View Full Version : Sex!
26th January 2004, 10:44 PM
...is another word for Gender.
that last thread may be around for a while... probably going to be about how a question was asked and reacted to and stuff like that
but it may not get where we want to go with this discussion. and i was almost going to start this thread back up in inspiration or resonance but it didnt really fit, then i thought; hey no one ever has a heated debate in the meeting point (and i wanna moderate a fight! fight! fight! j/k).. and what an apt place, as we're gonna have to meet up on this issue, right?
so: i have some questions i would like to throw out
it appears that there is no true rig for either gender, but what about form, approach and content? what about mixing style? i really dont think there are going to be any hardened rules, but it does appear that there are going to be broader strokes that could be made.... but i am interested in seeing how it al breaks down....
(for a while in north america i thought that female vjs have themselves infront of the camera more than the male ones, but realized that that may be the case in NA but certainly not so clear in europe nor in japan). but what about persona? is that something that can be seen split more on gender lines?
i think of the qualities that i notcied in the women that have been in my life, qualities that i admit i sometimes lack, like patience, and a little more attention to details, but really think that this is more my personal experience than generalities. lord knows there are quite a few detail oriented guys here....
so those are all really VJ style issues....
what about on the playing field, what goes on? (i was thinking about asking about treatment from djs promoter and the kids, but i think we all probably endure a lot of the same neglect (then again i remeber what happened to holly a while ago from a dj and that kind of thing doesnt seem to happen too often on this side--- oh wait! at some of the after hours places u can play here, there is this big stripper rush at around 4:00 am after their clubs close, and i guess they are used to having that sexual power and doing whatever they want to guys cause once, 2 of em grabbed my hand to look at my ring while i was mixing (it was a cool ring)-- while its not a full frontal assault, and i didnt nearly feel as violated, i did feel like it was one of those fucked up gender things-- and pissed. cause i was MIXING with that hand.... anyway i am curious to know if that kind of thing (or to a lesser degree) happens most times you play....
oh yeah, and what about the treatment of dancing girls, objectification and the use of porn/soft.. we've talked about it before and it has touched up on gender issues in the past but it fully belongs here
so here we are in the meeting point, i'm your host, so i just want to say that I want to see a nice clean fight, you all knwo the rules of the game, no punching below the belt (now that's a sexist comment!) and when the bell rings, come out a swingin....
26th January 2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by littlecatalyst
[B come out a swingin.... [/B]
so is that
27th January 2004, 07:32 AM
ok RED, maybe it is (maybe not; Atlantic Translator = that may just mean everybody be open about whothey are, and swap partners...). but that is just the last sentance, i was trying to set up analternate thread, right? there's only been like how many people asking to close the previous one and start one up...
so what are the issues??
27th January 2004, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by wellREDman
so is that
how is that comment sexist?
27th January 2004, 08:24 AM
Somebody bang some heads together......please!
27th January 2004, 09:16 AM
FFS its no wonder that there are no female vjs here - in the real world i think that the ratio of female to male VJs is about 1:3 - it terms of posting here its about 1:100
am i the only person that finds this disturbing?
these discussions recently have been of a fucking primary school level - do you really think that this helps anyone? i would really like to see more women take an active part in this community but at the moment there is no chance of that.
sort it out before the men start leaving as well.....
27th January 2004, 10:02 AM
sexism, like any issue of prejudice or discrimination is always going to cause fierce debate no matter how mature the community is.
surely threatening to leave the community over a few feisty posts on sexism is more likely to give a bad impression of our ability to debate sensibly than discussing the subject openly?
27th January 2004, 10:05 AM
nobody's threatening to leave.... but it sure is difficult to get the ball rolling with all the wisecracks.... maybe its a way to lighten up the tension, but really why dont we just stick to the facts, opinions, beliefs and conjectures? please?
