to be a goldenscan and a manwinch. to lift the singer somewhere in the smoke so the down beam hits him but doesnt fuck up the ambient during the lift..
Now thats all part of Vjing.. wanna tell me where on the boards I can find the guys all in one place that work at that level?
or why I have to listen meanwhile to dozens of posts about laptops, Whos disputing computers? Im not, Hell man 99% of cg content that I use is done in lightwave, but content isnt a big deal, concept is more important. The suble difference is that I know everything i do content ways is pointless unless its used in context. there for all content is junk unless there is the right occasion to play it..
Agian those who DJ, can tell you that Their music rocks.
But Carl Cox is pure rubbish, if you put him in to do a wedding disco.. Ie value of content is only relevent to the the nature of the event. SO no im not a hardware junky, but im not a content junky either perhaps Im a concept junky where content and hardware must combine to get 110% from a gig, and that cant be guarranteed when you hire in or use automation

The ufo thing so far in tests has needed 4 1500wt strobes a uv cannon, a chicken wire cage to defuse/mold the smoke, 1 x92 barco and 2 x63s for the sides and 9 goldenscans plus a hog2 to control the room ambient. not to mention the high rez rendering of the mian footage just to pull of a 5 min effect the real problem in the internal refraction in the smoke from the scan as the smoke breaks up.

perhaps the confision over me having little interest in content as defined in the group is that footage is always the easy bit, its the live intagration that is always gonna be the Vjs biggest challange. Yet so many in the gruop not only havent yet discoverd that but meanwhile are activly bitching about no money no respect and no work when there are ppl out there chucking money out for projects that need vjs to do shit like the above.
so do you blam me for asking in a VJ forum, Where are they?
Where the concert guys that run cams and effects on bands then padout the screen for the Djs after?
Their either not here or not posting. cause the commando guys wont suffer for the wealth of know how from that background, if only they had the sense to realise that those gigs happen and the level of Vjs on them arnt a threat, their an asset to the forum.
As a Vj working in that environment, I see no reason so far to share trade tips with those who working at a level thats to be honest, piss easy to cover providing you spend a few quid on the tools while they cliam superiority because of the quality of content
.
Play fair elbows, If I post a how to, when do I see one back and who from?
where are the tips on cam stock and new coms advancments. wheres the shop talk from the pro market? seems to me that If i mention Pro in the forum there whole place gos up in arms while everybody defends the right to play for fun.

Wheres the problem in having a section for the VJs that are full time and working for a living? or are you telling me that I dont fit and am not welcome because I am? I dont think for a minute that thats the case, but id like to be able to post in a single section that deals with pro issues with out being accused of being egotistical.. Professional means fulltime occupation, amature means hobby. Why the fuck should I take shit because my job is to VJ
any twat that feels insulted for being refered to as amature or semi pro.. needs to grow up. (if your reacting to that then you have defined yourself folks)

Ill ask it straight, How many full time VJs are there in here and secondly hoiw many have a clue as to what im talking about

or was it takin for granted that Vjing is just a hobby

[murph]

*****, thanks a lot for that reply. It was respectful, straightforward, and told us exactly where you're coming from.

You're right, most of the posters on here are not at your production level. I've always assumed that the guys doing your kind of thing are too busy off doing their thing, or just are at a point where they're not going to learn much from folks like us. Most of us are hobbyists, people who aren't really interested in much beyond a decent sized rave. I know I'm not, at least at the moment.

I also do wish more people like you were on here, to give us that perspective. People like OVT and Tomato and the folks working with U2 or Tool or whatever. I think Johnny Dekam, the guy doing the visuals for the Sasha & Digweed Delta Heavy tour, is lurking on the eyecandy list, as is OVT, but they rarely post. (why would they? Not enough of their peers, or their peers consider those things "competitive advantage") They get their information from trade journals about stage/lighting/pro video production, and from experience.

I think a lot of our conflicts have come from not understanding that we're doing different things. Like cameras... when it's a small enough event where everyone can see the DJ, like the events that I'd say 60% of us have as our bread and butter, using a camera on the DJ is dumb. When the screens aren't there to provide a bigger picture for the kids in the stadium nosebleed, you expect them to be showing something that really adds to the show, to be another aspect of performance, like the lighting. That's where I am, and that's why I don't usually use a camera in my rig. I'm also almost exclusively playing with techno music of some sort, cuz that's what I like, and that's why I got into this. Most of the folks on here are in the same position, whereas you're doing shows that aren't even musical at all sometimes.

There's definitely a variety of people doing a variety of different types of shows here. Most of them are not like yours *****, but ideally I'd hope we could hear more from folks like you, though it probably won't be a huge resource for you.

I'm currently working on my first music video, (with people who know more about shooting and editing than me of course) it might end up on mtv in europe, I'll let you kids know if it does. (though this video is definitely very different than the kind of thing we do when we VJ with him on tour, it's a good learning experience for me)

[Rovastar]

Arrah I have to read all the other thread to get up to date on this topic. :);)

I somehow have been dragged into the agruement in there too.:);)

lol

Too much reading.

[Jorjo]

Fuck !!!

lol Thanx murph.. sense of it all at last.

hehehe Mate everyone uses the net, even the biggst holywood stars must be up here some place.

Since day one i been saying that Im willing to help where I can.

Why did you think I was so puzzled about the whole equipment thing? VJ equipment is FREE.. you just go for a Job that needs it and price it into your tender, if they book ya, you walk away with the equipment for a night or twos work.

As for the level most of the forums is at, fine you don't need cams and coms, but hell why not know about that shit in advance?

Even yahoo forums are plagued with adds for mini tranmitter cams circa $100 that although crap will still give you an edge by havin a cam or two to pull of stunning tricks and special effects.

Thats all old news in the high end, the guys in that market figure the majority here would be doing it by now too.
Heeem i guess if you guys arnt doing it Ill dig them out again LOL :)

BTW there was a fair queastion as to why I was in the sotfware thread in the first place.. easy,, i was watching for some one who's caught on to hooking dome cam controls ( so the dome can follow the scansbeam ) to DMX and or DMX out from a clip player to control lighting insync form whats happining in the clip, aka the car headlight trick from U2, cause as it stands its a coms and cue issue to have the lighting guys handle it, which builds in obvious room for fuckups.. Ok I admit I was harsh but the thinking was "wtf? buy a hardware scanny and leave the guys to create something that hasnt been effectivly addressed yet" Ie something that the industry is ready to pay big for.

And Again Thanks for the agreeable response, may that be the first of many.

G

[wellREDman]

***** why didn'ja just ask,
i think Midivid interfaces with dmx,
url is at audiovisualizers

for my2cents on the VJ thing
I think anyone who messes about with video in front of an audience is a vj(or trying to be)
what you do should have a bigger title,
Production effects supervisor or summat,
the vj's just th guy drivein the mixer or the mouse ,
a part of the team in ur context

[sleepytom]

sound reinforcement
lighting design
show control
pyrotechnics
production management
etc etc are all good skills and important jobs in the entertainment industry but you can't have ago at a bunch of vidiots for not understanding the ins and outs of all of these things. for gods sake most people can't even work an mx50 (with or without its full name) let alone an mx50 an omnidrive and a hog

how many sound engineers can point to a VDA? how many VJs know the diffrence between 1st and second order crossovers? who fucking cares? lets just get on with the job - i'm sure there are plenty of lighting designers sites out there that can help you with any DMX questions you have (check yahoo groups) in the mean time lets ask the question again - what is a vj?

I think that anyone who uses video live in a non linea fasion (ie not just played off one tape) is a VJ -they don't NEED to understand the latest gear and they don't NEED a huge background in sound engineering or lighting design they don't NEED to own any gear. People who can combine several extra skills alongside there VJing will get more gigs / make more money but that isn't eveyones aim in this game and realistically many of the people you seem so upset with are doing just this - the only difrence is that they are combining there VJing skills with those of computer programers or web designers rather than production managers and lighting engineers

i'd be very suprised if you could make even a simple program in say visual basic - but you don't see anyone suggesting that this will impact upon your ability as a VJ. why do you feel its ok to slag them off for not understanding lighting desks and smoke machines???


btw for your ufo cheese fest you could probably use dataron trax (http://www.dataton.com/) to control the whole thing (i thought that you'd know that though as its a pro show control system)

[Jorjo]

btw for your ufo cheese fest you could probably use dataron trax to control the whole thing (i thought that you'd know that though as its a pro show control system)
oddly enough so could show cad, but that dosnt make life any simpler for a 5 min bit of cheese that BTW isnt MY cheese,

man your leaking wisdom again. I wonder is that Id of yours has a feline grace implied <wicked Grin>
G

Oh aye,, tom you seem to have confused me with someone else, theres a bit in there wihere your have a go about about slaggin ppl off for not knowing how to use a lighting desk n stuff

Hope ya didnt mean me
Nothing like that was in my post, The only mention of Lighting In my post was the cueing the Lighting opps and mentioning a hog and some linteligents
but if your ever lookng one !...

[sleepytom]

ahh simple AND professional - this man wants it all :)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by sleepytom
ahh simple AND professional - this man wants it all :)

Hu? naw I just settle for sittin in the bahamas watching a web cast of ya going in a doin it for me while I pick up the pay check.

Yeeesh, I bet you goina think Im being unreasonable now.. Ok so You can have petrol money and your name on the credits. :O :)

thats never asking to much is it? ( shit wheres the smily for wide eyed innocence)?

[elbows]

I certainly dont want you to go away unless you feel there is nothing here for you, I hope we can all gain from talking to eachother even if we are miles apart on what exactly we do.

Personally I would love to do things on the scale which it sound like you are, but I have to start from the very basic to work my way up, unless I invest money I dont have. See I have no proven track record and there are no large venues and performances in my area where the stuff you describe would even physically fit.

Also I am not particularily business savy or aggresive in trying to make a living from this, I would guess that some others here are the same. But at the same time I have big dreams and the technical potential to deliver them, but I think maybe I need a partnership where someone with strong business and people-networking skills can seal the deal as it were.

Certainly I think its now been solved how these arguments about what a VJ is and your disatisfaction with the forums came from. I can understand it now, what you do goes beyond what the internet VJ communities Ive found consider to be the day to day aspects of the job. There really should be no battle here over titles and whether its art or entertainment, performance or business, these are all just labels that mean different things to different people anyway. Nobody could ever win the argument, but maybe we have won by at least now understanding eachother better.

Ooh Im turning into a hippy again or something!

Anyway I still think this problem for you is characteristic of many other professions on the internet. I mean where are the communities of knowledgable musicians or holywood producers sharing their knowledge with the prosumer type level of people who probably by the very nature of things will always outnumber the pro's?

Regarding the developers forum, well again it is always likely to be small developments by people without large financial backing, because anything properly corporate or intended to generate lots of dosh is unlikely to be discussed openly on a forum for competitive reasons.

I mean I guess it must be more competitive at the pro-end of the scale because there are less big money gigs around right?

I dont know what country you are based i, but in the UK I keep reading that big clubs are on the decline and the superstar dj phenomenon is slowly dying. I am so disconnected from the club scene that I have no idea if it is true but I hear of clubs shutting.
I guess it would help me to understand even better if I could kknow the size and type of events that you are a part of, I mean they sound large to me and I dont see many opportunities to get such large events.

Going back to labels as to who is a VJ and who isnt, the stuff you describe makes me think back in history to the stuff Pink Floyd did on tour, wondering what it was labelled as back then because in many ways I think its fair to say its in similar territory.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by elbows

Personally I would love to do things on the scale which it sound like you are, .

I mean I guess it must be more competitive at the pro-end of the scale because there are less big money gigs around right?

I dont know what country you are based i, but in the UK I keep reading that big clubs are on the decline .

Hold that thought elbows.
before you go lovin to do things on that scale, just remember your up all night as a rule, Every gig is miles away, every job attempts to prove impossable, If it can find a way to be awkward it will be, and when you have worked night and day to create some monumentally stupid effect for a promoter, who ten mins into the show decides Your right its tacky and drops it, and dont wanna pay for the time on it. It gets kinda hard to stay enthused, hence why i see it as the job 90% of the time.

Yeah its competitive. even nasty on osscasions.

Im UK too mate, On the bit over in ireland. The big clubs are dying, not that it takes a rocket scientest to realise that if the DJs wanna be wankers and Educate the crowd, the crowd quit going there and go where they here what they enjoy. Word from the inside claims thats what happened with cream.

That probably the strangest thing about the entertainments industry, the Stars always think they matter, when its just happens they were just in fashion for a while, If those ejits had the sense to play to the masses and play what the masses wanna pay to hear, then the culds on the mainland would be back on the up, funny thing is its never affected Ireland, it crowds are more practical here. if ya play them shite they burndown yer building lol :)

[MoRpH]

http://www.jcind.com/mailers/images/thumbs%20up.jpg Nice work Krez :p
Originally posted by krezrock
http://209.15.12.10/Trailer/images/uf10.jpg

Yo yO!! iM da bAdestAssed vj in da whOle wIdE wUrld booyee!!

yaLL maFuka's dOn't eVen kNow wHat tIme it iZ.

smOkIn maaD blUntZ whIle gIrlZ gOne wiLd iZ beAmiN iN thE hiZZy.

[Anyone]

gosh, i dont believe it, ***** sounds actually like a friendly guy ;)

nice to be on the same side as you !

cool *****, respect and all that
but the next step
is for you to respect us,

even the ones that do stuff completely different from you.

you are garanteed to offend some of us, if not all of us,
if you say thing like "carl cox is only good for weddings"...
just say "i dont like it" or whatever

that makes a clear difference between discussion and despotism.

keeping with the cox example,
I played and chatted with him many times
he is actually one of the hardest working people in the industry.
for example, some of you might know already,
but for 1999-2000 new year's eve,
he actually hired a private jet so he could do several Y2K parties
on the same night, over different cities of the globe,
spread out in different time zones...

the stuff of history books...

[MoRpH]

It was 2 places actually Australia and Hawaii (for Fiji or something) just on the other side of the date line so he could play here, jump the date line and be back in yesterday with a minimum of effort, still top marks for thinking off it :) nice stunt..... personally he is one of the few big names I'm yet to have the pleasure of working with, hoping to fix that soon as I have loved his music from the FACT days.

[Rovastar]

Anyone I read ***** Cox comments as at a wedding he would be no good as the crowds do not want banging tunes. They want a mobile DJ with Abba songs etc. Not Cox is only good for weddings.:)

Originally posted by *****

But Carl Cox is pure rubbish, if you put him in to do a wedding disco.. Ie value of content is only relevent to the the nature of the event.

Personally I think he is overrated did good stuff some time ago now but nothing that new or groundbreaking since.

Anyway.

I feel that there are different 'levels' of 'VJ's' here.

Venue/Work wise

The Big boys at the top. Doing mega band tours, etc. Specing out for the gig costing up for the equipment etc. Maybe even music video for these bands etc.

Then the full time professional nightclub / Festival Vj's.

Then the part time struggling VJ's / hobbyist. Clubs, parties, sometimes get big events.

Kit wise.

The latest kit. Thousands upon thousands of pounds of new hardware. Obviously the latest hardware from video editing suites etc CAN perform better then the latest software based solution. But it is expensive and not as expandable/ updatable. Also they can have the latest software too (or so they think).

The middle of the road people. Plenty of kit. Not always the latest but no all that far behind. I nice blend of hardware and software.

The more practical software boys. The laptop brigade maybe. They mostly have the hand me down mixers if at all on the latest software then the latest hardware as it costs less to upgrade.

Now to me all these are VJ?s. The Venue/Work - -> Kit generally match up. Obviously the bottom of the latter is a lot cheaper than the top of the ladder. They can undercut the next level up.

Now to me the gaps between the levels for the quality of the output is reducing. As PC?s can do more and more obviously the gaps get smaller and smaller. They will never completely consume the need for a hardware solution.

As for the *****?s comments on my robbing everyone else?s business.:) I do understand content (with context : ) ) is important and examples that have been pointed out to me (like if a new tune did have a 2001 sample in it a related visual would be very nice to drop scene or related subject matter on the big screen and people would remember it no doubt)

For a start I do know no contacts in the field.:) and really the stuff (I do as a hobby) would work best on a smaller night for example when there is no live VJ (Say Tuesday night at the club or a chillout room). I see clubs with projector playing a promotional videos and think it could be so much better. To me something is better than nothing.
I don?t think I am going to put some directly out of work but think of it as this you have to improve (which is a good thing) otherwise automated system will be more attractive. Just as the laptop brigade are putting pressure (nearing quality & cheaper cost) on the ?traditional? market.

Hopefully challenging situations make us all improve. The scene is technology driven as well. Not matter what your style. You (everyone here) has to stay up with all aspects of ?visuals for music? to dismiss it out of hand is wrong.

Related comments on low res. I honestly thought until I had a chat with Red last night thought that when people were talking about low res you were talking about 800x600x32bit resolution. I mean an average ?50 UK pounds graphics card can produce resolutions of 1920x1440x32bit etc. I just naturally presumed that you guys were getting better res?s than this as the screens are so big. But I realise that you are talking about 300x200 and stuff as low res. :eek:

Now although people might like this low res that is OK. But if all you kit/software could produce all the time 1920x1440x32bit then it would be your choice to use the low-res and that is all fine. I don?t want to see people saying I like it that way when infact it as a kit limitation.

This seems to be that also all the kit is related to broadcasting kit. Now to me this is all outdated. You are limited by the old standards that your TV are set to. PAL and NTSC had a high refresh rate, res when they first came out some 30 years ago but these ?standards? are still far to common today.
Now I admit the cost boundaries are there so you cannot afford the latest video mixer that maybe able to do a res about PAL or something. But PC solutions could do a better job in a standalone using one PC as a mixer. (I understand the crash issues etc)

Projectors etc will get better res quicker than the video mixers will improve their level of detail.

These are other opinion and anyone serious (the top level people) should also look at other developments in the software world. Sometimes you dismiss this all too easily it seems. This is where I feel a divide is occurring.

Example I have seen on MTV etc the live tours of people (U2, Britney Spears, etc, etc) and most like very detailed and stuff but there is say no music reactivity they are just play video clips. Now to me this can only improve on the standard 3d Studio Max etc clips that are being produced (when they are used I know obviously it is not all CG scenes). Human can drop/mix things better on a beat than a computer can and obviously there are people there to do this with the clips/scenes etc. But there are many things that humans cannot do better than computers. Level of bass change in the last frame compared to the current treble readings.

I honestly think the sometimes these big events (esp for ?pop? artists) ruin the scene in a way. I look at some and think they could be so much better.

Again it is using hardware and software that is not directly relevant to the ?Visuals to Music? (Avoiding the term VJ) scene. This is broadcast stuff and not designed to the reactive to the music etc. In fact this does not seem all that important to many here as I have said before. I understand more now about content and context issue but you can have both. I know not all people will notice the reactivity of the stuff but some will.:)

In some ways the software people like VJo respond to this need in a modern way (although missing a load of useful things.:) ) but people do not use them as much as they could.

As this whole scene has grown there is getting more and more a need to have a dedicated hardware and software market for it. NOT always using other dedicated hardware and software from what is becoming directly less and less relevant scenes (broadcasting, etc) .

This forums is about the future but also people I feel should not always hang on to the past.:)

(edit: started to fix typos and missed out words etc, but there were too many so I gave up.:) :o Some are shocking. :o )

[Jorjo]

Looks like we are all singing of the same song sheet at last,
(cept mabey "anyone" who did miss my point re cox" Rova read it as it was intended"

And again I agree totally with rovas post and its content, Id rather see rova post as a specilist ie visulist so that I know who to look to for the latest developments in that section of the market

As for my own labeling, I can claim nothnig more than just VJ, but can offer the hands on sharp end background,, Thats not to say I have the answers, Im just pointing out that Im out there encountering the problems on a daily basis and to survive ya gather a few how not toos.

Whats the definition of an expert?
By my definition of the term "I probably fit as an expert VJ " :)

Judge for your self based on my own definition.

AN expert is the person who has made every fuck up that he can find and discovered 90% + of the ways how not to do something, with hard won and expensive experieance..

or the expert is the battered and brused bastrad that was daft enough to go on when optomism got chewed up as reality bit him in the arse. (dangerous stuff is optomisim, it grows back)

the lesser spotted expert is universialy seen as a jaded guy shaking his head and pointing at the map muttering things like "There BE DRAGONS" and havin the scorch marks to prove it :). Hes not showing off, hes just the battered frazzeled fucker needing a stiff drink and seditives in the company of the enthusiastic fresh faces who would run in where angels fear to tread.

Id reckon that applies to programmers and musicians or any other field

Or should I just say that the term expert is nothing to be proud of, its more of an admission of guilt and not having the sense to sit back and let someone else go find out why something cant yet be done.
(kinda makes ya wonder how armys ever got to have expert bomb disposal squads)?

So to get back on topic, I guess im asking that a shop talk section go in to house the professional guys that have the experience to spot the How not too's as much as the how toos

I figure we have experts in all the aspects of the game within the group and although that clearly dosnt mean that they will have the answers to any givin problem, It "is" likely to mean that 99% of the pitfalls can be avoided by knowing who to ask before venturing into any part of the game blind to its individual "it ill never work"'s.

plain terms, Id like to know who can say,, "dont go that way theres a fucking big hole over there mate, I fell in it last month"

To me thats an expert.

hindsight is 20/20 vision. Thats what I had in mind when I suggested the extra forum.
Murph posted that perhaps there was nothing here for me at the level im working, Naw murph,, theres guys here trail blazing and taking dents that if shared could be dents I can avoid,, Ive had my share mate Its your turn folks, Anythng I can help ya with in exchange for the word back from your own frontlines & pitfalls can only make life easier for us all.

Im not suggesting I have all the answers, cause I don't. not by a long way. but I have some that may be of use to those that wanna know whats on up the road a bit. (and thats what im looking for too)

all I can say is that Ive fell into and worked round so many pitfalls in the Vj scene over the years that im nearly ready to add the term "freefall VJ to my list of specilists. ( if anybody doubts that, have a look at the light hearted VJ mysteries thread, all of which can happen within one gig )

Rite enough of the rambln, I gotta go gig tonight in a club loud enough to make my friggin eyes bleed. catch ya all later.

G

I know the section cover most of it , But im thinking more of a section holding the total package guys that are using everything they can lay hans on and are out there working,
Guys using softs/mixers/cams/projectors and everything else, as a starting point for newbies questions like "how can I whatever?"
and the main posters in that section answer or can suggest Ask whoever if they cant help. Which kills the confusion of whos who and whats what and adds usfull additional structure to the mix .
( im just telling it as I see it from the perspective of joining recently).

Perhaps even an icon choice for each member to have a handle on there level and specialisation. (as if dave wasntr busy enough)

[MoRpH]

Hmmm I think that really the scope is already there, its not hard to decide which catagory your question/experience fits in to without creating some sort of eletist forum (which sort of goes against the idea of VJC/F) for total solution ppl, I mean anything pretty much has gotta fall into one of the cats we already have.

As you saw in the custom screens thread, if you refrain from hurling insults around everyone is more than fair to everyone else(regardless of level of experience) thats the VJC/F way :)

I can see your point about structure but you may possibly cut ppl that have that specific knowledge you need, out of the mix cause they (or who ever decides) don't think that they are PRO enough..... not really the sort of equal community we are trying to create here really.

What do you think X???

[eXhale]

I don't mind creating some new forums, actually I was going to post a new thread about new forums suggestions since the current ones seem to go well, but I don't really see the point of a "Pro" hardware forum, it seems there is already a lot of "Pro" talks on the current forum and the hardware forum isn't too overloaded either.

*****, could you maybe, without going through a long rant (my eyes are tired), explain why you want such a forum and what kind of topics would be discussed there which are not discussed already on the hardware/future forums?

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with the idea of having some kind of levels based on our specialisation. If you are good, you don't need to have an icon to show it off, do you?? Right now there is only one level, and it's for the editors/moderators. There are also the VJC points to reward the contributors but I don't know yet if I'll keep them.

[Jorjo]

Yeah dave.
here s my thinkin.

Instead of cutting ppl out, I reckoned that there must be a few of us who are not struggilin hard and it would be helpfull to activly help the newbies in any free time,
The shop talk section i invisioned was kinda a section were by its very nature would be an ask the stoopid questions section,,,lets face it if you dont know about something then its not stoopid to ya, even though its quite possably bloody obvious to someone whos been around a while.

I reckon a section like that, far from being elitist would be more a chance to activley help out with the routine questioins and possably buid up a database of FAQs as tom pointed out earlier i know nothing about programing so rather than go wading in to the softs section with daft questions, the shop talk section would filter the easystuff on everysection allowing even the greenist newbie to get straight to askin an old soak without fear of bieng thought foolish or critisised for it by his peers.
Its also as good a place as any to cover issues that dont quit fit anyplace else like basic cam tequniques and composition, on the basic safety and rigging issues and anything else. a section where its accepted that help is available with out the ensuing debate as to right or wrong but just a simple heres how thats being done at present section and leave the debates for the rest of the site.
obviously the person asking the question needs a quick answer and wouldnt be though less of for asking about something they havet encountered before so all questions get treated with respect.

as for the icon thing, would id be so elitest to have a self chosen tag that shows you as experienced in

Fultime/parttime

mixer VJ
laptop VJ
combination VJ

specilist in (if any)
road shows
video
film
CG
artistic content
projectors
rigging
editing
cams
programming
brodcast systems
Audio
lighting

With 600 members looming, It would be nice to see whos at what at a glance and probably make a diffrence to how threads evolve since most ppl would go into more detail to explain a point about a soft to a mixer only vj and viseversa.

I saw it as a place where newbies and daft or sensible questions are welcomed and a chance to meet the regulars on there best behavior (hemm) if you prefer to call it "ask a lunitic daft enough to VJ for a living" fair enough, but i dont see why it should be just pros, Pro dont by default = "there be dragons kinda wisdom"
naw just a learning section where the teacher = the experienced on best tollerant behavior.
In a utopia the points should work ok , but what are they issued for and by who? (genuinely curious) It took only a few days to spot Tom as a knowlage base, but how do ya tell from the guys not currently posting?
dunno, perhaps even a opt in table page with feel free to ask me about X topic where at a glance you can see who is the name behind X soft, or whos the mixer repairer or font of usefull stuff on X vj related subject

If I want to find out who knows about liner editing, id have to search the profiles or hope they or someone who knows them is currently posting

BTW i found a serious flaw in relolume......
the programmer ISNT LIVING CLOSE ENOUGH to buy that man a beer and weasle a freebie release code.

[krezrock]

you have some very good points there *****. i'm glad you're here. big up.

[MoRpH]

Yeah I agree ***** has some good points/ideas there, well worthy of some consideration, especially the areas of specialization thing which would mean faster answers to direct questions I guess, if thats what you want to use VJF for.... some ppl just like to read and post, and just genereally discuss anything to do with VJing wothout it necessarily having to to be a straight up Q and A.
without fear of bieng thought foolish or critisised for it by his peers Ummmm this actually rarely happens on VJF, as it is, it only tends to be when ppl come in asking for help but ranting and not displaying any repect for the community.
with out the ensuing debate to some ppl thats the best bit and think thats where the true development, groundbreaking and understanding actually come from, yeah I want ppl to get answers, but debate is healthy.

:sad: Oh and lastly, if your getting the big gigs you say you are, why are you after a free copy of resolume, BUY IT!!! its good value or does that fall into the same catagory as taping other VJs mixes without their knowledge or permisssion??? :sad:

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH
Yeah I agree ***** has some good points/ideas there, well worthy of some consideration, especially the areas of specialization thing which would mean faster answers to direct questions I guess, if thats what you want to use VJF for.... some ppl just like to read and post, and just genereally discuss anything to do with VJing wothout it necessarily having to to be a straight up Q and A.



Akk Fer fuck sake here we go again.
What the fuck is it with you Morph, VJF this AND vjf that when the one person who dosent want it to evolve is you. I guess it is what I want to use it for and theres no section for that. exactly the same as your attitude when I mentioned High rez.. IS that why your the moderator Morph? so you can control it all?


