the visuals artist as a revolutionary?

[mirabelle]

With interest I hear the positions of different people on the issue of whether visuals should be political or not. I love VJforums and I liked AVIT, but I must admit that I get a bit bored with how apolitical this scene can be...(put me down for the "hippy crap"!).

Stumbled over this interview with Howard Zinn about his new book "Artists in times of war":

**************************************
"I am pointing out the special power of the artist in the world of social struggle, how the artist brings intensity, passion, a spiritual element to the world of ideas. Factual argument has a coldness to it. Art in the service of an important value -- peace, racial equality, social justice -- lends a power which mere words cannot have. It is, in a sense an equalizer, given the enormous power of the Establishment. [...]
I would hope that [the book] would suggest to artists who may hesitate to connect their art with the critical issues of our time -- war, poverty, inequality -- that there is a long and noble tradition, going back to the Greek playwrights of art being used in the service of human rights. I would hope also that it might inspire political activists to think about moving out of their constricted, habitual ways of reaching people, and begin to use their imagination to lend a kind of artistic power to their political activity.

(To read more about Howard Zinn's book "Artists in Times of War" check out Sarah Burton's excellent interview with Zinn and Thom York of the band Radiohead in Resonance Magazine
http://www.resonancemag.com/york_zinn.html)
********************************************

I personally agree with the view that artists can inspire, move and help to transform society.
There may be many ways on HOW to do this and I wonder what other people think, what are these ways?

By the way, has there been any follow up of the "Video Mix Project" (www.vmix.org) that was launched at AVIT?

[vjrei]

Well, as an artist I'm not agree:D

From my point of view in place of showing "what not to do" I rather show "what to do then". But that is my case, I would be very bored if I go to a place and I see "the artistic representation" of what I just saw on CNN.

About VJ being political?

VJ is a "real time video mixing based on music" where is the political side of that?

Is like U2, they choose to be political oriented but that doesn't mean Depeche Mode have to fallow that path too.

I do not like to see all VJ performances incapsulated in a topic. If some VJ performer is good working with politically oriented footage that is ok, as long he does it with talent.

In my case I just want to represent the music of the DJ with what ever I have in my hands, the topic is choosen by the DJ, not me. I'm a musician doing visuals, then, I represent sounds with shapes and colors.

Now, politically, I see that in a few years the world is gonna turn in to a very heavy current of "old fasion love", people are gonna be so sick of wars, sensasionalism, protest, polution and materialism. That they are gonna turn all the way around, specially with the media so saturated of such bad energy.

The world is gonna turn in to be naive, simple, colored (not gay) and all the elements that are part of PEACE, not only talking about peace as a political tool, no. People are gonna dive in to it, TV shows are gonna change, News channels will have to change their point of view. Action movies will have no bullets any more. I see the world is gonna leave the dark age we live in today.

In my opinion, I choose to show that way rather than keep talking what you already know is there.

[WordVirus23]

the addage in the news business is: If it Bleeds, It Leads. will not change here in the US. these are well established (monopolized) industries. if you've checked the price of airing commercials on TV lately, yeah, well, these people aren't going belly up any time soon (sadly) Hollywood with no bullets? LOL wow... LOL that's funny. our culture will feed the world until its fat and bloated like Gluttony from the movie Seven. maybe after like 7/8ths of the population have died off, then we can talk about a nice pleasant world. :)

cheeriness from
..james...

Originally posted by vjrei
News channels will have to change their point of view. Action movies will have no bullets any more. I see the world is gonna leave the dark age we live in today.

In my opinion, I choose to show that way rather than keep talking what you already know is there.

[littlecatalyst]

rei rei rei
1. did u read the quote? ((bravo btw mirabella)) i dont realy see that as being exclusively samples from cnn (not that they cant have a place in political work imo)

Originally posted by mirabelle
..interview with Howard Zinn about his new book "Artists in times of war":
**************************************
"I am pointing out the special power of the artist in the world of social struggle, how the artist brings intensity, passion, a spiritual element to the world of ideas....(del)...Art in the service of an important value -- peace, racial equality, social justice -- lends a power which mere words cannot have.********************************************


in fact i think that really describes your futopia, which i do hope we can acieve (with a few add/delets i guess as it would be consensus based right-- besides which i do have a few ??'s there..... like

Originally posted by vjrei
world is gonna turn in to be naive, simple, colored (not gay) pardon? maybe its in the grammer but what are you implying? also: depeche mode was actually political from the get-go, seriously, weren't they total communistas and have even more songs about marx than about s&m ? and lastly who's quote is that you are quoting about what a vj is cause i'd like to go and kick 'em in the balls. that is not my defn' at all... i am no slave to the dj man, i have a dj i play with who follows me as much as i follow her... you could really say its based just as much on the visuals inside one's mind while tripping, cause the people who did it before the people who did it before us were just trying to copy that, and since we came from them....

so rather than be a slave to a nightclub id rather avoid those kinds of shows (nothing against them if its your thing) and get something thats inside me out. and if thats a passionate play with the images that play out MY agenda (and look 'really kewel' according to the kidz) and better still someway that i could discuss the things that i believe are at heart of this debate about making the wolrd better (as opposed to just seeing what we already know sucks-- nothing really wrong with that if its done well, and even better of its done with some humour). for me theres a point to not blowing people over with it, you gotta be subtle, its ocmmunication, right? people dont want to be told what to think or what to do, so you gotta be sneaky with it, using allegories and reshooting things but with your perspective.... but imHo its definitley worth doing

disclaimers:
(of course theres not only that in the realm of vjrelated art, theres perfectly valid art in vjland that is about stuff that is not at all political, formalist stuff, cgi dazzlers and all and no one is better than any of the others... (maybe))

((and of course not everyone in vjland is an Artist, nor wishes to be one, some being craftspeople think that artists are too out there, some just dont like the artists word, and of course we can't forget our beloved wizards hackers buccaneers and other assorted phreaks)) <== some of these like to be political, too

[vjrei]

WordVirus23

Do not make fun so opendly about something just because you do not see that happening. Of course is not going to hapen next year, may be in the mittle of the next decade or something.

The media is so saturated from the same thing again and again that a reaction to the opposite way will happen some how.

I can see tiny thing hapening here and there in the cultural level. Some expresions that until 1 year ago wouldn't succed.

I may see some 80's air coming back but like Paula Abdul feeling or like the corniest over exploted look. The world is gonna divide between the bad ones and the good ones and the good one are gonna take the control just because they got tired. What is gonna triger that? I do not know. But people are geting tired, no one trust the media and specially people are learning to question leadirship and very soon the system itself.

About Depeche Mode, you were right, they were very politically oriented in the 80's, but that is what most bands do to create a name any way.

[wallnoise]

The 50's are being replayed now,
so remain patient,
the 60's should follow.

