yet one more fair use thread (where WE win!!!)

[littlecatalyst]

kudos to artist Thomas Forsythe who just won a FAIR USE ruling in the good old US of A. i love the judges quote:
originally said by Judge Harry Pergerson The benefits to the public in allowing such use-- allowing artistic freedom, experession and criticism of a cultural icon-- are great
of course this doesn't mean that a vj can just play your stuff and call it artistic whatever-- dont get yer knickers in a knot-- but it does mean exactly what we evil bottomfeeding sampler cowboys (and cowgirls) have been saying all along, that if you are artistically saying something about the images youre appropriating, then you have a legal right to do so (at least in the good 'ol us of a). in fact some say the benefits could be great.

so kudos to forsythe and the farsighted judges, oh an Mattel and Barbie (yes the doll) for being such easy marks; if you want to see teh offending work goto http://www.illegal-art.org/print/popups/forsythe.html
y i p e e e

at :jump: list now we have an example of art, not a straight up criticsm that does what we've been saying all along

[mondo]

there IS a vj god after all!!
happy new year cat and thanks for teh good news

[littlecatalyst]

same back at you armand, happy new years and many many awesome projects to come!!

oh and a happy new year to all==> including a nice new years gift (wasn't sure if this was a christmas gift, a kwanza present or a hannuka dreidle so i thought heck happy new year)
==> some killer fair use safe video mashups and other silly stuff
http://www.illegal-art.org/video/index.html#spin 16 videos including the complete Spin (1 hour of interesting stolen clips from satelite feeds that say quite a bit) and that super cute teletubies with king george II as the cooing baby in the sun

happy new year to all the mixers punters media hacktivists and all....

[littlecatalyst]

OK: EVERYBODY has got to go see Negativeland's "Gimme The Mermaid" on that site i just posted

or dial direct: http://www.illegal-art.org/video/popups/gimme.html

that is just teh funniest thing i have ever seen, plus a total kick in the balls to Disney (always fun) and even interesting regarding the personal/political and just how far you can actually go in defaming someone in a video mix

[julez]

yay!!...finally a good christmas present. I only wish the same would happen here.

[elbows]

Me does like Gimie The Mermaid, even sweeter when you read about what it was made with lol. Im going to be copied Im going to be copied.

Im glad to be wrong, it was only recently I was saying on the forum how fair use was no use, and now heres a case where it was of use. Hurrah!

[Rovastar]

The end of the world is nigh littlecat...the end of teh world is nigh where will the orginal artists come from........

[littlecatalyst]

Rva Rova dear
after youve nursed that nasty hangover:
will you please watch the video clip in question

even you, yes you, will probably appreciate what they are doing there with their thievery......


and dont you worry about nothing, the end of the world or running out of artists, at leats by my watch the world is still spinning and you still cant throw a brick withot hitting an artist sqare in the goatee, so fret ye not little rova, and god bless us all, each and every one of us

[disassembler]

You know Doing live shows that are for the sack of entertainment $$$ isn't within the realm.

O.J. SImpson won. Doesn't mean he isn't a killer.

[disassembler]

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy and appreciate all these pieces. I posted the link a year ago in another thread. To play devils advocate of course. Copyright is something that the world wants to have a clear understanding of. Being in the academic world I deal with this everyday. Really everyday.

[littlecatalyst]

so........?

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by disassembler
is something that the world wants to have a clear understanding of. Being in the academic world I deal with this everyday. Really everyday.

the academic world is hardly the "real world" and i think if you were going to take a poll of what the world wants i think copyright laws would be pretty low as compared to say clean water, rights to protect children, women, um, peace... i think if you were going to ask the WORLD what it needs and try to get any consensus, you really are swinging empties if you think that intellectual property rights woudl be anywhere nearteh top 25 on that list

[disassembler]

I'm done with VJcentral

[littlecatalyst]

look dion i dont mean to be a dick-- and i do hope you stay around

but underdtand what i said please i didnt mean this as an insult: in the USA right now you have something like <40M people with broadband. that leaves 320M people, out of which around half do not even have a 52K modem in their home (or trailer).

in a university you have everything from 1) class material and readings ((They can no longer justr get phtocopied now teh scool must pay the author)) 2) Professors who get paid more with each book they write (apparently articles in peer reviewed journals are good for more $ as well)) 3) films and videos that cos a fortune torent/show to a class..... and of ocurse 4) the droms ful of pirates stealing mp3 files. yes on campus this is a huge issue, (and as someoen who consdi9ders himself a media activist this is a huge issue) i am not trying to be beligerent by saying that it isn't such a big deal outside of our bubble. outside of about 10-25% of the population this issue is musrky at best.