"quote"
Ummmm this actually rarely happens on VJF, as it is, it only tends to be when ppl come in asking for help but ranting and not displaying any repect for the community.
to some ppl thats the best bit and think thats where the true development, groundbreaking and understanding actually come from, yeah I want ppl to get answers, but debate is healthy.
"quote"

Rarly happens? fine Did you ever hold Jmaes to task for starting the last on going saga? Naw, course not, did he respond to the direct challange a few post up to go find a post that said what he accused me of saying? naw course not, Debate is only healty when you adult enough not to be putting your petty issues first, like your "YAWN" at the rez issue, You are guilty of the condesending attitude to that topic.. GET IT STRAIGHT Once and for all Morph, Ill trad personal insults with anyone man enough to dish them up, BUT ever topic I post on , I back up with valid perspective and not "YAWNs" And you can consider that a direct complaint on the attitudes of the official moderator and part of the reason for asking for a section where just such an attitude ist accepted.

"quote"
:sad: Oh and lastly, if your getting the big gigs you say you are, why are you after a free copy of resolume, BUY IT!!! its good value or does that fall into the same catagory as taping other VJs mixes without their knowledge or permisssion??? :sad:
"quote"

ARRRRRGGGGG , Morrph, Wake up and smell the coffee ! Resolume is a direct result of time effort and experience, with a price tag in cash, My time and experience also has a value, quid pro quo, so unless your the person behind the software its not your decision to make.

AND FINALLY. IF YOU EVER MAKE A COMMENTS ABOUT ME TAPING MIXES AGIAN. your chance of making it in the business will suffer instantly. Because I will personally name you to the VPL, then just Like I have to , you will also as a VPL licence holder have to be able to provide loging tapes on demand to the VPL for everything that goes to your screen. NO vpl licence? then you stuff must be tottaly clean from copyrighted material.. one problem.. YOU STILL have to provide the log tape to prove it.
O yeah did I forget? VPL licence will bring you more pro bookings the your no doubt wonderfull content, SO if you compititing are playing legit, ... oh yec lets not forget the MCPS licence for the sound track to be there too.
So I you sitll want to discret me for behaving within correct VJ protocall and loging all work least some asshole play a porn loop or a bit of speilburg at my event so my licence can protect me. YES I TAPE. but your insinuation that I would infringe the copyright of the VJ that produced it and use their shit is a personal Insult thats likely to have me rip yer fucking head off and shit down the hole.
and to think your a moderator? how the fuck can someone who has NO experience of the industrys legal protocals could ever have any credibility as a moderator? Whats wrong here is that Morph wants it to stay as it was when nobody pointed out that HE could be BANG out of ORDER.

Step down morph, give the post to TOM, or someone that can tell fact from opinion
.
Ill expect your apoligy in the next post.

You want respect then earn it. I can respect neither your ability to behave as a moderator or the personaliity behind Liebllous insuations you post


Get your fucking post about me ammended NOW

[MoRpH]

I'll make this short and sweet,

I already admitted to being hasty with the "YAWN" comment *****, get over it.

I'll say it again debate = good even when it is with someone you think is an idiot, they can teach you things too, I mean when I read your first post I thought you must be insane but I have come to respect your opinions and learn from them, just as I might from anyone else that comes along and post on a random thread.

As for the mix taping comment, I do believe (unless I read it wrong and then I will happily take it back) that on a previous thread you admitted this with regards to reusing other VJs content to try to discredit content based VJs..... if not you have my sincerest apologies, if so then thats just sad and wrong, simple.

If you wish to take me up on any of this you have my IM details, feel free to message me anytime, I'm not trying to start shit, just trying to being a devils advocate if you will....

As for my status as moderator, I have personally contributed a lot to this website and have earnt it (thanks being to X for providing this great resourse that I am proud to be part of)....... as for tom, he is a champ and I agree he should be a mod, actually I think he is, anyway I have had a long night and I'm just home from a gig and I was hoping for a nice relaxing post or 2 b4 bed and I get this *shrug* oh well..... thems the breaks these days......*sigh*

[Anyone]

*****,

you seem a very smart lad and quite competent technically.

but your short tempered bullying attitude
is just simply offencive to me and i'm sure to others,

I'm sure I could've learned a few things from you
and vice versa. But I just cant take being called a
**** in the interim.

so i think i'll just take a backseat from now on
with this tread if you dont mind,
instead of writing a novel at each tread,
i think i'll just do something more contructive,
like maybe write an article at VJC entitled
" what is a VJ "

NE1

PS
carl cox is probably as good DJing for weddings
as an electrician is good at fixing a leaky faucet...
(get it ?) :nod:

[Denimage]

VJing, "a mon humble avis" is image poetry, electronique painting, pleasure and desire...:nod:

[elbows]

Theres nothing big about making threats, and if you do make threats you should at least do your homework...

I have great pleasure in telling you that Morph is in Oz, and from my research VPL is a very British institute. Also they are concerned with the licensing of music video's, and as I understand it this applies to videos released through specific labels.

So whilst this is not an area of great knowledge on my part, would I be correct in assuming that this only applies to the UK and to a specific range of music videos? For sure there may be equivalent legal stuff in Oz but its not the VPL?

Likewise the MCSP is also a UK thang.

People in the UK who may be concerned or affected by these issues can find more information at:

http://www.mcps.co.uk/medialicensing/

http://www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/resources/ip_organisations/video_perfomance_limited.htm (cannot find good VPL site their web presence seems to have died)

[burstingfist]

Too bad all of this energy couldn't have been used for something more positive, like adding Reviews and tech tips. Try to balance your posts vs points(119/0 = div by 0 error)...

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Anyone
*****,


carl cox is probably as good DJing for weddings
as an electrician is good at fixing a leaky faucet...
(get it ?) :nod:

? Whats he smokin?

Get it? I SAID IT !
What are you readin?

I wonder if theres a computer virus that make the post read diffrently on your puter?

and this time im not calling you anything. ( I figure the rest of you can see why Im wondering about this guy) ????

Anyone,... You SCARE ME !!!!

[MoRpH]

Hahaha the joys of web based communication (or miscommunication in this case) :p

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by elbows
Theres nothing big about making threats, and if you do make threats you should at least do your homework...

I have great pleasure in telling you that Morph is in Oz, and from my research VPL is a very British institute

Good point.
The VPL is the uk name for the music industrys copyright dogs. The name wont appliy in Oz, but the industy hounds operate in every country in the world bar one.( which I cant remember)
i covered this in a previous post, the VPL licence Is a hell of a safty net, ( and a pain ) And to clear up any eronious thoughts that morph may have, If you have a licence they can check on you anytime, ergo, all shows MUST be logged or the bastards assume you owe them money. it has advantages, but the dozens of looging tapes are a nightmare (and they also need to be time coded like security vids, which to reasure morph, is the standard bloody big white text shit and is also recorded outside the raster during the video blank phase")

[MoRpH]

OK *****, I couldn't be bothered going though all the posts so I will let it go, and obviously you have proven your point as to why you keep log tapes, just hoping that none of those log tapes of other VJs work find their way back into the source.... if you say you don't then thats good enough for us, nuff said

happy thoughts

MoRpH

[Jorjo]

there no problem in me playing them morph...
but the huge date time thing accross them isnt my stlye,
I guess it possable to crop them to loose it , but for all the time it takes to make my own shit, who could be bothered?

Ive mentiond lightwave before. for the sake of a few minutes settin it up and leaving it to render, Film quality shit is possable with ease. I noticed a few posts mentioning it as expensive. Id say it has more value than cost. if ya can get a look at it you will probably be impressed, (though it has a learning curve like a brick wall)

[MoRpH]

Yeah I have actually done quite a bit of work in lightwave and 3d studio max back in the day, but I'm a little over 3d myself now, doing more collage/footage cutup stuff to go with that skratch style thing I was talking about.

Yeah the timecode thing would odd :p personally I like them though, I actually have some anims that I made just from timecodes.... Just asking seriously though, now speaking hypothetically, you don't see a problem with getting in another VJ paying them for their mix @ the gig, recording the show onto your log tapes then replaying it again without hiring them or giving them anything for the replaying of their content/mix??? that you would obviosly be making money from??? As you said you don't do that so its cool, but from the tone of your post it still sounds like you don't think there is anything wrong with the idea.......

[Jorjo]

lol..
weve all ripped someting from TV or film at somestage, Where do you draw the line?
Being ripped of used to bother me too, Now I see it as a compliment.. Theres nothing Im seeing anyone else do thats worth ripping ..
If someones worth booking, there big enough to have there own style, so why bother worring about it.
I have my own thing going on without needing anyone elses.

Ripping an sampling sucks, it end up with everyone looking the same, like 90s pop music. a combo of 1 beat and 20 samples.

Im glad you had a look at lightwave Back in The Day... but why where you just using it for 3d? did you miss the rest of it?

[MoRpH]

Hmmm nothing wrong with using loops that other ppl have produced and remixing them with other content live but thats different from just playing a mix by another VJ and not crediting them or making money from it, there IS a line there somewhere, I would say its different for all ppl, but I'm sure it would come b4 the wholesale rippoff of another VJs show.

As for lightwave, well it was a long time ago and I mainly did stuff with 3d studio max, I also dabbled a little with Aura (I think thats what it was called), Newtek's rotoscoping/compositing package, has that been incorperated into lightwave now, cause I mainly remember lightwave as 3d, but I guess you could combine it with video in the rendering eg. your shopping trolly thing you were talking about in that other thread.

[eXhale]

Originally posted by *****
the industy hounds operate in every country in the world bar one.( which I cant remember)
Isn't it Taiwan which doesn't acknowledge copyrights? Or some other asian countries? I remember reading something about it recently. The pirate market must be huge there :p

[Anyone]

originally posted by *****

anyone YOU SCARE ME

good !

[Anyone]

anyone you scare me

good !

[infopocalypse]

1. Yes it's Taiwan. The laws for infringement and infringement enforcement are different in each country, however.

2. ***** I refuse to further the cycle of personal attacks that you started with your first post. While my posts have been likewise personal attacks, neither have received a response on the issues I have raised (your own insecurity, which is obvious) and your lack of technical knowledge regarding the extensive kit you own, which you have both addressed and sidestepped, instead stating that I've started this all. This is truly ironic... as while I will not run away from saying my posts were personal attacks you run away from saying the same about yours. I think the only difference may be accuracy. At least in the battle of words, *****, I can insult you to a pulp any time I like... but because I have been asked to let this one go I will.

Good day, evening, night all, as per your time zone.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by infopocalypse
1. Yes it's Taiwan. The laws for infringement and infringement enforcement are different in each country, however.

2. ***** I refuse to further the cycle of personal attacks that you started with your first post. While my posts have been likewise personal attacks, neither have received a response on the issues I have raised (your own insecurity, which is obvious) and your lack of technical knowledge regarding the extensive kit you own, which you have both addressed and sidestepped, instead stating that I've started this all. This is truly ironic... as while I will not run away from saying my posts were personal attacks you run away from saying the same about yours. I think the only difference may be accuracy. At least in the battle of words, *****, I can insult you to a pulp any time I like... but because I have been asked to let this one go I will.

Good day, evening, night all, as per your time zone.


TRAWL !!!!!!!



Ps
aint you the GUY that put a post up calling the MX50 the wx50? YOU,, THINK,, I lack a technical Knowlage? Yheeeessss man you couldnet even get to the hand book with that example.
let it go, James,

for once we agree, Accuracy is the problem, the fact that things You I alledged I said, arnt available with QUOTES, with a URL to the origional.

Quit bitchin, go dig up the posts your talking about, Or drop it.

[Jorjo]

On second thought No.

Lets do it your way james.

Since it clear that you want to do the whole New kid on the block has to face the the town bully routine.

What are the Issues that you want clear?

give me a list of the questions on my kit or whatever, and Ill answer them for you.
what technical knowlage are you suggestion im lacking?
and anything else that seems to be a problem to you.

Let just get it over with.

( do I have to ask to be in your gang or anything)?

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH
Hmmm nothing wrong with using loops that other ppl have produced and remixing them with other content live but thats different from just playing a mix by another VJ and not crediting them or making money from it, there IS a line there somewhere, I would say its different for all ppl, but I'm sure it would come b4 the wholesale rippoff of another VJs show.
.

theres a strange one for us all..
Ripping samples fom copyrighted ork Isnt legal (not that its an issue for most)
But ripping of a VJs work is mearly wrong morally ( although intlectuall property yada yada )

i agree morph, there is a line. and ripping off a VJs work and playing it back is to showcase it as long as it played with the origional sound track as was.
For anybody to play anothers work as their own Is ? is what? is like a dj playing a 74 min mix?
Is it not more the issue that its played without permission and that perhaps the ripped VJs stock content becomes usless to him becasue it becomes the background tape for others?

Uk law defines this under the 1967 theft act.
from memory it runs along the lines of
To assume the rights of ownership and permenatly deprive the etc,,,,

there is also a section that is "theft by precunary advantage".
which covers gaining tangable advantage from anothers work that thay should have been paid for.
So here in the UK, If you rip its criminal (if the police ever took it as serious enough to persue) so theres the line, as defined by a general law.

Can that be used to forward the VJ community? the music industry got wise to it. how long before theres a serious market for VJs buying legitimate stock loops?

But i think its more worring that VJs consider it a threat that a content tape played as morph described is a threat, Tapes like K-mix already exist as do the sysetms like the eurika from "martin"
there will always be clubs and venues playing tapes,(as Ive said before i know of one club (its in Eire btw) that books VJs just to rip them)

Ive full vjed log tapes sitting here with
Judge jules
Tall paull (ffs hes over ever few weeks)
Mauro picatto
to name a few (if james required I can lift stills from any of them)

even lisa Lashes euphoria content as played and mixed live last night.
How much are they worth to the bootleg tape boys?
They continue to sit in the log rack (and the past six mths work in the safe),
and stay there untill their old enough to be recycled, because they are not worth enough to damage a reputation for. The choons and the live content is worth a damn sight more in real terms than any Vjs abstact additional content

If none of the above or lastnights Lisa Lashes isnt worried about last nights log tape containing a currently Highly marketable sellection of choons from the euphoria album she has out, along with the video of her mixin them live. Id be guessing that a Vj getting excited about me keeping logs would need to have pretty fucking spectacular content :)
which brings me back to the point I made earlier,, content is only worth a damn if its in context. lisas stock tape would have a blackmarket value of around ?2K, Judge jules when it was current would have been more.
What VJ has home grown content of that instantly marketable value?

Ive seen bootlegs in flea markets and know which clubs they came from.. the artists now refuse to return.

the promoters and club owners Ive worked with over the years are well aware of the value of log tapes, It wouldnt be the first time Iv had to sign legal affadavits to have a log tape authorised, and officailly noted and authaunticated ( which is exactly what I had to do with the Honeyz).

Any VJ who gets into that circuit would need to get over any worries pretty damn fast. Logs protect your work by authentication, and proof of where you played what. Its through logs that you can find who ripped and leaked you work. and many promoters expect a copy for their own records fortunatly this dosent happen in the local club scene and shouldnt effect the commando lappy style VJs. but it kicks in hard and fast when theres Cameras involved.

I hope that clears up an misconceptions, and also why I dont value stock content so highly. the market sees it as miscalanious and the value focus's on the included footage of the givin artist and soundtrack.
let me rephrase that.. I probably do value stoick content the same as everyone else here, But in context i know its worthless by comparison to the live content
whats more value? a stock shot or a shot of Puff daddy geting righteous? and yeah mate I got that shot and screened it live choose to destroy it and the log tape (dont even try to guess the monatery value) but thats what makes a reputaiton. Trust and respect.


Back to lightwave.. lightwave 7. imagine spraying a hundred points from an aresol, then shaping the movement of the points in 2d or 3d or in layers into a mist or a wirlpool over time.. now imagine each point as a screen with a clip assigned.
welcome to light wave 7 mate. but rendering time is a bastard, it still does all the rest, but if you can imagine it, lightwave can probably put it on your screen. the only limitation is the learning curve and your own imaginatioin. sounds to me like it could be time you had a second look.

Glenns film butterfly was created in lightwave and aftereffects, it took a year and the commission was worth ?20K from the Irish film board.
http://www.butterfly.ie
Each frame was exported to hard drive as a single bmp as film res then all forty gigs of it where shiped to holland for transfer to beta and flim. (that alone cost ?4K) but an AVI out at Pal res was also done for the rushes.
lightwave has kinda impressed me. (and since I seem to have gained a rep for being hard to impress) I reckon its worth sharing the tip.
I dunno If theres a download on site ( Ive been looking at the damn thing right from the storyboard days so never got round to surfin the site) But since its a site on an actual example of a professional film made in lightwave,, it could have some worth to someone in the group
G

[MoRpH]

Good to see laws like that exist over there, and they prolly do here to, my point was more as you said "moral".

As for lightwave, yeah I might dig up a copy and have another bash with it, I'm really enjoying doing a lot of shooting @ the mo so the possiblity of combining it with footage could be a lot of fun. As for the movies using it, I think lasttime I used it they had just annonced that it was used on TITANIC :p

The butterfly thing looks nice :)

[murph]

I believe china also does not recognize copyright. They also don't like patenting, which is why they created vcd and svcd, so they wouldn't have to pay the dvd consortium. They're working on a version of linux that'll allow them to ignore M$ screaming about their pirating M$ software anymore.

I've wanted to check out lightwave for a while, my favorite VJ in town here uses it quite a bit.

[infopocalypse]

China recognizes copyrighting. VCD predates DVD by about six years.

[elbows]

And they are developing Red Flag Linux not just to save money/M$ hassles but because they fear a US Government back-door in M$ products makes them insecure (some muppet forgot to encrypt some labels in a NT4 SP and it revealed a key called NSA - ugh)

[wellREDman]

you mean microsoft doesn't put it's users first!

[LEVLHED]

*****, I don't quite understand where you come off....you have a unique (to most here) definition of "VJ"....you come to this forum expecting everyone to agree on your definition. When you find we don't, instead of refining your definition to fit with what is now the norm, you belittle us all by using words like "padding" and (try) to make us out to be non-professional posers.

What I'm wondering, have you ever seen a real VJ?
Now of course when I say "VJ", I mean what pretty much everyone else does (but you).

I feel for your need to communicate with your peers (thats why I'm here), but if having a forum here for them means putting up with more of this abuse....no thanks.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
*****, When you find we don't, instead of refining your definition to fit with what is now the norm, you belittle us all by using words like "padding" and (try) to make us out to be non-professional posers.
.

Im not quite following your point Lev.

I joined the group as a working VJ from a marketplace thats well defined. In perspective a forum thats open to anyone who wishes to join and take the title Vj can do so, and with that perspective the number of ppl who have decided their Vjs can define any role for VJs by majority. That dosnt mean that the marketplace gives a damn about a majority definition from a web group. Ive only pointed out that the perspective of the group seems to lean in a direction thats not particularly inkeeping with the type of work that readily availabe.

If you asking me to change my view form a sound buisness perspective to a view thats based on a web group where many members are still discussing the posibility of getting work, Im guess Im sorry, But Ill stick to the tried and trusted perspective thats proven in reality.

I wont be changing my definition to the web groups accepted norm while my own definition is clearly bringing in the work. My peer group are working VJs. If your definition moves the term to Vj to a someother place, Cool. I'll stay with the workplace definiton thankx :)

G

Btw I dont expect anybody to agree with the definition ive posted, Im just telling it as I find it, if you disagree fine, there's even a web group that disagrees with the earth being round. Each to there own Lev. I have only posted the facts as I find them.

[LEVLHED]

sooooo...thats a "no"?

and you're saying that the defenition of "VJ" has nothing to do with what we actually do, but what ever makes money? Now thats just stupid.

[Rovastar]

*****,

Remember that the workplace definition of anything (to a degree) is dynamic and therefore does change.

For example a miner 100 years ago would have been someone who was undergrounds and used a pickaxe to chop out the rock face to get the required mineral. Now times changes a miner now-a-days does work underground still but does not use a pickaxe to chop out they use complex milling machinery for that part.

So definitions of terms change.:)

But if we take the lowest common denominator in VJ'ing which I would say is change one 'medium'/'scene' into another to the music via a mixer.

Then the discussion of what is a VJ will change into what style/how 'professional' VJ are you. There is a difference - I hope you can see that. Then we can talk about what your clients see as a VJ.

Incidentally I feel that most people here are full-time VJ's (in the basic sense as described above) so saying/implying they are not cannot be helpful.:) But whether you are full time or not does not detract from the fact that they are VJ?s in the first place. Take the bad analogy of DJ to Vj then a DJ who does only does 1 a week/month/year is not a DJ. If a DJ does get little/no pay because he ?helps out? a club & does it for the passion of mixing does it make him not a DJ. Do you have to be actively working & paid well to be call a certain profession?

I understand, I think, what many of your posts are about but sometimes I feel they are worded in a wrong /na?ve /deliberately provocative way. People sometimes (mis)interpret your posts and therefore have animosity toward you

It is interesting though how the/your ?workplace? see the job of VJ?ing. Personally I see the promoters/punters view of VJ?s in a very simplistic view as just some visuals in the club. Hell it could be even less then what I could do - just a recorded ?tape? played all night.

But this is something I want to discuss with the promoters/ punters hopefully at AVIT next month. (Sorry MoRpH we talk about AVIT everywhere. :) )

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
sooooo...thats a "no"?

and you're saying that the defenition of "VJ" has nothing to do with what we actually do, but what ever makes money? Now thats just stupid.


Ahhh No,
Im saying that Im paid as a VJ in the professional market and that MY definition of VJ is the same as those doing the paying.

You are free to have any definition you fancy, even if it has nothing to do with the rest of the industrys perspective as to what a VJ is. :)

Man , you can call night, day if you like, but I'll stick to what Ive found and whats been sucessful, so "scuse me while get on with it" and you do your own thang.

[LEVLHED]

OK, so you're saying that since YOU call YOURSELF a VJ, and someone pays you for what you are doing, then you must be a VJ?
I guess I don't see how this forum could have possibly gone on this long, with so many members from all over the world, without anyone having any problem with what we were defining as being a VJ...

you do your thing and I do mine...fair enough, thats all I really wanted anyway...but you can't expect the people here that are focusing on pushing the definition of VJing as an ART FORM to respect your opinions when you are essentially telling them they are wasting their time and aren't even really VJs...

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
OK, so you're saying that since YOU call YOURSELF a VJ, and someone pays you for what you are doing, then you must be a VJ?

you do your thing and I do mine...fair enough, thats all I really wanted anyway...but you can't expect the people here that are focusing on pushing the definition of VJing as an ART FORM to respect your opinions when you are essentially telling them they are wasting their time and aren't even really VJs...

Nope, Thats not what Im saying.
The guys who need a VJ, define what a VJ is. I do what they need so by their definition Im a VJ. since those guys are in the higher end of the entertainments industry, Im sayin that their opinion of what a VJ is has more value to me than ppl pushing the ART aspect on a marketplace that dosnt particularly care. Im kinda comfortable with the fact that some of the guys are fucked off at me calling it padding, Perhaps they will find a way to make it stand out enough to aviod being confused with screensavers. But I still content that the many work for the VJ in reality is as a secondary and well paid performance that is made up of live feeds and padding.

I probably get more oppertunity to play arty bits than many of the art advocates. so how do you figure they are going to advance the art? Common sense applies, get the work first and educate later. Whats it to be? Beautiful art but no gigs? or Abundance of gigs by providing the service and then play art in your own time?

But Plaese,, just clear up one small issue I have with this. What exactly is this Art? Is not short films, and its not specific content, that would be a presentation, So what exactly is it about generic images that can be described as Art, is every loop to have a name? Define for me what makes the VJs work stand out so much that is becomes a stand alone art form?

Id be more than happy to see the padding ive created over the years be elavated to the status of an Art form, but for now Ill continue to see it for what it really is, Moving wallpaper. valid in its own right but no big deal in reality.

Perhaps the selling points for promoters should be what you can do for them instead of how wonderful you feel you work and talent is.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
OK, so you're saying that since YOU call YOURSELF a VJ,

BTW, .. Ive got a bank manager, the Vat man, The tax man, the VPL, The MCPS, The Insurance company, and promoters TELLING me that Im a VJ.
pehaps I shouldnt listen to them :(
Maybee I could get a Tax rebate if I tell them you said Im not :)
G

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
But I still content that the many work for the VJ in reality is as a secondary and well paid performance that is made up of live feeds and padding.

I have to admit that the key to it for me is the way I mash it all up live, and as I said b4 I think the live feeds is more padding than the produced content that I work on all week, its not like its hard to mount a DJ/stage cam and mix it in, not to put live camera down, I think live cam being wielded by someone with a good eye is absolutely amazing. But its about respecting both ingredients that make up the dish :) the meat & the potatoes :p

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****


BTW, .. Ive got a bank manager, the Vat man, The tax man, the VPL, The MCPS, The Insurance company, and promoters TELLING me that Im a VJ.
pehaps I shouldnt listen to them :(
Maybee I could get a Tax rebate if I tell them you said Im not :)
G

Thats interesting that they actually make a definition like that, does that mean they some how include your performance as a performance art and is this an actually official definition???? I would believe it if it was I just guess the UK market is more developed @ the momment, I thought you would have been considered a AV company (with video focus of course) by the tax man, which isn't a go @ weather your a VJ or not just an observation of the tax dept in australia's ignorance

[LEVLHED]

If I really need to defend to you that what we are doing is art, I think you have less in common with everyone else here than I thought.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH


Thats interesting that they actually make a definition like that, does that mean they some how include your performance as a performance art and is this an actually official definition???? I would believe it if it was I just guess the UK market is more developed @ the momment, I thought you would have been considered a AV company (with video focus of course) by the tax man, which isn't a go @ weather your a VJ or not just an observation of the tax dept in australia's ignorance

:) Chill morph, I didnt read it as having a go. It could be thats part of the problem the other members having with what Ive been posting.
VJ is a Job description in the Uk just the same as a Bus driver is a Bus driver. Which is what I was trying to get across to Lev. It wouldnrt matter a damn if an new forum opened to say that DJs produce records when the established industry and the associated instatutions Know that a DJ spins choons.

Granted there not huge numbers of VJs in the UK but the name and the occupation is established.
The horrible truth is that in the UK market, The video art guys wouldnt be seen as VJs, instead their more likey be viewed the same way as the kareoke companys were in the local pub club level.
Unfortunaly I think that trend is set to grow.
AV companys are guys who mostly supply the corporate sector often with a dislike for the rock n roll end of things, (smoke res in projectors and bumps n scrapes etc). The Vjs here are considered more as the music industrys specilist live producers, and to be freelance as a VJ requires the tools.. :)

It been fun to watch the same issues evolve in the AVIT thread where you guys are now looking for all the things that an event promoter expects the VJ to arrive with. Its a damn BIG event from the number of VJs playing, but other than the extra mixing facilitys, it pretty much typifys a promoters std expectations when booking in a UK Vj.. ei screens, projectors, cams, mixers, artist timeline related program, and the content issue is gets to be way down the list and dosnt stand out enough to be listed as a specific (other than to expect it to be of a reasonable quality) Hence The pot in the AVIT forum re placing a cam on the "STAR" which for once get to be a VJ, and beaming it at a second screen to show the VJ work while his imagery goes to a main screen.

The AVIT show Is AN example of the UK VJs Job as recognised by the industry, The images on the screen are the easy bit when the works done. hence its hard for me to relate to the current forum view that Art = VJ status when ART = artist.

Red asked me to help out on AVIT but the new club is causing logistic headaches and prior bookings are getting in the way of that.
For your next one I will be happy to set it up overhere as a VJ artists showcase, and all the guys will need to do is show up n hook in

:)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
If I really need to defend to you that what we are doing is art, I think you have less in common with everyone else here than I thought.

YUP... and thats kinda worrying

Cause What Im doing isnt art,, Its Just VJing. And if all your doing is showcasing your art, Whos providing the rest of the requirments?

[infopocalypse]

I see the definition somewhere in between... I personally HATE the term artist, mainly for reasons along the lines of *****s... I think that to degrees being a VJ per se (I've also said before I really don't consider myself anything.... if this thread illustrates anything it's the difficulty of definition) is defined by being paid, and in that respect I am one.

*****, however, seems to isolate this to his area in the world. I think that the level to which this happens is how carved up a market is... obviously ***** has a more cornered market locally. In my area, the market is fairly nicely subdivded save a few quirks... and normally a gig for one of several people in a coalition is a gig for the rest of them. Does that make me any less of a VJ? No. It probably makes me a smarter businessman, as I subcontract things out rather than attempt to do them myself.

[burstingfist]

What is art?

[krezrock]

ah the irony, heheh

and the winner is........(drum roll)

lighting video director!!


welcome to the war kid
:eek:

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by infopocalypse
Does that make me any less of a VJ? No. It probably makes me a smarter businessman, as I subcontract things out rather than attempt to do them myself.