27th January 2004, 10:56 AM
there hasn't been any debate (fierce or otherwise) in BOTH of the current sexism threads. just stupid comments and personal digs
its like nobody even wants to talk about it - this is what's commonly known as denial - I'm sure most people here would be unhappy to admit that they are sexist and yet there are remarkable few women posters here - something is wrong and we can ether brush it under the carpet or try and discover what it is that is making women not post here
there are a number of things that i think put women off from posting on the forum - one is an obsession with technology so that any debate in any section of the forum rapidly turns into a who's got the latest shinny gadget conversation
another is the aggressive nature of a lot of the posts (ok people hold strong views but there is an art to expressing them without upsetting people)
most importantly though is the lack of discussion of content and technique - many of the female vjs i know are far more interested in what goes out on there screen than the male vjs (who are happy to be playing with a load of expensive toys) - it is harder for men to talk about there content because there are no absolutes - you can't really be right or wrong in a content discussion and so males tend to steer the conversation back into a technical discussion where they feel happy in the knowledge that there is a right and wrong answer and they can argue that they are right!
these statements are obviously sweeping generalizations and probably mealy show my own sexist viewpoint on the world - however i am not simply hypothesizing, other vjs have expressed these issues to me (and others I'm sure) and i would like people to attempt to take them on board and see if we can't find ways of broadening the topics covered on this site and thus hopefully broaden the participation in the debate and ultimately in vjing as a whole.
disclaimer - this post is about me as much as its about anyone else - don't read it as though i'm claiming to know the answers - i am after all still trying to work out the question!
27th January 2004, 11:12 AM
Nicely put Tom - I too, know of a few folks who would have much to contribute, who steer clear of these forums due to the petty squabbling and tedious rants that seem to go on these days. It appears, from the outside, that there are a few bods with too much time on their hands, and chips on their shoulders the size of, well, a big chip.
27th January 2004, 11:36 AM
first remove the plank from youer own eye then the speliter from youer bothers.
27th January 2004, 12:12 PM
I agree with Tom and Amukidi
I hate these bullshit sexism threads. It may be that most blokes on these forums are not sexist and would not judge a woman's work differently.
But they are hardly helping the integration of more women into the forums atmosphere. As Holly always reminds us, women think completely differently to men, and in a male/tech dominated space its easy to feel that your view will not be appreciated.
I often feel stupid when I can't keep up on a discussion about tech, but I do my best to understand and always show respect for that sort of talk. But when a thread starts about something that perhaps is more content or concept led it turns into a flamewar because it isn't based on cold hard fact.
What I'm saying is that, like it or not its deeply respected tohave a knowledge of tech here, and deeply disrespected to have a knowledge of ideas, or a progressive view about vjing.
This automatically discriminates- (in my opinion) against women.
But what's going to change- nothing. Because this line won't be accepted, or respected because its just an 'opinion.' And its only a certain type of woman that will come here because only they can take it on.
27th January 2004, 12:17 PM
O.K. I'll reply to Tom. I am a girl and I read the boards but don't post. This is partly because I'm a beginner and also I'm more interested in visuals to go with a particular music act than with being a VJ per se. I think girls are much more conscious of potentially feeling like a fraud on these forums. I have two gigs next week though so maybe will feel less like a fraud afterwards?
On the gender issues front I find it's the not so obvious stuff that really is problematic for women.. one example I can think of... At the Newcastle av festival at the end of last year I ended up as the only woman with 5 or 6 VJ guys.. In this situation you suddenly think - 'O.K. I'm not with anyone I hope no-one thinks I am trying to pull'. So, you try to keep a level of being friendly and professionally interested as such.. then suddenly two girls appeared (we were backstage at some club) wearing almost nothing and jiggling about.. and you just think Christ, now which group am I in? There is a, however subtle, shift in power balance. It is this stuff that isn't direct sexism that I don't think men appreciate - that it can be an uphill battle for women sometimes just to interact normally. And I find it worse in the performance field and in film industries.
My other current (major) bugbear is that regarding being a beginner I have been approaching various people for various help and advice. There is one particular technical thing that I have been trying to sort since early December. And have got really almost nowhere with. So, eventually I got my partner to send an email and check it out. He got an instant response and so much help. This is a technical computer issue and I would just like to point out that I have a science degree from Imperial College, work with Sun microsystems, Macs and PCs (I'm rendering a movie downstairs on a Sun as I type) every day and my partner is a (very good) drummer.