so please dont go running away in a huff diss--- if you want i'll lay off of ya but this is not worth leaving over

[littlecatalyst]

but now im a little pissed.
and not at anyone here but ive been thinkoing about this and want some answers!
check this out; in the past few years i have bough about 300 blank cdrs. out of which i hav emusic on about 20:
-3 records that are rare and never been released on disc
-2 really hard to find discs, i burn copies so i dont over play the original
-5 discs of friend's music
-2 or 3 from DJs who want me to know what music they'll be playing at a gig (given not burnt)
-about 12 discs of my own music, and things that my AV band is working on.....
then i got lots and lots and lots of loop discs that were traded and/or bought then burnt.
then (as we all gotta pay bills too) i have work burnt on cds. this includes drawings and renderings and reports and more words than i woudl like to remember....

so heres why i am madder than Ed Anger at this particular moment., my government in cahoots with the RIAA goons have added a levy to each blank CDr that i bought. this money apparently falls into some scheme where they end up paying artists (i guess they use billboard charts and spyware to know who to pay). and im thinking they charge enough of a levyto coevr MPs burns not just cd burns (so whatthat like 100 songs per disc? they charged me a levy on burining 30,000 sngs when i have almost 6 cds (not full of mp3s but a dj mix and albums-- and of which all have already been purchased) and im sure im not the only one, i'm certain that there are lawyers offices full of cdrs with nary a song to be heard. SO NOW PEOPLE ARE BEING PAID from my pocket, for intellectual property that i never saw, never touched, never wanted to sample>loop>fuck with

So now here we got preemptive sample laws..... and im the one giving brittney spears money???? WTF is that all about? oh and i'm willing to bet that those RIAA goons are giving the money to people like that rather than to people like my old band-- even though lotsa people download that too.... lotsa people Iin fact i have seen stuff that i am on the credits for getting dowloaded ("dead flag blues" go download it see if i care) quite a bit-- and no one is givig me any duckets. and yet they have no problem taking my money for things i didnt do.

this copyright law sucks ass

[syzygy]

Originally posted by disassembler
I'm done with VJcentral

Surely a comment like that deserves at least a little explanation...?

Dan.

[Rovastar]

littlecatalyst

Watching that spin clip now.

Is that the worlds biggest liar Micheal Moore as the narrater? (Ok it is probablyt not him but it sounds liek him in my book and taht is enough for me)

If it is LOl at the irony of Michela Moore talking about spin.

Sorry I cannotr stand his voice any longer.....where is that smiliey :bullshit:

I cannot beleive he has still kept his oscar for a documentary lol

revoketheoscar.com

[littlecatalyst]

oh Rova pleeeeeease watch the GIMME THE MERMAID clip???
pleeeeaaasssee?


oh and no its not michael moore in that clip, but you know those american liberals, they all sound alike ;)

[Rovastar]

Actually just watched it.

What Am I looking out for visualy it was ok I suppose. But really it has done nothing at all to change my mind just got me wound up.

People taht make this sort of stuff remind me of reminds me of someone that writes rasict jokes thinking that if they are funny enough then it is ok isn't it.

Well I hope the 'artist' is giving blowjobs on street corners for cheeseburger so he can feed his family.

Can you give me some background on it. What was the telephone converastion about. Mayeb for his next fim he could get a rape victims voice or something. Common I sure he could make it funny and visualy good after all he is an 'artist'

[littlecatalyst]

all i know is that its a music industry lawyer. sounds like talking to somone who recorded a session, but was doing soemthing with the outttakes.... either that or a musician who didnt want to put something out but was contractually obliged.... i have no idea if he is talking to the Disney "collaborator" or not, but that would likely be the case, negatveland like to do stuff like that (the U2 debacle a few years ago)

i guess as a disney animator having to do "visually good" work all day, he was more excited about the possibility of visually not good (sorta like punk rock, or how grunge came from seattle which up to the 90's was epicenter of muzac recording) like you say, "one man's noize..... " right rova?

but huh?? do you actually consider the lawyer to be a victim? and are you implying that disney is suffering the same way a rape victim is/would?

[Rovastar]

infer what you will from my comments ;)

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Rovastar
infer what you will from my comments ;)

Okay, we will. But don't blame us if we have a pretty dim view of you. ;)

Dan.