Ahh James.. But since you can sub contract then your the man providing the VJ service.

What diffrence if I fly to the states and hire in everything I need?
Its the VJs role in the UK to be the one stop solution to the required imagery.

Hemmm theres a term.. Required imagery...

If there are hire companys who will work for you and provide everything You need for your role as the Vjs capasity of being a professional visual solution , I cant see how it would make you less of a VJ.

On the other hand someone expecting to walk into a venue and plug in a source player for artistic content, Is considerably diffrent from providing the level of service currently expected from VJs.

Thats why I quite like the commando VJ term,
It implies a skelital version of the normal role
If theres a market for moving wallpaper only, cool.
But i have a severe problem in believing that Artistic content is a reasonable excuse to ignore the reality of the industrys greater role and redefine the VJ as an ARTIST who dosnt need "to know or do all that other stuff"

My own personal view is that the VJ is a rare hybrid of specilist knowlage and talents in a market that has a tendency to hire the guy who is reliable and gets results against the odds and gets it right first time.
I cant see a market for visual artists as a stand alone package or why the working trade of VJ should be diluted to artist only issues while the market vlaue of the specilist is abandoned.

One of my greatest hopes is that the forum will provide an oppertunity for Any perspective VJ at any level of experience or equipment to develop a wider understanding of the markets needs and the methods to achieve them, instead of ignoring the marketplace and isolating the VJ as just some guy peddling his artwork.

In short, I wish that the majority of members would drop the hang ups about the art aspect and get on with doing the bloody job. which would expand the market for al of us.. theres plenty of time for personal art to be shown after a booking been secured first for being a VJ.

Even in the AVIT forum, important promoter "selling" points arnt mentioned such as, providing an additional view of the booked artist and the promotional marketing potential of the video or the ability to create multimedia flyers for the captive audience.. But such thoughs receive the comment "selling out" from many forum members. Why? its part of the trade, and a selling point with more impact than saying My arts good. Thats all VJ strengths.. Will the forum trade that for pure ART and no market?

akk I give up...
Who cares.,

G

[infopocalypse]

"in the UK" or to be more specific in the areas of the UK to which you have travelled.... there are many many markets which are based on talent of moving wallpaper makers, as you put them. There are others based upon gear... and more based upon a mix of the two.

As I said before I don't qualify myself as anything... it think labels are very troublesome. I think your endless need to qualify everything based on your rather localized experience is what continues to get you in trouble in situations here... that and that you do so with such a chip on your shoulder. The biggest names in the world tend not to really need the quantification of titles. Titles are great for business cards, and that's about where they end. The further you get in the industry the more business comes by referral and example, and the less need to call yourself anything.

The title of VJ is also not something I'm fond of either, despite the fact that this is VJ forums... i think VJ sounds as unprofessional as people who feel the dire need to put DJ in front of their professional names... while DJ could fit under some circumstances, most of the major names have branded themselves to the point where they do not need it... the few that do are often single words that would have otherwise been funny or copyrighted or easy to misunderstand, but in the end having DJ in your DJ name or VJ in you VJ name is relatively, imho, uncreative... akin to people who put numbers onto the end of their IM ids because 8576 other people before them chose fatboy.

It's very open re: this coalition that it is a bunch of separate people... and I probably bring the least business to it... why? because I get residencies that last great lengths and do not need to concern myself with freelancing as much.

TITLE MEANS NOTHING, and really neither does gigging it. Reputation is very important, and that is what you are harming here by arguing a point you will not win. Gigs are a fuck-you-fuck-me sort of business, unless you're a multimillion or billion dollar staging company, in which case it's only a matter of time before Clear Channel buys you out.

Now can we please all be very happy with, in a PHANTOM TOLLBOOTH sort of way, agreeing to disagree and have this be the last post of this napalmed thread?

[eXhale]

I agree, labelling means nothing. I chose to use "VJ" for these forums because it's short and it's the most commonly used (and understood) word, but I consider this place to be for all kind of video artists who create their content live (as opposed to film making).

[wellREDman]

i agree with the agree to disagree solution,
but i'd just like to draw attention to the etymology of the word
video jockey
someone who rides/drives video

this to me would seem to mean that anyone who manipulates video live, in any context is a VJ

all else is qualative not quantative speculation.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by wellREDman
i agree with the agree to disagree solution,
but i'd just like to draw attention to the etymology of the word
video jockey
someone who rides/drives video

this to me would seem to mean that anyone who manipulates video live, in any context is a VJ

all else is qualative not quantative speculation.

For once total agreement with all, Particularly James point that Kids who bought decks put DJ infront of their names to be seen as a DJ because they didnt have the work or reputation to live up to it.
"VJ YADA YADA" is potentailly coming our way just as it did with DJs, For the DJs who knew they where DJs by being out there working The prefix DJ was amatureish, To be a DJ was and still is a profession underneath. And again I agree with Jame that the term VJ is weak, but for no it still represents the profession from with in the industry, The Idea of public access to the term and the redevelopment of it as a bedroom artform is the same issue. the profession will just have to carry that crap.
It would be nice to see the forum as a place where the greater potential is developed and the Bedroom aspects kept in the perspective of biginners starting points

[BrainStove]

What really a VJ is - The Art of VJing is? ... Just enough!!

As far as you can make your visuals uncoherent, bumping, pumping, pulsating in sync with the beat of the music, in rhythm with whatever the crowd is dancing and jumping around... well, more you are VJing.

It doesn?t matter you are using a truck full of broadcast A/V gear, a laptop with WA plugins or a couple of slide projectors, if you are able to throw and show visuals with enough rhythm at such level that if the DJ suddenly turn off the music and you are able to keep the crowd jumping/dancing around just with your visuals and their individual inner crazy music in their minds... YOU ARE VJING!!!

So don?t get confused, if you are trying to tell a story or picking up what happening on stage or whatever something else with your visuals in an independent way to the beat of the music, maybe you are making a music Videoclip or Rave documentary rather than VJing.
Don?t get me wrong, you still could have a concept in your selected clips/loops material to play with and show your mixing skills on the big screen, but if you are trying to tell a story with that or distracting the crowd minds apart from the music, maybe you are peeing out of the can.

So VJing = (same as DJing)==> *RHYTHM* NonStop motion madness frequency in sync with the crowd.

It is not casual the VJs & Visuals (in the way I explained above) started to be popular when the "No Lyrics Dance Music" (Techno, Trance, D&B, Jungle, Etc.) becomes popular too as an event/attraction phenomenon with huge crowd convocatory power. Yeah, the visuals are replacing the lyrics on that context, the crowd don?t want to be bothered thinking or reflexing trying to decipher any hide messages... the people want to dance and trashing themselves in a similar fashion of trance state like some tribal rituals where everybody is dancing around a flame.

Yes RHYTHM, Rhythm, nothing meaningful to think about, just keep the drums, clicks, bops, ?eooowns, etc, going and you are on the game... same with visuals.
Other way maybe you are best as a VideoArtist showing your work on Museums or a FimMaker/VideoMaker making Music VideoClips to TV or showing your work in ShortFilm Festivals or Rave documentaries on Cinema instead.

Just think about your VJ setup/kit like a sort of "synesthesic visual oriented" musical instrument or percussion/rhythmBox machine to hear through the eyes and then my dear friend... YOU?LL BE VJING!! :nod:

[wellREDman]

but i'd just like to draw attention to the etymology of the word

video jockey

someone who rides/drives video


all else is QUALATIVE not QUANTATIVE speculation.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by BrainStove
What really a VJ is - The Art of VJing is? ... Just enough!!

So VJing = (same as DJing)==> *RHYTHM* NonStop motion madness frequency in sync with the crowd.
Just think about your VJ setup/kit like a sort of "synesthesic visual oriented" musical instrument or percussion/rhythmBox machine to hear through the eyes and then my dear friend... YOU?LL BE VJING!! :nod:

A Lot of valid points in this, But Djing isnt NONSTOP motion.
Thats only one small part of the working DJs turf.
The Club DJs are outnumbered by the professional Mobile DJs many of whom have a deeper rooted talent, The mobile DJs learn the hard way how to work the crowd with timeing and the ability to MC/Compare/and spin. Only one aspect of DJ is glamarous and artistic, The DJ industry is based on the smaller equipment buyers who are out on the road, The majority of the top names learned the craft out on the mobiles before making it in the clubs scene and gained the talents to Work the crowd.
Sparks comment that The AVIT gig could be doing with a VJ to compare the other VJs is a good example, The VJ that can run the live feeds, pad out the gaps with worthy content and even on occasion be the presenter with the mike needs the full range of the VJs talent, If that VJ also has the background to know what equipment is required and how to get the most out of it, then thats a VJ that deserves professional recognition.

My thinking when I posted this thread was to see how many members consider VJs to be Like bedroom DJs with the expectation that what you play will be enough to stand out in the world of entertainments where everyother person around has that very same ability.
By defining the VJ as the guy playing art on the wall, The oppertunity for the guy who can do that and the rest, to take your gig is automaticly built in.
VJs have a disadvantage. The mood of any visual output is changed by the mood of the muisic, (over which the VJ has no control) If a VJs imagery is good enough to make an impression, it becomes instantly dated and old hat. (we relpay choons but how often do we rewatch movies)?

That reality means that the VJs content is limited too

Quality Reusable footage
Generic unmemorable footage
High impact footage that has a play once or short shelf life value at best.

Where as If the scope of the VJ = Handle ALL Visuals

Then the majority of the High impact, low shelf life footage becomes gig specific by using live feeds for it. leaving the VJ to build up a bank of quality reusable footage (to which I personally refer to as padding)

Having read all the posts in this tread, I come back to the same conclussion.
Its still the VJs role to handle all visual sources,
Any VJ may choose not to need some of them. but to advocate that the VJ is only one aspect is narrowminded and painting the role of the VJ into a corner.
Content selection is the role of the VJ.
creation of content when none of suitable quality is available is considerably diffrent from protraying the VJ as a role to be respected for playing his individual works of art.

As such, I come back to asking why there is a lack of posts on cam technices, and cam man communications that are still very much part of the VJs role. How are you guys getting exactly the right shot from the cam man?
The first time I asked this, I was informed that there was no need.
Perhaps no need equates to no need YET or no need for what You are doing, But I still maintain that there is need for the VJ to be aware of if not use this method along with everything else.

We have soteware and hardware threads, But none covering Basics.
Obvious things like why your cam will be hopeless to use if it has a colour viewfinder.
or the setting of white/black balance or back focus.

Sorry Guys But I Value the LIVE part of the VJ, Im not impressed at comments on site that suggest that the term VJ can be anything that excludes such a basic building block.

Find fault with the term that The VJs role is to handle ALL visual sorces (even if some of you dont have them available).

G

[murph]

I didn't even read the last 10 or so posts, but I'd like to comment. I think the "art" is in how we mix the video, which is where we get the name VJ, using the DJ analogy, where the DJ's art is in the mixing, not in the tracks he's playing that he didn't produce. We're taking several sources, mixers, and fx processors, and creating an end product that's greater than the sum of its parts. That's our art, as VJs. Outside of MTV, I've never heard of a non-artist being called a VJ.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by murph
where the DJ's art is in the mixing, not in the tracks he's playing that he didn't produce
Outside of MTV, I've never heard of a non-artist being called a VJ.

Ya wha?
The Djs art is in the mixing? Hu !! mixing is secondary, its a bye product. The Djs art is in playing the right thing at the right time, Knowing when to lifyt it and when to lower the pace.
80% of Djs dont give a stuff about mixing,, The wedding DJs know that the right tune at the right time = result,, the club scene is no diffrent. Its just the Mix is the public idea of what hes doing.
MTV as non artist? So a radio DJ is a non artist too? Hemm tell that to Trevor Nelson.

The VJs role is to play all available sources,
If that means making what you cant find else where, fine.
But this idea that making content to play is the totallity of being a VJ is nutts.

Hu. So I can book any VJ here, and take it for granted they can all handle a live set of 4 or 5 cam feeds and intro cues. with a line up of live bands and a selection of guest appearances?

or are we saying that the comp op feeding up the title screens and the generics is really the VJ?

Who ya Kidding?

[LEVLHED]

Originally posted by *****


...this idea that making content to play is the totallity of being a VJ is nutts...

yes, we know we are nuts, but this is what we've been trying to tell you...DJ's skills not in the mixing?...are YOU nutz?...maybe you don't realize where we are coming from...the rave scene...try telling any DJ up on the stage at a 2,000+..hell, even 200 attendant event, that it doesn't matter if he doesn't match the beat on the records...OMG...if you haven't yet, you need to get to a real rave soon....preferably one with a VJ...maybe it will help you understand better what the 700 or so members here are doing under the title...when a promoter hires a VJ here, they expect an artist.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED


yes, we know we are nuts, but this is what we've been trying to tell you...DJ's skills not in the mixing?...are YOU nutz?...maybe you don't realize where we are coming from...the rave scene...try telling any DJ up on the stage at a 2,000+..hell, even 200 attendant event, that it doesn't matter if he doesn't match the beat on the records...OMG...if you haven't yet, you need to get to a real rave soon....preferably one with a VJ...maybe it will help you understand better what the 700 or so members here are doing under the title...when a promoter hires a VJ here, they expect an artist.

Lev mate,, After beeing in chat for hours with ya, That post translates into wat ya been saying, but BY fuck does it read different at first glance..
Skin me one up man and think about the cash form Rizzla as a sponser.

[Anyone]

*****, why you so obsessed with wedding DJs ?

[LEVLHED]

yeah *****, I'm glad we were able to get some realtime in...(god I love this site)...maybe I can explain where the wedding DJ is coming from...most of us here make a DJ/VJ analogy, but we're thinking of a rave DJ....***** was making the same sort of analogy, but with a wedding DJ...the difference being, a rave DJ is more focused on the art where the wedding DJ is less concerned with art and more the job...

and whats Rizzla? oh, just did a google search..must be a motocross thing? You're talking about sacrificing art in order to make money via sponsers/etc, right? hmmm....don't know if we should go down that road on this thread....look how long the AV2 thread went after the coors light contest started...

[MoRpH]

LEV, rizzla = brand of cigarette ;) papers

[eXhale]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
yeah *****, I'm glad we were able to get some realtime in...(god I love this site)...maybe I can explain where the wedding DJ is coming from...most of us here make a DJ/VJ analogy, but we're thinking of a rave DJ....***** was making the same sort of analogy, but with a wedding DJ...the difference being, a rave DJ is more focused on the art where the wedding DJ is less concerned with art and more the job...So should we create a new label... wedding VJ? :jump2:

[LEVLHED]

oooohhhh....I get it, thanks morph :)

if you'd said "zig zag" I'd have gotten it sooner ;)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
yeah *****, I'm glad we were able to get some realtime in...(god I love this site)...maybe I can explain where the wedding DJ is coming from...most of us here make a DJ/VJ analogy, but we're thinking of a rave DJ....***** was making the same sort of analogy, but with a wedding DJ...the difference being, a rave DJ is more focused on the art where the wedding DJ is less concerned with art and more the job...

and whats Rizzla? oh, just did a google search..must be a motocross thing? You're talking about sacrificing art in order to make money via sponsers/etc, right? hmmm....don't know if we should go down that road on this thread....look how long the AV2 thread went after the coors light contest started...

Yeesh,, man this culture barrier suckx Rizzla = skins manufacturer
aka a sponser worthy of yer art lol

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Anyone
*****, why you so obsessed with wedding DJs ?

Strong word that "obsessed"

Im not,, But Im pointing out that there are probably 20 mobile party DJs for every club DJ. yet somehow the public perception is that the club DJs (many of whom are clueless about the kit they use ) are the definition..

The reality is that the Working jocks are mostly outside the club scene, with a tougher market and a much better grasp of the game than the kids practicing in bedrooms, whos only perception of a DJ is gettin the mix perfect. Ie their ART

Yet any full time DJ can tell them that thats the least of it. the knowing what to play and where and when to play it matters more.. the club jock dont have that issue since the style is pre defined.
The point being that A DJ can play any crowd in any style (including most of the big names who learned it out on the road)
but the new breed of DJ Bedroom, can only his shit and his art but can't DJ across the board cause he aint ever been there. (he just saw the DJ as a star and tought hey I can mix)
When the local country n western club needs a DJ. it suddenly becomes clear hes not a Dj in real terms, hes just some kid who can mix dance tracks. But Hey he dosnt want to play that shit, he just want to be seen as some star mixer n put DJ before his name..
cool... except he knows fuck all else about the job..

promoters book guys that can do it all, but who then went specilised as a club DJ/mixer
the Kid commin in who can mix, genuinely thinks hes got it all down pat.. ( I fired one on monday ) but know fuck all about levels and system head room, they know nothing of limiters/ compressers, in fact their just idiots that can mix,, But when they wreck the system by overloading the gains, starting the night at full volume and playing the big tunes back to back and leaving it dead later, their just assholes.
The guys who worked out on the road who can handle all that and then show talent on decks get the work, while DJ fuckwit is sitting yelling that he could do better, Yeah he could till he fucks a system and the crowd get their money back.

Same with VJs. the guy who knows his way round the job as well as having talent gets the work.

VJ or DJ, the art is only 40%. the other 60% is in the knowing whats whats and why.

Which is why the reality of the entertainment world is that the talented only get nowhere because they hadnt the sense to see there was more to it all than just their wonderful skillz.

its not like any of it is difficult, but as long as ppl believe that the art is enough then there fucked. having a talent for the job is only the starting point, every other fucker has it to, so whats making the Guy with talent a VJ when 700 other members also have it?
Smarts make a working DJ, smarts make a working VJ. but if any of the new breed wanna strole on and try to do it without the smarts, hell gp ahead, ppl have been trying to make that boat float for years, and 1 in a thousand pull it off (and end up needing the smarts in the end)

FFs half the board is bitching at me that I dont respect their art. Why would I its the same shit Im doing "if even" what use is content if your not getting the work? why ya not getting the work? The other half of the board KNOW what Im on about. VJin isnt just art, it a bloody licence to print money at the same time.

How can ya respect anybody thats totally unaware of half the VJs role out there?

and for what? the sake of being inquisitive about the rest? then specilise with the knowlage under yer belt. But no. its about art so lets just close the door on the rest. DU!

Yeeesh

[BrainStove]

Well pals... Evident & Crude reality... A conclusive truth this time.

So ***** I totally agree with you on this last post. :scared:

[unjulation]

i've been refraining from posting anything in this thred 'cos i have been very curios of how it pans out but i've got a few points that spring to mind

1) it seems to me that ***** comes from the background of haveing to d.i.y. it all from the start (the whole mobile dj/vj idea)which in tern has led him into a space ware the abality to do that is important, jack-of-all-trades but i'm not saying that he's master of none
2) because of this, the idea of specialization becomes redundent, but as i understand it the "jack" will never take V.J'ing or anything else for that matter, over to "edge city" while the specilist will always have to relay on the "jack" to fill in the knowlage gaps
3) there is a whole tradition within this industriy and outher forms of expreshion that dictates that the indervidual who ignores what the "public" whant and just do's his thing, artisticly and musicly can then leed to the idea of "the public didn't know they wanted it until they were given it"
4) this in tern touches upon the idea of dj/vj mixing and the whole content thing, which is a very dificult to make a difinitive statement about, because to me it's a jugel between what the crowed whant and what you as a dj/vj know will create a good show, which are not nesiserily the same thing
5) because vj'ing per-say is so low do on the list of most promoters then the public havent been given the chance to make a choice about wether visuals should be an intergrated aspect of the the night out (haveing put parties on, free and paying, for the last 12-15 years then one thing i can say with a bit of certanty is that the public is fickel and not very bright, they will still rave about a headliner dj, even though the residents have just blown the headliner out of the warter)
6) the whole dj argument, to me is pointles 'cos we aint talking wedings we are talking "dance" partys so to me it becomes irelervant that cirtain dj's can play all these diferant spaces we are disucusing things that are very specific, but yes this can been seen as narow minded, but i personely don't have a problem with that
7) i'm not haveing a go but i would disagre that anyone can do the "content" thing, haveing done workshops on vj etc then i would defintly say this is not the case, depending on the software and the sampels then most people will be able to create some ok stuff, just like dj's, but there are only a few who have pased through the workshops that have that wow factor, which sureley is what makes a good vj or dj
8) the whole concept of the mobile vj/dj is a very intresting one, personaly i like it, but as my outher post have said i like to be in controle of the whole aspect if i can, me a controle freek no never! which alowes me to put on exactly the night i whant, but agin we come to the point of do you please yourself or the audiance or is it possible to do both? (an interesting point springs to mind, it has been said that the big clubs are dying and the whole dance sceen is in decline, now why is this? personaly i think it might have something to with the fact that promoters and in tern the mobile set up have been pandering to the publics whants to much rarther then pushing the boundries of what it is that we are giveing them, both visualy and audioley, also it should be noted that the nights i know that have been going strong over the last 5 years or so are the ones that swing between giveing people what they know and love and something new and cuting edge, again you find that the punters are actualy very conservitive in there tastes and it is a balanceing act between the two)

anyway this hasn't realy answerd the original question about what is a vj is but hay

[Anyone]

Originally posted by *****


The reality is that the Working jocks are mostly outside the club scene, with a tougher market and a much better grasp of the game than the kids practicing in bedrooms, whos only perception of a DJ is gettin the mix perfect. Ie their ART

Yet any full time DJ can tell them that thats the least of it. the knowing what to play and where and when to play it matters more.. the club jock dont have that issue since the style is pre defined.

See,
this is where i think the misunderstanding comes from.
to me mixing includes WHAT you mix,
not just the fact that you're technically able to change from one track to the next without missing a beat.

I think wherever, club or wedding you've got to be perceptive and feel the crowd, and try and find in your crates something that will make them shake their booties.

but still, I strongly believe this is possible while keeping a bit of stylistic integrity...

anyhow, another point I'd like to make in *****'s favor (who said that?)
is about owning and riging all your own gear: I guess you can apear to be worth a lot more money than the guy that just turns up and wiggle a t-bar for four hours, and actually charge a lot more !!!

NE1

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by unjulation
i've been refraining from posting anything in this thred 'cos i have been very curios of how it pans out but i've got a few points that spring to mind

I reckon every point you made is on topic.
but I also reckon the point is being missed by most.

The Idea that a VJ is about content alone is pure bullshit.

BIG statment?

The AVIT gig has just thrown up a very simple fact. A VJ isnt a VJ unless he can get the public eye onto the visuals.

An artist must first know the medium he is using for his finished piece. In the case of the VJ, a total lack of knowlage about the projector, the lens the screen type and its placement, the video wall or the tv, leaves him stopping short.

Untill the imagry reaches the eye its still the VJs domain.

A lack of interest in that area can and often will lead to a situation where the imagry has little or no impact or could be barely visable and badly persented.

The guy who stops at content creation and leaves the presentation in the control of others is stopping short.

The current state of forum thinking seems to be that any beamer will do, and the chance to play comes across as the most important issue.

To look at that coin from the other side, I care enough about what I produce to have made sure that it reaches the public in its best possable condition. Shouldnt ALL that take on the idea of VJing have that basic pronciple as a basis for what they do?

Should any VJ ever suffer from a crap image on a poor beamer to a wrong screen surface in a position of a poor line of sight, through not knowing any better?

Some of the VJs involved in the AVIT gig have just uncovered a lot of simple but serious issues that are typical of the job, some are only seeing those issues for the first time. None of the issues are a problem to overcome, but any of them could have destroyed the gig. The world of the VJ and his needs are the VJs own responsibility. Every DJ should to know how to change a stylus, just as evey VJ should know how his image will be presented and enough about the backstage side of things to know what hes intending to achieve and enough to make sure it happens as he wants it

There is nothing special about the hurdles that I brought to the attention of the guys for AVIT, But I would hazzard a guess that none of them would say those things werent significant to them as VJs.

The idea that thats technical shit and nothing to do with VJs just dont cut it. Its just basics and power for the course.

Any one with a computer or a vcr can create content, that dosnt make them a VJ.

The definition of the VJ is the guy who brings all relevent content live to the publics eye.

The VJ should be able to handle all feeds and know how to get them to the screen. ( knowing how to screen is a large part of it)

The guy whos only goal is to create content, isnt a VJ by default, since he still needs a VJ or a technician to provide a means to show his art.

The man that does both is a VJ, the man that plays only other ppls content or live feeds is still a VJ. But the man that only creates content is a producer and as such has no need of any further understanding than to offer a lead out of his system to a VJ or Visual technician
Yet a producer has so very little more to learn , that he would be an idiot not to go that extra mile an become an all rouind VJ.

Its that extra mile that makes a diffrence to Gigs like AVIT, the diffrence being whether it happens or flops.

Can anybody say its ever ok for VJs not to know how to put on a show from the ground up?

OK so my posts have pissed off a lot of guys in the forum, I have said a VJ is more than content and art. that point has just been demonstrated with AVIT, I take no pleausre in that. Other than knowing that suddenly I have a peer group that now take seriously the importance of the rest of the job.

VJ is not just a party piece, its healty and safty, safe rigging, insurances and a whole pile of entertainments related shit that can stop a gig dead. Or do some of you think its just an industry that you can walk into as a star performer and everything you need will be done for ya by as if by magic?

The precariously balanced beamer that falls mid gig? Dead dancer.
The screen that falls and disfigures the face of the cute chick dancing by it it?
The crossing of phases that brings the power down or starts a fire by straddiling the lighting phase with the audio.

Ya know about that shit? then why be involved in something that falls in with your job description

Vjs are not just limited to the plug in and play at the 200 capacity local club.
the trade gets serious at 40 x30 screens, The hobbiests working below that level have no stand point to tell those who wish to know how to work safely above the local plug in club level that ALL the rest isnt important. the truth is the local club level is so embarressingly easy that any school boy can walk in and do it with shit from the schools lecture theatre and demand respect for art, (and I suspect a few here are just that)
does that make him a VJ?
ASk the same guy to handle visuals for a gig for 500 ppl from the ground up, what then?
Is it to be the stance of the forum that VJs be limited to school boys knowing nothing more than how to hook into someone else who already owns the equipment and knows more about its use?

Limmiting the role of Vj to being nothing more than a guy that shows up with content is madness
Some may choose to go that route, but let the rest of us involved in the full scope of the job get on with without having to listen to the crybaby justifications about how "all thats not VJ stuff" while they wait for the VJs magic fairy to turn up and sort it all out for them.

Its VJs and guys like us that do the sorting, and its about time that those missing that point catch on. If you dont know this shit its time ya did. the public can make content, to be a VJs means knowing all of what it takes to create your GIG and do it safley.


G

Petty content wars dont make gigs happen. VJs do.

[Anyone]

Originally posted by *****


[...]

the trade gets serious at 40 x30 screens

[...]

Petty content wars dont make gigs happen. VJs do.

Fine ! yeah ok the trade gets serious when you've got 40x30 screens, but at that point what it all comes down to is team work.

don't tell me you're physically doing all the planning out, the riging and visuals performance all by yourself cuz then i'll have to call you a liar.

let's use the DJ analogy shall we ?

on that scale, everything gets split into specialist roles. everyone knows that :

Musician, DJ, sound engineer.

whoever still tries to do all the work by himself at that level will probably be a control freak, on the verge of a nervous breakdown, with no hope of stable relationship...

most importantly,
he/she will also most definetely be a crap :

musician, DJ, sound engineer.

recognise anybody yet ?

so, going back to the non-metaphoric world,
on the scale you are talking about,
it is my opinion that you absolutely need to choose a camp,
in order to keep the quality of your work very high :

visuals producer, VJ , projector/screen rigger

but at the end of the day,
the visuals producer and the musician are isolated in their studio,
the sound engineer and the rigger are backstage in the techie lounge

and the DJ and the VJ are in the limelight...

were are you ?

NE1

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by *****

the trade gets serious at 40 x30 screens,

What?!??!?!? I really don't understand this community here I mean how can a screen running @ 40x30 be good, it just a joke modern computers run at 1000's x1,000's. You people are so in the past. I give up with this low res debate.