[unjulation]

p.w.e.i.

there is a long and noble tradition of the artist and theatrics, of whatever kind, that inevstes its time in expoloreing the human condition, personaly i have spent to much time expoloring those spaces and trying to bring them within the space we work on so ill let you youngsters do that, i dont think you should within the "genral" space we work within, tho there are plentay of partys that would alow and enbrace them but if your going to talk to the masses do it in a way that they understand and will take on bord - this does not nesesiraly mean any perticular stance and veiw point

"if the truthe can be told so that it can be understood it will be belived"
terence Mckenna

now to me this is what all artist per-say are after, the holy grail of it all as it were, like the ultermait mix so to speek

ware this perticual understanding takes you, aint got a clue ;)

[julez]

Originally posted by mirabelle
I love VJforums and I liked AVIT, but I must admit that I get a bit bored with how apolitical this scene can be

hah uve gotta be kidding me. As u can probably see this sight is chocked with people voicing their political opinions. Just read some of the previous threads where we seem to be drawn into slandering matches about the legallity of bush's election.

Anyway i think that how political a vj wants to be is up to them. No vj is ever a slave to the dj (at least no one i know is) because they are the ones who create and play their own content. Maybe it is related to the djs set but it is not directed by it. The same as bands some vjs are more political than others

[neoteo]

im sorry but i can almost see this as an old story ...

i put my self in 100 years from know .. and all this VJ doing a saparete job .. being a diferent person ... from de DJ ... this really sounds like old fashion to me ...

one man job ... for sure ... i put money on it ...

but i also see that .. the same way we can still go to opera

we can still see live VJ separete person .. for the rest of our lifes



going to the topic ....


as an artist .. i like to belive in a global human city ...
we are here talking like we live in the same street and meet in the park to talk ...

as the years online pass .. the next generations will find ridiculus that we have this small planet sapareted ...

this is my vj political side ....

[Anyone]

we need to make a difference here between political and revolutionary...

I'm sorry but adding samples of american presidents in your visuals sets may be political, but it ain't revolutionary, it's actually quite conformist, VJ have been doing that since the start of VJing with EBN in the early 90's. do your homework.

Also, I've said a few times in other threads, but there are different degrees of political involvement, than the blatant and often naive bush bashing.

even choosing NOT to be political is a political stance.
I find making purely hedonistic visuals really politically involving...
first of all because I have to constantly justify this to the so-called VJ political mainstream in the UK.
but mainly because In a world of global corporate emperialism on one side and international terrorist networks on the other,
saying it is still possible to break away from this and enjoy the luxurious escape of a good saturday's binge is VERY political, even revolutionary...

people like Ray-V, VJing in parties in TelAviv (Israel) while a religious war is going on outside should simply be applauded, right now. You go girl !

"you say you want a revolution?
well you know, we all want to change the world
but if you're talking about destruction
dont you know that you can count me out" John Lennon

Ne1

[littlecatalyst]

Oli you start strong and end strong but what's with the middle?

i'm glad you want to look at the difference between political and revolutionary and its fine to split them if you like.... maybe even important-- but why is it that anytime we bring something up we smash it to the lowest common denominator immediately while bashing it?

i.e. it has already been said that there is more to political work than images of politicians and the twin towers.... (while, yes EBN did it waybackwhen and many others who didnt get the credit they did, like Art Jones and the Channel Zero crew (who later became GNN) STill what was done, and what can still be done in that vein is up for grabs....

i think maybe the terms have to be looked at more closely, as well as to whome......i would say that what you describe (the politrics of no politics) may be revolutionary in VJland but may have no revolutionary ability umongst the spectators.. so

we have to look at what is it that you are trying to do, be a revolutionary VJ with a new style and something to say about VJing, gonna revolutionize the industry....

....or be a revolutionary who uses the mixer as one of the tools that they have available to get stuff out....

and if you think that the stuff getting out has to be shots of Bush and Bagdad you are Soooooooo wrong!

Rei said that he woudl rather project the nice peaceful pretty world. ok then HOW? what are you doing about it? how are you shoing these alternatives? what way do you use them in counterpoint? More interestingly to me, how do you conceal them so that people dont think your soapboxing.... what do you do to the images or rhythms or other layers to sorta not get people all upity,

how far can you take your message?
how literal?

do you feel that it works well when (like Unj) you just show them whats going on? or do you think there is a way to get some polemic in there as well

and lastly, how much is too much? obviously a full 3 hour set about money alternatives earthships and growdomes might be a bit much... (though i once did get a chance to do an entire set remixing the companie's wind generators... that was cool)

oli i love you as much as i love hedonism, but i think EBN is even younger than hedonism. by a couple of thousand years....

[holly]

Firstly, you have no right to tell me what I should or should not present in my art.

Secondly, my political agenda is female supremacy, NOT equality. Men should be collared and submissive. Men crave discipline and power, it is their weakness and their strength. They are only truely satisfied when they are being controlled, therefore all men must be controlled or they will become unhappy and disrupt society. Women must seize the responsibility of absolute control. The world will suffer until this view is universally recognized and adopted.... Will you defend my "social responsibility" to rescue all men from the inability to control themselves? Will you support my art when it expressly states that the absence of female control over men is the root of all evil in this world?

Why are you so niave as to think that the absence of "war" means everyone is happy and equal? Surely this is a man's point of view: "I hear no complaint therefore nothing is wrong". War occures when one power heirachy resists another - when there is "peace" it is simply because the dominant power completely controls all others. If anything, the voice of the artist is MORE important during the time of peace because that is when the voices of dissent are NOT heard.

edited to add:
After reading the interview you recommend I hope you understand than Zinn is creating one of his own "fictions" by claiming that John Lennon had any political morality towards war, inequality, or society before he met his dominant mate Yoko Ono. She on the other hand, had been an established politically-active artists for years before meeting Lennon. Once again, a male (Zinn) is re-writing history in his own image while omitting the truth. Lennon was nothing without Ono, and he was the first to admit it. Her controlling temperment allowed Lennon to be the conduit of their message. She used his commercial success to push her agenda, he used her strength to define their moral position.

[Lucidhouse]

I'm not into any of the isms...I try and inspire, energise people with my work, mainly using positive imagery...nothing to conceptual...best effect I can hope for is that it could be a catalyst to awakening people into using their incredible potential.

morris

[Anyone]

What I'm saying is, not all revolutions are political

oh and I'm also saying that as an artist,
you have a voice to express an opinion,
but you have no power to make that point of view a political fact.

maybe you're lucky and a few people will listen
and go on the streets and quote you,
but to the people that matter, the ones with real power
you're mostly a threat
maybe you'll get shot also for stirring it up too much...

having said that,
I'd rather be a living anecdote than a dead revolutionary

I'd rather be Jimmy Cliff than Bob Marley,
rather Eric Clapton than Jimi Hendrix
rather Jacky Chan than Bruce Lee
rather Mandela than malcom X

what's in the middle? day to day enjoyment of life with my dominent girlfriend...yeah baby

Ne1

added after:
Little cat: one of the most political artist I know is Andy Warhol. he criticised consumer society by giving himself completely up to it. you dont need to oppose yourself to something to present a critical standpoint. coining "15 minutes of fame" how revolutionary is that? anyhow. he still got shot...

[zap25]

Upto now I've only spread one Political message:

I am your leader, bow to me.

Because I know what's Good (tm) for you people.
I know what's Right (tm).

[Anyone]

:not worth


are we going round in circles again...?

[KillingFrenzy]

"you say you want a revolution?
well you know, we all want to change the world
but if you're talking about destruction
dont you know that you can count me out" John Lennon

------

Don't forget the whispered, very creepy "IN" that Lennon includes after the "out".