[Rovastar]

Actually when I saw the film I presumed the voice was a Disney exec, etc and talking about that piece being made as that is what that implied to me. So he made the stuff he was commission to do was told not to and released it anyway. Hence my strong comments but hey I tried to inject twisted humour into the comments so that makes it all ok...right??! I am trying to follow the same logic.

Yet without the speaking it is nothing to me. It imagery didn't inspire may and another excuse for average visuals to be bigged up more because they are said to have some comedy value.

If it is not speaking from Walt Disney lawyers, etc then it is all out of context to me and as a peice of modern art it fails to bring a true reflection of something groundbreaking, etc. ANd why is it illegal art then just for the Little Mermaid imagery.

What am I looking at that as an visual illustration and brilliant video or a funny poorly animated short. It was all bigged up as blah, blah this *Disney* wow animator did this. If I wanted funny basically animated stuff I would watch South Park or something.

If you this as not particularly funny and poor imagery compared to how would art types say this piece was lets see if I can do it

?Political satire encompassing the legal decompartmentalisation of social manifestations in a given wider microcosm of corporate greed and exploitation of the plethora moribund copyright practices.?

No I didn't succed I didn't sound up my own arse enough.

By Dan - Okay, we will. But don't blame us if we have a pretty dim view of you.

Oi! stay out of mine and cat threads. :P;)

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by Rovastar
Oi! stay out of mine and cat threads. :P;)
Rova!!! that's the most romantic thing i've heard in ages.....



(real reply on lawyers aestetics and all things nigativeland soon--- i acutually have to go do that work thing now)

[evomedia]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by disassembler
I'm done with VJcentral
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Alot of us hear are starting to get fed up with this copyright issue, I dont blame anyone who self creates giving up on vjf completely, as anyone who works with copyright everyday or has been ripped off by samplers is getting sick of this 'I have the right to steal other people's work attitude'

Many self creators, understandably, are beginning to view their own work as open to theft around other vj's here, and who can blame them. The samplers havent given ANY indication they are selective on where content comes from only they have a right to sample it. So I know lots of self creators here are thinking, would they steal the content I poored my soul into if they get the chance? Answer...well I wouldn't leave a disc around some people in here.

And I wouldn't want the content I may have spent months of time and money making, just becoming a free sampled clip, after all I'm not spending my own cash to fund others who never spend anything on content.

So just a word of warning, dont be hard on those that don't want to hear the jusifications...I'd rather not know just how many people in here would steal my libraries and jusify it as artistic expression if I challenged them on it.

[littlecatalyst]

blah blah blah blah blah blah
Evomedia
haveyou bothered to read any of the older posts dealing with this issue? there have been at least 5 times that i can remember (YOU DO YOUR HOMEWOR SINCE YOU ARE ALL UP IN IT ABOUT EVERYONE STEALING YOUR WORK) where everyone (of the bottomfeeding stealing assholes you love so much) has had concensus on what is ok to take and what is not. the "ANY indication that they are selective" each time, they have something like "its never never ever cool to rip off stuff from other VJs" and other posts about how awful it is to play something straight. so in fact i dont knwo what planet you are on but here at VJC there is a healthy debate about what is and what is not acceptible to sampole.... btw WFT do you think you have been reaeding here in the thread i started?? it is about POLITICAL mashups ffs. did you see the clips or are you just farting out on your keybopard to say that "they' suck and "we" rock? most people who say stuff liek dissasembler that he's leaving, have not spent their time with a healthy debate..... they spend it sayting how samplers suck, have no morals, and are not worth respect. so get fed up... .i am willingto put money on it that it isn't just samplers that piss certain people off, but that they are pissed off in general and using this to vent.... sure there are 12 year olds who mix teh matix and other eyecandy together, but then again i have seen a lot of DIY stuff that is just as lame, not everybody can be great.... but gosh what it woudl be to live in a place like you do where everything is right/wrong absolutes, what a crock. "all samplers"...."never spent anything on content"
...and especially in the case of THIS thread, about work that is dealing with political issues and media and mainstream it is actually NOT THE PLACE to go whinning about poor old you. I sample, I make my own content, havebeen doing that for over 10 years now. I have had my sets recorded and played byteh clubowners after they kicked my sorry ass to the curb (got to see my work on the marquee/tv towers for a few months afterwards) i have seen buddies of mine use little clips (usually with asking foirst WHICH IS ANOTHER THING THAT SAMPLERS HAVE DICTATED AS PART OF APPROPRIATE ETHICS IN VJC MANY TIMES ALREADY) have seen things everywhere in between. I have songs that get downloaded on Kazaa every day (I am sure i get ripped off more than you do eco) and yet do i spend my days looking backwards to continue being mad at people i don't even know (who truth be told prolly have more in common with me than the man on teh street). why waste time like that. know what? i hav ebeen ripped off a lot and also been given breaks and achances that i could never have dreamed about.... and all in all thats just noize blocking out the signal. don't leave your discs around ever anyway.... there are more people in a club who will steal who arent VJS, and just wiat till you want to release something, then you may really have something to bitch about it you go with a traditional media outlet (how many have seen their Moonshine ROyalty Cheques yet??)
we are not the enemy. Us vs. Them is an illusion. and sampling VJS and DIY vjs (and all the bi ones who do both) are all part of the same little family. what annoys me is not only the thinkskinned certitudes but the need to come and crash theb party everytime someone says fair use (This thread was about someone using a Barbie Doll for fucks sake not justifying stealing someones masterpiece)
Originally posted by evomedia
Many self creators, understandably, are beginning to view their own work as open to theft around other vj's here, and who can blame them. The samplers havent given ANY indication they are selective on where content comes from only they have a right to sample it. So I know lots of self creators here are thinking, would they steal the content I poored my soul into if they get the chance? Answer...well I wouldn't leave a disc around some people in here.