For those that don't understand.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;) :D

[robotfunk]

I think he meant that is the amount of screens he has in his impressive setup ;)

[MoRpH]

OK I think its pretty obvious that 40'(feet)x30' screen was what he meant and that 1000's x 1000's screen rez on a computer is a totally different thing....... so I presume that was a rather lame attempt @ a joke Rova

[Rovastar]

It was a joke. Hence the 8 sarcastic similies there.:)

Though I must say I actually though ***** meant 40x30 TV screens as in a masssive video wall. I thought that was the high end he was talking about.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Anyone


don't tell me you're physically doing all the planning out, the riging and visuals performance all by yourself cuz then i'll have to call you a liar.

NE1

Dont judge me by your standard,
As if any of its difficult,,
Yeah thats exactly what I do.

Call me a liar,, but show yourself as a fool.

Hanging a 40 x 30 screen = bolting together truss sections and using the industry std clamps to mount it to what ever points the site engineer considers safe. and pressing the winch button to lift it. This is difficult ?

Hanging an industrial beamer = mounting its cradle to a certed point with industry std clamps and pointing it at the screen. this is difficult?


Pressing the up button on a cherry picker or power winch to bring you up to attach the screen or beamer. this is difficult?

kinowing that a qualified structural engineer is required to sign off on heath and safety regs is somehow difficult?

running power and a bnc cable back to the booth is difficult?

listening to the promoters design concept and doing whats required, difficult?

then strolling up to the T bar and doing the gig. ?


At what point is any of it difficult?

Is it hard to get clued in and check out industry std mounting clamps or check out the safety regs?

What the fuck is difficult about any of it ?

Let me really scare ya.. I even drive the truck and find time to make coffee. DU !!!

stroll on man, go ahead call me a lair, but try this on for size, if you think any of that is difficult your a fucking idiot !

Take an adult with you to your next gig mate

BTW, Are the ANY VJs in your area?

(note for X.... in the Icons can we have a pointed hat with a D on it as a specilist catagory for this guy)? :p

[MoRpH]

Firstly ***** don't go calling NE1 a fucking idiot he has contribute to this website for ages and proven he is far from such, secondly...... leave out this stupid all encompassing ANY VJ's (with your definition) shit will you, I though we all agreed that it means different things to different ppl..... just cause ppl don't get involved in that side of things doesn't make them any less a VJ FFS

[elbows]

A world of knowledge is no compensation for a poor attitude ;)

[eXhale]

Anyone has a good point about the difference between the various actors required for music, although at the moment there isn't many video producers, or rather all VJs are also producers. There is nothing wrong with being a sound engineer, in fact without sound engineers music would be shit, and that's the same for a video engineer. A musician would be nothing without a sound engineer and the opposite is true too.

IMO, right now you can create your own visuals because VJing isn't really mainstream so people are happy with anything. In short it doesn't require much to make punters happy. But if visuals follow the path of music (and I think they will), then after a while punters will ask for MORE than just "ok" beat-reacting visuals (I haven't seen your visuals but it's what I take you do since you always insist on how content is not important). To take again the exemple of the wedding DJ, people at a wedding are happy with about anything midly entertaining, but they cannot be compared with musicians like, say, Radiohead, who can gather thousands of fans at their concerts.

So I think that what you do works best at the moment -- I'm sure all the promoters who hire you are happy with your services -- but IMO you shouldn't expect this situation to last forever if you insist on the idea that content doesn't matter and if you refuse to hire VJs (in the definition of "performance artists"). You may refuse to care about the other side of VJing but competitors won't.


eXhale

PS: And again, please refrain from insulting people you don't agree with, I'm going to put your posts on a moderation queue if you continue.

[LEVLHED]

hey, read this!
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/09/area2/
I especially like the bits like:
?In the past three or four years, as DJs rose as artists in their own right, a VJ culture started to form around electronic music, raves and doing visuals for those events. Now it?s really exploding. DJs have their own production tours, and VJs get booked as talent rather than as backstage operators,? says DeKam.
and:
You can truly just pack the right PowerBook with the right software and do a show. I have.?

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by eXhale
You may refuse to care about the other side of VJing but competitors won't.


eXhale

PS: And again, please refrain from insulting people you don't agree with, I'm going to put your posts on a moderation queue if you continue.

Moderation? Yeah X You do what Ya Think best..

Some Lamer want to call me a liar because he cant imagine the workings of a normal gig. and you wanna blame me?

maybe we just do things a bit diffrent in Northern Ireland, Where people arent afraid of a bit of work, and people spend time in hospital for calling others Liars, from that perspective, The moderation should be on the the long standing member who cant manage to read the posts without getting the meanings backwards (ala COX)

As for your content comments.

I'll try once more since you are all so slow on the uptake.

I,ll put my content against anything any of you can produce and not be lacking.
No I dont use beat reactive mindless shyte, Only a moron would miss the fact that Im in studio 24/7 rendering and editing and online in the process, that more than Im seeing from most of the forum, And since I put considerable more time in to my content than most ( as in comments for the group asking do iI ever sleep) I think its pretty clear that I am well aware of the work involved to keep content standards at the edge, However Im also pointing out that any artist will put in that effort and thats ground zero and no big deal, its the starting point.

Look at the DJ scene, How much effort has gone into a billoin records? so what? the DJ chooses the most relevent. the VJ may need to create what he cannot find, but none the less content is insignificant. Last years biggest reacord is todays oldie.
So X before you start moderating me for not fitting in with your forum.
lets ask a basic question.
Why can I drive to leeds and do the whole of the AVIT set up and VJ it?
But you just keep on chipping away X, Miss the point, One VJ steps up with answers but isnt fitting in,, I dont need to talk about being a VJ with frends in a chat room. I already am a VJ and that seems to be pissing of those that havent a clue where to start.

I respect the effort you guys have put into AVIT, I stepped up and pointed out the obvious flaws in your plan to avoid dissapontments, and in return I get shit and insinuations of being a liar for being one of the very few here that actually DOES this for a full time and can sort the whole thing out in a single morning. Is that showing off? Is it fuck. thats just going to a standard days work. This is what I do X, Its MY job, Full time,, have you any idea how stupid ppl look when there talking about something from the outside?
Talks cheap, as for the sites heros, cold cut, hextatic, kreil, The stuff isnt anything special, its average, if you guys cant hit that level then what chance have ya?

Wanna take issue about that stuff being average? Just like a dj a pro VJ plays his padding and spices it with a few Top peices, wich quickly become tired and drop to being old hat. so content is all old hat, that need constant replacement with fresh material, its all junk just like last years choons.

thats entry level common sense. so whats gonna make VJs from newbies? content? naw, its out of date as soon as its been played. Even a months work for one sequence. scrap. secondhand. old an used after its first screening, the truly fresh content is cam and is disposable. All content is disposable, only the generic stuff can occasionally be milked for longer, so by default the only reusable content is the truly generic stuff thats not memorable. if its good enough for impact it will be remembered like a stars designer dress. ONE SHOTs trade term for top content. Have a chat with Hex CC or kreil, about the reality of content, its a throw away commodity,
Ever watch saloon car racing? those cars are worth a fortune but do the drivers worry about that? no, thats what it take s to race and if the car gets wrecked in the process, they take it on the chin. Content is the same. to VJ your content is to use it up and wear it out. How much of a joke is it to see ppl crying over there wonderful customised fiat unos when the fulltimers are trashing porches for a living? But then I get to be wrong for saying that content dont matter and A VJ cant get bogged down with being attached to it.
tell ya what X.. why dont you impress me.

You sort the AVIT gig out, and ill fly over for a look at your best shot.
Then I'll pick a date Im not doing anything and knock up the same gig here for a day, and let you guys come do your thing for free.

I'll supply the Venue
all of the equipment so yas can just plug in to a patch bay
International DJs
the advertizing and sponsers
Film festival backing
streaming to the net
the flyers and their distrabution
The saftey requirments and insurance
The PPL and Vpl
the doormen and the refresments staff (and the refreshment bars)
Ill also take the profits and the kudos from being (TMTC)
A few phone calls of a morning to the usual squad brings that into reality and a day executes it

Would you prefer Dublin or Belfast?

Nice and easy for ya, all ya gotta do is show up.

Oh one more thing. Id be inviting a few VJs to play. Including Habs if hes able to get a break. (funny how none of you have ever mentioned Habib) Oh, Tom Thompson too. And if you want a show down Im quite content to invite the boards champions for a Head to head.
Seem to me that theres a fortune to be made out of the publicity and the gig, so X if yer game to step up, Im game to clean up.

Say 2000 ppl capacity venue, and 80 door staff 3 barcos A pair of international headline'n DJs and the international VJs head to head
Ya got enough members to pull a world champoinship X? I can set it up to shoot it out in the temple theatre dublin, An extra phone call gets MTV coverage. Any time your feelin ready.

SO Whos gonna walk the walk?

Or am I gonna listen to the kiddies give it large about ART?

Once and FOR ALL Bring it on, If your gonna call yourselves VJs nows your chance to prove it.

I'll shout ya the stage and the setting and the game

Lets clear this debate up once and for all

Step on up

G

(ps RED some twat in heres bound ta think im bluffin, Ya want slice of the heavy duty MTC action on this gift of a gig?)

[MoRpH]

Hmmmm *****....... I think NE1 was wrong to call you a liar, if you do everything thats great, I'm very happy for you, others choose not to, or maybe do some or direct riggers, or it maybe different depending on the norm in your area, like you relized in our chat the other day....... maybe try to ignore the liar bit and re-read the other bits of NE1's post he DOES have some VALID points in there.

As for your gig mate, I wish I could come to AVIT but there is no budget to fly me over, If you are prepared to pay my flight and accom. I love to come and throw down a set..... especially if I can get these controllers and software sorted :)

[eXhale]

Ah just forget it, deKam's quote sums it best.
Ah !! The great censorship threat ( moderation)?

Other than owning a board, I'm just wondering what qualifies Exhale to judge a vj?I don't mind much about *****'s opinion, as long as he is respectful. In fact I even think he has valid points since I created a forum on his request. If I moderate him I'll only remove the insults. What qualifies me to do so? Well maybe the thousands of hours I (and others) put on those sites and my unwillingness to have all these efforts ruined by a bunch of people who refuse to ackowledge that everyone of us have our own definition of what is a VJ?

On every message boards there are people bitching about moderators anyway...

[Anyone]

gosh, i never though the word liar would go so far ...

sorry... (not)
how many times have you insulted me?
ever heard of double standard?

*****, I will not back down or be intimidated by your bullying attitude
nor will I refrain from expressing my opinion.
this is a forum and I will exercice my freedom of speach
however many times you threaten me verbally or physically.

I still dont think it's true that someone doing everything simulteniously will ever produce the same quality than someone specialising in the fields I mentionned already:
content, engineering, performance.
BUT THAT'S JUST MY OPINION.

one thing is for sure, and this is NOT only MY opinion, it is a basic and universal fact that is that there is NOTHING wrong or objectionable about being a specialist.

J>people spend time in hospital for calling others Liars

oh, you clearly dont know me...dont say things you may regret...

j>The moderation should be on the the long standing member who cant manage to read the posts without getting the meanings backwards (ala COX)

if you got every single word I say correctly, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

J>As for your content comments.
J>I'll try once more since you are all so slow on the uptake.

No please dont, I understand everything you say, its just that I dont agree with some bits...

J>I dont need to talk about being a VJ with frends in a chat room.

Oh I think you do...why else would you be here?
a basic human need is to be recognised by his/her peers.
you're not above us on that point...

J>Talks cheap

then by the amount of talk you do... need i say more ?

J>so whats gonna make VJs from newbies? content? naw, its out of date as soon as its been played.

OK so can you sell a million copies of your rigging draft? NO
can you sell a million copies of a DVD VJ mix ?
time will tell... I say yay.

J>Have a chat with Hex CC or kreil, about the reality of content, its a throw away commodity

you can ask them personaly, hexstatic and Kriel are playing next VECTORS on 18 september.


J>Ever watch saloon car racing? those cars are worth a fortune but do the drivers worry about that? no, thats what it take s to race and if the car gets wrecked in the process, they take it on the chin.

in this analogy, the car isnt content but rigging...


J>You sort the AVIT gig out, and ill fly over for a look at your best shot.
J>Then I'll pick a date Im not doing anything and knock up the same gig here for a day, and let you guys come do your thing for free.

J>Would you prefer Dublin or Belfast?

Dublin... Go on... I dare ya

J>Nice and easy for ya, all ya gotta do is show up.

can I bring my content ?

J>Seem to me that theres a fortune to be made out of the publicity and the gig, so X if yer game to step up, Im game to clean up.

Oh, I see... so if we dont step up, you have a good excuse to stay dirty ?

J>SO Whos gonna walk the walk?

talk away...

J>Or am I gonna listen to the kiddies give it large about ART?

maybe we should wait for YOU to talk about art ? (as if you ever)

[/B][/QUOTE]

[Anyone]

Originally posted by Debisioux


Now cat among the pigeons time,,,,, If a she-J can do it what the fuck are the "he-J"'s crying liar about? Is there a wee hormone or two missing there ?



so who give a F* about my hormones?
For all you know I could be a man, a woman, gay, black, whatever... you got a problem with that ?

I didnt know we accepted fascists in this forum

NE1

[unjulation]

enough allready

the one thing about this space was that people comunicated ideas with each outher with, dam i'm sounding like my folks, with a civel toung, to me this space has been lowerd to the "lowest comen denominator"

the people that i used to look up to as people with knowlage have stoped contributeing to this forum wich sadens me, compounded with the obvious efects that an atitude has on newbies

it trueley is a sad day :(

[elbows]

I didnt think it had got anywhere near that bad yet, sure theres these few threads that have got nasty but I certainly hope it hasnt put people off from contributing to other subjects. I had more attributed lack of posts on other subjects due to running out of things to talk about a little!

[eXhale]

Yeah we need to start more positive threads and stop putting fire on this one...

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by unjulation
enough allready

the one thing about this space was that people comunicated ideas with each outher with, dam i'm sounding like my folks, with a civel toung, to me this space has been lowerd to the "lowest comen denominator"

the people that i used to look up to as people with knowlage have stoped contributeing to this forum wich sadens me, compounded with the obvious efects that an atitude has on newbies

it trueley is a sad day :(

Agreed.
People with knowlage are mocked in this forum.

Anyone. You dont need to dare me to put the gig on, Its a viable business opertunity that I will clean up on ( Trade speack for making a large profit )
The only thing that stands in the way of it it knowing that many of you would drop out.

Why have people with knowlage stopped posting?

When the newbiees have all the answers and the attitudes, Why should any of us share what we know?

Oh BTW, Anyone, I Havent said anything I regret, nor did I make the threat, I just told you how we react in NI to being called Liars.
But If you feel you have something to prove, I anit wlaking away worried. It shit like you dish out that keeps it nasty.

As for Quotes and websites, and perceptions of others, Qoute anything you like guys. When you can put the show on without a panic, then you have a valid standpoint, untill then its talk, ( oh yeah, I forgot I talk plenty.. then again I work plenty too )

The AVIT equivilent In Dublin is not a problem, But those to step up to the challange seem to be in short supply.

And yeah "anyone" bring your content, I'll not be needing any outside equipment for a job on that scale. And to answer you question of why Im here, I joined to check out my peer group, the trouble is so many that fit that description arnt posting because of napalm attacks from the likes of you, who clearly reckons that Knowlage is unneeded..

As I said in the previous Post. Shuch a gig is a mornings work to set up.
Whos prepaired to pick up the challange

G-MAN

[MoRpH]

Wow I am constantly amazed @ your ability to only selectively read and react to the bits you want to rather than ever addressing an entire post *****, normally convieniently leaving out the bits that actually challenge your views well. That or reading your own meanings into other ppls sentances.

Also I don't think that the comment about not contributing is what unj meant, maybe more being distracted in to petty bullshit like this rather than contributing in more contructive ways, or bringing the entire tone of the forum down in general, would be closer.

I mean this use to be a pretty positive place actually

[elbows]

Count me out of any Dublin event, I have no need to prove myself to you, wouldnt want to be around your attitude and certainly am not keen to help you "clean up"

I cant speak for anyone else but personally Id rather have an "alternatively-organised" event put together by the whole community in a relaxed way, than have one expert with a bad attitude dominating proceedings and reminding everyone else how inferior they are.

These bad vibes have given me high blood pressure. Please someone help me not to look in this thread ever again.

[Rovastar]

I see this as a reasonably healthy thread. Newbies have plenty of places to look at for ?Where can I mind a free version of xyz. How do I VJ threads.? It is one thing helping people out it is another if people do not help themselves.

There does need to be a place to discuss things. So many ?VJ?s are stuck in the past. Let?s embrace the future. But please all just be a bit more respectful. These are all important issues and this is exactly to me what the forums are about if you do not want to discuss things then just goto VJCentral and read their reviews of all the latest software. I want to see more discussions. Despite *****?s lack of respect at times (***** sorry but I feel this is true) at he gets people discussing stuff.


So I find it very hard to comment on this thread about ?What is a VJ? I have never seen any good ones in a club at all, period. I do not know if what I have seen has had ?content?.

Went to the Beach in Brighton on Friday night as mainly I was in Brighton anyway Red said there would be a VJ there. Now there were visuals but I do not know if there was a Vj. Seemed to be a slide projector which changed every 1 or 2 minutes randomly it seemed. Maybe there was no a VJ there. I dunno. I was looking from a punters point of view.

But I will be at Vectors next week to see what the cr?me da la cr?me have to offer.

Ummh the future

Content. I am from a totally different background to all of you here. None of what I do is directly content based as it caters for a home market when obviously the tastes to vary. Yet I know what we be well received as the 'best' work.

When I was at Red studio the other day the first thing I wanted to see was the best stuff he did. Now this is a lot more difficult to do for him to show than it was for me to show the 'best' visualizations stuff.

Content is one thing and I understand it is very important but I do not believe that it is as important as the majority of people here think it is. Or I am getting confused as to what ?content? is. Is content just stuff relevant to your night that you do eg *****?s shopping trolley or generic quality scenes. It is always nice to have relevant material stuff but what about generic crowds.

If we/you want to go the same way as DJ and get the same respect in the future can you always have relevant content. No. That will never happen. An international VJ cannot go out and get relevant local footage for every gig. I mean Paul Oakenfold Dj?ing in say Norway for a night does not go to the local record shop there and pick out the local tunes that people will know and love. Now that will in a way have relevant content.

He picks the best tunes and the ones he feels will get the crowd moving I suppose.

Which VJ?s are in that position.

If the Radio 1 tour with Kerl or whatever he is called said to you I want YOU for one night to do a slot because he is ill. They will fly you off now to a corner of world pay you handsomely, all the stage is set up with the latest state of the art computers/mixer/projectors if you need them what would you play?

What is your best set?

How can this set is better in the future?

This is not about relevant local content in this case. Or would people just refuse as it would not do your set justice.

I know the best stuff CG stuff I have easily. And if I add relevant crowd content (we are going to be there so I know some of the crowd) that I plan to do for AVIT it improves on this too. But I have time to plan this.

In the future the term VJ will change I personally think that a VJ will be less and less about projectors and setting up equipment and more about turning up and playing. I also feel there may be less local relevant content for these international VJ?s - the residents VJ will do this stuff.

Thoughts, comments, abuse??..

PS Totaly up for Dublin *****. Seeing other peoples veiwpoint is the way that we all grow.:) + I am not scared of the challenge I realish in in fact esp if I use my stuff in conjection with another VJ. :)
(Quickly Reading the 3 new post: Yeah *****, Totally I think you can make profit on this it should be easy to make this. Esp if you get us all there for cheap.:) )

[LEVLHED]

You know morph, I was thinking the same thing about *****'s selective attention to detail...could of swore I told him earlier in this thread that if he doesn't respect the people here that are currently focusing on the art side of it, he should expect the same amount of respect in return.

Elbows, I was thinking the same thing last night.

As for the moderation of any thread here?
Nah...we're still just talkin'online after all. I actually appreciate this oppourtunity to see what happens when people are allowed to express themselves freely in this kind of format. Especially a bunch of dudes and dudettes who call themselves VJs...hence the attraction to VJforums...

So, what is a VJ?

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
As for the moderation of any thread here?
Nah...we're still just talkin'online after all. OK I'm pretty sure that X just meant removal of cuss/swearwords and pointless insults.

[elbows]

Actually Id like to apologise for my tone earlier, I am one of those people who sems to get emotional too easily over messageboards.

What pains me most is I can understand the main points ***** is making, I agree with a lot of them, but still cannot see why these issues realy need damage or split the community - like yogurt knitting lefty socities, cant we celerate our diversity?

I mean, personally I wont even do a proper show until I have something different/unique to offer, audience participation and a real onstage presence are the focus of my future-thinking, hence my insane adventures with my credit card despite never having made 1p profit fom VJ stuff.

I guess for me it boils down to personality incompatibilities or something, rightly or wrongly I percieve ***** as placing himself up high and casting judgement down on the "inferior beings" gathered around, and if theres one thing that gets my back up its elitism.

[LEVLHED]

Originally posted by MoRpH
OK I'm pretty sure that X just meant removal of cuss/swearwords and pointless insults.

yeah, but where does it stop then? define cuss words and insults....

I think its just easier to let the freak flags fly...spontaneous free expression of life and meaning and all that jazz...


or maybe I'm an idealist

[MoRpH]

Hmmm I can see your point LEV but where do you drawn the line I mean it can really de-volve into something VERY nasty :( and VJC was NEVER about that :(

[eXhale]

Wow very good points, Rova and elbows :)

And LEV, I agree about letting things go, this is why I have never really moderated anything, but there are other members here & I don't want the whole community to be "spoilt". Just removing the insults is a good way to go back to more respectful interactions.

[Anyone]

*****, put your money where your mouth is:

set us up a web site and show us why we should think you are so great.

or is that too difficult ?

NE1

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by elbows
Actually Id like to apologise for my tone earlier, I am one of those people who sems to get emotional too easily over messageboards.

I guess for me it boils down to personality incompatibilities or something, rightly or wrongly I percieve ***** as placing himself up high and casting judgement down on the "inferior beings" gathered around, and if theres one thing that gets my back up its elitism.

I openly admit Im no diffrent,

I do cast that elite thing though, But not with a high n mighty intent. more because Im at a level of having been through it.

I was the newbiee once, and clueless. Now Im so long at it that its a profession and the jaded cynical attitude comes from knowing its work (work I love, but still work). I want nothing more than See VJs catch up, so I have ppl who are on the same level who shoveling in the same shit.
Thats not what Im getting here though. One or two ppl have kept up a continious attitude that riles me. I wont even bother explaining why cause Unjis link in the thread "relevent" has a description of the "STAR DJ" who had 6 months experience and all the answers. The rest where funny but that was just too true to type.

Every GIG, there some fuckwit wanting to tell me his bro's a VJ or how their a VJ and bought a piss ant 1000 anci Beamer in PC world and "ya should see some of the screen savers he has"
Meanwhile I work "where the buck stops" and often responsable for Visuals from the ground up on gigs like the R&B extravaganza In the "point depot" for 8000 kids with out a chance of a second opinion from an equally long in the tooth realist.

I seen too many gigs turn serious where ppl have died (lampys out of cellings), or kids dieing from o d'ing on drugs laying on a stretcher 6ft behind where Im working, it kinda hard to see VJing as just a fun Hobby. Its has a side that is work and the reality is sometimes fatal. beginners excitment becomes tiresome after a while

Respect works two ways, it just happens that I have been seen and done it, and Im still doing it. Id like to see more guys on the boards that I can chill with. But when Im getting continious attitude from any self labled VJ thats no notion of whats it like out in the muck and shyte of Vjing i get pissed off big style.

The post about wanting to make life easy and go commando style bugged me cause theres no real work for those guys other than warm up to the VJs that have the kit (and yeah i dont see local club work as real work when clubs are snapping up automations like eurika and rovas idea, about hassle free and one stop solutions )
Big clubs are dying and the concert/stadium/rave work is already well covered by the old school who just arnt interested or impressed by artist only VJs, more to the point most of us are rivals but have only respect for VJs with a reputation for a term common in the pro scene, MTC which is an abreviation for " man that can"
Bizzarly The MTC attitude is only about results, Its the only thing that commands any respect in a VJ. Thats the second thing that riles me on the board. Wishing that ppl would respect the work that goes into the job is a thing that any VJ whos been out there a while leaves behind. ( Morph mate you know that yourself from a few weeks back) sticking to that notion only hold a VJ back. So results are the only driving force that can sustain ya. And the results are constantly getting more challanging as Rova pointed out, relevent Content and one shots are getting harder to reach on the pro circut, yet heres a forum with many of the guys convinced that they have what it takes and its about the ART,, yeah right... And every bedroom DJ is a star waiting to be discovered and hey,, dont they all say the same thing?, their work is awesome, the art and the skillz are unmatched and all they need is the break?
If you think Im being condesending by saying, Fuck off with that shit, Im sick of hearing it. then your right Just as working DJs cant be arsed with the cliched bedroom DJ thats biggest audience was their tape deck, I cant be arsed with cliched instant VJs telling me what a VJ is isnt or anything else about the trade.
Is that so unreasonable? the only reason Im still posting is because i realised that some of the board are Out working and getting there, and while those Guys arent just so jaded with the realitys that come with the turff, they are realistic enough to know what Im saying rings true, and be worht chatting too.
meanwhile I have Insecure idealists on the attack every two minutes and feel responsable enough for any newbiee reading these threads to respond with facts and common sense, however patience rang out long since and feigning respect for idealists was never my strong point.
Im well aware that respect breeds respect. I respect only TMTC principle and do so from a professional viewpoint. thats something thats not reciprocated on the forum in general, so If you feel my attitude is disrespectful on occasion, youd be right, Ive put more in on this forum than Ive had back, (In fact Ive had presious little back, since as rova indirectly pointed out, theres not much going on outside this thread that isnt newbiee related) Ive been biting the bullet, if i expect development in the forum, I gotta hang in to see it grow, But dont expect me to be pleasent about it while im under a constant stream of napalm. ive said before, Im thick skinned and it isnt bothering me particularly, i just bat the ball back. however This forum has (according to some) gained the benifit of my experience more than once, in return Ive seen only grudging acceptance or plain ignorance from a few determined to be assholes about it.
Sorry lads I can't help you sort that one out. but as Unji said
Why should anyone with first hand knowlage share any of it if we are seen as High and mighty instead of respect being granted for sharing hard won experience.

Ive been accused of being a liar, a theif, and egotist, elitest and arrogant. Yet a few share the respect for experience and are prepaired to sawp straight routes to results. Their genuine respect is worth this crap, and some of the newbies may yet gain. as for the rest, Why should I care?
I give freely, when the board attacks I defend.
wheres the problem? this thread is well read and active.

ease up any time yer ready
but it may help to have a quiet word with a certian eejit that keeps missing the point.

G

Ps Rova, no need to apolizise for speaking out on my attitude, its not like im unaware of it mate, fire with fire etc. And yeah if yah wanna gig Dublin, ill count ya in Pm me a tel no and I bell ya to run over a few posabliitys.

[Anyone]

Originally posted by Anyone
*****, put your money where your mouth is:

set us up a web site and show us why we should think you are so great.

or is that too difficult ?

NE1

[secretsauce]

There is a valid professional point to be made here. There are issues of semantics that do come into play with hiring and getting paid a wage and the perceived value of a service or ones place in a hierarchy at an event. It's delusional to believe we will change the world. It's pathetic to complain about some unexisting market and only points out those who are hobbyist and not professionals who depend on this work and have little to no time to write about it not being there in all of it's mythical forms. This is a lie. There is work, but there must be value to your work. There is usually either a directly specific demand for your services usually where a client knows exactly what is needed and you are hired to produce it. It's a job. Or as an artist you are talented. You have developed your skills and chops with your instrument through dedication. And then if you have the opportunity, luck, to be seen by a large number of people. You still are no where without the sensitivity to communicate something to an audience that is meaningful and touching and perhaps inexpressible by any other means other than visually. Only then do you have value, but you still have to consider is your intent honest, positive, jaded, naive or immature is what your saying mean anything. Are you telling a story or are you just making eye candy. Are you a technician, a craftsman, an artist or are you just someone who thinks that by talking about something that makes it real? The label is meaningful. More so I believe in financial terms and creative control. An artist is left alone on a tour. There job is to make art. A video tech is a soldier. He has a commander he is there to do a job.