27th January 2004, 12:30 PM
Kommy - you are NOT helping, go play somewhere else today....
dresdner - thanks for that - don't for heaven's sake feel like a fraud, there are many blokes on this forum far more worthy of that title!! It is often true that the testosterone levels are on overload these days - just ignore it and say what you want to say - I think you now know there are some well balanced blokes here.
Lara - I owe you a hug :-D
27th January 2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by sleepytom
[B]most importantly though is the lack of discussion of content and technique - many of the female vjs i know are far more interested in what goes out on there screen than the male vjs (who are happy to be playing with a load of expensive toys) - it is harder for men to talk about there content because there are no absolutes - you can't really be right or wrong in a content discussion and so males tend to steer the conversation back into a technical discussion where they feel happy in the knowledge that there is a right and wrong answer and they can argue that they are right!i have always been more interested in discussions about content than technique, and since the start of this website have tried to promote more this side of vjing. i feel that over time there has been progress, at the beginning there was hardly any talks on the subject of content, now it's a little bit better. however i agree that many potentially interesting discussions get sidetracked, maybe we should use more moderation?
perhaps it's due to the nature of the subject though, it's difficult to describe what you put on the screen with words. many things are beyond words, and words are empty until they are filled with meaning. that is, if someone has developed a language for what they do, this language is mostly personal and would not have the same impact on others, or others would understand it differently, resulting in useless fights which are, knowingly or not, rooted in definitions (we can't even agree on what is a vj or an av act).
communication is not easy, no matter the gender, we should just try to do our best. the occasional good discussions on content have still brought me a lot and it's a shame that some people don't want to share their thoughts for fear of being missunderstood. as long as there is language, and until we have all developed telepathy, there will be missunderstanding. this is the reality we live in. the world would be boring if everyone experienced it the same way.
27th January 2004, 12:47 PM
glad we have a proper discussion going now:) (im just going to ignore that gay remark ne1)
I think u brought up a good point lara...i personally dont care a great deal about the equiptment i use and therefore dont post that much in the software/hardware forums but ive found that no one really wants to talk about their content and im too scared to start a thread myself.
Direct sexism has pretty much been stamped out imho but it seems that all over the place there are covert signs as opposed to more overt signs. These are going to be the ones that take time and a lot of effort to rid ourselves of. Honestly i find myself doing it from time to time and have to check myself before it actually affects any judgements i make. I hope we all realise when we are doing this.
It seems that only the strong female personalities like holly and lara seem to survive here
Maybe we can now just have this discussion and continue to use these forums as a source of education and inspiration as eX probably meant them to be.
27th January 2004, 12:50 PM
damn u beat me to it ex
27th January 2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Lara
What I'm saying is that, like it or not its deeply respected tohave a knowledge of tech here, and deeply disrespected to have a knowledge of ideas, or a progressive view about vjing.
Nicely put Lara,
I think theres a lot of dudes hiding behind their gadgets and gizmos, making out that the tech side of things is the most important aspect. But how wrong they are...
Hard work on content creation and pushing the easthetics of our artform is the main thing that's gona get us noticed and taken seriously.
Of course if some want to impress with the size of their rigs, knobs and buttons while all their projecting is a some dirty brown and grey muck it's sad but fine. Keep your dull litle sub culture, but don't call yourself an artist...
27th January 2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by julez
ive found that no one really wants to talk about their content and im too scared to start a thread myself.come on julez, i know you can do it! ;) it's useless to wait for changes, wish for changes, complain about lack of changes. changes happen because some people decided to take actions. it starts with you.