[evomedia]

littlecatalyst, its in this thread purely because disassembler is stepping out of vjf in this thread.

I was only saying if people say they are leaving vjf because of being attacked for defending copyright, I can understand why.

And I know other threads say whats ok to sample, I sorry I don't believe that my work isn't open to sampling here.

Its a sad state if we loose people from these forums, because some people are begining to seriously doubt the morals here and even worry if work is safe. You may follow you own rules or even those set out on vjc.

But the truth is its getting to be an issue when people say "ok thats it I've had it with VJF" based on copyright issues.

So back off. Because to tell the truth, I'm getting sick of it too. Saying to him the achedemic world isn't the real world, or this copyright law sucks ass, excuse me but you can rant in a thread, cause someone to leave, then complain when I say hey wait a sec. Stop making anyone who doesn't think copyright complete rubbish a target for contempt.

So its not a general rant, this thread already got onto subject and someone left VJF in it. So ok, I wont every mention copyright again. I'm sick of the subject. Just stop acting as if anyone on the other side of this debate is talking crap if they defend a law that is the only protection against media theft. I know your not the only one, but people are leaving not because they cant reconcil it, just they are feeling under attack it they defend it.

I dont care for a VJF that is only filled with people adovating sampling. If all thats left is pro samplers, then its a sad state to loose those that create every legally. After all some people really do manage with never sampling, my point even is not sampling in its entirity, but sampling with no effort to clear content legally.

[Rovastar]

evomedia,

There are still a few of us fighting that corner. It is amazing what people do consider fair game for content they just 'play'.

Questions like what constitutes a ?remix?/?sample fair use? remain unanswered and I know how difficult it is to answer such things. To me that means that simply playing 2 minutes of Hollywood film xyz in invert followed by 2 minutes of Hollywood film abc is a remix?!?

All copyright issues seem to be talked about in big corporations that have enough money that they are fair game to rip off in this unjust world. To be fair no-one hear would state that they would use/sample/remix other VJ?s work without permission but I know that some would.

But also what about others Video Artists, Flash animators, hell even screensaver makers and Hollywood film, etc. At what point aren?t they artists. Most and I do believe most VJ?s will not rip another actual VJ?s clips too much but there are many, many degrees here. I know from talking to some good friends of mine who are VJ?s see for example visualizations stuff as fair game. And I am not talking small VJ ones who regularly have 3,000+ capacity crowds and some of the best named clubs, etc. But I am not going to bang on about that.

I see some scenes from say Lord Of The rings film and thing wow nice effect there that was creative, etc, etc others see that and think I could use that in my set.

Where is the line in the sand drawn? It is a sliding scale and it never seems to be drawn apart from the very vague no VJ?s clps.

And littlecat I could post everytime a story where copyright had been infringed and it went with the copyright holder but there would be too many posts here.

There are sensible discussions that people like Sleepy Tom have raised (that I still had not got back too- not ignoring you Tom) about having a decent system of allowing copyrighted footage to be played in public. But for that there needs to be *somehow* a system I feel for the amount you use the footage and how. Not to mention the fact that I know it would not be cost effective as pp would not pay Vj?s I know are not rich but all the experience I know is that they do not pay for something that they could get for free. But that story and another thread for another time when I have more time.