I am friends with the person who ORIGINALLY coined the term "VJ". He has it well documented so please don't fight me here. He was asked by Mtv a year before they went on air if he had any ideas for names for the video announcers. He gave them VJ or video jockey. Originally he was triggering video tapes and mixing them together. He controlled the decks with a custom midi trigger circuit years before anyone else even had the idea. In essence he had create turntables for video because he could start and stop them when he choose and could adjust their playback speed. So it seemed meaningful that he be called a Video Jockey. Video being "Video tape" and not the term for the "Video signal". An electronic signal that goes thru a conversion from light to voltage, then a distribution means either on tape or by transmission and a redisplaying of images electronically in one of several world formats like NTSC PAL SECAM etc. In this case "video" is a term much like film which is a that case is chemical medium and physically distributed. In film we have even a longer history of visual performance. Where they used film loops and created experimental films and experimental animation and they would layer them in a performance with other films, slides and parabolic overhead projectors that had various secret mixtures of highly saturated and highly toxic oils and minerals. Together creating a collage of imagery. You can even go back to the 20s and 30s and view works of Oscar Fischinger combining abstract animation to music in ways that still have not been rivaled.

So back to the issue. I suggest that the term Vj was originally expressly intended to mean a person who mixes "linear" and now "non linear" video which is prerecorded or live together such as would a dj. A dj works with a record that he or she can play forward backward, scratch, and skip through. The addition of nolinearity and playing video from a computer is also inclusive to VJ just in the same way that cd-djing is now accepted as djing. Now back in the old day groups like fluxus in New York were doing experiments with video signal and reproduction. Nam June Paik was doing experiments at the this time with televisions and magnets. He was distorting the electrons path to create abstract patterns on the screen. He in a sense was filtering a 60 Hz oscillator much like a music synthesizer filters a tone with a resister. He thus coined the term video synthesizer. Referring to the signal not the medium. Then Whitney Sir and Jar expanded that world immensely. Whitney Sr. being the man who invented the slitscan for film. All of these things combined became video graphics. Which has it's own history and equipment much of which only still exists at CalArts north of LA. Unfortunately almost all of these forms came close to dying in the late eighties early nineties. And now are once again becoming popular with those who realized there value like analogue synths.

SO I say if you generate images directly on a computer with a program with little to no input source material. If you are synthesizing and then outputting to one of hundred of "video" formats including progressive and interlaced at any refresh. That
is for no better currently popular term a VISUALIST.

If you use Video on tape or a computer and you play it mix it process it reorder it, but the source is captured reality or synthesized by someone else and stored on a medium that you now have, but there are discrete video frames. The ordering of which is the performers territory. It's their art. This is Vjing and it is just as cool and can be very effective perhaps some of the most even if your playing others work. Mixing is truly an art.

If your fuck up TVs with magnets and such then you are historically a video artist. Sorry it's true.

If you plan or want to get up on stage and be the draw that everyone is there to see and your a self proclaimed "Visualist" Well I'm sorry your trippin. Because people don't come to see "visualists" they come to see artists. And artists who play music and produce meaningful visuals simultaneously will be judged first by their music and then the visuals. Without the music there is no point to the visuals. NONE! You might think so, but it's true. If the visuals suck, but the music was awesome people won't care, they'll notice, but won't care and leave thinking it was a great show. If the music sucks, but you have awesome visuals well guess what. People will leave or watch as curious people. If both are good then you've got a chance at getting to the idealistic place we all dream of in our hearts. So let's not kid and waste each others time. Join a band if you want be on stage and get credit. Bands love this shit. Demand to be an artist, but realize generating derivative images from some visualize is not that. And if you plan to do both like my partner and I are. Well my best advice and idea so far. Pick a name if you do visuals for someone else to pay the bill use your name with (live visual set) next to it. if it's live. And demand that your name is put with the musicians and doss. So people think ok I get it there musician who do visuals and this time they are just doing visuals or the are artists that do visuals. Then when you do gather the time, money, skill and balls to do both. You can list your name with all the other musicians without any other shit and don't worry about explaining your also doing visuals. because if your music sucks well....oh and just a request anyone referring to there work as eyecandy..well do us all a favor a cut it out and try and stop taking too many drugs and relize that's a really dumb shallow term that makes more serious artists have to explain things too much to the unfamilar.

Finally lay off this guy. He brings up some good points. Everyone who responds childlishly is obviously a wanna be. PROFESSIONAL children. It?s the difference between bullshiting and getting the next job? Maybe I would of said things a bit differently, but I understand getting mad while writing. And please I ask politely everyone SHUT THE FUCK UP about your changing the world crap. Just making one person really really, really feel something special for just a moment is all that matters. Even if that person is just you. And before you say stupid shit or start talking like you know things do some research see some films realize that visual music is well over a 150 years old. Yes they had light synthesizers in the 1800's and even before. And guess what. The only ones successful were performers, dancers and artists all in one. So don't even try it........ : )

Change a mind not the world.

Dammit my one day off..........doh!

[elbows]

Whoa that was some post above, will take some time to absorb it! Anyway thanks for taking the time to register and post your thoughts, I think you instantly added a lot of depth to this debate :) Hope your day off isnt ruined ;)

I dig your point about not changing the world, art etc. I dont know if I come across as a wannabie or a change the world man or a realist, who can say and its also very hard for us to honestly judge eachother based on our text here. All I know is I dont want to do anything in a half-measures way. Because I dont really care for money I guess Im hoping to go along the art path in conjunction with other talent, but if I never proceed beyond the realms of mediocrity then I shall stay at home and amuse only myself, and I will call myself me not a VJ or other label :D

Would it be true to say though that it is possible to "change the world" in the sense of peoples perceptions as to what to expect from a visual experience, ie what becomes the "norm" if there really is such a thing? Becuase there is another side to me that is interested in hardware development, and through this it really is possible to change things if new technology is acessible to more people?

At the end of the day Im probably after that Zen-described state like "when the dancer and the dance as as one" - when you and your performance, whatever it is, become indestinguishable and you are living your art or whatever. Oops Hippy time :D

[Jorjo]

Secretsauce.

You have siad more than most will read.
I am honoured that D,R, would take an interest
My utmost respect and
thank you

G-man

[secretsauce]

I think one can have an effect on the world yes. The world will change with or without you yes. The perception of live visuals is going to dramatically change soon. Trust me on this one. But our perception of visuality is about to make a giant leap as well. In less than 10 years all street lights will be LED driven. You know Moores Law? every 18 months doubling of CPU power...well there's another exponetinal law derived for LEDs in the 70's and well as of august they are making the upswing. You can get a 5 watt led in any color including blue aqua and deep blue that is a bright a 100 watt floodlight. For 20 buck wholesale. Thats a 20 to 1 power ratio and next year that same light wil be 100 to 1. So soon governments will change everything over because they are cheap to make and even cheaper to power and last 10 years. So at night things won't look orange anymore and the light won't flood the sky. and once again like LA in the 20s everything will be colorful in a meaningfull way. Now that's just a street light. How are we going to stand apart. I'm a firm believer that animation is about interpretation. It's an essance of thought, movement or feeling. How do you make an image sing. How can you make someone horney without images of animals or people. Can an abstact image and a sound make someone cry. It's not the technology limitations anymore. I mean I recently ranted about the general impression people had of Touch 101. It's literally the most amazing thing I've ever worked with and I mean I've used everything from 3d studio classic to softimage to maya to houdini and it's fucking insane and my partner and I went insane for about a month because we kept on trying to find the limits and lost it. Then I realized for 12 years I've been playing a game with technology one where I'm sort saying hey you can only do this well I'll prove I can push it farther than that. And that was cool I made a film that people thought was impossible to make on a pc in 94' I won in 94' Today my film looks dated in rendering terms, but holds up aesthetically. So to me the question of the ultimate look is far less important than the ability for us to express ourselves immediately in the moment the same way any musician does. And really while your at it why not just make the music at the same time it's not that big of a leap. This art form I believe does not stand on it's own and should not. I should be seen as the glue that bonds every form of art together. It should unify dance music film art performance into one. Then it has merit. Then it has context. Then it has meaning. then it has value and ultimately it has the most potential to amplify the expression of people not a fucking computer aesthetic. I see all of this as a means to amplify and unify. Whether it be technology or human expression. If you can pluck one string a express something or make one white dot move in a way that gives it life for a moment...Then you are lightyears ahead of the latest greatest visualizer in my mind. I think we have to change our own ways of looking at this stuff before we can change others.

[Anyone]

SecretSauce,

that was an amazing post...
actually I was in the process of writing an article entitled
"what is a VJ" but now I think there's no need...

I strongly recommend (so as you dont feel your day's been a complete waste;) ) that you slightly edit your post and send it to VJCentral in the form of an article...

why... it could even stand as our VJ whitepaper !

BTW, guys, this thread's been going on for 10 pages already...
shall we call it a day and close it ?

Peace ?

NE1

[LEVLHED]

Good idea.
start a "What is a VJ part 2" if needed...

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by secretsauce
Just making one person really really, really feel something special for just a moment is all that matters. This is perfect, this has been my focus for years.

Secret, what can I say, awesome post man (maybe except for the swearing :p) so many great points, so much history and I totally agree on the VJ/live/performer angle.

OK great to see this thread finally close out with such and informative and well written post.

[Rovastar]

I cannot be bothered saying anything now.....:)

[Rovastar]

Only joking....:)

First off secretsauce a very intelligent and well written article. It does sum up VJ to a degree at the moment I feel that you hint/raise points that are general with the risk of offending no-one. So we may go slightly off topic mods but that is what threads evolve and discussion is promoted.

I do find it intriguing that the different and diverse backgrounds of us all here so influence our viewpoints. Obviously we have different tastes and massively diverse backgrounds.

Now after being told in your chat room and via your website what you are and where you are from (sorry but like many VJ?s here I had never heard of you as from a slightly different background). But are you really talking from a VJ perspective as in doing live pics to live music where you do not know what is coming around the corner.

We all know that visuals do not put bums on seats we make them a

?Animation is about interpretation?. "Demand to be an artist, but realize generating derivative images from some visualize is not that.?

Now I presume by that you mean that each piece of music you want to encapsulate an image/animation/feeling at that point as see by you at that time.

Now I animate on interpretations but it is all interpretations of many combinations of sounds. It is a lot easier to create a set of animations for a certain pre-recorded piece of music ? That is why music video can look so good compared to live no knowing for sure what is coming next stuff. We will never match a pre-recorded music video quality and design and style to the music.

I feel you are say you have to be physical there for people to get a sense of ?seeing the music?. Human are bright but they can be tricked easily with advices in music detection and real time computer generated images, etc thus running a mindless visualization people can believe that the animation has been interpreted by a human being who maybe even wrote it for the song just for you esp true if it CG stuff to non vocal and recognisable sounds. We must realise who we are dealing with I public do not understand, we are ?expects? in our respect fields so we know but we make a small percentage of the punters/public. Also the punters are mostly high on drugs so you must also carter for that marketplace.:)

I feel you see no worth/art in this and although not a VJ as such I feel it is old school and na?ve to have such viewpoints.

?And that was cool I made a film that people thought was impossible to make on a pc in 94' I won in 94' Today my film looks dated in rendering terms, but holds up aesthetically.

So to me the question of the ultimate look is far less important than the ability for us to express ourselves immediately in the moment the same way any musician does.?

"Then it has meaning. then it has value and ultimately it has the most potential to amplify the expression of people not a fucking computer aesthetic. "

Brilliant that you did such a pioneering piece of work at that time and you admit that it is dated rendering wise but is it still aesthetically pleasing? You may say hold up but to me that is saying it is OK. I pose the question could it be more aesthetically pleasing I would saw most definitely so. Many computer animations look dated and stale by today?s standards. Would your ?94 work win a prize now. No, of course not. But it is aesthetically good so why should it not win. Because you can have both. I re-released film often is not the same done up as actors, etc change and re-mastered films like the
re-released/re-mastered Star Wars films loss that nostalgic feel. But ask yourself this if the re-mastered version of Star Wars came out first would it have been better? of course so.

I feel technology he is taking a back foot and is too easily dismissed as not important. Dynamic visual music recognition is going to be more and more popular in the future as technology improves and techniques improve ? this is where is term VJ may change in future. Now this is a different way of expression oneself but is seen as less valid. People will think it has 'meaning'

The sector we are in is not like other sectors like our closest (bad) analogy ?music?. People will just pick up a guitar and play in 30 years time will you still use the same sets in 30 years time no matter how aesthetically pleasing you thought is was that the time.

We have a different marketplace/goals. We cannot compare the VJ/visuals world to anything directly thathas come before it.

I sometimes compare it to the computer games industry Pacman released now will not have an impact at all as kids today will not be impressed. This is true of most types expect of this except maybe the ?puzzle? genre.

(edit: Remember I too work with 'live' sound just as a traditional VJ would. The different is I have work out what the screen will do before that sound happens

Phew.......was the post good enough *****. I did try. The pressure, the pressure:) ;) )

[LEVLHED]

oh well, here we go again...

[Jorjo]

excellent Rova,, Bollox but excellent :)

Supose your gonna want me to back that up?

Pity.. I thought it looked good on its own..
OK here goes.

For the most part I agree with your that Soundreactive is awsome new technology
on the otherhand , is irrelevent to the VJ other than its "Smart content"

(ive been wrecking my brains for the right metaphor ) here goes

Smart content is by its self no more relevent than any other content.

yes it can do a show on its own, and do it effectively.

But (hehehe lets try me metaphor) the auto pilot can fly a plane on its own and do it effectivly.

"Smart" content has no additional effect on the VJ. Its still only a source and nothing more. A cam on a dancer or a lead singer is just as sound reactive and dosnt affect the VJs task of mixing content other than being available or not avalible.

I still hold with the basic position VJs job is mixing all sources (which dosnt mean the VJ has to create the initail content, but dosnt mean ya cant), so what odds, if the source is live/active/soft/ or tape? or in a simpler slant. the VJ mixes what hes got infront of him. that means he selects it and mixs it live but dont mean he HAS to be the one to create the source.

(heem theres a possible definition. The vj is always responsable for creating the output. and although he can, hes not responsable for creating the source)

that would suggest that a visulist is responsable for creating source visuals and have no need to condsider mixing external content.

Granted active softs would give content an edge for a while, but then what?

Perhaps if I suggested that the Visulist has a harder Job to create worthy standalone content than the VJs whos task it is to select, and mix it to the occasion, then you active soft role has a foot in both camps. one one hand creating content like the visulist, and on the other reacting to the music as the VJ.

But then, A visulist has a depth and grasp that active softs dont, and the VJ has the ability to READ the situ live and mix content from any source, which agian active soft can't.

The auto pilot isnt sentinent, its only as good as it algorithyms (Ta for that word James) and its sensors. its self contained and limited, thats not to say that having an auto pilot is a bad thing, But it kinda scuttles you argument that it will change much for the VJ.
An auto pilot is by definition the result of the amassed wisdom on how a plane should be flown safely. No style or flair, just effective and bland.

I reckon its a handy tool, and am happy to have it. but its not gonna replace the VJ in any environment where its a VJ with flair thats required.

(they generally dont dust crops or dog fight on auto pilot)

now i gotta fit the Visulist into the metaphor (heemmm)

Test pilots. whos job it is to push to the limits of the possibilitys of what can be done kinda equate to the visulist who has a vision for a specific peice.. and just as the test pilot can prove the extreame and find the something new that hadnt been possable before, its quickly absorbed By the regular pilots as a seat of the pants skill. eventually it gets down to the auto pilot.

so to complete the metaphor

the visulist is pushing into new ground like the test pilot
the VJ is juggiling every thing he can to get through a flight in all circumatances
and the auto pilot is nothing more than a distilled version of the two.
Unfortunatly there is a catagory of pilot whos level of required skill is so bog basic that he will be replaced by the auto pilot at some stage.
Me thinks they be easlily spotted any will have serious issues with you products rova.
As for me, I reckon your VJs auto pilot is a cool plan and am more than happy to use it to chill when the pressures off. but naw i dont see it changing anything much.

Well no,, thats not strictly true. i can see how it and stuff like it will trim off the number of eejits that think that being a VJ is to do nothing more than your progams can do already..

birng it on and the sooner the better.

G


Can a VJ stay ahaed without becomeing a Visulist too?

I reckon there a Visulist in every VJ.
but not so the other way around.

my main gripe, can a pure visulist have a perspective on being a VJ ? IMO To mix from all sources requires a certian professional detachment from the sources to remain objective.
thats also true of Djs (how often do Djs play stuff they hate but the crowd love)? yet the musician / composer will only play what he considers good?
The barman will always serves drink without caring if He personally likes the tase of the customers choice. thats a professional truth. But he doesl care if that taste is not as it should be. How would it go if as a purest he said. NO you cant have that, I only serve what I think is nice?

perhaps then the VJ is like the bar man who can concoct and serve anything that works on the night.
and the Visulist is a manufacturer of exotic blends that have a limited appeal,
but where would the barman be without them? And how usefull would Rovas automatic vending machine be?

G

[unjulation]

hmmm....

now i think we might be geting someware with this little mutent baby of a thred

[MoRpH]

Yep I think so too unj.....

*****, you don't think the barman can serve the drinks he has to make but still recommend to ppl some of his own creations :) I do it everyweekend, almost every gig I do these days has a theme, so I create content to that theme but I also like to use plenty of other original (non-themed) material, load of other samples and cams........ I think you can do both as long as your not to precious about your non-themed stuff.

/me goes back to making themed content for this weekends show with Vadim/Russian percussion

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH
Yep I think so too unj.....

*****, you don't think the barman can serve the drinks he has to make but still recommend to ppl some of his own creations :) [/I]

NO MORPH, Thats what pisses me off. I didnt say that at all. you are implying I said the opposite of whats in my post
, read it again.

I have said clearly that it not nessaserry for the Barman to make anything to be the barman, its his job to select it and serve it.

Ive also made it clear in the post that in absence of what a VJ needs for content the VJ may have to resort to creating it. and that the creation isnt what makes him the VJ, id say its more the knowing what he needs.


<Snip>
Can a VJ stay ahead without becomeing a Visulist too?

I reckon there a Visulist in every VJ.
but not so the other way around.

<---->

For some perverse reason you seem to ignore the fact that I also create my own content because its the only way I can get what I want. however I dont get attached to it and see it as totally expendable and the issue of creating it myself as being nothing to do with being a VJ other than selecting it as output when needed..

And with the thread back on the track I started it for.
We all seem to be agreeing that theres a diffrence between VJs and Visulists, However due to a shortage of off the shelf content the Vj is currently almost obliged to make what he selects.

That dosnt mean we should Change the role to mean that He has to be the creator, or that creator only be confused as a VJ.

The Vjs role includes being aware of all involved in getting the image to the eye since its part of what hes controling.

The visulist need only supply a finished product for transmission.

[MoRpH]

OK cool thanks for the clarification on that *****, and I admit I agree that you don't necessarily have to create original content to be a VJ and yeah it helps if you are AWARE of all involved in getting the image to the eye but you don't necessarily have to set it up yourself or own it (just like the barman don't have to build or own the bar :) ) like I said the other day in chat I just direct or have it pre-sorted, I don't like to wear myself out b4 a gig too much :D

Hmmmm a question then if this barman has this as his primary fuction, what sets him apart from other barmen??? Maybe his sense of style in the delivery of said beverage??? or maybe in the way he mixes the spirits with the mixer??? :D :cool:

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH

Hmmmm a question then if this barman has this as his primary fuction, what sets him apart from other barmen??? Maybe his sense of style in the delivery of said beverage??? or maybe in the way he mixes the spirits with the mixer??? :D :cool:

[B] TOTAL agreement.


Good bar men are as hard to find as hens teeth, no they dont need to build the bar but then a VJ dont build projectors.
the bar man does lay the bar out and all the better if he can desigin it to suit any occasion. Same with VJ.

What makes the Barman of VJ special? his ability to read the situation and responed to it with flare and take a fairly mundane occupation and add something that sets it out as interesting if not spectacular. which is why I dont see Rovas softs as a threat, I see them as the usfull tool they are for when there nothing much to be done that requires flare or the experience to resucue a gig from a tough spot.

hence the Vjs talent is totally diffrent from the Visulist or the automation that provides what it provides hoping the cword appreciate it.

Id place the Vj in a group of strange ppl that conduct stimulis by surfing on the tip of the mood of the audience and can react fast enough to not fall off.

Reaction being the key

Where as a Visulist presents their art for inspection,
the VJ dishes up the selection on demand and in style.

Two totaly diffrent outlooks.

A VJ can be a visulist and select his own work if or when apropriate
but a Visulists work is a display regardless of the mood or audience reaction.

Which is why Ive been saying It cant be only about art,
The VJ is there to deliver considered effective quality content with flare, and not be caught up thinkin the VJ should be educating the public about ART and ignoring what hes there for in the process.

hence me taking the hump at anyone tryin to tell me that VJin is about ART. Its NOT, no.. never, not even on a bad day.
Art is exactly what its not about.

G

[MoRpH]

OK well yeah I pretty much agree with that.... however for me the art is in the MIX. conduct stimulis WITH FLARE by surfing on the tip of the mood of the audience and can react fast enough to not fall off. sounds pretty right :) but then again I have never personally been into the arty farty side of video... but thats just me :)

BTW the cleaner should layout the bar :p

[secretsauce]

First off If people are checking out the web site I apologize for it's out of dateness. We have been very busy and it's currently not the best reflection of where we are at. You can see my partner Jim Ellis performing with Touch 101 on the Rush tour at www.derivativeinc.com - then click on behind the scenes of the Rush tour. As for myself I will be releasing details about the secret weapon soon. (don't ask it's a secret) If anyone is in LA saturday let me know. As far as the Rush thing goes. This is a job. It's not so much a reflection of our personal aesthic or goals, but Jim does perform close to 80 percent of the show every night and it has led to more opertunities. Anyways thought I should put out a bit of current background.

OK shortly.

I agree that auto-vis should be viewed as another element. A layer or ingredient. I mean how many musicians program the highhat to there song on stage. Quite a few I'm sure, but the point is that automation is necessary to enhance the complexity if an image. Especially when your alone. Even if your just using a Redsound beat extractor as I am for generating midi clock to sync to. I mean I could tap it in, but I just don't have the time. Not relying upon these softwares to make your whole show is fine. If that's how you see your art that's fine. It's valid.

Everything a vj/visualist can do is valid. Nothing is sacred, But consider this.
What made the Chemical Brothers famous?

What will set you apart from everyone else?

What tools do we share that might create a collective feeling or aesthetic idea of our art in peoples minds? Good or bad.

Does a tool or technology lend itself, or fall into a certain aesthetic range that might not neccessarily be the artists? But moreso the software creator's or perhaps even a more generic collective idea of sound visualisation? (ie trailing waveforms.)

Great so the bartender thing works, but who goes to see
BJ Monkeydick serve cocktails. (that's bar Jocky, btw..)

If you don't think what you do is art please limit you response. Tradesman and artists are two different things and I respect them both equally, but please respond to the artistic issue if possible.

Oh I the idea of following the mood and showing anything to keep with it is great I can see the point there. Use anything to reach a means to the goal. That's cool. Who cares if you made it as long as you have permission to use it. There is plenty of artistry in that. I mean who here would talk shit about bullriding......? yeah maybe, but let's see you do it.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by secretsauce

If you don't think what you do is art please limit you response. Tradesman and artists are two different things and I respect them both equally, but please respond to the artistic issue if possible.



Whoo a there dwight. (that points obvious)

The debate was started by me because of a post where I was informed by another member that To be a VJ was about displaying his ART

The term ART as im posting has kinda been clear as the classical solatary artist paint it and then display

not as in the art of flowing interpritive aspect of mixing and displaying in a live moving environment

accepted that both are the same tools and the same medium. But the debate was launched to define the live mixing aspect that is the root of being a VJ since another member had decided that this aspect wasnt important and that he could be considered a VJ without it.
IE its about ART as apposed to its about mixing and art incontext.

To follow what you posted. then fair enough
The VJ is a tradesman
the visulist is an artist
But the vj must also be an artist to some degree
but can the idealist visulist every be considered a VJ unless he is also a trades man?

Why would any of this matter?
thats where it started, When the artist patronronised the tradesman for having a selection of trade tools and could not see the one of the two aspects that make up the VJ.
obvious as it may seem now.
At the beginning of the thread there was no handle or distinction.
there was only ART
This long and winding debate has established that there is a diffrence between an artist thinking he is a VJ and a VJ thinking hes an artist.
Semantics and generilisations have made it a difficult destinction to issolate the diffrence in form and requirments required for the VJ to create contextual Art on the wing being as diffrent from preprepaired art put on display. A very subtle but meaningfull diffrence
One is a VJ. the other dosnt know hes not.

[Anyone]

sorry no more time for masturbation...

not reading this thread anymore...

moving on...

please report bullying to Xhale...

for future personal insults please send email...

good luck, NE1

[secretsauce]

I believe my words are being misconstrued. I in no terms meant to define a VJ as thus and a visualist as something else. In actuality my initial post was a way of outlining some history fact and reference to the terms not there currently disputed meaning. That's the problem with this list is people have too much time on there hands to contemplate the definition for the indefinable. Maybe they aren't working enough or aren't getting enough credit or something. If one must use labels then I was merely giving out historical context to their origins and derivative source. To me it's ridiculous in fact to place so much meaning on either of these terms giving the lengthy history of visual music. Who here has even heard of the IOTA center?

I'm NOT trying to say I'm an artist and someone else is a tradesman. In fact I feel more opposition to the larger contexts than enthusiasm. Hell I got back was the thing about the tradesman.

It's usually a reflection of a person and in this case a group that lashes out/dances around the fundamental problem when faced with their insecurities. Are VJs/Visualists not getting laid enough or something?

Come on. If I can hurt peoples feelings that easily.....just wait til you have to work with a Tour manager.....

Oh well..............

....and what about what I asked the group?...

My thought is that originality and being the first one to the trough are the keys to success. Then later the tradesman and the copycats fill the middle market. That's where we get genres and perceived shared ideas of things. How many times have you all be asked...."you mean like those things in Winamp? Is that's what you do?"

Whatever.........

[MoRpH]

Secret..... you have some great questions and basis for further threads, maybe if you could post them into a fresh thread, I think everyone is a little over this one :)

[BrainStove]

*****, I?m glad you are achieving to explain your point/position now with Logic & Meassure ;), that?s the unavoidable result when people start thinking more with their Brain/Mind and less with their Heart/Passion thing.

Pity I hadn?t/haven?t the proper "english speaking skills" to be more persuasive about the topic, but pretty sure & pleased with; I could be able to throw some clues on the table contributing to this more calm down agreement thread atmosphere through my *The art of VJ'ing* Rhythm related post.

So go ahead ppl and keep everytime an EYE wide open and more connected to your BRAIN than to your HEART sometimes.

By my side I?m gonna play/watch/enjoy happily again my Norman McLaren collected videotapes and maybe my Walt Disney academy awards animated movie tape "Fantasy".

P.S. Nice to see here some other new "Hybrid Creatures" fellow Cydonian countrymans :alien:... Hehehe... Welcome on board SecretSauce!!! :D

[Jorjo]

car was once anything on 4 wheels for domestic transport, now we has sub sections like ppl carriers.
The evolution in descriptions is Vital to those who would hire us.

If we can't place a handle on who does what with a term like VJ or Visulist, the industry with face confusion at the commercial booking level.

Is it not better for a promoter to know that he needs a VJ or a Visulist for a givin production?
Is it not better to have the electrician clearly defined from the electronics engineer?

The market is limited already. why burdon it more by having vague terms that would allow the posability for a Visulist to be hired for a show where a VJ is required for a specific role. Or for a VJ to arrive fully loaded to do a live show that instead can be played from a single artistic source?

This debate isnt about what any of us do. (each of us already knows that) its was an as far is im concerned is still about the basic handles we offer the marketplace.

In my area the accepted job descriptin of a VJ is considerably diffrent from the visulist yet the visulist deems himself a VJ. No big deal, unless a promoter books a VJ and gets a visulist.

Thats not about egos, thats about confusion to those outside.
As Sauce pointed out again many ppl do concider it to be winamp and screen savers,
Whats the point of defining the VJ as more than that to promoters if we then allow a school of thought from visulists many of whom shun external content to drag us back in the eyes of the promoter to an ART display instead of the VJs art based interactive SERVICE industry.

Once and for all. if this is getting to you personally. Stop and think. ego has fuck all to do with any of it.

If i order a cheeseburger, I can expecet it to be a meat in a bun with cheese. I dont care who decided to name the thing a know as a cheeseburger, I only care that it has a name that allows me to go order one without having to give instructuions.

if a promoter Books a VJ . WHATS HE GET? end of argument.
this distinction is important only to those who dant give a damn about your art, it matters only that they know who does what so they can book who and what they need.