27th January 2004, 01:03 PM
Julez you are surviving pretty good here too--an i hope that doesn't stop.
i see the 'guys wanna talk about tech and that is sometimes intimidating' idea, and wonder about it. maybe because of the harshness of the tone-- but if i think of the women here who are regulars or even semi regs, they can all blow me away on a computer (i just switched from VHS+ toaster this year) and have way more experience with tech and gear....
at the same time, yes you have to be prepared to be pushed a little if you are going to go out on a limb content wise-- (i would say that the same thing is true if one is going ot show their work [i]anywhere[i]. its been the case in content, thats true... is that what keeps women away?
i am wondering.... what separates female painters from male? writers? now that everything is stratfied perhaps there are some generalities....I am sure that there are things from content to tone that may *sometimes* be truisms. you say we think differently so we mihgt have different things coming from our minds, hands and keyboards
seems like we have three thigs going on here:
1. sexism in VJing
2. VJC and its unXXfriendly atmosphere (maybe its all teh blue and grey?)
3. Female content/style as opposed to Male (if this even exists)
and this will get mushy......but i think that sa helathy start
27th January 2004, 01:09 PM
Julez you are surviving pretty good here too--an i hope that doesn't stop.
Thanx for the compliment littlecat but im not female so it doesnt really apply to me. Was that the way i appeared??:P :o
27th January 2004, 01:11 PM
...about the "no one talks about content" i just went back into teh content section tocheck an see if maybeive been in an alternate reality this past year.... sure the past month has been pretty shitty content wise, but over the past year i have seen people very willing to talk about content (from the smaplers telling u what their favoite stuff is, to old school approaches and thoughts on content) and then there's Resonance (most popular thread in there is Lara's on Narrative).... so i dont fully get it.
btw lucid/morris, ur stuff is georgeous
27th January 2004, 01:13 PM
origginally posted by JulezThanx for the compliment littlecat but im not femaleooops! maybe the name.... (oh i get it its like Jules, not like JulieZ, oh sorry) and i guess morris is a guys name too, huh? (think i better go sit with kommy and oli)
27th January 2004, 01:23 PM
haha its all good littlecat:D
ur right though...i probably should have read the content sections a bit more carefully before posting. I suppose it just hasnt been to busy lately and therefore i havent read it as much. Anyway my apologies
28th January 2004, 07:23 AM
Nothing to do with authority Kommy - its just that a good deal of your posts are either inflammatory or just plain childish. (See last one if you are confused).
28th January 2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Lara
What I'm saying is that, like it or not its deeply respected to have a knowledge of tech here, and deeply disrespected to have a knowledge of ideas, or a progressive view about vjing.
I think the point your making there Lara, that this forum leans in a tech direction, is valid & unfortunate. But I think your description of a deep dis-respect for knowledge of idea's/progressive views is way over the top. None of this is meant personally by the way, I'm just keen to enter the debate on a thread that seems to be showing promising discussion :)
I think the reason for the lack of discussion on content and directed progression is that the user base of the forum are often not concerned with narrative/artistic message. I think most people are far from disrespecting content with artistic message or story, just because they choose not to, or are incapable of incorporating this kind of message into their show, doesn't mean they disrespect it. Maybe I've just not read enough of the forums, and I've missed some of the chat on these subjects, but i find it difficult to imagine how fellow VJ's, who are well aware of the amount of work necessary to add narative or artistic message into their work, could show disrespect for this choice of direction.
I think what we're looking at here is the most common evolution of current young male VJ's, and this site reflects this lifecycle. He decides to get into visuals for whatever reason, plays about with software, makes some loops, samples whatever, plays some gigs, plays some more gigs, makes some more loops that look pretty, plays some more gigs... I think the trend seems to be that only after the young male VJ has been playing gigs till near saturation point does he realise that his content actually needs some direction, and the majority of the users of this site, and VJ's at large, are at the cusp of this realisation IMHO so hopefully over time content discussion will begin to improve. I think the comments on this thread are correct when they hint that girls who enter this industry often start off outside of this very predictable initial introduction, hence their frequently inspirational approaches & content.