And sampling does not always mean stealing although 95% of the time it does.

Although we may need to all clam down a little I know what me and littlecat are like here on the forums but I understand that others see our OTT replies as an outbreak for all out war. Although the copyright issues and the like are always heated debates here we are all after the same goal for making people enjoy visuals we just go about it in different ways.

Edited for littlecats and evo?s additional replies

[holly]

Whew, LittleCattalist (alright, if we have to use everyone's full name you all have to get shorter names!), you have gone OFF the deep end on this one. I went to the site and am very happy to see the downloads are available in MPEG2. That being said, and admitting I didn't wait for any of the downloads, the only film I'm familiar with is the Karen Carpenter Story done with Barbie?s. This was a big campy classic about 10 years ago at underground festivals and I saw a bit of it and just really thought it wasn't very good. So you take a tragic story and make fun of everyone involved. What a scream. That makes you oh, so, clever to be such a shitty person. When someone famous is so miserable they end up killing themselves - what a riot. Hoo hoo, haw haw.

Next point, LilCat (fuck the full name thing, I'm a slow typist) what's your beef with Disney? Do you know that Disney was one of the first high-profile companies to instigate FULL MEDICAL BENIFITS to same sex couple employees? That's right, every former drama major in a furry suit in the park who has a gay lover can sleep easy knowing his partner is covered by Uncle Walt. When the Christian Right organized a boycott against the Disney theme parks for Disney supporting gay relationships Roy Disney himself told them that haters weren't welcome at Disney so he hoped they did all boycott and stay away. Yeah The company has been agressive about their own copyrights but so what? When you build a multi-billion dollar franchise on one cartoon character you better believe you're going to protect the reputation of that character! If you are 6 years old (or the parent of a 6 year old) you need to know that Mickey is Mickey. It's called brandname trust, and as a parent it is a LOT more important than as a 30-something artist. Having my boyfriend's 12 yearold daughter around through the holidays I've had my fill of Disney channel, but obviously she hasn't. And after watching a few hours worth of shows (and craving a valium), I've come to realize that Disney channel is to pre-teen girls, what every other channel has always been to little boys: fantasy fulfilment. Every show is about joining a band or being psychic or winning at sports - and thank GOD not one show is about having a boyfriend or dreaming of marriage or being someguy's property. It's all about ME fullfilment (at least the 12 year-old girl's idea of ME) without the dismissive patriarchal bullshit that's been crammed down little girls' throats for centuries. So nothing blows up and nothing bad ever happens. So what. It's not my taste and I don't expect it to be yours, but why pull down an institution that is devoted to entertaining kids? They never claimed to be moral or god-fearing, they just want their brands protected so parents can buy the latest video without worrying there's a secret porno inside or some heavy message they'll have to explain to their kids. So what. Why do you care? Why don't you spit on someone else's heros and leave my stepdaughter's alone!

Last point builds from there: Who needs your politics? If your idea of screamingly hi-larious entertainment is making fun of tragic people then I have to tell you you're not that funny. You're actually kinda gross. I DO want Disney protected so they CAN instigate their own policies against the Christian Right. I DO want to know what I can expect when I send my kid to a Disney movie, so I don't have to go along and sit through another remake of Freaky Friday. Do you know how many Disney animators packed a bowl at company meetings and then went on to create such peyote inspired flops as Tres Cabilleros? ALL OF THEM! Haven't you ever seen the shot from Alladin where all the clouds are shaped like penises? I'm glad there's a mega-company that is making pro-girl material, and so what if it's silly and obnoxious - like Grand Theft Auto isn't silly and obnoxious? Boy culture has been celibrated so long that little boys never bother to grow up. Why shouldn't my little girl be just as selfish and unrealistic and want to be a psychic in a rockband rather than someone's wife? I'm proud of that. I'm teaching her to be as selfish and unrealistic as I am, but without the guilt.

I'm with Evo on this topic. Although I think fair use is a good thing (checks and balances), I also think the lack of respect for any copyright is what is holding back our own VJ culture. I personally haven't released anything because of it. I'm not paranoid, but it's just not economically feasable to have professional DVDs made up full of my content, at least not economical for a little guy like me. Maybe when a big ol VJ label comes along....

[elbows]

What solution do you suggest though? For people to change their opinions on either side? It wont happen.

So I dont see a solution. People on all sides of all debates should be free to continue to post their opinions. I dont see how that could be changed without damaging vjf far more than a few people leaving.