End result. Visulist and VJ are diffrent.
Vjs dont have to be visulists but generally are. (and have a marketable service including multiple products)

Visulists have only their product.

Why the confussion, why elude to ego, ?

The only ego is the visulist having difficulty tha nobody else really gives a damn about their product.

The trade of the VJ is growing and theres no room for fragile egos in it. and anybody daft enough to be a solatariy visulist hell bent on just *"displaying" HIS wonderfull work for fame and recignotion , needs to cop on or drop the VJ from his discription before he discredits the established market.

* Displaying. as in the purpose of the gig for this guy that the ppl exist only to view his work.

Anyways , the points been covered,
I reckon we need to quantify the term before handing it over to the public. once its out there were all gonna have to live with it for a long time. personally I thought that It was already established. the forum has shown me otherwise.
better to address that on the boards since there are 700 members and growing.. lets start with cluing the new members into there being an important if subtle diffrence between displaying and VJing before we do end up with the guy just playing a screensaver being legitamitly known as the VJ throughout the trade.

BTW. none of this actually effects me, In NI / eire, we dont have the problem, And arnt likely to since the VJs trade is well established.
Im only pointing it out because its relevent.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by BrainStove

P.S. Nice to see here some other new "Hybrid Creatures"

Your english reads better than mine ffs.

perhaps you phrase, takin out of context best discibes VJs in a way that we should be offering as our face the public.
Hybrid artist / technicain and not one or the other.

G

ps I havnt calmed / measured my posts mate. I aint changed at all. :p

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
if a promoter Books a VJ . WHATS HE GET? end of argument.


Depends on the interpretation of the term in your locale.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH


Depends on the interpretation of the term in your locale.

Great,, so we get hot dogs for cheesburgers in some places.

Naw morph,, Since 700 members is probably the largest gathering of ppl with an interest. I figure its a basic nesessety to establish a base model before adding the variations, other wise its an unmarketable confused service over run with the "its not a service industry its an ART FORM" mentality holding it back from being the sucessful route of being a balance of both.

G

[LEVLHED]

umm...honestly G, I thought we DID have it defined just fine until you came here with ruffled feathers...

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
Great,, so we get hot dogs for cheesburgers in some places.
Yep such are the idiosyncrasies of the world.... doesn't really matter what we decided on here, what matters is ppl on the ground and what they call themselves and what promoters think VJs are. I don't think a lot of ppl calling themselves VJs that are visualist by your definition are going to change jsut because you say so mate... really

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by *****
excellent Rova,, Bollox but excellent :)

Supose your gonna want me to back that up?


Not at all *****. I know where you are at.:)

The post was mainly directed at secretsauce and that everyone thought his post was perfect yet I was confused with his lack of understanding and embracing new ideas. :)

His

How many times have you all be asked...."you mean like those things in Winamp? Is that's what you do?"

Whatever.........

attitude is what I was concerned about. Which to me just makes it blatantly obvious of someone that has never tried any visualization other than WinAmp AVS, and so have decided its all crap.

But no matter some people just don't want to advance the knowledge/ improve.

It is funny ***** you see the likes of me as an artist. I dunno I didn't really think of myself directly in that way. I am artistic but I don't know I would consider myself an artist.

We have coined the terms visualist to go with VJ. But who really would notice the different at times?

Great,, so we get hot dogs for cheesburgers in some places.

Ummh hog dogs, ummh cheesburgers, ummmh pork chops.:)

[eXhale]

I don't like the word "visualist", almost all artists (non-video ones included) call themselves visualists... but that's just me :) This message board is called VJForums because it's shorter than audiovisualartistsforums.com or whaterver.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by eXhale
This message board is called VJForums because it's shorter than audiovisualartistsforums.com or whaterver.

fair enough X. So long as the service side of the industry isnt rubbished by the artist side i dont see any other problem.

As Ive said its been a long and winding debate thats touched on serious issues.

As the owner of a group containing so many Vjs you have an oppertunity to select a diffrent name than Visulist and put it into our vocabulary.

Morph.. whats with the Because I say so routine?
maybee its an age diffrence or a culture thing, But In a debate, Nothing is more than a point to be scrutinised. your shoot the messenger mentality is starting to grind. Please address my issues and points made without becoming personal. It would seem that I am not alowed to become personal or I will be banned. Do not abuse your position as co founder to allow you to get of topic into slanging matches unless its concidered fair for me to return in kind.

Did you have something constructive to say on the topic? other than the verbal equivilent of kicking over the chess baord?

G

[LEVLHED]

Originally posted by *****

So long as the service side of the industry isnt rubbished by the artist side i dont see any other problem.

G

now see? this is exactly the kind of statement that gets this thread into trouble...the service side and the artist side are one in the same to pretty much everyone but you...any attempt to debate this fact results in pretty much the same responses (i.e. VJ art=rubbish)...this horse has been beat to an indestinguishable pulp...its obvious you refuse to accept the fact that your meaning of "VJ" is different than everyone elses here..I see no point in "debating" this topic any further..I'm joining Anyone and am no longer interested in this sorry excuse for intelligent conversation...

I re-opened this thread because you promised it was going into new and interesting directions...but from I see its still just you being you *****...

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED

I see no point in "debating" this topic any further..I'm joining Anyone and am no longer interested in this sorry excuse for intelligent conversation...

I re-opened this thread because you promised it was going into new and interesting directions...but from I see its still just you being you *****...

Good. The above is again avoiding the points and being personal.

me being me is the purpose of my existance, DOH Who else would I be?

the purpose of the thread is debate, since you see no point to it then why post the above.
You are intitled to your opinion. Add it or dont. But converting it to having a pop at me is childish and lackin in value. perhaps the thread may now develop in peace constructivly without further interfearence or censorship from you.

[secretsauce]

Baaahhhhhhhhh!........

Baaaahhhhhh!.......

I fucked a goat!

Bahhhhh!

I say we call ourselves Lighthearders!.....
Yeah..Yeah....or how bought Photonflingers....?
Yeah.............yeah...!

Hey guys just kidding. I hate to say it, but everyone take a step back for a secound and look at us.

To an outsiders I'm sure we look totaly ridiculous. Arguing about what we call ourselves. It's kind of getting silly don't you think.

I know that there are professional issues at stake, but really if your doing well enough (which I hope you all are) people will know what you do and pay you acourdingly. This theoretical situation of a lable/pay structure is just not real I've found.

Personally the way I work is by telling the promoter/event coord that I must and I mean must be listed with the musicians/performers and either listed as:

Live performances by
Johney Do
Mr T.
Rickey Rat
Secret Sauce (with the Secret weapon)

or

DJ Backscratch
Dj cutegirl
Dj purplegoat
Secret Sauce (visual set)

That way I'm there with everyone else that recieves the money, respect and admiration. Plus I sure we've all seen how badly the "lighting guys" get dicked over on flyers alot of time.

Somewhere on the bottom corner. "Mindblowing Eyebleeding cartoon colory stuff and junk by special Sauce."

Note: For the fledgling beginners be carefull asking promoters for this without proving yourself a bit. They hate premadonnas, but it's so worth it to try. Then later you can require you at least get paid what the DJ makes.

[infopocalypse]

Let's agree on a few things:

First... being an *insert term here* is different in every locality with it's respect to pure technocrat versus artist versus hybrid

Second... purposes of debate aside prefacing your company/artist name with anything is nothing short of a poor marketing statement. If you feel the dire need to be called "VJ blah", then your market end result will drop as VJ --1-- will be misheard/read/assumed to be typo for 'DJ" by your average kid, --2-- your company/artist name lacks the uniqueness to be able to market yourself --3-- your individual reputation precedes you little enough that industry types will not know who you are personally, thus group you within the dredging masses whilst on a flyer, assumed, again to be part of #1.

Third -- Since 1 & 2 are undoubtedly true, there's not a helluva lot of point of sitting back and labeling oneself, except to reduce market position in the end, ergo although I disagreed with the thread being closed for reasons of topic, I think the topic has successfully become beating a dead horse.

Four -- Since 1 is true, and since people's attitudes are determined by the market conditions in their area, an agreement is not likely anytime in the future.

Five -- Sauce is right... when I tell people what I do I ask them if they've ever been to a concert with video and then say "that is what I do". Even if we are to include our numbers anyone who even remotely touches gear under such setting, laser people, lighting people, and anyone else in the world remotely related, we'd still MAYBE be up to 50,000 people in the world who make money off of this professionally, and I would personally consider that a tad of an overestimate, but I'm counting ever schmoe who works for every staging company in the world who has ever operated a lighting board, sans any element of opportunism. 50,000 people doing a job isn't much of a number to get into a debate about naming, letalone a few hundred.

Six -- Given that everyone on this board would, at least on levels, be more entreprenuerial in nature than the aforementioned schmoe who works on lighting boards for his staging company as a summer job and in between bangin Backstreet Boys bints, I think whatever term we are trying to define, in future, should hav some element of entreprenurialism in it.... remember an artist is also an entreprenuer.

My six points being made, I think this is a solid time to shut up on this thread (note: not shut this thread up, but just let dead dogs lie), and all go back to our day to day works, no matter how illustrious they may be.

[MoRpH]

Thats not the spirit it was meant in, I was just trying to answer the question and break it down, the debate here is good, I don't want to kick over the chess board, just saying its prolly not gonna make a diff in the real world, thats all.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH
Thats not the spirit it was meant in, I was just trying to answer the question and break it down, the debate here is good, I don't want to kick over the chess board, just saying its prolly not gonna make a diff in the real world, thats all.

Glad to hear it morph. there will always be the problem of misunterstanding with posts since we dont have a tore of voice or facial experssion to put them in context.
I Gotta agree with James's 6 points.

yet it stands out that a Lampy is a a lampy.
If we abandone the term Vj then backstage we become "oh Him hes the guy that does them screens".

As far as Im concerned thats that only place the handle matters.. Backstage in the industry. where its a trade name like lampy?.
If some kid wants to stick VJ infront of his name on the streets What off it?.
I never heard of anyone calling themselves "LAMPY John"
but we still know what a lampys about.
Im more concerned that a lampy ever thinks a VJ is less than his equal in professional terms because of a bunch of "VJ Jonnys" bringing our reputation down in the same way as has happened with DJs

when the VJ prefix brigade start to out number the Working Vjs who have a role to fill thats known as a VJ from inside the industry. Is it not Valid that the full scope of the VJ be openly promoted in a forum that is for many newbies the first REAL contact with Vjing in general?

Should it not be a major point in the forum to disuade kids from thinking that its ok to stick VJ before his name, download an app or two and hey presto 15mins later he's the VJ of the centuary?

Taking the long view, how long before it becomes an embaresment to VJ? For pro DJs thats exactly what happend over the past few years when everybodys kid bro got DEX for Xmas. and the pro Djs who knew the crafts of enetertainment and stage presence got lost in the "DJ great tape" world.
the new Djs dont bother with a Mike, just as new Vjs dont seem to bother with Cams etc.

Any ways, Whats it matter.

G

[BrainStove]

None VJs here,,, None Visualists here...

Only ***!!!> VIEWSICIANS <!!!*** here

Yeah, Yeah, yeah Rhythm is the matter, Rock on!!

As I said before regard Visuals replacing Lyrics in the new electronic dance music scene, we all see very soon sticked on the new Records/CDs/DVDs generation the label "WARNING Explicit viewsicians visuals inside"

So Rhythm with that!!!

P.S. eXhale, could be placed that WARNING label somewhere on the site? :D

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
Should it not be a major point in the forum to disuade kids from thinking that its ok to stick VJ before his name, download an app or two and hey presto 15mins later he's the VJ of the centuary?

Yeah true and I am a little tired of weekenders doing that along with offering free gigs, I just had to come in with only 3 days left b4 a show and pick up after them, it seems no $$$ = no responsibilty in some ppls books. So yeah I'm no fan of some guy that gets a VJ app or 2 and some clips from achive.org and calling himself a VJ 10mins later, but I would temper that with the fact that we all had to start somewhere, which is why I like the mentoring situation, you get someone to help out, they get a good grounding in essential areas

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH


Yeah true and I am a little tired of weekenders doing that along with offering free gigs, I just had to come in with only 3 days left b4 a show and pick up after them, it seems no $$$ = no responsibilty in some ppls books. So yeah I'm no fan of some guy that gets a VJ app or 2 and some clips from achive.org and calling himself a VJ 10mins later, but I would temper that with the fact that we all had to start somewhere, which is why I like the mentoring situation, you get someone to help out, they get a good grounding in essential areas

Then I think we may be playing of the same Cue sheet.
the Term VJ Re this debate, Has two perceptions. One Public and the other professional.
One is a Prefix with an app, the other is a proffessional occuupation and as you point out is a responsable trade.
How many kids watching the latest Awards show are pointing at the screens and saying "I can do that on my laptop" By the following day Him and his mate's have apps onboard a lappy and Vj prefixing their name, all they ever notice are the generics.
IF the Working VJs on the board sit back on this, How before the backstage perception of VJs as a trade becomes lost.

Agin I agree that mentoring is the way forward, and I dont have a problem with someone starting out with a lappy or a Chop edit vhs tape. What I do see as a problem is for that beginner to believe hes a VJ and theres nothing else to learn. Or more so as I seen first hand on the board. For a biginner to Take a stand that HE is A VJ already and the rest is bollox. But how do ya mentor someone thats a self professed VJ STAR all because they have pulled of a few bits of usable content?
Glancing at the latset award show the visuals are subtle and low key, and VERY inkeeping with the overall show. How many of the "VJ instant star" type could sit back from the limelight and just fill that brief?
Nothing difficult in it, but that balance of subtle moving background and perfect cues???? If the guy running that desk isnt called a VJ then why not?
My thinking is that the awards are an example of a VJs trade at its best. the artistic side is there but secondary to the event. The VJ is their donig the JOB. VJ showcasing art is a diffrent thing entirly, and granted at raves we get the freedom to do exactly that, Its a harsh truth that VJs who can Work a show are the ones who are first inline for bookings where showcasing is possable.
Theres a fair amount of effort needed to Show the newbie that the Super idea of commando style VJs is a part of the bigger picture and a genuine stand point for a VJ to operate, but to also Know that its not all there is to it. Commando Vjs may well be valid , but that style is wide open for the begginer to reach that point and think hes ready for the pro market, or that the VJ doing shows on the scale of the awards show is a technician and not a VJ cause VJs only need a lappy and a app etc.

I been watching the awards while typing this, the VJ there has been faultless in his cues and changeovers the set guys and lampys have also been awsome in keeping it tight. The only thing that hasnt mattered over much is the generic content that the screens fall back to when the focus is on the artist or presenter. yet that contents very lack off bite is what made it exactly right for the occasion.. IE quality padding. and a good VJ on the job.
How many of the newbiess would argue that it was a missed oppertunity to show their ART? That would be the same argument that would prevent them from geting the booking. or perhaps not, perhaps the downstream feeding of a VJ from a guy on a lappy with an app could become a role in its self, but would that not make them a VJs assistant? lol.

Enough already.

The idea of mentoring is the only route forward, before the weekend warriors manage to balls it up.

G

[Rovastar]

Ummh I wansn't going to say much on this subject but you got me think/ I didn't watch much (the first few minutes but the visuals I didn't notice/found uninteresting) of the MTV video music awards (that is the awards the G-man is refering too) this afternoon but in the term VJing was the person doing the visuals a VJ or more of an director in a studio like on a live TV show.

Switch to this now switch to that clip just like the director does live for the TV program. I mean the person chnaging the clips might be doing it on the cue of the show director for a big event such as that.

How much VJ'ing is there if someone is taking in your ear next,.....next........next for the clips that have been prearranged by someone else etc.

Professional and on cue maybe but not much maybe on the talent side of things.

If kids are looking at the screen and going I could do better on my laptops maybe the orginisers of such events should look at their show and ask once in a while. 'Could this be better?' This question is not asked enough at big events. This is nothing to do with the 'art' side of things or the fact of obviously the kids would have to learn how to mix etc. It is purely to do with the quailty and the need to improve.

I mean could YOU do anything better?

Did you look at the event and say this is the best possible set/selection of scenes. I mean this is probably one of teh biggest events for a VJ/video editor/director in the book. So therefore it should have the biggest budget and the best people.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Rovastar


How much VJ'ing is there if someone is taking in your ear next,.....next........next for the clips that have been prearranged by someone else etc.

Professional and on cue maybe but not much maybe on the talent side of things.
.

Now your getting somewhere rova. The Diffrence between a pro VJ and an artist. The clips where perfect, and in context, It wasnt the role of the generics to star in the AWARDS but more be there as a gentle ambience.
How can any VJ be booked for that work if his sole purpose is to hijack the show and display his art?
The Vj on that gig showed proffessionalism and a grasp of his job on the day. To say that working to Cue isnt really VJing is like saying that a radio DJ isnt a DJ,

99% of radio shows run from a selectior / Cue sheet to ensure that the music is rotated so the same Fav choon isn played every 20 mins.

Even on Big rave Gigs the DJs check they wont be playing the same tracks.
Same thing, at some point cordination is required to be certian that the overall production goes according to the plan.

Even the AVIT gig will have these restrictions, such as who when and what plays. Its how it works with any production.

The awards where a perfect example of the VJs trade at its best. the Vj made a massive yet unintrusive contrabution to the show.

And yeah of course hes like a director, A most of the time the dj is a hands on music director same as the Vj is a hands on visuals director.

Its the understanding of the workings of a director and the fields of knowlage that he needs to get most form the content/feeds and equipment that gives the VJ a reason to exist

Which is why that role is not to display his art, but IS to select mix and blend the right visual for the occasion.

The Vj on the awards did not stand out as an artist, But he did stand out as a professional, who got it exactly right, and more to the point, clearly they booked the right person for the job. Can you even begin to imagine the disaster if he had played oneshots that interupted the flow of the show?

A classic example of the obvious fact that visuals dont need to be ART,, the only need to be RIGHT.

The real sucsess of a VJ is knowing the diffrence.

To answer your quote, The person that cant play pre arranged clips to order, just isnt a VJ.

If you cant select specific footage to order how can you choose what you or anybodyelse wants next?

The point being here, that the awards are likely to have followed standard industry practice of booking the VJ handing him a brief and then him providing the samples he feels will most closely fit the brief.
The Vj that cant or wont fill the brief is usless, with a new reputaion that has just crashed and burned as the man that can't, Ie former VJ.

Sorry to busrt so many bubbles, but the industry has a role for us to fill, we may well be able to develop it further as an art form the inside but unless that role is filled first, theres no credability to the handle.

Short version.
If ya cant see that the Vj on the awards did the job to a high professional standard, What are you doing that makes ya think your in the same game?


G

[Rovastar]

(Note: Let me say again I did not see much of this show but have seen many like it and that is the basis of this)

I think now I am getting somewhere with you *****.:)

I think (as you like pigeon holing terms so much) we should have another term for these MTV music awards events VJ. Maybe ?Visual Directors? or something. You can be a professional VJ doing clubs every weekend and travelling around the country without every doing an MTV type gig.

I know that this Visual Director bloke is another valuable job but he probably could not do a club night I feel (if he is indeed as I described him) .

So ?club VJ?s? that is full-time (or aspiring to be full-time) can also be a professional also in a different way. That is sometimes how you offend people here. Sometimes you come across as to say that to be professional you have to do the big events like that.

In fact many VJ?s here I feel will be bored doing a MTV type event with someone telling you what to do ALL the time ? sure the money would be good but if it did pay the same (and have the same fame if you see fame like that) as a nice club night which would give you a more free reign on things what would you choose.

The job of MTV is to give a ?massive yet non-intrusive / unobtrusive ? display and he did that brilliantly but the job of a full-time club VJ is to give a ?noticeable and stimulating? display.:)

That is not to do with art IMHO but more to do with style. I mean that is the difference with radio DJ and club DJ.

Most see club DJ as ?proper? DJ. They do complex mixing use original content (tunes) that not everyone has heard before.
.
I am not say that Terry Wogan on Radio 2 is not a DJ but no-one would go to see him headline Fabric or something (or they might!! :eek: ;))

To me comparing ?MTV visuals man? to a ? VJ doing a Creamfeilds set? is the same as Terry Wogan and Pete Tong.

Terry Wogan an experienced broadcast cues are spot on, etc he has his value he does have to mix the recordings in etc.

Pete Tong has a different marketplace and can mix (-ish : ) ) live etc.

Most people here are going down the Pete Tongs of visuals rather than the Terry Wogan yet we still respect him.:)

As in a way the MTV man probably had many rehearsals of what to play, when, etc. whereas the club VJ will mix live (not knowing what is coming next) and have noticeably live maybe interactive content for his set. Reacting to the crowd etc.

That was your argument against automatic visualizations ***** you cannot have it both ways.:):p

:) you just love this debates don't you g-man.:)

What where we talking about oh yeah to get back on topic should we bomb Iraq. : ) : D

[MoRpH]

Hmmmm many good and accurate points in there *****, however I don't think a lot of ppl here are interested in that sort of work, playing filler background swirlies and cueing a clip when its called for by some idiot presenter.

Not saying I wouldn't do it if it was offered, easy money rocks, seems like something I could do in my sleep, but I personally wouldn't call it a MoRpH VJ show...... for that I would need far more creative latitude (and the right environment), but thats just me :)

[wellREDman]

*****, the guy doing that awards ceremony would have been a broadcast Vision Mixer, a standard job within the tv production world, he would have a background in studio mixing and is miles away from what i would term a vj,
also i would be willing to bet that the generic content was separately commissioned by the event coordinator.
at least that is the way i'm sure would happen in England

it seems to me man, that in NI you wear lots of hats, and only one of them is vjing ie your club/rave work, you also do event production management and Vision Mixing. and although you call yourself a vj (with every right to), alot of what you do is beyond the remit of what the rest of the world would call vjing.
would you clasify the guy who at say a big music festival who mixes the cam shots of the band for display on the big screens next to the stage a vj? I would be willing to bet that it says Vision Mixer on his contract and he was booked as such

that is not to say that were all really pleased to be able to learn from the insights of a professional Vision Mixer and Event Cordinator,

I think that the problem is analogous with the term DJ , which covers everything from radio chat show hosts thru wedding music selectors to the most avant garde turntablist circus tricks.
so the term vj would have seem to have to be even broader to include, veiwsicians , visualists and mixer trick jugglers (this last one needs a snappy title, anyone? it's definitaly my leaning)

I think a lot of the bad blood in this post has been down to what i said before, qualative not quantative arguements, we have been trying to give a precise definition to a thing which is amorphous and geographically varied, whilst at the same time subliminaly trying to apply that term in terms of good and bad.
ie "someone who has a lappy and a demo of resolume and some downloaded loops shouldn't call himself a vj" this is not true, he is a vj, just not a very good one (yet !)(the dj's have a term for this individual, it's "bedroom DJ". i think there would be a case to be made for reserving the title to those who've actually played in front of an audience.

the other element in this mixed up arguement which has only been touched on breifly here, but which featured more heavily in the eyecandy flamewar on this topic is whether someone who doesnt create content at all, just mixes with found/bought stuff should be called a vj, which is again a qualative statement masquerading as a quantative, you should not say " VJ XMIX is not a vj because he doesn't make his own stuff " you should be honest and say "I think VJ XMIX is a bad vj because he just buys content" which then makes it clear that what youre sayin is your opinion of his worth in the light of your own definition of the word.

it's also difficult to take on board restricting the title vj to people who can set up screens and beamers, just because in the uk there is a precedence of the equipment supplier/rigger being the same as the guy who mixes the content , this is clearly not the case in other environments and I for one would like to work towards the day when all i have to worry about is aquiring/creating appropriate content and how to mix it most effectively. and if that makes me a bad vj in your eyes then i can accept that (although i do know, so that makes me a good VJ :nod: in your definition although my personal preference would be to be judged on the quality of what i put on the screen)

i think it's dangerous territory, to be telling people what they can and cannot call themselves based on a mix of localised qualative and quantative assumptions, and will only result in a stream of circular arguements which get personal andy muddy up the already clouded water

wow essay and a half, but at the end of the day it's still just my opinion, and a promoter in NI will still expect a screen and beamer rigger when he books a vj, and one in oz will still expect to have to contact an av hire company as well as booking a vj.
maybe a better topic for discussion would be "which model would we prefer to be the widespread and how can we steer the scene in that direction?"

ok ill stop now
paul
p.s. secretsauce,...."photonflinger" nice

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Rovastar
(Pete Tong has a different marketplace and can mix (-ish : ) ) live etc.

Hu.. Funny thing. pete tong can also do the radio show..

Bazzare concept rova. So to ba a good DJ according to your view, Theres no need to be able to work within the system.

Lets just cut to the chase.

Mixing visuals is as easy if not easier than mixing choons. any idiot with a bit of hands on can pick it up. The otherside of it is about showmanship experience and most of all professionalism which include the basic understanding of the role to be filled.

the plaintive crys of the guy that cant do the rest yelling about How that not really being a VJ is pathetic. Why become a VJ only to then decide THATS not what a VJ does.

Hear we go with the kiddy Dj mentality..

doh

The guy behind the awards is a VJ, dont like it? then why would ya wanna be one?
Oh so theres no chalange in the job that guy did.. Aye right,, Any eejit can play mindless crap in a club and call it art..
The VJ who adds quality to the the job, does so knowing that theres a Job to add quality to.
The muppets who see the screen as ONLY as personal art show are just jackin off to the beat of their own ego.
Naw rova i think you ve missed the whole deal, your softs can replace those guys, because they have no more interaction with the crowd and the atmosphere than your apps.
But they'll never replace the guy who knows what he's doing and why he's booked there to do it.

maybe youd like to fly over on the 21st, and I'll give ya the chance to put that crap to Pete Tong in person. from past experience pete will be the first man up to give ya Hell for thinkin that his work is just mixin choons.

There are a bunch of ppl that want VJing to be so simplistic as to be just a weekender with an app, well fact of life , Thats bollox, If ya can't make the grade then piss off, Why should VJs suddenly become less than they are just to acommodate the egos of the newbie?
Blunt. Im about Fucked off with wannabies and part-timers strolling in givin it large about what a VJ is or should be.
That it as a basic, If you couldnt stroll in to that award show and take over the controls, then Fuck UP. As morph has pointed out, Thats easy money for high responsibility. BUT it is VJing at is most basic. Nothing complex. Nothing that couldnt be done through basic VJ kit.
Once and for all, Boring as that gig would be for a VJ used to performing in his own right, Its still VJ work.

If anbody here couldnt manage that show including cues and live feeds their not much of a VJ and should quit emphissising that fact. That gig was a day at the office ffs

(equipment can be hired by those that know how to use it, It cant be hired or bought by those that dont know it exists).

So anybody else here wanna step up and show themselves up as not being able to VJ a large but basic VJ gig?

Jasus Rova COP ON. you where making progress on behalf of your auto pilot, but that last post shows you have no notion of your intended market is about. Stick to replacing the moving wallpaper clubs guys with it.

G

[MoRpH]

I have to agree with RED I think the standard job title for the MTV gig would be VISION MIXER (I have done a little of it on a semi-pro basis b4), but any VJ worth a pinch of shit should be pretty much able to do it in their sleep as they are skills that you should pretty much have down pat.

Also as just said (in chat) again and I completely agree 13:30:03 [wellREDman] Morph> that was what i was trying to say, a vj can vision mix, but a vision mixer cannot neccesarily vj

Agreed??? Oh and that CAN should be SHOULD BE ALBE TO, IMHO :)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by wellREDman
*****, the guy doing that awards ceremony would have been a broadcast Vision Mixer, p.s. secretsauce,...."photonflinger" nice

Paul. I hear ya.
Ive never said that the VJ should be the rigger, Ive said he should know whats being rigged and Why.

And this issue runs deeper.

From years out on the road as a generic DJ and then as a club DJ
the obvious fact was that inside the trade the guys booked where the ones that know about the job as well as the mix.

The ones that could watch levels and work a crowd to order had skillz that the mix kid didnt.

It the same with VJs.
In NI we have VJs that can walk in on any job and cordinate it.

I know this may piss a few off, but that bacame apparent on the AVIT, that those basics where and are important to a pro VJ.