Lennon was very much expressing his own confusion/frustration in that song, and his own mixed feelings about direct action if it involved violence. Saying your "in" under your breath was a much more powerful statement than saying you were "out" in full voice.

"I'd rather be Jimmy Cliff than Bob Marley,
rather Eric Clapton than Jimi Hendrix
rather Jacky Chan than Bruce Lee
rather Mandela than malcom X"

Most of these examples didn't die because of their beliefs (except Marley who probably died because he wouldn't get medical treatment). In the case of Mandela, he miraculously survived incarceration in spite of them.

I understand how an artist that stays alive can have a powerful effect on the world. BUT, I don't see how Jackie Chan has had any effect at all. In fact, his early shenanigans fed many stereotypes (watch Cannonball Run) and his later movies have done little to shake them. Sure he's "fun" and a virtuoso clown, but so were Amos and Andy and even Louis Armstrong. Was Bob Hope better for society for having served as an establishment pawn, but producing quality comedy. What about Leni Riefenstahl? Beautiful cinematography of vicious killers (sharks, or Nazis). Finding your sense of self in your art, and sticking to it is part of the path of any artist. I'm convinced that being true to your own beliefs, and carrying them in your art is a path to better work as an artist. I think Lennon chose to accentuate the positive aspects of his intention, and it seems to me that many of us (especially the Plurry raver types) choose to follow this same path. But, giving the audience the glimpse of the choices they have to make, as Lennon did by showing his own conflicting voice is a way to give your message further depth.
Showing the shiny, happy people seems akin to the fluffy side of Christianity that is abounding with hypocrisy. I'm all for individual accountability, and that does not come about through brainwashing for any cause. It comes through individual knowledgabilty and responsibility for one's actions and the offshoots thereof.
I'm less convinced that projecting utopia will manifest it.

[holly]

Tee hee.

Well, here we all are again being "political". Thanks Mirabella! The truth is VJs don't have to show political art; they just entertain these hot topic threads on VJF.

How many (working) VJs are deleberately a-political? Are non-profit VJs all pro-political? Has kapitolism choked the voice of protest in the throats of artists..., or are amatures just moralizing to justify a rather expensive knob-twiddly hobby...? Well. Maybe we should conduct a poll? I've tried like three times to create a poll but I just don't get it. When does the interface change to question format? I check the box, but nothing changes. Is it a JAVA thing? Lame Mac-ness?

I honestly think that Mirabella's goal wasn't necessarily to make all VJs show political content. Actually, it was more like she was encouraging political (well, hippie) types to become VJs....

Now there's a goal! recruitment!

What everyone else here is pointing out though is that "being political" doesn't always mean tree-hugging and Earthmothering. Are you also asking monotheistic I-AM-THE-ONE-types to become VJs? What if my politics don't agree with your self-professed "hippie crap"? You know, Marxism specifically denounces gays. It's in the manefesto. Karl Marx thought that only rich tzars could possibly be gay. He was an ignorant man living in a niave time ? obviously tzars were the only ones in Russia who could afford to live a fabulous "out" lifestyle, but plenty of gays were the "blue collar" workers he (another rich kid who spent his whole life in academia) claimed to represent ? but it's still in the manefesto.... So what's the point?

KillF beat me to it, but here goes anyway:
Watch LENI RIEFENSTAHL. She made moving, empowering imagery for the nazi party. Did she show Jews and Gypsies (and gays) getting tossed into gaschambers? Nah. She showed happy smiling blonde people ? and just ask Mattel about how many more happy smiling blonde Barbie?s sell than jappy wire-haired Rachel dolls with big noses.... Yes VJing with fast imagery can sell your political agenda, but can it tell the truth? VJing is not an in-depth documentary. There is no attempt to explain the images you are seeing (and not seeing). There is no voice of reason, only compelling images. Show a series of parades and pep rallies and you have Triumph of the Will. Show a family hugging on television and you have Republicans defining a family as a patriarch who owns an unemployable slave wife and 2.5 ignorant children sheltered from any clue of world reality ? meanwhile, the Democrats are trying to pass off tarnished liberalism by hiding inequality behind politically correct double speak.... "What if we don't call it marriage, then everyone is equal, it's just that some are less equal...." Pee-yuke! If I show anti-Bushie visuals is everyone going to think I'm a Democrat? If I show an American flag does everyone think I'm pro-war? If I show hippie protesters spitting on cops am I pro-cop or pro-protester?

Mirabella? How are you political in your VJ? Can you give us some examples of what you've used or what you would like to see used? You are a bit vague on WHAT exactly IS political content?

[eXhale]

Originally posted by KillingFrenzy
I'm less convinced that projecting utopia will manifest it. "One does not become enlightened by imaging figures of light, but by making the Darkness conscious." - Jung

:o

[littlecatalyst]

what KF said and then Ex quoted:
about projecting = (or not =) manifestation.... for me, what i have seen so far in life is that belief leads to manifestation. that may sound pretty qwack new age, but i dont care, i have seen it now going on for the past 10 years..... everything from visualizaion excercises becoming brick an dmortar realities to images of self.... if you believe it, it will eventually come true.
(to diverge a little bit, its like the mystics say: that whatever you think [of yourself and your environment] the cosmos will create, only to confirm your thoughts, so if you walk around all day saying "i'm a loser, people cheat me" then the cosmos will bring about a bunch of people to cheat you and say "yes you're right, you are a loser" au contraire if you think you are in a magic flow and everything is coming together the cosmos will hand you that situation... ok so it is a bit flakey, but the bottom line is that there is this going on as well.... (according to quaballa, the gnostics, and many other sects thorugh time)
so, if one belives this, and sets out to create alternatives that people can believe in, then those will eventually become real

ok just one peeps perspective....

and still what Holly said is still bang-on, somewhat like the questions i asked before.... how do you do it without looking like Lenni or without being didactic... how do we achieve this

and is this unlike anyother thing we try to show? are we not all aware of the subtleties that are important even when mixing two cgi abstracts? why should it be any different? ok sure if you are in teh middle of 100,000 people chanting and carrying signs you may not need to be quite as covert,but what about in an art house party? how do you do it so that you arenot badgering people? how do you do it so that the work on the screen is not attributed to the VJ playing rather than to the context?

is allusion a tool to use? allegory? symbolism? parralell examples?

for me it is a wonderful show of diversity yo have the 21st centutry femme politics, the tree huggers (though i guess i'm lumped into that category while even Rova knows im a bigger capitalist than him, just ecoanarchocapitalism, thats all), the anti-corps, the anarchists, the antiTrades, we still have a lot of antiRacism here..... all of it. and maybe the politics are inparallel or maybethey oppose each other and it will be time to get a dialectical solution, but the diversity of politics makes this exciting! just as the diversity of opinions on teh issue make VJland a fun place to be...