As for doubting peoples morals here, well what is here? Theres no fixed membership of this community, its fluid. If people get upset or annoyed with something, then fair enough thats your perogative, but please take it for what it is - you disagreeing with the thoughts of some other humans. So the people posted here so the stuff is associated with vjforums, but that doersnt make vjforums the source of any percieved evil.

I dont love many things that humans do. Look at the world, stupid species really. I am frequently annoyed by the opinions of others. But I wont lump them together and label them vjforums, cos they aint.

Having said all that I have left internet communities in the past when theyve started doing my head in, just like the opinions these are individual personal issues.

[elbows]

And in terms of positive things to come out of copyright stuff, the way it looks so far is that laws of the land are not meant for small players like us, so if we want to foster an environment which protects our work, we will probably need to build a system (vvoluntary code to start with) at a grass roots level, that would suceed over the course of years if adopted.

By putting together our own content licensing agreements, along with a system for protecting vjs work, such as vjs signing up to some sort of code like you get with plumbers etc who have some kind of "kite mark of quality".

Hmm its early days for this thought, but I think it could work, long term. Fast forward a few years and assume that VJing is more understood by promoters & club owners, and say there has been some raising of awareness of copyright issues. Well then if there was a "sign of honesty" that vjs could have, a club owner would know that by hiring one of these people that they werent getting some thief who could get them into trouble.

[Rovastar]

I don't beleive that though the copyright laws don't at least try to help *us*. (*US* people who create our own content or only use stuff that is registered and illegally allowed to use.)

In fact all I seeis that the copyright law is not strong enough so that the theives can get away with it if they are small enough be that clubs or VJ's.

But there is no real solution in all this after all I only know so many friend that don't mind going to prision for me.

[holly]

Originally posted by Rovastar
In fact all I seeis that the copyright law is not strong enough so that the theives can get away with it if they are small enough be that clubs or VJ's.
It's like a net. The big fish get caught, while the little ones swim out. It's fair that way. Baby VJs need to start somewhere. By the time you are doing bigger gigs tho, I'd be surprised if the type of sampling you are talking about (2 minutes of a film on invert, followed by 2 more minutes of another movie...) gets you big gigs.

I've seen some techies think they can VJ because they have knowledge of the gear. That's the only time I've seen this sort of "performance" in a big club. It's not what you call bottomfeeding - it's actually sort of the opposite, where a high-end technical crew thinks there is no effort or art involved in the content. They (as I've witnessed) tend to fall out of it about as fast as bottomfeeders once they start to realize there is a lot of work pulling together fresh imagery that works for crowds. I've seen a few of them launch this past year and end up just falling back to maintaining the projectors - which is what they should have done in the first place.

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by holly
It's not what you call bottomfeeding - it's actually sort of the opposite...... I've seen a few of them launch this past year and end up just falling back to maintaining the projectors - which is what they should have done in the first place.

:lol: hah hah haha bigfish vj purgatory :lol:


but seriously, holly's right (about that) rova like u & i said face2face that those types of samplers are gonna get away with it, and that they suck. bad sampler, practice more...

[syzygy]

if people are going to leave the forums because there are some threads with opinions in that they don't like then good riddance to them I say.

To read evomedias posts above, you would think that anyone defending copyright has been mercilessly attacked and hounded off the site.

That is simply not true.

Anyone who has seen things that they don't like, or had points made to them that they don't like, or argued about particular topics, has done so because they have chosen to participate in threads on those topics.

As far as I know, nobody has been victimised because of their views on copyright. If anyone has, they should let the editors know so that we can take action.

If the 'all opinions are valid' approach of VJF doesn't suit you then, by all means, leave. But don't try to claim that it was the fault of people with different opinions to you.

If you don't want to get bogged down in endless arguments about copyright, but you do want to stay on VJF, there is a simple solution - don't participate in the threads on copyright.

In fact, that advice goes for anyone who starts to feel uncomfortable with any heated discussion - just stop posting (maybe even reading) the thread/s in question and enjoy some calmer threads for a while. If anyone tries to carry personal issues to other threads then the editors will take action.

Can everyone please stop building this issue up further and further and calm down a bit. If everyone keeps putting words into everyone elses mouths and assuming the worst about anyone who even mildy disagrees with them then we're going to get nowhere.

Dan.