If you cant handle you set all the way from the source to the screen, with understanding of what goin on than sorry but with in the industry you aint a VJ. call yourself anythng ya like. But since most of you want to work and be sucessfull in this game then get with the program, fit in or fall down.
A dj that understands headroom. limiters and basic audio limitations Is worth more than a talented fadd playing monkey.
A Vj that has the solutions to a GIG is expected backstage, Not some ego.
I hate to burn ya on this Paul, but I know where yer headed and not you basicly agree, as does morph. theres more to it than what hits the screen, and if yas all wanna bring it down to being about just waht on screen, then the forum stands in the way of the guys doing the work out there hooking up.

I cant be doing with listinin to more shyte that wats on screen is all there is.

Ya think that the guys doing the booking Give a flying fuck what this forum decides a VJ has become?

Oh and one last thing. RE ya being sure that the guy was a vision mixer.

The Lick party after the awards in dublin.. I WAS The VJ, and the VJ from the mainshow turned up and joined me. In fact he was so bored from doing the main show that he took over for a while. WHICH is exactly how I was left in the company of a certain celeb that caused me no end of hassle in the press.
SO There am I booked by MTV as the VJ for the Lick party, working with the VJ from the main event, then I join a forum that tells me that Im wrong, and The rest of the industrys wrong, but any wanker that downloads an app in ten minutes and stick VJ to his name is right?

AHH NO.. sorry but that boat dont float. Vjs aint new, so whys there a forum full of new ideas on what VJs are.

who told any of you you where a VJ? who told any of you what A VJ is?
or is this some crazy commnity attempt to redefine what the industry is happy to call a VJ?

Red you got the tools and the savy
Morph has the tools and the savy.
Many of the VJs here have the kit and the savy.
The only issue is that the JOB description thats most relevent to any VJ getting booked with in the existing is being bandied about like it dosnt matter by a majority of ppl that Have no basis for their stand point. Rova being a case in point. When a plugin programmer givesout on what is a VJ, the whole things a sick fuckin Joke,

LOOK. line up for the 21st
Tent 1
testo. paul van dyke, Fergie, scott project, Joykitikonti, john do flemming, M.i.k.e / push, hemshock and jennings, John power, cost to cost

tent 2
Pete tong , eric morillo, yousef, fc kahuna, lucien foort, fc kahuna, john ceccini, steve mac, cil hamiltion, robbie nelaso.

And three more tents Ten DJs per tent

And can I find enough VJs? can I hell. I can find dickheads to fill screens but VJs
NO, guys that understand theres a Job and a brief to be filled as well as playing the content.
artists and Winamp junkies yes, But Im Looking at 5 tents over a 13hr day. Id be lucky if theres more than Ten guys in here that I could rely on to play this gig,
so instead Im fillin the gaps with tape stock rather than have some art ego piss of the promoters.
Id rather have rova play his generics than put a wannabe VJ up there to get it wrong.

Yeah lads go ahead. decide what a VJ is for yourselves.
It wont make any diffrence to finding Vjs that can do the job.

G

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by wellREDman

so the term vj would have seem to have to be even broader to include, veiwsicians , visualists and mixer trick jugglers (this last one needs a snappy title, anyone? it's definitaly my leaning)



vision scratcher?
scratch visionist / visualist / vj ?

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH

Also as just said (in chat) again and I completely agree 13:30:03 [wellREDman] Morph> that was what i was trying to say, a vj can vision mix, but a vision mixer cannot neccesarily vj

Agreed??? Oh and that CAN should be SHOULD BE ALBE TO, IMHO :)

Hu
?
Yeah morph read up a post or two, the Vj is a Hybrid of visionmixer and director, and a specilist in the gig sceen of the misic industry, (that was poooed in one of my early posts too)

its the reason we exist, and the baisis is the knowing how to handle the unusual envirionment.

like I said, Its the VJs role to play such gigs.
FFs man Ive a wall of backstage passes from working them.

It aint a vision mixer. the vision mixer live out in the OB unit, the Vjs the guy by the stage flyin the thing by the seat of his pants.

G

[eXhale]

Originally posted by *****
that last post shows you have no notion of your intended market is about. Stick to replacing the moving wallpaper clubs guys with it.

it's funny you say this now because you seem to keep on repeating that we should not do more than what the people wants, while rovastar is actually trying to push the limit in computer-generated sound-reactive visuals (nice one eh, rova? :p) once again you can take the parrallel with music, those who have success are those who are pushing limits. those who don't really care about pushing limits become bar DJ or radio DJ and provide mostly "background noise" (background visuals = wallpaper). they are useful, just like the MTV guys, but they don't really contribute to much for the evolution of music.

anyway nice to be able to have this discussion with so many insightful VJs :)

[MoRpH]

I personally use Skratch VJ, but that will be more true once I get the DM2 sorted :)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by fluchtpunkt



vision scratcher?
scratch visionist / visualist / ?

All streets on the turff.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by eXhale


it's funny you say this now because you seem to keep on repeating that we should not do more than what the people wants, while rovastar is actually trying to push the limit in computer-generated sound-reactive visuals anyway nice to be able to have this discussion with so many insightful VJs :)

Oppps if that how it comes across X then its my bad. I not sayin dont push the limits. Im sayin that pushin the limits while ignoring the nessesity of fullfilling the role is madness.

Solid example.
The tent job for the 21st
it was origionally being done by a squad of expert Vjs flying in from the UK mainland. then one or two issues arose for the promoters. First these VJs couldnt handle Cams on the Djs.. alarms started ringing for the promoter, next thay couldnt play a Vhs tape of a promo without additional equipment. "promoters warning bells became deafining" then they dint get why the promoter was telling them about load points in the tents. Alarms went bang for the promoter.
I get the call. Can I sort this. Um Insert much swearing and questioniong the promoters sanity
Next i ring these guys and low and behold, they turn out to be planning to gig with sub 1000 anci a4 sized beamers in a rave gig with pro lighting and daylight start. AS vjs they took the job on and as VJs they fucked it up because they new nothing about the reality of GIGing.
Will I come to the rescue. yaeh sure, I price it. the promoter gasps then laughs and says No seriously, how much.
Insert futher educational comments and swearing.

Im off the hook. no hassle, they can suffer for their stupidity.

Next an email, a text or two to my phone, Djs comming out of the woodwork asking me to be reasonable and cover the gig.

Lets define reasonable here a sec. Resonable is thay all want AV they dont want to chip in out of their individual fees to pay for it, but hey, think of the fun. ( i think of the fun. the joy of a muddy field in the cold light of dawn, skiteing about in piss and sick wile trying to retreve projectors with hariy arsed tent crew threating to drop the lot on the deck if we dont hurry up.) I think of the diesil and the staff wages, the price of the beamers and bulbs and the cost of any thing that breaks. I think OH what fun, I think fuck away off...........

then i think shit I gotta work with these guys individually over the next few months

SO Im bludgoned into covering the gig for the same fee (less than expenses) just because I work regularly with many of the DJs on the bill.

If there was a budget to fly in Morph. Info, red, and particularly Rova (who could fill screens for 13 hrs and sleep through it) while the rest of us battle with it.
, I'd be havin them there in a heartbeat, as it is Im choosing to cover this for the sake of protecting future working relationships at my expense. (ive done my share of freebie good cause shit over the years. this I dont need).

Why did it happen? Cause some w@^k?r and his mates called thenselves VJs and where Wrong. ( did you think I got angry on this topic for fun)?

If theres ever one thing that Morph and I both agree on its that a VJ should know How to spec a job even if he's planning on bringing in an AV company to rig it. Too many wannabees are out there masqurading as Vjs and messing up gigs for want of basic understanding of the capabilitys of the tools.

The fourm cant have it both ways, Either VJs are plug in and leave the rest to the AV or the VJ is the cordinator.

AVIT.. Is it VJs to orginise it? or should you have an AV company in?

If a guy with a lappy and a cute app is a VJ overnight. as a VJ hes get treated as the person who can sort the visuals. What happens to the rest off the Vjs how could do the job right, when the kid screws it up? the moneys wrong, (will the promoter remember how he paid light when booking next?. Naw he'll only remember the numbers not the cock up or rescue package)
the screens a faded mess the reputation of the industrys tarnished while the Kid is shouting ART. What happens? huuumph. Cue clip of kid getting professional kick in the spools and inform a good team of surgeons that they have a interesting case comming.... rectal lap top extraction.

G

So umm if anybody wants to post on the side of the muppets that screwed up... ya wont expect me to be ovely nice in my reply now will ya?

just to be clear.
(covering a kids mess at my expense has me feeling particularly intolerant of beginners playing at being a VJ)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by eXhale


trying to push the limit in computer-generated sound-reactive visuals

Whooh.. where dat come from? Hey X get that up on avit in some form... Do they come with Alloy wheels?

[unjulation]

A.V.I.T.-why dont you just come along and find out for your self?

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by unjulation
A.V.I.T.-why dont you just come along and find out for your self?
:0 unji i promised ya if can break fr for it I'll be there. Ive fiath in ya. (im thinkin more of the heavy duty piss up ya got palnned :D )

G

[unjulation]

fair play sir
as for the piss up, after the months of organisation and knowing what the day will be like your more then welcome to join in the piss up, though how coherant i'll be is anouther matter LOL

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by *****



So umm if anybody wants to post on the side of the muppets that screwed up... ya wont expect me to be ovely nice in my reply now will ya?

just to be clear.
(covering a kids mess at my expense has me feeling particularly intolerant of beginners playing at being a VJ)

***** once again you missed my point,
you cannot say that the kidz who messed you up aint vj's
You can say they are shit vj's

qualative not quantative

anyone who's fucked about with video in front of an audience can be called a vj- quantative, definining the term

a vj, who hasn't a sufficient grasp of whats needed, or who cannot handle cams, or who only buys footage (insert particular axe to grind) is a BAD vj- qualative , rating the individual with reference to his peers

like i said before, this is all mixed up because we are simultaneously having both a qualative and a quantative arguement, which can therefore never reach consensus

[wellREDman]

if a bedroom dj fucks up in a local club, does this reflect on pete tongs cred?
even though they are both DJ's

these kidz that fucked up , have they diminished or increased your cred *****?


oh and pls read the last paragraph of my big post again

[wellREDman]

maybein NI the vj and the vision mixer are the same thing, but on the mainland (and i guess the us/oz) thay aint .
Ive met some of these guys and they are the video equivalent of air traffic controllers,
and the look on their faces when they see you laying down some mad beatmixed stuff on a mx50 is analogous to a bus driver watching you pulling a wheelie on a double decker

[wellREDman]

shit ive got sucked into this arguement,
and i was gonna play it all enigmatic
arse

[syzygy]

I agree with WellRedMan here - the real problem in this thread is that some people think that a bad VJ should not be called a VJ at all while others think that any doing visuals at any level is a VJ (but at different levels)

I actually agree with ***** that to be a good VJ, you have to be interested in what happens to your signal after it leaves your scan converter / video mixer - it's all part of putting on the best possible show. He is right that the same thing is true for DJs - the most successful DJs tend to be those who understand the technicalities of what is going on between the needle and the audiences ears.

This sort of stuff gets more important when doing shows in a bigger venue. A 'bedroom DJ' can usually carry a bar event but will fall flat on their arse in a big club if they don't understand about EQ, compressors and so on. A VJ who is just starting out can usually handle a small event with a small screen and a small laptop but if they want to work in big venues, they had better understand the capabilities of big projectors, what is possible when hanging screens, how much power everything is going to need and so on.

I can see why some people want to work only on content - specialisation is a good thing. BUT, I honestly think that if people like this want to work big gigs, they are going to need to get together with more technical, hands-on, people and form a crew that can provide the whole show (hardware and content) - I just don't see many promotors who are using big venues hiring a pure content VJ at the moment - they've got too many other things to worry about.

***** - I can understand your annoyance about the VJs who overreached their abilities and underquoted for the gig that you are now having to cover and I am starting to see your points in a new light - if I replace 'not a VJ' with 'is a bad VJ' or 'is a VJ that is not ready for big gigs' in your posts then I agree with them a lot more.

Me and my VJing partner are not ready to do really big gigs yet - I've got a background in club lighting so I understand a fair amount to do with power, hanging, rigging and so on but I still wouldn't be confident to quote for a full visuals rig at a big venue - if we were offered such a gig I'd have to seek advice from those more experienced than we are. We're gaining experience doing smaller gigs and learning all the time. We're not top-flight professional VJs (yet?) but I'd still call us VJs (we actually appear on flyers as "visuals:", "live visuals:" or "video installation:" depending on what the promotor thinks suits the night best)

So, in summary (this turned into a rather long post...) I agree with WellRedMan - it's a a question of quality and scale. The term VJ should, I think we allowed to apply pretty widely just as DJ does, but there is definitely a difference between a VJ that can handle big gigs and a VJ that can only play a bar. This difference will be based on reputation just like it is with DJs. Promotors that try to save money by booking a VJ with no reputation for big gigs will get burned just like they would if they booked an unknown DJ to play a 8000 capacity event.

SyZyGy

P.S. - I'm actually finding this thread quite interesting now...

[ristuuk]

Yeh ***** with you on that point, you should be able to speck a venue-hopefully be able to rig it yourself or at least know the principles.
i once did a gig where the screen and priojector were set for me[not by crew] and spent the next 30 mins trying to explain why light will not pass through a solid pillar. common sense to most of us but not to everybody.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by wellREDman
shit ive got sucked into this arguement,
and i was gonna play it all enigmatic
arse
lmfao.

Doh the oevrhang in a double decker prevents this.
Naw Paul i get you drift. I prefer to just have a level of starting point.
g

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by syzygy


***** - I can understand your annoyance about the VJs who overreached their abilities and underquoted for the gig that you are now having to cover and I am starting to see your points in a new light - if I replace 'not a VJ' with 'is a bad VJ' or 'is a VJ that is not ready for big gigs' in your posts then I agree with them a lot more.
P.S. - I'm actually finding this thread quite interesting now... [/B]

I happy to hear it.

Let me hone that into a point.

what if their just not VJs as the industry expect to find us.

I respect the (To use a term) Visulists for his ability.
The VJ is a visulist and more. there are clear expectations within the trade for anybody using the term.

When a Visulist confuses himself with what the trade Know as a VJ, hes not bad. hes actually totally lost and no idea why because as far as he knew he WAS A VJ.

The majority of beginners start as Visulists and move up to the reality of VJ,,,,others don't.

No biggy. but with out a basic clear distinction that VJs have real and practical responsabilitys beyond just creating loops , this problem will be the downfall of many a biginners reputatation.

Any newbiee who has same content and an intrest that can see hes only reashed the stage of visulist is welcome at my gigs and get a chance as a visulist to show his work.. At which time he can start ot see the rest that is the makings of the visulist becomming a VJ as recignised inside the trade.

Its is better that he be seen as a good visulist than a bad VJ.
And more important.. That he should know there is a difrence which then gives him a direction to evolve if he chooses.

G

[sleepytom]

once again your using your own narrow interpretations of "the industry" to define VJing as you see it.

your requirement for understanding large scale rigging and camera switching is as absurd to a free party vj as suggesting that you NEED to know about entertainments licensing and the criminal justice act to work in a big club

what i find most strange about this thread is that anyone gives a fuck who calls themselves a vj. Have you ever sat round backstage and listened to the big name DJs moaning on about how its not fair that someone who only mixes in there bedroom calls themselves a DJ? no? maybe that's cos they have enough confidence in there own work not to feel threatened by these newbees.

sure promoters will be pissed off if they book someone to do the kind of job you do and they turn up with a powerbook and an office projector announcing themselves as a vj but then next time you'll probably find that the promoter books you not them. this has nothing to do with wether they call themselves a vj or not- its simply based on wether they can do the job- if you have a proven track record and someone else doesn't then chances are you'll get the gig (unless you price yourself out of the market), if you can sort out the kit and rigging then you'll get booked before someone who wants the promoter to sort it all out. if you can understand what the promoter wants and adapt yourself to there needs then you'll get booked

Perhaps *****, you could write an article for vj central explaining what these special skills you need to work in your large scale gigs are or maybe explain how talkback works or the benefits of having onstage cameras or something - you seem to have alot of time on your hand s that you could spend writing constructive reviews or articles rather than quibbling over the term VJ - which last time i asked nobody seemed that keen on anyway.

vote on the term VJ - is it good or not?? :-
http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=711

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by sleepytom
once again your using your own narrow interpretations of "the industry" to define VJing as you see it.


After reading you post twice, I find youve said nothing that is more then a vague owerview of whats already in the thread tom.

Perhaps you find my view narrow.
Just as I find the current public impression Vague.

As for posting on whether I or anybody else LIKE's the term. Why bother? it the name the trade has us under and its to late to change that now, If you feel a pointless thread on Likeing the term will impove your lot you go for it.

I prefer to bring the subjet of the expected ability of a person trading as a VJ under scrutiny.

Would you prefer we ignore the issue and leave it so everbody who buys a powerbook with a composite out is by default a VJ?

Ive noted you usually make good points in your posts. Its dissapointing that your contrabution to this thread has no input on the topic of the debate. "What is a VJ" What I do is not relevent to that debate. What is or isnt a VJ seems to be a topic many members here are uncomfortable discussing openly.

What Makes a VJ tom?

before you wade in with purposeless polls and post that contains nothing of relevance to the debate.
have a point or two that can be replyed to or debated.

Your post had no attempt at a definitiion. I expected better.

G

debate structure.

Your point. and your perspective that backs it up.

Tantrum.

attack the personality and ignoe the issue.

Try again.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by sleepytom
your requirement for understanding large scale rigging and camera switching is as absurd to a free party vj as suggesting that you NEED to know about entertainments licensing and the criminal justice act to work in a big club

what i find most strange about this thread is that anyone gives a fuck who calls themselves a vj[/url]

BTW Tom
Free party VJs? If by that you mean anybody that wants to play for free at quasi legal partys.... they probably need to know more about laws and safety than most.. if only to defend them selves if busted. As for the suburban party Vj, his idea of a VJ is self invented just like the bedroom DJ and is exactly why the proffesion is undermined by a limited outlook. Hence the basis for this thread to Define a working definition.

As for this last out burst of not understanding Why anybody gives a fuck.... Your lack of understanding is your own issue. Although I commend your public admission of your lack of understanding.

To help you out with that.
a VJ needs to have a level of ability to live up to the expectations of those who book us.
The level of that ability needs defined and promoted before the term VJ gets split in trade jargon in the way DJs became split between DJs and deck monkeys.
Funny thing is that deck monkeys still think there Djs but the trede see them diffrently and it hinders their ability to secure work.

Perhaps your lack of understanding comes from not having encountered these issues. Anyways. there out there and relevent.

I'll look forward to your inteligent reply then shall I?

G

[sleepytom]

they probably need to know more about laws and safety than most.. exactly but the laws they need to know are totaly diffrent to the laws needed for large scale concert work

As for this last out burst of not understanding Why anybody gives a fuck.... Your lack of understanding is your own issue. Although I commend your public admission of your lack of understanding.

To help you out with that. a VJ needs to have a level of ability to live up to the expectations of those who book us.
The level of that ability needs defined and promoted before the term VJ gets split in trade jargon in the way DJs became split between DJs and deck monkeys.
Funny thing is that deck monkeys still think there Djs but the trede see them diffrently and it hinders their ability to secure work.


"those who book us" - theres the problem - the people who book you are very very diffrent to the people who book me. In some places a promoter will be dissapointed by someone who turns up with a small setup and brilliantly creative / artistic content where as in other areas the promoter will be dissapointed by someone who turns up with a truck full of gear but no creativity. The answer comes in knowing your own skills and trying to sell them to people who'll appreciate them.

there is no need at all for you to try to define who or what is a VJ this will be done by the promoters - it would seem that some of the promoters you work for would exclude many of the people on this list form being VJs However you must admit that some of those people you would like to exclude are working as vjs and getting plenty of gigs from a diffrent type of promoter who is more intrested in the artistic content on the screens than in the number of boxes that you bring.

Why do you feel its so important to define this term?

anyone can call themself a vj if they wish (in the same way anyone can call themself a DJ or musican) good vjs will be selected in the same way as good musicans - by people seeing them work and deciding if they like it

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by sleepytom
someone who turns up with a truck full of gear but no creativity. The answer comes in knowing your own skills and trying to sell them to people who'll appreciate them.


interesting.
Yet by the simple basic principles of commerce the Vj who has aquirred the truck full of gear must have creativity/sucess and marketing skill or wouldnt be likely to be in a position to be able to afford or justify his equipment.

That argumet would otherwise mean that a year from now as the sucessful members add to their equipment base that they cease to be creative. Which is ludicrous

perhaps you may step back and look at that from the other side of the coin.. Its the only the reliable sucessful and creative Vj that Can justify and afford the professional spec equipment he requires.

a paralell'
The student band that claim to be creative.. Besides the fact that the market dictates that 99% are full of wind and piss about their talent and content, they have limited equimpnet, and worse, rather than stive to understand enough to hire in the best they could manage, they invariably make do with junk and patched up methods that are ofen more difficult and costly long term than buying what they need form the beginning.
On the other hand Guns n Roses have a huge professional rig because of the creativity that makes it nessasary.

Both can be termed "A Band"

the music industry is around long enough to know the diffrence and wouldnt book "Jimmiy and the wannabies" by accident for a Guns n Roses slot
However the Vj industry is young and unaware that its facing the new " today I'll be a VJ" fashion statment.

That kind of VJ bollox is doing neither himself or the industry any favors.

The reality is, like the diffrence between a programmer and a script kiddy.
When I see post from a newbiee claiming a right be called a VJ.. my reaction is.. your a newbiee.. and thats cool, we all where once. How can I help
when the attitude returned is, FUCK YOU what would you know? I'm VJ, I'm an artist, I'm creative. yadda yadda.
I cant help but think hes nothing more than a dickhead with an ego thats closed his eyes to learning more, and may never get far enough to see why. Thing move so fast that theres always more to learn. Only a newbiee could beleive he knows everything already. that only proves that hes an idiot and not safe to be let loose in the industry. And there out there screwing it up everyday

This industry is young and needs Vjs/ potential VJs/ newbiee VJs/ beginner VJs/ neich market VJs. What it needs least is instant VJs with an attutude and no clue or interest in the trade past being told how wonederfull they are for being clever with office toys. those guys are holding the expansion of the trade back with the disasters they create as the discover it the hard way.

It would be much easier if they accepted that they are beginners not VJs yet and put the bloody work in that it take to be able to handle the game.

or is the industry to be trained to believe that Vjs are all beginners and idiots who are not to be trusted to fulfill their role?
Will the status of VJ ever be equal yadda yadda.. It should be, its a higher responsabiliy 9 time outta 10, hes the bridge the techincal with the esoteric.

Like an ice berg what is seen is only the tip.
but the current trend is to wish only to be equal to the Dj.. in that limited ideal the Visual is always gonna be secondary. ppl dont dance to pretty pictures. The key to the professional sucess is based respect drawn from the bulk of knowhow under the tip.
yet many newbis drawn from the public can see noting more than the tip.. in fact there are like bedroom DJs members the public playing lets pretend. however the problem is there is enough of them now to be able to support eachothers bullshit and convince themselves that their real.
Its no supprise that the sucessfull members here have discoverd theres more to it than what required to get a gig in some fancy pub with a dancefloor.. thats the land of the instant DJ, why not instant VJs too.

The rampent attitude of sour grapes is part of the issue in the distinction of a VJ.. This thread has shown a definite leaning towards using basic office equipment = VJ and if a VJ buys more of the dedicated to be more effective hes labled AV hire and not a VJ. Take this to the bank.. If you belive a VJ dont need dedicated tools, your not gonna get far..To persue that to its rediculious conclusion, A VJ would be then drfined by his lack of equipment/commercial/promotional success and technical understanding

BY all means a Vj can play with office equipment as a starting point
But that is no grounds to dismiss the professional equipment out there dedicated to the purpose, as being "Not needed" or "Its AV but not needed by VJs", That attitude puts him straight into a catagory of worst kind of idiot wannabie.

Computers and dedicated have their palce and have abilitys and softs that are on occasions essential.

But A laptop and an app isnt a VJ by default. perhaps its easier to say knowing why, puts a newbiee on his way to understanding the trade and the role of a VJ.

G

The trade needs Videots not idiots

[BrainStove]

Well *****, you are getting now tiresome and tedious with your position, it is clearly mumble-jumble bullshit argue about titles.
SleepyTom just did the effort to clear you out the reliability about titles, but you "one ear input one ear output" bypassing your "Head CPU".
You must know that Titles are WORDS, just W_O_R_D_S and worthless in real life situations.

Just look at this: suppose I?m calling myself "Plastic Surgeon" (VJ <but I?m just a Visualist>) and you are the "Patient" (Promoter) and you are coming to me asking for some nice retouch to your "Pretty Face" (Party/Event) and at the end you?ll finish looking like the Notredam humpbacked guy... Who is the culprit?... well, nobody but you eating too much BrontoShit trusting in titles instead of doing your homework and assuring the guy is exactly what you need, i.e asking the guy for real work samples, real references and maybe most important; real mouth to mouth recommendations from other satisfaced customers/promoters who knows the guy?s work.

Are you gonna cry around whineing; you poor bastard with a disfigured face, you got deceived by a guy with a "Plastic Surgeon" title printed on his business card?... Can you see the thing now?
It doesn?t matter you have a 100 pages full of people calling themselves VJs on the Yellow pages directory, you MUST to assure who is the one you need and able to do the best work at all.

This debate is not gonna change nothing, anyone with at least 3" of forefront and subtle common sense wont pay a damn f**k about titles, you must to prove and show you are the one they are looking for despite of what your business card or your Illustrator/Freehand made diploma says.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by BrainStove
Well *****, you are getting now tiresome and tedious with your position

DUUU..

Check out the thread title.

NOTE the word DEBATE.

Perhaps your english is lacking in the meaning of debate.


A vs B

A doesnt get to say Bs point is tiresome in a debate. Perhaps the tiresome part is the the points Im making are to difficult for to to dissmiss, Perhaps its tiresome that you have been bested by logic and reason.

its up to A to prove B wrong. yor post Dosnt even attempt it.

so what Im I to take out of that?

You cant Debate or you dont have a return argument?
perhaps you prefer sudo Insults to structured debating.

Its clear that you have no further structured reasoning on the topic and have decided to change you attack to being made up of insults to hide your defeat.

What is "tiresome" is shitty of topic posts like the above.

What your refering to as my Tiresome View IS THE thread TOPIC so DEBATE it or stay outta the thread.

And that goes for anybody else thats a bit dim.

I started a Debate, Join it as a debate with logic or post asshole comments and have then ripped apart

As for the rest of the crap in your post..wanna be VJs are out there lying to prompters.. conning them into giving them work that they cant handle.. and the problem is there too fucking stupid to know in advance that the work is more than they can do. There to fucking stupid to know theat theres more too it and there too fucking stupid to see sense in logic.

VJing is a trade. Every trade needs a discription of what it dos.
The discription that WANNABIEEs are trying to create for it is as limited as as a childs idea of playing at being a train driver.

G

ps I got a pm from Infopocilips last night saying . "NICE POST" and that the points were well laid out and clearly inarguable..

The strange thing is . when one side of a debate is inarguable the otherside Always become pertulant and huffy an insulting a pathetic and childish reaction. particularly when the attack then turns to accusing the person with the srtonger argument of being nasty and insulting in return.

To retun the insult in bLunt terms.

Unless to have a constructive argument against a point in a debate... Shut the fuck up.

Btw (thank you tom for a well reasoned debate in your last post)

[BrainStove]

Originally posted by *****
As for the rest of the crap in your post..wanna be VJs are out there lying to prompters.. conning them into giving them work that they cant handle.. and the problem is there too fucking stupid to know in advance that the work is more than they can do. There to fucking stupid to know theat theres more too it and there too fucking stupid to see sense in logic.

That is exactly what I wanted to point out in my post, therefore this thread maybe is more relevant on some Promoters/ClubOwners Forum somewhere, just to educate those "Fucking Stupids" as you said, taking care of their "Pretty Faces" a little bit more from fake "Plastic Surgeons" out there.
*Note: I?m guessing you are refering to the promoters as the fucking stupids ones.