I can only begin to imagine the frustrations of being female in a male dominated industry. But I've never come across a VJ who would discriminate directly against a colleague for being female - thats not to say i believe it doesn't happen, merely that i believe it is infrequent, as infrequent as many other problems a VJ faces, like ground loops, or bent s-video pins. What i'm trying to say is that individually we all have problems to conquor to achieve our goals. fundamentally i don't believe the VJ 'industry' is sexist, so please if your female don't be put off by 'the not so obvious stuff' that happens around you. rise above.
apologies for previous lazy comments towards this subject, they were fuelled by my wholly inappropriate interest in reading a bit of scandal, and also my lack of confidence in a healthy debate on the subject.
28th January 2004, 10:33 AM
Being a young male vj dave, i dont really think like this...i cant speak for anyone else but i think that it has more to do with the background of the vj than anything else. Being from a creative production background rather than a technical one, i certaintly try not to think in this way even though ive only done a handful of gigs. I think the vjs who think like this are the ones who come to visuals from a completely unrelated background and decide that this is a cool thing to do. They then do as u said...create a few loops and the like.
I think few females come into visual production this way with more of them coming from the creative side into live presentation. I suppose IMHO that makes the it less of a gender issue and more of a background one.
28th January 2004, 10:52 AM
ok kommy, now ur just being rude.
things would be exactly how they should be if u left this thread
28th January 2004, 12:47 PM
Any collective of people like this has a power structure. The people who make the 'knowledge' are percieved to hold the power. The tutors in a course, the boss, the 'expert.'
Vjforums has some very strong female voices who make the knowledge, and that's all good.
Some people think that the whole aspect of content is completely personal. Other people think that the quality of content is something that can be judged. As a result, the content threads are a collection of opinions, there is no conclusion and they frequently become personal. There can be little 'knowledge' made in this section of the forum.
As a result we end up with a higly developed tech forum, where facts are solid, and we end up with a less developed content section, because we cannot agree on any way of discussing the issues involved.
The view that vjforums is sexist is I think, a natural side effect of this, because women tend to be more interested in content and technique and less in tech. There is less here for them.
The question is what is anybody going to bother to do? What does the 'average young male vj' care about gender issues, and how does he even approach it without getting flamed (poor Chuck ;) ).
We need to redress the balance on the content front, and then I think the women will come.
28th January 2004, 02:11 PM
I think the problems that VJF is facing are more general than just the gener stuff - although our inability to deal with the sex issue is the most visible symptom.
It's the same problem that affects most online communities at some point. No one wants to talk about the stuff that they really care about because when you do that, you're opening yourself up to attack, so everyone posts more often about the things that piss them off, which just makes the problem worse. Similarly, it's easier to critise someone elses work than to post your own and see what people think.
The good news is that as communities mature, they usually pull out of the negative phase (never completely in my experience - there will always be the odd flame war) It's all about critical mass. If enough members are posting positively then everyone feels more confident to share and a virtuous cycle results.
Something worth bearing in mind is that participation in any thread is completely optional. If you don't like the topic, just go and start a thread about a topic that you do like.
I would really like to see more people expressing their views by starting threads about things they are interested in rather than going into threads on topics they disagree with and turning them into arguments.
Debates are good, yes, but not every thread about sampling needs to debate the rights and wrongs of it. Not every thread about a particular VJ software needs posts about how another software is better.
As the host of the mix content forum, I want to do the right thing to make it a place where discussion is focussed on all of us making better content. It's hard to know how far to go in 'enforcing' this though - how would people feel if I took a much stronger line, removing or moving out any posts that I think will just cause pointless arguments?
The thing that will really solve the problems we have though would be for all of us to post about the things we enjoy and ignore the threads that will just make us angry.
BTW, if only we could slap a big "Do not take this user seriously" disclaimer, on Kommys posts, they would be a welcome (to me, at least) bit of silliness - like when a grown up argument is interuped by a child saying something totally inappropriate and mood lightens. Maybe that's just me though...