[Anyone]

"the brighter the light, the stronger the shadow" - I Forget who

the topic here is revolution. I agree with most of the comments above.
I think it's just important to remember that if someone wants to get into this sort of thing, not just political shit, but stuff that really works, then just be ready to take the bashing that comes with it, and maybe die for your beliefs.

what's also important to remember is that swift change can cause alot of pain for the most part, people dont change so fast, it takes generations for real change to take place. look at the Berlin wall...

it's just my opinion that things are generaly going better.
just really slowly. life is a whole lot better than in midevil times,
much better than before the scientific revolution, better than before the industrial revolution, slightly better than before the information revolution.

the only problem now it seems we are so conscious of the social differences, of world poverty, urban crime etc. that we actualy feel they're bigger than before. they're not, they're smaller. we just so conscious of the details, that we feel guilty if we're not miserable. but that's just media crap...

dont worry. be happy (for a change)
Ne1

[eXhale]

i don't like the word "political", for me it's like sheep herding, or applying your reality model on everyone. "politics" are only the ripple at the top of much larger social changes. the only reason of governement is to create the illusion of order and slow down changes. but i don't know what words to use instead so i shall quote this one...

at a time when we are unconsciously driving ourselves toward annihilation, saying you don't see the point in using your art/life to cause changes is like saying you don't see the point in trying to heal yourself when you get a deadly illness: it may feel hopeless but trying seems the only thing worth doing (and don't say you tried if your only idea of "political" is CNN).

self-proclaimer entertainers are not neutral in any way, their role in the system is to make sure the sleepers stay asleep and to deliver them projected fantasies so that they feel more disconnected from their own emotions (ie "happier").

being "political" doesn't mean being depressing. people get depressed because they are disempowered and repress/deny uncomfortable thoughts. they think they can't do anything about their life and the world around them (sounds familiar with this thread...), and indeed this is true as long as they put off their responsibility on politicians and ignore the shadow of their inner world... awareness is not depressing, it's empowering.

i also strongly disagree with this "need to escape". our mind is always directed away from the reality by the media but our unconscious knows what's going on because it's not being filered... denial does not make anyone happier... dreams and nightmares have more to teach us than any TV channel.

anyway to go back to the original subject...

it's interesting that thom york mentions on the interview that it's more difficult to be subversive in music nowadays because everything is much more tightly controlled. VJing does not have this kind of filtering and yet most VJs just don't see the potential of their art and instead just replicate what they know from MTV, for example smiling top models having "fun" (is it what you mean by positive images, rei?)

when you think about it, most people have never seen anything on this medium which has not been produced by corporations. even apparently subversive hollywood movies provide only a sanitized version of an idea which has already been growing for a long time in the 'underground' (i read a book published in 1988 about the idea of living in virtual reality, and it goes so much deeper than the matrix). so what are we waiting for? do we need to have a tightly-controlled VJing industry before we start using our potential as a revolt against the industry?

[eXhale]

Originally posted by Anyone
the only problem now it seems we are so conscious of the social differences, of world poverty, urban crime etc. that we actualy feel they're bigger than before. they're not, they're smaller. we just so conscious of the details, that we feel guilty if we're not miserable. but that's just media crap...read statistics instead of making them up, the difference between the riches and the poor keep on increasing every day. every time the western world offer 'help' for third-world countries, it is tied with obligations to further privatize their resources. in other words, we steal money from poor people through economic competition and then buy the natural resources of these people through "charity". and then we wonder why the situation gets worse?

and what about the earth anyway? no forms of utopia is possible on a destroyed planet... here's a bit of reality for ya:

in the next 60 seconds:

- 51 acres of tropical forests will be destroyed.
- 35,000 barrels of oil will be consummed.
- 50 tons of fertile soil will be washed or blown off cropland.
- 12,000 tons of carbon dioxide will be added to the atmosphere.

in the next 60 minutes:

- 1,692 acres of productive dry land will become desert.
- 1,800 children will die of malnutrition and hunger
- 120 million dollars will be spent for military expenditures
- 55 people will be poisoned by the pesticides they use; 5 will die.
- 60 new cases of cancer will be diagnosed in the USA alone

in the next 24 hours:

- over 230,000 babies will come to life
- 25,000 people will die of water shortage or contamination.
- 10 tons of nuclear waste will be generated by 350+ nuclear plants
- 250,000 tons of sulfuric acid will fall as acid rain
- 60 tons of plastic packaging will be dumped into the sea
- almost 5 species of life will become extinct

"don't worry be happy" is for the lemmings...

ps: ok this was a bit :-offtopic

[Anyone]

Originally posted by eXhale
at a time when we are unconsciously driving ourselves toward annihilation, saying you don't see the point in using your art/life to cause changes is like saying you don't see the point in trying to heal yourself when you get a deadly illness: it may feel hopeless but trying seems the only thing worth doing (and don't say you tried if your only idea of "political" is CNN).

if I'm terminaly ill, don't you dare take away my morphine...

[Anyone]

Originally posted by eXhale
read statistics [...]

in the next 60 seconds:

- 51 acres of tropical forests will be destroyed.
- 35,000 barrels of oil will be consummed.
- 50 tons of fertile soil will be washed or blown off cropland.
- 12,000 tons of carbon dioxide will be added to the atmosphere.

[...]


Like I said, one of the downturns in the information revolution is that we are too well informed of the details (wrong or right) in our daily lives and society.

if we look at the big picture, we are making enormous progress

let's think of the class divides 1000 years ago
let's think of the concepts of health and cleanlyness 500 years ago
let's think of our knowledge of the micro and macro cosmos 300 years ago
let's thinks of the time it took to cross the ocean 200 years ago
let's think of children working in coal mines 150 years ago
let's think of women's right to vote 100 years ago
let's think of racial inequalities 50 years ago

let's think of the possibilities to VJ at all 30 years ago...

I'm telling you things are getting better
smile, it makes you feel good, and look even better...

Ne1

[eXhale]

i could get into each of these points but i don't think i'll waste my time. it's easy to see some small 'progress' by looking just in the past 1000 years, western culture had already been fucking things up for 10'000 years and it was already a mess (today the mess is more hidden -- cleanliness uh?). maybe you need to do a bit of research on how primitive cultures used to live before they were crushed. and remember... "who controls the present controls the past".

(i find it ironic anyway that you consider the 12,000 tons of carbon dioxide added to the atmosphere every minute a "detail", and that you then praise the "health" of modern society.)

sorry if i bothered someone's sleep, don't worry you'll forget all about this tomorrow.

[sleepytom]

i don't se how an artist can be apolitical - politically niave prehapse but apolitical is impossable.

if an artist thinks he can avoid politics by showing only nice positive images he is missing the point.

selecting your imagry at all is a political choice - if you are mearly trying to be inoffencive then you are simply bending the political view of your screen to fit the target audiance (what doesn't offend the club market could easly piss off people at an arts festival or school fate - pillman anyone...)

so we are left with the question of how overt your message should be and again this depends on the context.
if you overplay your message in the wrong context then you'll alianate people - if your too subtle they won't get it. but your primary aim as an artist is to be awair of the context your work is to be shown in and moddify its content to give the same meaning in diffrent contexts.

<example>
I have some footage of cars - nice high res stuff showing closeups of wheels, spoilers, modded exhausts etc etc - i play this footage in the context of a load of envioronmental theamed stuff - global warming etc etc - thus the car imagry is politisied and shows my hatred for the automobile.