The W_O_R_D "Tiresome"... Hehehe :jump:

Just an experiment, I like the experiments ?You know?... indeed there is nothing Tiresome or Tedious in debates (This one or any other), the only tiresome & tedious thing here is your insistence to forcefully coin the term VJ only as a synonym of What/Where/How you are doing, ignoring the obvious fact you are wasting gunpowder in vultures aiming your educational gun shots on the wrong guys.
Maybe your educational effort could be more successful applied to the victims (Promoters) and not to the victimaries (Fake VJs <according your viewpoint>)

Experiment??? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just wanted to pinch you out a little bit to confirm myself your extraordinary selection capability to anchor your posts in just tiny places of the other people posts and ignoring the rest of them. ;)

Well getting serious now... The title VJ is not any title you can get from college with well definable and delineated rules to be a VJ, but even so it could be similar to medical doctors. Here by example when you graduate in Medicine you get just the Surgeon status, after that you can specialize as Intern, Cardiologist, Pediatrician, Ginecologist, Obstetrician, Proctologist, Plastic Surgeon, etc., as you can see all of them are Medical Doctors and of course some will be good and some really bad ones even with their legal title in their hands.
So imagine also the other millions of Fake Medical Doctors (in any specialty) out there usurping the real ones, are you gonna educate these guys or the Patients?
Clear enough now?

As for VJing is a trade... yeah bootblack too, but it is not nothing to do with unofficial "titles" man, as I said before Titles are just WORDS even the official college ones are W_O_R_D_S, in the real life you are dealing with Human Beings not titles and if somebody got screwed by some fancy TITLES HOLDER out there when they are looking for specific real services they need... well they deserve that BIG BOLT just there by forget the human part of the equation and maybe I?ll be there too peeing on their stupidity hoping they learn the lesson.

Don?t get my posts personal, you know I?d never do that with anyone here, but every debate goals are to reach some consciousness in some time, other way, why the effort?

To me the Tom?s posts were pretty clear from the 1st one throwing new light to decrease your obstinacy about titles, but no, just because your amazing selective capability I mentioned before and I think MoRpH also did some posts back, hence my experimental previous post to enjoy myself with your predictable behaviour. :p :D

Peace man and go on!!!

[KillingFrenzy]

Dammit, somebody defined what I do?
Guess it must be time to move on to something else.

I think the best part of what I do is getting to fuck shit up and not follow a definition.

Throwing a clever definition behind "VJ" seems to bring it one step closer to "Urban Dance Visual Technician". Next step, I'll be paying union dues.

[Jorjo]

The weekend (48 hours without sleep. over exposure to Premadonas and idiots included) is finally over. VJs? embarresingly the alledged VJ guy covering the scooter tent faded to colourbars (not familiary with a mixer) at one point. The Guys covering the main arena sat backsatage on a sofa the bought with them and played of softs/mixer/and live cam from backstage, and single handedly managed the most boring set of play loop transition loop vjing boardom this year (unless the rumors of Kreils nosedive at vectors are true)

VJs hu. I made a point of taking a camcorder round the backstsge and on to the scooter stage for clips and pics for the newbiees to see the industry etc.

In answer to Brianstove claming i have a narrow view.
Yeah I do. 8000 ppl watching my work, again.
Ego? no.. if it was ego I wouldnt have been running about sorting three of the other Vjs out for equipment and pro content when they discoverd that what looks cool for 2 hrs in a pub wont cover 13 hours at a major rave.

Not to mention that on so called pro showed up his entire set made up of the same tired cast offs as linked and swaped regularly on this board.

Then just for kicks Leo and Bushwackers VJ (justin) was so encredably avarage that he had too ask three seperate questions on how I was getting a Mx50 to do "SO Much" and was mine Modded or something (red> Std DSPAINT and the wacky wipes and Mem progs).
Another of these guys turned up with a MX50 that had all the sliders removed becasue "they mess things up on him"

Btw leo N bushwacker premadonaded out of playing (not that they where missed ) the real reason was obvious, with Testo, vandyke, Tong and scooter on in the next tents they where never gonna cut it. So the three Beta players they needed to launch there laptop where a waste of effort

Whats any of this got to do with being a VJ?

1 to be there ya had to have a rep for being able to come in and make it happen, Ie you had to have a Van full of equipment to be able to work round the layouts that where still changing on the final rigs.. Stage companys having to work with what they got = sound crews working round that, Riggers working with the only points available and then the VJs setting up through it where possable. and at max impact. And then do the gig.

Wanna be a VJ? Ok how? since you all say that That end is according to the board "AV hire".. Why would any company go to all the gig hassles only to hand it over to some kid with a lappy?

promoters book VJs. if the VJ needs to book in AV hire, the Hire company would walk out on a gig on that scale. NO way could you pay a company to just set up. Its a world of its own, Heven/hell Riggers lampys noiseboys stage crews all working through eachother and if you dont know whos who and they dont know where or how you fit in, your canclled and hard luck.

So if anyboy here wants to work at that level Your art wont get you there. its the tech shit and the ability to make it happen that gets you to the stage. then and only then does the content come into play. I say the stuff the 2 Imported VJs was doing was average, (and it was very average)

So to be fair It would seem the standards In Ireland are higher than most places.
If I could have had a pure visulist available at the weekend I would have authorised him to upstream the VJ in one of the tents as that VJs content and style didnt suit but at least he knew that and came to me with his problem . (BTW Dan,, You would have got that chance).
Ok so Bottom LINE. I Personally will sort out VJs for each arena next year (if its gos for a 6th year). Each Tent will Have a VJ and an upstream Visulist. The selection process will include ppl from this board if they are suitable.

This gig Is VJ ing in the real world. Not shite talk or any place for wannabie VJs.. If you a only a Visulist, Dont pretend to be a VJ.. We needed good extra Visulists at the weekend too. Yet all that was avalable was More dickheads that thought they could play downloaded loops and clips.
( info... The back door site i gave ya to look at,, one guy had the whole thing on hard drive plus levs rebelle/amega loop. so is prolly a member( ps he was warned by me personally that if he played it that hed be paying lev for it) he didnt play it)

from what I can determine the requiremnt to be both a quality VJ and Visulist seems to be limited to only a few places globally.

This thread has a purpose. but in addition let me post a basic synopsis.
I respect VJs who have the tools the ability and the experience to work at pro levels. And although content isnt that improtant in it self ,,its taken for granted that content be at expected standards for the job. Yet again I have had to resque a so called pro who turns out to be a wannabee wanker playing the same tired download loops (including the dancin baby) and had to give them content.

so VJ = ability to mix all sources live, set a show up when others are falling to peices, and still play and origonal quality set

Visulist = ability to play a quality set.

If I put a poor Vj with a good Visulist I get a result.
Meanwhile.. ALL I WANNA SEE IS PROGRESS AND A FEW QUALITY VJS BECOMING AVAILABLE cause theres clearly a shortage of ppl that are taking this job seriously.

Note
James.. if I arange a dublin gig to tie in with this gig for next year you can consider yourself booked.

RED.. in on my crew (btw all stage rigging and 3 tents lighting / stage production was acrettited to ATP :) ie Andy Thompson Productions by hes happy to let your guys take the credit since your a collective and hes a Mate).

Morph.. distance = problem but hopefully

DAN. duu.. where where ya ?

And as for the rest of ya? How would I know? since most don't post and the majority of the rest dont consider this VJs work

Oh.. "anyone/Nigel " I mentioned you to Mathew and neither he nor leo knew you or had ever heard of vectors. (how come ya told me ya knew them)?

And Rova,, Just for shear bloody mindedness, I made a point of nipping over to the scooter tent and hooking in a laptop withone of your winamp plugins upstream to the VJ and Had him play it over through and during the live set as a camera bed. So you can now offically say your shit has been used for Scooter and works effectively as an active live bed.

casultys.. a member of one of the other crews chopped his thumb off from the knuckle (and the fucking about to find the bit and get him to the hospital)
and one crew Blew the bajasus out of a 64 Barco.

8000 happy clubbers and Only one fight (issuing of black eye off site and about a Taxi as far as I heard)

:) oh yeah,, some fuckwit strolled off with bushwackers Mackie 16/4 desk, but was discovered with it up his coat at the main gates. security retreived it and explined the error of his ways. (we suspect he should turn up on the Brighton coastline anyday now)

G

BTW the guys thumb couldnt be saved, so when the hospital where done patching him up. he came back and carried on working. ( thats considered normal for backstage ppl)

[Jorjo]

BTW Id put the txt Rovasters Swirly shit in.
The vj just caught the edge of it in an overlay

A dunno if the log will be avalable but if so,, there should be a live sequence off scooter with Rovasters swirlly shit readable in the shot :)


:) :)

BTW rova...

With the plugin you suggested, I can honestly say that on its own it could have replaced the two imported VJs,, its exellent.

Too be brutally honest, it was better than 90% of the guys that call themselves VJs while trigigering loops can do.

I guess a lot of Guys will be offended (who cares) but when mixing live properly, there just isnt enough time to mess about sorting out clips while maintaining a fluid mix. Having your stuff running to allow the 10 - 20 seconds hands off desk needed for loading fresh content gave me the kinda edge that Ive been hunting for.. And Yeah I agree that Kreil aint all that and your plugin can do better. But hes a poor example of A VJ..

I am sending you a tape of your stuff used as a VJ feed and worked over at a pro event so you can judge better what the markets like.
You may need to do to versions of the plugin, One as a VJ bed and the other as a Visulist replacement as a stand alone for pub/clubs.

The sound reactive was impressive. ok not music or beatreactive. but still... damn close.. the main problem with it is that there are idiots who spend all night trying to achieve that basic bed effect and quality as a main show. you may find it becomes unpopular because of it.

[MoRpH]

***** hoping to be in the UK/Europe by July next year as part of a 1 year round the world trip so I should be well up for it, and not too far away mate :)

BTW its Layo & Bushwacka.... not Leo :D

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH
***** hoping to be in the UK/Europe by July next year as part of a 1 year round the world trip so I should be well up for it, and not too far away mate :)

BTW its Layo & Bushwacka.... not Leo :D

Cheers for the heads up morph, It was introduced stageside in a live 30k environment.
Layo being the friendly one..
Bushwacka on the oterhand generated a play on words from everybody that met him.. and was a great reminer to everyone that writeing you own publicity is one thing,, but believing it is entirly another..

A snippet of the situ was,, after he'd decided to huff that the gig didnt center on him, He comes over and insists that I radio though to have a the bently sent round to take him and the crew 500 yards to the VIP lounges ( all already in private areas )

The Facial expression !!! when , Take it up with production buddy, unlike some ppl, Im mid gig so if ya aint playen, get off the stage,

( Fuck do hate prema donnas under my feet mid gig)

hehe it dint help that meanwhile some VIP tagged tawt had strolled of with the mixer that had been sat behind the Marquee :)



Anyways.. James and I have a seed of an Idea that should make the rest easier for when Ya hit europe..
If this goes a 6th year.. It id be nice ta have ya on board.

G

[MoRpH]

Great mate I look forward to it... PM me some details of this IDEA and I might be able to throw some more ideas into the pot :)

[Anyone]

Originally posted by *****

Oh.. "anyone/Nigel " I mentioned you to Mathew and neither he nor leo knew you or had ever heard of vectors. (how come ya told me ya knew them)?

OK for the record, I'm not posting on this thread.
But for the sake of answering your little question:

Layo is the brother of AKA bar's manager,
and personal friend of my agent...

Happy?
NE1 / oli

PS who's Nigel ?

[LEVLHED]

OK, well since Anyone "didn't" post, I guess I "can't" too....

*****, I appreciate you're looking out for me, but when I post a loop here, I do it knowing full well that its going to get DL'd and probably end up in someone's mix somewhere...I kinda like that!

[Anyone]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
OK, well since Anyone "didn't" post, I guess I "can't" too....



;)

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
*****, I appreciate you're looking out for me, but when I post a loop here, I do it knowing full well that its going to get DL'd and probably end up in someone's mix somewhere...I kinda like that!

HU?
You may well like it, but the gig spec was for origional content.

It may not be obvious to those working in areas where there arnt many VJs But at an event with so many international acts and 5 Vj arenas. NO Downloaded content is acceptable.

firstly it looks crap if a clubber can nudge his mate n say " look theres that clip I downloaded last night" and secondly it looks crap when 5 marquees are playing the same shyte cause they figured thed take the easy route and download loops.

but more importantly if they needed a clip of such basic content to paid out their set, they clearly need replaced with a visulist.

THE CRUNCH.

I wasnt looking out for you at all. Legally they had no copyright approval for your clip and where passing it off as their own.
If it was included in any docco fottage of the event the entire docco could be fucked over copyright violations. Since I knew that clip was ripped from the net, they had two choices. buy it and legaly own it or leave it out.... I couldnt give a toss if they rip your entire set lev.

Perhaps this forum had best deal with a few legal details before diving into playing at being VJs.

Any footage ripped from movies = Multi milion doller production houses with legal tems that can strip you of every penny you ever had, if you steal there shit and they get pissed about it.

A working VJ cannot be a fucking theif. Cop on ffs.. If exhale is not allowing serial swapping on this board, do you honestly think film makers would ignore any of their footage discovered in a gig docco? or some little geek whos dads a lawyer sees his work used on a TV docco and follows it up?

What the fuck is with this mickymouse VJ mentality? If theres any doubt over the ownership of any footage, ya dont play it. If theres any hint of doubt over a VJ useing dodgy footage, he don't get booked again.

FFs people if thats not obviouse to ya YER NEVER GONNA BE A VJ.

Suddenly im realising that the AVIT gig with film festival ppl gonna be at it (ppl who protect film makers rights) prolly hasnt made this a spec for the VJs intending to play. What happens If someonre plays a copyright clip that they recognise? perhaps they will let it pass. perhaps a lot of copyright stuff is recignised and they have to pull out to protect their reputation?
Perhaps you find that each of the VJs are including the same tired downloaded shyte and much of the content is repeated.

SORT YER HEADS OUT.
The public play choons and videos at will. thats all they see of the entertainment industry. If Joe public suddenly calls himself a VJ and decides to swim with the sharks and legal Shyte that makes up the 80% of the entertainment industry that the public dont see. Hes a danger to an event.

Enough.

I'm now Fucked off with ppl claiming to be VJ and having attatudes.. when so many here lack. Basic awareness of what a VJ is in reality. FFs how can you BE A VJ if you dont know content needs to be legitimised before use?

Heres a fact

This board needs to quit Playing at VJs. There are a few Pros in here. but as for the rest. Get you head round VJing is a responsable trade that has serious legal responsabilitys and VJing is no place for kiddies or copyright thieves.


Note to X. It would do no harm to put a disclaimer up along with the serial nos thread stating that the board dos not condone the use of copyright or copyright pending material by any member.

levs clip may well have be downloaded from within this site, and although his stand point is to waver the copyright on it, he could just as easily have been demanding compensation for the use of his clip at a major event.

G

[eXhale]

Originally posted by *****
Note to X. It would do no harm to put a disclaimer up along with the serial nos thread stating that the board dos not condone the use of copyright or copyright pending material by any member.well as far as i know (?), you're the one of the few VJ here who is seriously offended by the idea of using copyrighted materials (although the general consensus here has always been that serious "professional" people should use their own footage only).

as it has often been pointed out, taking existing material and mixing it in a new way is a very creative process, which has been used long before VJing exists. but we are not going to start talking about this HUGE subject on this 16-page-long thread so do a new thread if you want, copyrights are an interesting and important topic.

levs clip may well have be downloaded from within this site, and although his stand point is to waver the copyright on it, he could just as easily have been demanding compensation for the use of his clip at a major event.this community is based on the idea(l) of giving and sharing, i'm not going to restrict the sharing of loops between members, even though people like LEV say they don't mind. this is completely ridiculous you even suggest that they should be forbidden from sharing their work. sharing it not illegal yet. consider yourself ignored.

[Rovastar]

You lot cannot keep away can you.:)

*****,

Glad it worked and got you out of a hole. MilkDrop is graphically not the best out there but there is enough variety so that people do not get that bored quickly.

The really detailed stuff only has a few scenes (only up to 40 compared to 2,500 odd for MilkDrop) and require more of a 'manual' turnover (stop it restart separate program/plug-in) for being used in a live set.

Maybe next time we could do it all properly.:);)

I do hope you did think it was good and not saying it to 'big me up' on the forum here.

It is a worrying state of affairs when the material on autoplay now (compared to what it will be like in a few years time) can replace wannabe VJ types. Maybe there are too many shit VJ?s out there ? I just expected the quality to be better. :( :(

: ) You are at it again aren?t you *****. Maybe that need to be in a new thread. ?Not using original content are you a VJ with about the copyright thread?. Maybes x etc could move it to tidiness sake.

It is a confusing state of affairs think about DJ?s how many DJ?s have the authorisation to play al there records. The ?public performance? thing on the copyright of all music I read that as by the law you should have express (often written) permission to play these in clubs. I bet 99.9% of DJ?s that ALL there material has not been cleared for this.

Anyways more later.

[elbows]

Im with eXhale on this one - its up to the copyright holders etc to police that issue, and copyleft has far more to do with the spirit of this community than copyright.

Im not trying to say it is an issue VJ's can ignore, but anyway yeah I think a new thread for this one should we wish to open this new can of worms :D

[Anyone]

*****,

sometimes, I could almost agree with you on some points...
but your arguments are so inflated,
it's like a caricature.

there are a lot of grey areas in the world of VJs and VJing
very few things are either black or white.

do me a favor,
just for starters

try saying "I dont like it" instead of "it's shit" once in a while

You might make more friends :nod:

NE1

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Rovastar

It is a worrying state of affairs when the material on autoplay now (compared to what it will be like in a few years time) can replace wannabe VJ types. Maybe there are too many shit VJ?s out there ? I just expected the quality to be better. :( :(

. I bet 99.9% of DJ?s that ALL there material has not been cleared for this.

Anyways more later.

Yup Rova It worrying that the board owner has a site thats ignoring the basic legals.

Djs play purchased and pre release material covered by the PRS licence for a venue in the UK. there are equivelents in most countrys.
Originally posted by Rovastar
. Maybe there are too many shit VJ?s out there
Anyways more later.

Dont stop with just "out there" Rova

Try looking at it as there are to many out there doing something that isnt Vjing but they want it to be.

Grow up X,, and show some responsabilility.
So by your thinking then all software should become public domain too?

And before ya try twisting what I said. At no time did I say lev shouldent share his work. What I said was that Share work should have a Copyright authorisation with it. Levs didnt.

Dont for a secong think that a company like the one that put on the planetlove gig give a fuck what you think. they care only about not ending up in a court battle.
And as for the considser yourself ignored attitude. Do what ya like. the diffrence being you own a board and I work as a VJ. one off us knows what VJings about and the other is playing at it.

If you wanna keep on filling newbiess heads full a shit on here thats your choice. but since some of them wanna be playing the same gigs i am, I reckon It better thay hear the reality from me instead of some urban myth idea of what its about.

On topic. What is a VJ..
A VJ is a professional occupation and not some figment of a web boards collective imagination.
And when the boards owner comes off with crap like "it should be public domain" Yeeeesh.. What chance Has the newbie that comes here to find out the How too?
A basic disclaimer could save you hassles later, But hey,,, since the working VJs lurking in the background can rip at will and the majority of members will never see it,, what the hell. It not like a board that wants visulisers to be VJs is gonna make a diffrence.

ooops see now theres a thought.. the smat guys are looking at a place at next years event while the ones telling me im all wrong are still wondering how to get that kinda break.... Du

Funny how its Rova that had his stuff played with scooter while others are wondering how to get work or exposure.

so many on this board are proving to be unemployable for a pro gig and its halarious how tey wanna cry about it and still refuse to go the only possible route. Do the DAMN JOB there booked for.

Morph> The idea is a international variation on battle of the VJs (in previous post), the flights & hotel funding is already in place at this end and the date is flexable, the only obstical was finding enough additional bookings for the fly in guests. However If place UK Planetlove and Dublin back to back for a friday/Sat the problem is solved.

[elbows]

Id still rather eat out of dustbins and play gigs to wino's than end up with an attitude like that though :rolleyes:

[Anyone]

*****, my mom says you're not a VJ...

[eXhale]

Originally posted by *****
Grow up X,, and show some responsabilility.
So by your thinking then all software should become public domain too?
what would be wrong with this? the open-source community has showed it was totally possible. without windows, there would be more contributors and linux would be better than anything ever made. what more than a living proof do you need?

And as for the considser yourself ignored attitude. Do what ya like. the diffrence being you own a board and I work as a VJ. one off us knows what VJings about and the other is playing at it.
stop with this, i AM a VJ despite what YOUR definition of the word is. i may be not as experienced as others but it doesn't mean i'm not allowed to say what i think or that my opinion doesn't matter. you're pissing me off with this elitist attitude, stop putting down newbies all the time! what's the point in reminding us on ALL your posts that you are doing it full-time? feed your ego? the value of an argument should be based on its own value, not on the number of years the person has been VJing.

If you wanna keep on filling newbiess heads full a shit on here thats your choice. but since some of them wanna be playing the same gigs i am, I reckon It better thay hear the reality from me instead of some urban myth idea of what its about.
i've always been promoting the use of your own (non-copyrighted) footage, because even on a sharing/copyleft spirit, the more producers the better. i also see "VJs" more as musicians than as DJs so of course having your own footages matters. so i don't consider my attitude as irresponsible. i don't say that people shouldn't respect the law. however most people here will never play gigs of your scale and on small scale it's different. you can help raising this awareness of copyright issues by writing on this forum though.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by eXhale

what would be wrong with this? the open-source community has showed it was totally possible. without windows, there would be more contributors and linux would be better than anything ever made. what more than a living proof do you need?


More shyte. X cop on.. the world you where born into allready had borders and wars and security, the net was an is an off shoot of military and government funding regardless of its humble beginnings in a back street garage.
the technolgy behind the chip come for the space program. or did you think perhaps a few guys knocked it up in a locker room one lunch break.
Linux is a perfect example of failure by lack of marketing. windows was the universaly marketed media that suceeded, whats with your fucked up idea that sucess is bad?


Originally posted by eXhale


stop with this crap, i AM a VJ despite what YOUR definition of the word is. i may be not as experienced as others but it doesn't mean i'm not allowed to say what i think or that my opinion doesn't matter. you're pissing me off with this elitist attitude, stop putting down newbies all the time! what's the point in reminding us on ALL your posts that you are doing it full-time? feed your ego? the value of an argument should be based on its own value, not on the number of years the person has been VJing.


A few paid gigs and hes qualified to host a Forum LMAO
A little knowlage is a dangerous thing X.Why not shut up and learn what your baord is about from those who actually do more than a few paid gigs.

Who are you accusing of putting down newbiees? Newbiee VJs are needed not instant cluless morons that think they know the job because they have a laptop and a app.. Im only hanging out in here to rescue the genuine guys that wanna VJ from the bullshit moronic attitude that its ok to know fuck all but still call yourself a VJ

WHY do I bother? BECAUSE The industry Needs More VJs and I personally cant find them among the posers you are creating


Originally posted by eXhale


most people here will never play gigs of your scale and on small scale it's different. you can help raising this awareness of copyright issues by writing on this forum though.

Du.. on a small scale stealling hardly matters.. Asshole comment.
it matters if someone gets fucked over it. Let it be their own risk they dont need a board telling them its OK. the risk may be low but it still valid. and on a pro gig its unacceptable. Not some eejit saying but why me ,, everyone else does it.

Originally posted by eXhale


most people here will never play gigs of your scale
MOST PPL HERE WONT WHAT? Why not? theres no reason why not! If they ever got a chance to know what the Fuck a VJ is. Theres a market place out there screaming out for VJs, Defined by the requirments of the job.. even a fresh faced newbiee could working the major event if hes prepaired to live up to the industry expectation.. wich incidently seem to be a damn sight higher than yours or the attitude your promotes on the board. (and thats pissing me off)

Play the game as you find it or fail through idealistic fluff.
Your opinions on the industry being out to rob the artist and yadda yuadda is bollox. the industry is there play the game or be a looser. everybody I know and respect in the bussiness has one thing in common.. they have all been prepaired to work their damn asses off to get ahead and succeed in an industry full of lazy wankers who want it all done for them.

Lets bring it closer to home.. Let see you post the source code for all your work on the site.. lets see you give it away for free in the socialist attitude you promote.

Why should anybody else be ecpected to give away their intelectual property?

Wanna be a VJ? then BE aVJ and quit talking shyte about what it should be,,, perhaps the main problem is that it to damn tough for some so they bluff it.

fact... I got event places open for VJs. Are you fitting the description or not? CAN YOU DO THE JOB ?
If noT why bother PRETENDING to be a vj?

And more to the point WHO the Fuck are you to decide that many of the members wont make it? I am doing all I can to tell them the reality and how while all you have to offer is idealist attitudes and show no faith in them by saying they will never make it.

Every damn one of the members could make it if they get a chance to see what it is that they need to do to be booked.

Every thing Ive achieved was straightforward. hard graft that any member could do. if oply they wernt being bombarded with ego soothing shyte thats of no fuckin use to them. and no fuckin use to an industry thats filled with wannabiees and few actual VJs

But OH no X cant see that.. *****s got a bad attitude.. *****s only got a bad attatude about listining to shyte from ppl that have damn all first hand experience about an industry there busting there balls to get into.
You opened the board.. big upps. but wasting it talking shyte while it could be doing sooo much to get the newbiees up and moving in THE RIGHT DIRECTION to hook into the existing work is a total wasted oppertunity

Any VJ thats got the balls to get over the arty shyte and get his hands dirty and do a bit of solid work can make it.. more to the point I have arleady said Ill meet them half way and do what I can to get them hooked up with pro work.. Instead ALL I GET IS SAD LOOSERS crying abot attitude and how that not VJ or its to much like work.

HOW THE FUCK COME? I when need to book additional VJs in a board with 700 members I find maybe TEN that I know could do alredy do the job? what is in the way of the rest? just Bullshit holding them back X and your promoting it

Some have already contacted me for a leg up and those are the new guys with the sense to take up a free offer.

get of my case X.

G

[elbows]

You have NO concept of what a COMMUNITY is whatsoever.

The qualification of forum host is of someone who takes the time to setup a forum. Simple enough for you?

Anyway you are the twat who admits to me in the chatroom that you deliberately post like this because you think for some bizarre reason pissing people off will help them learn!

You are also a liar and a hypocrite because you told me stuff in the chat which goes against what you have said here = eg you use the word art when describing yourself in real life lol and yet you attack others for mentioning it as an art.

You really thrive off this negative energy hey? Well you cant have any more of mine, as far as Im concerned you are just a troll with emotional defects, seeya later.

[LEVLHED]

Yeah, *****...why don't YOU get off OUR case?

like it or not, everyone who finds themselves at vjforums/vjcentral is considering themself a VJ...you can make value judgments about this all day, thats you're perogitive...but you'll never convince us that you're definition of VJ is the "right" one....Its like ONE person gave you some guff in some long forgotten thread, and you've turned it into a CRUSADE...you keep making sweeping generalizations about the majority of members here...you won't concede to valid points made against your (ultimately worthless) arguement....and as for the supposed "lurking pros who know what I'm talking about"? Until one speaks up here, its safe to assume thats bullshit. Come to think of it, didn't SecretSauce pretty much argue against everything you've been babbling about? Oh yeah, I forgot about your selective attention to detail...you actually thought he was SUPPORTING your arguement!

you are just barely worth putting up with because of the useful knowledge that your experience has provided you...but just barely.

[Anyone]

basically, respect is a two way street so learn how to drive

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
Yeah, *****...why don't YOU get off OUR case?

you are just barely worth putting up with because of the useful knowledge that your experience has provided you...but just barely.
Rotflmao.

Yeah right... And that usefull Info comes from where?

VJing.. It aint my argument. its amazing that you guys havent found it out for yourselves. Its all common knowlage among VJs so how come its Valuable here?

Selective.. hu.. the lat line of the newpaper atricle about there being more too it, stood out a mile.

they say the person who laughs last laughs loudest..
We shall see :p

[eXhale]

elbows and LEVLHED said it all :) yes, i happen to have setup this forum because there was no such thing one year ago and i thought the VJ community would enjoy it (and because VJing is my passion, even if I don't produce/play as much as I'd like to). no one is holding you here though. if you hate this site, feel free to leave -- OR -- bring some positive constructive criticism (no ego-driven bashing) to help this community develops in a way you want (like the creation of your own footage). you cannot control it, but you can influence it with positive changes. enough said.

[eXhale]

Its all common knowlage among VJs so how come its Valuable here?because we are all learning and discovering new things all the time!!! are you born perfect or what? :o

[unjulation]

it's quite interesting that content has now become a relervant point