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by holly(Komoniwannaleia) (Komoniwannaleia)
That being said, and admitting I didn't wait for any of the downloads, the only film I'm familiar with is the Karen Carpenter Story done with Barbie?s. So you take a tragic story and make fun of everyone involved. What a scream. That makes you oh, so, clever to be such a shitty person. When someone famous is so miserable they end up killing themselves - what a riot. Hoo hoo, haw haw. If your idea of screamingly hi-larious entertainment is making fun of tragic people then I have to tell you you're not that funny. You're actually kinda gross.

wait up Komoniwannaleia that forsythe guy HAD NOTHING to do with the carpenters vid which i yawned at too way back when. his stuff is weird too, but not gross, besides i think by now you know that i dont find annorexia, spousal abuse, anytime of personal misfortune or other type of shaudenfraue to be funny at all. im with you on that being gross, and definitley stupid. what i did find funny (please see the Mermaid clip, the negativeland one) is an artist getting verbally abused by a $1000/hr lawyer, taping the conversation, and then remixing it. especially the guy being prtrayed as ariel was classic, with her angry faces and his spew of toxic verbage... that's funny. i also think puns are funny but refrain from them as most people find them annoying. but that's niether here nor there

Originally posted by holly (Komoniwannaleia)
Last point builds from there: Who needs your politics?
well at AVIT i screened my most political thing ever (a 90 minute mashup) it has a guy who re-grows rainforests (yes it can be done, dont believe the hype, it's just gotta get done) and a granma taking cookies out of her built-in solar oven (liooks liek a normal oven until she opens it and the sun pours in!) and i do my best to make these boring things fun to watch... and i get positive feedback from it so i continue.. even a funky mix with those east village garden people, who totally kick ass and make your own city a more hospitable place... so i would say that even you need my politics, just as surely as i need (and appreciate) yours. just like disney, i'm not a hater

Originally posted by holly(Komoniwannaleia)
I'm with Evo on this topic. Although I think fair use is a good thing (checks and balances), I also think the lack of respect for any copyright is what is holding back our own VJ culture. I personally haven't released anything because of it
i dont agree cause thats not what i see. i hav eyet to see here anyone voice an opinion of "lack of respect for any copyright" i see so many times a breakdown of people saying what is right to take (especially in the conjoined dead horse: "fair use" cases) and an overwhelming majority of people who sample (who are vocal at least, cant say nothing forteh lurkers) seem to feel that it is deplorable to play something straight and perhaps even lower, to take stuff from other VJs... then again i heard people telling me that "Graham said that he hates when people play his stuff in their VJ gigs" and so i asked him in brigton about that, especially in the context that i could see using his stuff (i like them theyre nice, havn't mixed with them, but could see it) like for shading and texture in a background or key and he said (if youre here, correct me if i'm wrong) that that was not only cool, but exciting.
what everypne thinks is awful is someone popping in mixmasters (or even the EYEWASH) and pretending its their work. we all agree on this more than we disagree believe me. Komoniwannaleia, i hope that you are refeining more from DVD releases due to the practicality side rather than the fear if it ending up on kazaa or sold on canal street. if/when your full legnth dvd is release, do you really think you'll care if some AVgeek girl in DuBuke gets so turned on by it that she starts mixing on campus; do youthink you'll care if she mixes in some of your disc? im thining youd be happy to know about that (plus if you wanted you can offer some restricted rights along with the sale) and even if you only make $3 from the sale of the disc, if she's got one, chances are at least another 10-30,000 people do as well (and imo $3 per disc sucks,but am willing to bet that NoTV,Moonshi- and the rest may not even come close to that).. someone trying get away with remixing your stuff all night in a club, that's not so cool, but no one thinks it is

in fact ithink im goingto take it uponmyself to start some thread on sampling ethics, and goals. because what i have experienced so far is not only excitement from content creators but an open wilingness to see how we can cocreate a mutually healthy relationship. it really isn't that hard to do (its easier for me meaybe cause now i have some people who make stuff for me to remix as well) especially with the internet. first of all theres stuff liek perlinger who even like if you remix their stuff, to offer that to people for download as well, and rely heavily on the creative commons (?) limited rights.... its out there now, in nascent state and i guess its up to us (samplers) to spell out proper behaviour... (though thank heavens for fair use for the stuff that you want where the owners will not be civil about it)

i wanted to give some examples of people's responses to me wanting to use their work;
an email reply i got from an artist who blew my mind from EFX magazineEFX ROCKs! I was very stoked to be in that mag as I deem it the finest! Nice to meet you,and thanks for all the kind words,it's what makes it all worth it?. anyway,my answer to the artwork Question is "I'd love to hook you up with some imagery" to mix, in exchange for bits of your knowledge.and possibly collaborate on a video piece?. as I am very interested in Video at the moment??time consuming.... in AE as I'm just trying to do simple layer transitions between images, I have that down?.all I ask is that you don't sell my work.if you have the oppertunity to then we can certanly make some sort of deal. I'm into my work getting out there for people to see.