I could use the exact same clip in a diffrent context (maybe some street racing footage and motorsport cutup) the meaning of the clip is totaly changed and it becomes a glorification of the motor car and the boyracer culture that surrounds it.
</example>

i would not use the clip in its second context as i don't wish to promote the motorcar - this is a political decision and it will cost me money.
some people will hold diffrent views to me and make the reverse decision

ultimatly this is true of all clips - you have to decide if they are appropreate for the target audiance and if they give a message that you are happy to pass on to people. - quite what this message is will depend upon who is in the audiance.

<example2>
i know people (hippys) who think that genral eastern religeons (buddisum, hindu, khrisna etc etc) are "cool" and that iconic images from these relegions are "positive" - i have to point out that this is mearly the perception of a middle class white hippy and that a young hindu girl facing an arranged marriage may well have a diffrent perspective making these images not positive icons of a new age but symbols of system that she despises.
</example>

i guess what i'm trying to say is that we all need to be awire of what we are showing to people and that people who seek to be politically neutral or unoffensive need to be even more awair of there audiance than thouse of us that have a definate message.

[holly]

eX, are you suggesting we show statistics? I really don't want my VJ to have the turn-off of a guilt-kiosk. I tried using "slogans" in VJ and I didn't like the results.... Besides, I hate the idea of complex issues being stripped down to overly simplistic sound-bites. Going down your list, I'm thinking I'm going to have a hardtime getting an emotional hook from blowing topsoil and carbon monoxide. I also am not sure how announcing statistics in my set will prevent cancer being diagnosed in people.... I don't see the direct connection in the number of cancer cases and bad ecology.... Which is better: showing rainforests collapsing or showing brazillian farmers growing tofu beans? At Thanksgiving should I show anti-tofurky? slogans because tofu beans are the number one crop in Brazil? Baad Vegitarians! BAAAD! It's YOUR fault that the rainforests are dissapearing! Eat US beef instead!

Promoting a positive image is IMO the correct route to grab clubbers' eyes and minds. Vision is programming even more than sound. Reenforcing positive behaivior is far better than showing negative imagery of collapse and degradation. My message is empowering for both genders, why should I even acknowledge that most people are lost, that men are out of control because women are told not to punish them, inspite of the inborn female instinct to control and influence men? I didn't create that system, although the error of it seems obvious! Punters can compare my utopian imagery with their own pitiful and unfulfilling existance. I'd rather show positive strong women and happily submissive males than show scenes of Halle Berry getting smacked around by Laurence Fishburne.... Add to that shots of OJ Simpson murdering Nichole and guess what: I'm a racist, not a female supremist. Showing what NOT to do is too vague, and leaves the solutions up to the punter. Isn't that how we got in this mess in the first place? Besides, exploiting victims is NOT at the heart of my philosophy.

Is anyone else turned off by the fact that the media portrays gays as either wise-cracking effiminate hairdressers or victims of bashings? No wonder there is so much inequality! Show the negatives only and people will try to find their own conclusions (gays are silly and fey, and eventually someone will beat them up for it: truth or propaganda?). Show the honest truth and people will accept it and see what is wrong in the real world. I want punters complaining that the real world doesn't live up to my vision, then finding ways to change that within their own lives.

There was a thread a long long time ago:
Subliminal Messages in your Mix (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1036&highlight=subliminal)

also:
BrainWashing Techniques (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1463&highlight=subliminal)

I'm wondering how this thread is really any different. Is attempting to influence unsuspecting people to your doctrine really a responsibility for artists or is it just another ego-power-trip so artists can claim they are an important influence on society?

Besides, I post my female superiority agenda everywhere, here on VJF, everytime I open my mouth. I live by example ? at least I try. But there is more to me than just female superiority! I have a visual skill that doesn't necessarily need my philosophy to be good. Sure sometimes I'm too lazy to be everyman's mommy and tell him what to do, but when I see a man out of control because he is disreguarding female authority, and especially if he tries to project that infantilism and lack of self-control towards me, I do everything in my power to curb his behaivor and show him the consequences. It's my responsibility as a woman to do so, NOT my responsibility as an artist.

[holly]

:P I think you might be wasting your breath using the female examples Olli and Tom. eX comes from a country where women were forbidden from voting in OUR lifetimes. When did women get the vote in Switzerland, eX? 1975, was it...?

[eXhale]

Does it matter? If the Swiss governement represented my views, it would self-dissolve.

[holly]

:D

[Anyone]

Originally posted by holly
Promoting a positive image is IMO the correct route to grab clubbers' eyes and minds. Vision is programming even more than sound. Reenforcing positive behaivior is far better than showing negative imagery of collapse and degradation.

yay for positive constructivism!
for every bad thing happening in this world, I can show you a good one.
truly depends on focus.

Originally posted by holly
I'm wondering how this thread is really any different. Is attempting to influence unsuspecting people to your doctrine really a responsibility for artists or is it just another ego-power-trip so artists can claim they are an important influence on society?

like that: BAM! another blow on the human ego: not at the centre of the uniververse, not direct decendents of gods but of monkeys, not masters of our minds but of slaves to our desires, now for VJs : not centre of the political stage... :P

Originally posted by holly
I live by example ? at least I try. But there is more to me than just female superiority! [...] but when I see a man out of control because he is disreguarding female authority, and especially if he tries to project that infantilism and lack of self-control towards me, I do everything in my power to curb his behaivor and show him the consequences. It's my responsibility as a woman to do so, NOT my responsibility as an artist.

oouhhhaa... hhissss... bad...! ;)

hey you should try hanging out with latinos or other matriarchical societies,
you dont need to impose your views there, they're already assimilated and accepted in their daily lives...

Ne1

[Anyone]

Originally posted by eXhale
"don't worry be happy" is for the lemmings...


well, from sleepy's post, it seems it's the political VJs that are the lemmings,
if it's impossible to be apolitical, that's what I want to do...
not follow the trend.

hey look: I'm being subversive by NOT being political !!!
look ma, no message :P :D

when I want to be creative I VJ
when I want to be political I go and vote

Ne1

note of reconciliation:
when I really want to be political, I DON'T vote... :help::crazyeyes

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by Anyone
hey you should try hanging out with latinos or other matriarchical societies,you dont need to impose your views there, they're already assimilated and accepted in their daily lives...


yeah.... so long as their mommas are in earshot.

are you sure you would feel this way Oli, if you weren't a guy but a hot girl? cause ive been around the block a little anbd that just made me laugh. holly at AVit let's go to the mission and see how many times in one hour you are treated with the repsect of a matriarchal society.. ((ps i do actually feel that even calling anything we have in this day and age matriarchal is quite insulting.... even in matrelineal societies that still exist (like hassidic jews) the patronizing and partiarchical power issues are still there.... so even if the mama is the strong one in the house, even if she and her sisters are around all the time.... tat does not actually make it matriarchal

[littlecatalyst]

#1 insult i see hewn about here when someone is not in agfreement with others is Ego..... oh thats what egotistical VJS do, oh thats just an egocentric..... gimme a break! to begin with we all have egos, get over it.