28th January 2004, 04:25 PM
I think the fact that forums is technologically biased is a manifestation of the fact that it is basically question led,
people, even the greenest newbie will have an opinion of what they want their content to be like, and also content is a bit of a voyage of discovery where you just play about in AE or whatever and take whet comes out,
but technical questions, you cant answer on your own, so they get asked more often, and having definite answers get answered more thoroughly
the problem with content, is that its much more subjective, and so anything that involves opinions is gonna be more prone to problematical discussion
I personally stay fairly clear of most content stuff cos of my low tolerance for artschool intellectual wank
28th January 2004, 04:29 PM
Everyone's griping about how much tech talk goes on... but I think everyone here has been in the situation of having a specific technical problem and using this site to fix it. If anything, the tech aspect is one of the areas that works most fluidly, as new items are discussed and detailed in a way that often involves inside hands-on information. I don't think having too much tech talk is hurting anyone.
Conversely, discussion of other topics often gets off base and meander into some silly debate. Still, there are numerous short threads that didn't spiral into gibberish that I've found very useful.
I also find that when I post on something thats more subjective, it tends to take a lot longer. I mean, you have to digest the original discussion, solidify your own opinions and then compose them in a manner that makes sense. Certainly I don't always take the time to do that (screwing up at least one of the steps) but I do try, and I think other people do as well. Usually, if someone bothers to raise some good points, this leads to further discussion.
Well there, I managed to use my time on that, rather than the gender issue.
28th January 2004, 04:50 PM
...interesting thread on this hot topic.
...wanted to add a few thoughts & oppinions of my own:
sexism isn't about men discriminating women (which is what we seem to be discussing here - imo). it's about viewing people through a prejudiced frame based on their sex. this goes both ways & comes with negatively as well as positively connotated prejudices.
men & women are different, yes. but men & men and women & women are different to an even greater extent. differences between individuals are much larger than general differences between the sexes.
i don't see how a 'too many techie threads' problem would have anything to do with sexism or being exclusive to women. first of all i personally only rarely follow those threads because i'm more interested in discussions on content, technique, (vj)culture, perception, etc -- 'yet' i am male. secondly, if guys should feel like discussing such topics (...endlessly) then that's perfectly fine; why should they feel bad about it? (... i'm not suggesting anyone actually said it wasn't ok ;) ).
But when a thread starts about something that perhaps is more content or concept led it turns into a flamewar because it isn't based on cold hard fact.
i share your pain :help: . however i haven't been under the impression that flaming is a gender specific (i.e. male specific) issue. not on vjf, not generally. ...what isn't based on cold hard fact, but rather on our convictions, oppinions, impressions (...) is often also what we have quite strong feelings about - which makes a certain level of flaming almost impossible to avoid, i guess (sampling discussions anyone?? :heart: ). ...& besides: aren't certain 'technical' discussions the worst flamewars of all (vjo is god -- mac vs pc -- laptop only vjs -- ...)?
offensive, sexist flaming however is just plain stupid & inacceptable imho. i remember boys & girls doing that though, ...& have felt quite offended myself on more than one occasion.
but i guess it's the much more subtle forms of sexism that are the really difficult ones to address: what can you do if your arguments (as a woman) are ignored or disrespected (by men) because they are just 'oppinions'?? what can you do if you want to talk shop (or just chat on a subject) as a woman in/with a group of guy-vjs & then a couple of drugged groupies appear??
i guess the only true antidote to stuff like that -- & we men have to fight with such things just the same, it's only in different circumstances (...e.g. childcare) -- is a healthy amount of self esteem & a positive attitude (like you deserve it :sun: )! it will make bridging the gender gap easier - especially under particularly unfavorable circumstances - with those guys (girls) that are willing to overcome it in the first place, it will allow you to raise awareness of your situation if necessary & it will allow you to ignore whoever isn't willing to make any effort at all. i know it may seem kind of unfair to say that the solution is better self esteem - the thing is however: it really works! having said that, i also have to say that it should go both ways & of course you should (& can) also expect to be treated by members of the opposite sex with the same respect they would treat someone of their own sex!
i believe (hope) that a majority of men & women are willing to bridge this gap, & stretching out your hand may often be all it takes.
...on a side note: i'm kind of surprised that you (lara) seem to have the impression that your 'oppinions' are disrespected here, because i really don't think that's true - on the contrary! in any case i personally am often inspired by your remarks & always enjoy reading them :yep: .
finally: if more threads & discussions on content make this site more attractive to female vjs then that's one more good reason to have more of those discussions..... so what are we waiting for?