from a filmaker/idol of mine if ofund online after years of drooling over his workDear Lee,
thanks for the letter and praise. Freelancing is a tough business (that's why most ex-filmmakers end up retired in academia) and I support your VJ efforts towards the present day cultures? but it appears your works are part of a world scene (big in Europe) and I wish you all the best in courage that it takes to do the works independently. As for my films or videos being used in your VJ activities, I don't have a problem with that. (Some of the works in fact had been (in times past) incorporated into VJ presentations by others but that was then and now is a different scene. I can send you a rights release if / when (If you decide to buy 16mm film prints, check with me for availability, since some of the prints are in LA, some here on Saturna island, BC.)

it really is that easy.... talk with the people whos stuff yo uidg, let them knwo what you want to do with it.... most often people are very happy and willingto work something out, and very often people only want money to a) send you teh stuff and b) if you want to make it into a DVD and resell it but usually to play it live if they understad what youre doing, they are into it 100%

so maybe if people who are dead afraid of releasing stuff see that there is a general ethics, they will nolonger be afraid of releasing their content and helping this whoel scene grow up


ok on the Dizni issue, i am gonna start a new thread cause it being winter and all i fear it might snowball in and unto itself..
Originally posted by holly (Komoniwannaleia)
Next point, LilCat (fuck the full name thing, I'm a slow typist) what's your beef with Disney?....Disney was one of the first high-profile companies to instigate FULL MEDICAL BENIFITS....Uncle Walt. When the Christian Right ....Disney theme parks for Disney supporting gay relationships...Disney himself...Disney so he hoped they did all boycott ...you need to know that Mickey is Mickey.....Disney channel, but obviously she hasn't....realize that Disney channel is to pre-teen girls.....Why don't you spit on someone else's heros and leave my stepdaughter's alone!
I DO want Disney protected so they CAN instigate their own policies...when I send my kid to a Disney movie...Disney animators packed a bowl at company meetings and then went on ...and so what if it's silly and obnoxious - like Grand Theft Auto isn't silly and obnoxious? Boy culture has been celibrated so long that little boys never bother to grow up.

[holly]

Ok, good points Lil'Cat. I also feel (unlike Evo) that WE are the VJ Community and we contribute by choice to the policies and culture of VJing, not waiting to have it dictated down to us from above or even base what we do on what others have done before. The whole point of VJC/F (besides making up silly names for ourselves) is to find the consesus of VJ ethics/policies and then decide when to go against accepted policy.... I think a sampler ethics thread would be great as long as it can survive the inevitable "all samplers are baby killers" comments. I have 2 samples, both from Prellinger, both legal. I love Prellinger. Honestly I do see the difference between popculture sampling and just sampling cool 3D graphics from movies, but I'm not convinced anyone else would. Maybe I'm too cynical.

But, not releasing DVDs is only because of the expense of the innitial press. The EyeWash DVD has been a good seller, but we certainly haven't covered our expenses. Most sales are via mail order, but we have a few every night at EyeWash. The best part is that we tried to set a standard for artists getting involved in the DVD. Each artist (including the dj/composer) got 50 copies to sell or distribute as they chose. That seriously cut into our ability to sell them at the live events (when all the performers have 50 copies to give away) but what are you going to do? I can't stand it when people come here and ask for submissions for one or two DVDs in return.... That is so lame. We couldn't afford to pay everybody, but if the DVD is valued at $20 then everyone involved got $1000 worth of product.... It's an experiment. Maybe we go broke doing it, but that's what we did. For my stuff, yeah I'd love it if some college girl was remixing me in Nowheresville, Alabama. I want to release my stuff in a mixable format, but for that I'll probably find an investor who is willing to loose the $2000 it costs to press them. Then I could just sell them at like $5 - $10 a pop to make sure everyone gets one and every VJ in the world is slipping me in at some point in the night.... It's not really a profit oriented goal at that point, more of an ego-maniacle goal, but I still wouldn't want anyone to be using it in commercials or something. I'd still want to retain licensing rights....

Meanwhile, please stop calling me Komoniwannaleia. It's only funny when you say it outloud.