2nd, it is not an ego driven thing to want to make the place you live (gender wise, planet wise....) a better place. yes positive examples work better than egatives, we are all quite aware of that.... though other things can be done well as well, its just a littel more difficult to use the negative stuff without it becoming instantly cliche...... but it is not at all center of the universe, me me me...... shit, do you think Goya did all his paintings there a) to start a war and become real famous b) to get laid more often pf c) because it was something he couldnt shake.... after seeing such massacres i bet you would be affected too. maybe not if you choose voting/not voting as a way to be political. but i still have hope for you oli. but alls i can say, worldwise, is that youre right littel things do improve with time, but other just look like that, some things never change and some have been getting much much worse. <== unfortunately some of which areourlifesupport system on this planet, but dont worry be happy...

but more importantly, what about tomorrow..... we are about to enter the age of teh mixtape (mixdisc?) within a few years by kazaa or through teh stores the kids are going to be dimming the dorm lights, hittingteh bongs, and watching out stuff. what do you want to show them?? (perhaps there will be people who want the soma to just relx after a hard day, but ) I personally will not be satisfied making stuff like the vj discs taht are out there now because once its being played on a home computer/entertainment system the rules go out the window-- i no longer have to worry about what little suzy can or cant handle cause of the e she ate, and i dont even have to have a straight music format (hell no i plan on having lots of mashu up breaks!!!) so what i am trying to say here is that within a few years we will haveteh ability to mix exactly what we want.... and at that point peraps debated liek this will be eveb more important, how do we get these mesages out.....

if you want no message thats fine your perogative, but dont try to pass that off as revolutionary, that wont last long....

[Amukidi]

And bear in mind that not every message must be blatant and in your face - "Listen to the quiet voice!. Nothing bores me more that the statement of the bleeding obvious!

[littlecatalyst]

exaxclty john (though *sometimes( a club over the head is the right blunt instrumnet, but muchmore rare)
i woudl much rather get away from the its a good idea/its a bad idea debate

and get into the meat & potatoes of it (or tofu & potatoes for holly) lets look at what works and what doesnt..... also as there is i believe a sisterhood of sorts umongst the issues, i think it woudl be great to encourage people a swell to express what is it that they are doing... what issues, what causes, what politics (or no politics as it may be).....
also stylistically, and formally, what works, content wise what is too much, what techniques arethere to veil teh issiue(s) a but, make them more paletable. where do we see examples of the stuff that gets us off....
and, venues for this type of stuff.... either real or virtual.....
all of this i want to know...

if you think its useless to even think in these terms, politics and being revolutionary, sure debate that, its a free internet, but if you think that is a positive addion to this thread, think about it some more...

Viva La.....

[Anyone]

VJing swings both ways, wether you like it or not.

Vjing is not political, VJs are (some are)

I'm just at the other end of the spectrum
you stay at your end, that's fine, makes for variety
good for freedom of choice?

I'm not into reminding people their life is crap
if their life is crap they know it already thanks very much

Vjing is (also) about reiterating good vibes,
having fun and all that
if it worked for Andy, it'll work for me

for the Vj establishment of the moment
being apolitical may be a revolutonary thought
may or may not, i'm not really fussed

ne1

[Amukidi]

I think what I am trying to say is that there is so often no dynamic involved. On another forum where I frequent, there is a "Fundamentalist Marxist" - fundamentalist in the respect that he will not waver from the party line one millimetre. Every time he "opens his mouth" its a full shouted message. However he's very commmitted to the "stop the war" peeps and does a lot of sterling work in helping organise stuff (such as the video wall in Trafalgar square). Now (and I am playing Devil's Advocate here) if we are to be entirely fair about this, for the sake of political balance and to preserve "Freedom of speech" would it not be right to also embrace right wing politics? Who decides what is acceptable and what isn't? I know that there are folks out there that do not believe that it is no longer "Left and right", but many still believe this andwill do for many years to come. Can you imagine going to an event and having right-wing political messages beamed up for all to see? I fear that everyone around here assumes that political footage is, by default going to be to the left of the spectrum, but if VJing is seen as a viable way of putting a political message forward, it is only a matter of time before some right wing bods move in on the scene. Here in the UK there are ultra right-wing people sitting in local councils under the auspices of a formal political party (the B NP) Hell, they were democratically voted in there (unbelievable, I know, but true) and therefore have a voice in the political arena. So where do we draw the line?
Please remember my point about Devils Advocate - I'm merely putting this into the melting pot as I feel that it could be so easy to forget that there is a wide spectrum of political beliefs, and in most democracies, freedom of speech does allow thes people a voice. Me, I'm mortified at their existance and staggered that we have fascists sitting in local council chambers, but thats real life.

[fALk]

little late to the party but:

With interest I hear the positions of different people on the issue of whether visuals should be political or not. I love VJforums and I liked AVIT, but I must admit that I get a bit bored with how apolitical this scene can be...(put me down for the "hippy crap"!).


AVIT AS (anarchy section) workshop with 15 people attending, soft hacking and projecting the surveillance camera of the "vj hotel" to building across the road (yes this was a political statement) . And work for vj manifesto in the works. I would say avit was not so apolitical as some might have believed.

as for the rest of the discussion:

I am quite in the middle here. I do have the ultimate believe that you can not vow people to "your side" by showing what the mainstream media is doing all day long: bad horrible political pictures, the people are over saturated by this it will fall off without going in. But showing only dancing big breasted girls will also do humanity no good and rather brainwash even more people into the MTV hippy happy hippo world where all things are bright and shiny and life is only good. My approach in the future will be to show where we could get to if we use the technology available to us in smart ways rather then destructive. This will only work if it is not exaggerated to an utopian society that "normal people" can not relate to. This is maybe one of the things that can be learned from masters of filmmaking - get your audience to relate to the things happening on screen and then you can change something. Yes me want to change and I would like dissolve all governments. The interesting point for me is what would the world look like then? How could such an approach work in a positive way. And how would a society that worked in strictly anarchy tribe like connection work. For me this is the path to the future and this is what I would like to express in my pictures. There is near future where a revolution of some sort is inevitable (just going out on the street will tell you that there is a deep divorce in society already not to be turned back or the overuse of resources that are empty in the short future, overcrowding in metropolitan areas (mexico city?) etc etc) and there is distant future after such a revolution what happens then is open to imagination.

[holly]

Originally posted by fALk
My approach in the future will be to show where we could get to if we use the technology available to us in smart ways rather then destructive. This will only work if it is not exaggerated to an utopian society that "normal people" can not relate to. This is maybe one of the things that can be learned from masters of filmmaking - get your audience to relate to the things happening on screen and then you can change something.

Nicely put Falk. Utopianism can go too far and be "alienating" or too "fantastic". Small steps are good, even trying humor and other welcome interface techniques... even eyecandy, to get people interested and relating.... And Oli I seriously doubt than any VJs here are going to have the resources to launch a full-on propaganda war. I think the reality is it will always be subdued and softened because someone once said as a writer the best you can hope is to get is one tenth of the impact of what you are feeling into words.... If we can just do a little bit it's better than doing nothing at all or not being aware of it. I would think even Oli's positive pictures is a form of "good vibe propaganda" not political per s?, but still trying to have some influence and responsibility over the crowd....