28th January 2004, 05:03 PM
Very well said Flucht
28th January 2004, 08:16 PM
I'd like to follow on from what red said regarding content. It is highly a personal exploration. People can discuss the content they already have, and to an extent ideas, but these are all personal things, and if VJ X talks about one thing, it means very little to VJ Y who can take inspiration (to the small extent, without direct copying of work or prehaps more importantly style). Prehaps somebody could suggest how content can be discussed in a way that would be not only interesting, but usefull as well. This isn't meant as a dig a previous point, but just somethign i've noticed personaly.
I think this is also the reason for the abundance of tech thread, since these provide an anwer that can be used straight away, where as content is something you really have to do by yourself. Everybody has different views about what works and doesnt.
As for the sexism, I personally think there isn't a problem. As lilcat proved, nobody really knows what sex peeps are unless they've posted many times. There may be small incidences of people being ignored/undermined but that is by sepcific individuals, not the forums as a whole, as it being suggested. Everybody here is different, some fit into a classical artist frame, some into a techy frame, some into hippy, some into "cool", personal i think i fit into the "typical road-crew" frame, but heh, whatever you look like makes no difference to your art/light show/visuals.
Oh well, i hope i haven't put my foot in my mouth too many times in that thread, but if i have i didn't intend to. :)
28th January 2004, 08:36 PM
yeah i think charlie has a point , i think thers as much sexism as there is say anti intellectuallism
and lets not forget that sexism, like racism often cuts both ways,
I for one would never have dreamed of starting a thread relating to sexual issues /politics , simply because it does evoke such knee jerk responces from both sides
29th January 2004, 12:01 AM
I saw this and couldn't help myself, sorry ;)
Courtesy of b3ta.com
29th January 2004, 10:25 AM
To reply to fluchtpunkt.. The point I was trying to make really is why the women that are about on the forums react when there is perceived or direct sexist / gender issues. What I was saying about the less obvious and harder to fight incidents of sexism is that a culture where you are used to this kind of stuff happening certainly leads me to be 'primed' on the issue. One thing that has been noted before is that it's maybe a certain type of woman that survives on these male dominated forums. In the wider media / music industry I find that really there are three ways it goes with women - keep your head down and don't draw attention to yourself (probably mostly O.K. but you get patronised quite frequently), be more 'one of the boys' than the boys are and make sure no-one treats you as a woman under any circumstance (very unpopular with other women and can be quite unnatural, I know women that have injured themselves by trying to compete carrying things etc) or go for the almost overly sexualised 'we all know I'm a woman and I defy you to treat me differently despite the bikini top / thigh boots' whatever.. I find trying to get out of these boxes is really hard when you're in the minority. I know I can be guilty when I know there is a man available to carry something that I could probably manage or can fix the computer faster than me, of being 'a girl' and using their willingness to help. At the same time though I also exploit women friends to help me with all sorts of stuff without having to concede competency.. Anyhow I'll shut up about it now, I just wanted to try and explain as a woman maybe why women are generally quieter and then maybe prickly. heidi
29th January 2004, 01:31 PM
Thank you Fluct :o
I have to agree with Heidi, I feel exactly the same way she does.
Also Kommy's ideas about sharing work are wicked.
This has been a good debate I think :yep:
29th January 2004, 01:38 PM
I think I said everything I could about gender issues in the now defunct thread, so Im not going to go over the same ground again.
What I wanted to say is yay yay content, style, clip sharing, video of people using their rigs, anything that isnt pure tech questions. I am a techhead but even I tire of the imbalance after a while.
Need more positive thingies here! I stand by ready to help in any way I can over the course of this year. On that note, Lara I will email you tonght with more website details, sorry for the delay.
As for myself, I dont have any finished content worthy of showing, but am likely to get back into uploading current experiments, which are usually involving strange control methods. I really need a content creation partner or 3, I lack the confidence in that department.
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