Some negative associations are unavoidable. When I think of Marxism I think of a gay friend in SF who went to Commie meetings demanding to know why the anti-gay thing is still in the manifesto.... And when I think of hinduism I think of a report I read that says most Indian women my age who die are killed because their husbands set them on fire.... And of course how many people have been turned from sprituality because of an oppressive religious background? Some imagery will turn up negative in some people's heads no matter what the intent.

holly at AVit let's go to the mission and see how many times in one hour you are treated with the repsect of a matriarchal society..
I dunno LilCat, you forget I use to live in SF and I'd definitely say The Mission was one of the better neighborhoods for me as a woman (worst was the Castro).... I don't want to get rascist about how men treat women, and mostly I go by my own experience because there are always so many exceptions, but I wouldn't give latinos such a bad rap, or American Jews either. Sometimes what is at the surface of a society is the direct opposite of what is underneith. Look at the Italians ? without trying to be gross, some of the raunchiest sex I've ever had was with "good Catholics", big tough guys until you roll them over.... Meanwhile some of the worst are Euro-American "whites" who go to burning man and think they are openminded and enlightened.... Tell ya what LilCat, we'll disguise you as a woman and take you to different neighborhoods and you will see a WHOLE DIFFERENT side of the men you thought you knew.
:love:

[Anyone]

Originally posted by holly
Oli I seriously doubt than any VJs here are going to have the resources to launch a full-on propaganda war.

I'm just trying to stay on topic,
this thread is about the artist as revolutionary , isn't it?

most political artists aren't full on in your face,
but then these aren't being revolutionary, are they...

Little Cat look right under your nose and try dating
a french canadian woman, especially one from up north.
you will find them sexually conscious and dominent,
outspoken, at the centre of family life and finance,
ambitious and oh yeah, politically minded...

have fun, ne1:yep:

[mirabelle]

I'm aware that I started the thread without then involving myself in the discussion, but sometimes it happens all too fast for me in cyberworld...
took me a while to read thru all the posts, and I won't be able to comment on all of it, but maybe I could clarify what I meant:

if political or revolutionary (or a different word that is less loaded), the point for me was that the visuals at parties can have an impact, therefore the artist (or insert different term) can get stuff out (if they want to!) which expresses their reflections/ critic/ utopia. Moreover, it is a channel of communication that is in our hands and not censored by the mainstream.

I know it'd be pretty bit shit if people were to use this medium to propagate stuff that I don't like (like right-wing or ignorant marxist views), and yes, here we have a problem, i.e. what is right/ wrong, the truth etc.

But all I can do in my projections is to try to get my personal truth out. My understanding is that this planet is in serious ecological and humanitarian crisis and that there is an urgent need for balance and social change. If I can do anything in my visuals that can add to a positive shift and have a transformative effect, well I wanna do it!

My question is then HOW to go about it.
like little Catalyst said: what works, stylistically, and formally, content wise etc. where do we see examples of the stuff that gets us off.... i
f you think its useless to even think in these terms, politics and being revolutionary, sure debate that, its a free internet, but if you think that is a positive addion to this thread, think about it some more...


A lot has been said already. I agree it depends on the context, the audience, the venue. It's got to be subtle and interspersed. Not preachy or cliche...

I def agree with political shouldn't mean depressing, or showing horrifying TV images. Empowerment - yes!

I like Lucid house's stance:
I try and inspire, energise people with my work, mainly using positive imagery...nothing to conceptual...best effect I can hope for is that it could be a catalyst to awakening people into using their incredible potential.
what do you mean by positive imagery that's not too conceptual?

this sounds good:
is allusion a tool to use? allegory? symbolism? parralell examples?

how would the emotional hook work?
how to get the audience to relate?

I'll have a good think about this myself and shall try to return with some concrete examples, okay?

cheers everyone for your diverse thoughts on this! I did mention that I love VJforums, didn't I?

:heart:

[elbows]

I think Ive seen one revolution in my lifetime, the internet.

Nobody can truly escape politics & power, because power comes from every individual. Because humans arent designed to be able to deal responsibly with global issues, and because of things like the efficiency of division of labour, we inevitably end up passing some of this power to institutions etc. Institutions harness this power for their own ends, but it still comes from us, even if we never consented to its use for those purposes. The internet allows individuals to connect without being under the complete control of institutions, so the internet has revolutionary potential. Knowledge is power, and the internet is spreading it around. I dont want to overstate this, and people usually think Im getting carried away when I discuss the internet in this way, but Im sure if I dug up some political philosophers of the past they would wet themsevles over the internet's potential.

Im too cynical stubborn etc to be making plans for any kind of world political revolution, because even the best intentioned revolutions can so easily be hijacked and you end up with worse than you have now.

My interest in VJing and politics comes from how TV is misused. I see how tightly controlled it is, and the effects that its output has on the masses, and something appeals very much to me about taking it and distorting it back on itself. Make no mistake TV is a powerful source, someone said "who controls you eyeballs controls your reality" and this is certainly true. No matter which avenue of politics aI sstudy, Fear keeps coming back as the human emotion which is most taken advantage of to keep people behaving appropriately in these times. I want to take the messages of fear, the bleak and ugly reality that is painted on the news every day, and turn it in on itself. Various social comentators have commented on the excitement and potential of TV when it was created, and how the medium has been wasted. I see that waste as a result of the controls that all "mass" things have by nature of their scale and power. So I dont think mass TV can be fixed in todays world, but I like the devolved individual having the power to show stuff to smaller audiences in the real world and virtual world.

I wouldnt say I really know what the best way to do this is though, thats why I am not an active VJ. Im not convinced that I can do a proper job of blending work with such messages into a club context, at the very least I will need to enter the realm of AV I think.

Holly I would like to know if you have found many ways to present your feminist ideology within a visual context. I would especially like to speak to anybody who has sucessfully incorporated messages/ideas etc (political or otherwise) into their work using a level of subtlety that avoids the obvious cliche's. Thats probably the other reason I dont do anything yet, Im afraid I might express messages in ways that arent exactly sophisticated, and I fear becoming captain cliche and the cheese machine!

[fluchtpunkt]

video production has been too expensive & too labour-intensive to be faesible for a wider public until very recently. at the same time consumption of audiovisual content (tv & cinema) was (...is) huge - averaging over 4hrs per person & day in many countries. thus very few control what very many are passively watching during a big part of their day. this is in & of itself a disempowering situation for those on the consuming end & by its very nature prone to get abused!

what is a revolution? literally it simply means turning sth over or around, & that is the meaning i would like to use.

if, because the required technology is becoming accessible to them, more & more 'ordinary people' ( :robot: ) start producing audiovisual content, then that is in itself something revolutionary because it is rebalancing the above mentioned skewed social power lever. it is turning over a social reality that has (in this form) persisted for over 50 years.

in this sense vjs or other 'video artists' are not just doing something new, they're also taking something back! (nice thought isn't it?)

...

did photo cameras becoming accessible to the public change the world? ...in some ways yes, in many ways no.

[fluchtpunkt]

...sorry if i should derail, but i just had to comment on this :devil: !

holly

Originally posted by holly
!!!!QUOTE DISTORTED BY FLUCHTPUNKT: female=white, men=black
Secondly, my political agenda is white supremacy, NOT equality. Blacks should be collared and submissive. Blacks crave discipline and power, it is their weakness and their strength. They are only truely satisfied when they are being controlled, therefore all blacks must be controlled or they will become unhappy and disrupt society. Whites must seize the responsibility of absolute control. The world will suffer until this view is universally recognized and adopted.... Will you defend my "social responsibility" to rescue all blacks from the inability to control themselves? Will you support my art when it expressly states that the absence of white control over blacks is the root of all evil in this world?

...i assume you were very aware of this (& indeed the argument you were making is just as valid in my distorted version). i can imagine, guess, assume, that the society/culture you're living in is in need of people that represent such extreme, contrasting (polemic?) views. i guess for many you are a kind of inverted 'zerrbild' - a 'distorted' image - of themselves ('verZERRen'='to distort' has no pejorative connotation to it, but rather one of 'pronouncing the extremes'). maybe, by representing a in many ways very distant viewpoint on the mental landscape of people you open up new horizons for them. there is of course also a grain of truth in what you say. but i hope you don't actually, literally believe your polemic [i]yourself[i]! because if you are, - while you may see the right problems - you are drawing the fundamentally wrong conlusions!

[Anyone]

come on tobias, have a sense of humor... :lol: :haha: :lick: :roll: :punch:

[holly]

...And chickens would swim in the sea if we only changed their name to "fish".... NOT!

Obviously I meant what I said, not your distortion of it. Comparing whites/Blacks to Women/men might work if you switched them around: White = Men; Black = Women.... But that is your distortion, not mine. When did Black men get the vote in your country? When did Women? There is no comparison.

Men require control whether they are "Black" or "White", and Control can either come from within (self-control) or without (societal-control). Look at any crime statistic in the world and you will see which gender has a problem with self-control. Let's pick an easy one: murder. Are you aware that 96% of men who are murdered are murdered by men, and 92% of women who are murdered are (surprise!) also murdered by men. While victimization is a genderless issue, those who victimize are almost exclusively male. Not a small majority, but the overwhelming majority of all crimes against humanity are committed by men. Do the math, then come back and preach equality.

You may however be misinterpreting the focus of my message. As you say, in "my" world an extreme position must be established because (in my opinion) women are not selfish with men the way men are with women. My goal is not to victimize more men since ? as pointed out in the murder example above ? men are already very good at victimizing each other. My goal is to introduce more women to the pleasure and satisfaction of being in control.

In the corollary: a recent study shows that women are the majority of college graduates, yet they are still an extreme minority at the top executive level. Why? Old skool feminists are discovering that today's women want career AND family. The single-minded drive for career success is compromised by the lack of supportive male mates, forcing women to abandon the most demanding careers to take care of their own families. Apparently, the fulltime husband/father/partner is even rarer than the female criminal.

[Portal]

I agree with most of holly's points, except for one.

I think Western women can, and on a broader basis, are just as selfish and/or giving with respect to their relationships with men as men are with women. Their is definitely less tendency to physical violence, but I believe social backlash may emerge from women in other ways.

To suggest women are, at a core, more "angelic" than men is not true, based on my and my male peers anecdotal experience.

Cheers,
Marcus {VJ Portal}

[Anyone]

all this is truely facinating but I'd just like to point out that we are seriously off topic.
Who's moderating this thread?
Ne1

[holly]

"Angelic"? Nah, I wouldn't say that either. "Soft" is maybe more what I would say.... Women are generally too soft. I think they are capable of being as selfish as men, but for some reason they aren't. I don't know why.... I think women need more selfish role models. I'm trying to do my part.

Anyway, why is this about MY politics? Who cares?

[fluchtpunkt]

holly, while your points are fair - they are completely beside the argument i was trying to make. i think i got the focus of your message quite right - if i didn't i would have been completely outraged by your statement ;) ! in that sense you imo do your job very well & i do not want to (...nor could i...:D ) disencourage you from going on!

obviously i am not comparing whites to women or men to blacks BUT comparing your rationale to the one of white supremacists - or any other 'school of thought' in the tradition of "my peer group noble & wise, your peer group primitive & 'triebgesteuert' (= controlled by instinct/lust)"!
you see, from my point of view white supremacists (...) aren't primarily wrong because blacks specifically aren't inferior - they're wrong because their base rationale of there being superior groups of humans that should dominate their inferiors is skewed from the get go. and this rationale doesn't get one bit better no matter how you pick your group of superiors & inferiors (e.g. women & men)!

the world needs more 'strong' women, i agree. but that doesn't mean that the world needs less 'strong' men (& the stereotypical macho type is definately NOT my vision of a 'strong' man!). we need more women in traditionally male dominated areas just like we need more men in traditionally female dominated areas. while women are not victimized more then men, the most plausible reason for the majority of victimizers currently being men is because they are 'in power' not because they are men (if you look at women in powerful positions they are usually neither better nor worse than men). while women still have many rights to fight for, men too have (even more?) rights to fight for! like the right to not have to fight, kill & die in wars or the right to see their children after a divorce. i do not preach equality in the sense of men & women being the same - i preach equality in the sense of ?galit?, of men & women deserving the same rights!!

....
...

having steered OT a bit i would like to take this discussion a bit back on topic. there is always two kinds of revolutionaries. both want to topple the old masters. some because they want to become the masters themselves, others because they believe everybody deserves to live free of a master. unfortunately most revolutionaries start as the latter & end as the former.

[Anyone]

Originally posted by fluchtpunkt
obviously i am not comparing whites to women or men to blacks BUT comparing your rationale to the one of white supremacists

right, just to finish off on this, I'd just like to say that
this is quite an old trap you've set up,
knowingly or not, I'm not sure
but I hope no one is falling for it.

just because someone is convinced and passionate about
a specific topic, doesn't make them hitler.

the only true difference between white suprematists or any extreme faction
and all the other speakers trying to get a message across,
is the actual message,
other than that, all is same, for all.
absolutely every body needs to be a caricature of themselves
if they're to be heard in the information saturated present day world.

the peeps you are talking about are spreading hatred and violence
I very much doubt Holly is attempting any such thing,
and I hope every one else has seen through your smoke screen...

Ne1

[xiayu]

Originally posted by Portal
I agree with most of holly's points, except for one.

I think Western women can, and on a broader basis, are just as selfish and/or giving with respect to their relationships with men as men are with women. Their is definitely less tendency to physical violence, but I believe social backlash may emerge from women in other ways.

To suggest women are, at a core, more "angelic" than men is not true, based on my and my male peers anecdotal experience.

Cheers,
Marcus {VJ Portal}

Seriously. I've seen way more women maliciously murder, socially, than men. Women tend to have more passion, which generally is displayed as compassion, but "hell hath no fury like a women's scorn".

[eXhale]

white supremacists project their own animality (which they don't like, and deny, and make worse) on non-whites and think they kill it by killing these people (while ironically they just display the negative side of their own animality by doing so). women have been persecuted for the same reasons, because they have a deeper connection with the earth, with sexuality and other things viewed as dark, "evil" and animal by the self-righteous men who have ruled the world for millenia (this was particularly clear during the witch hunts)

the one thing which bothers me with your views, holly, is that you seem to want women to become like men while there is so much to learn from feminity (it never made sense to me why this was called feminism). however, this makes sense regarding the idea of anima/animus, ie that there is a masculine side "hidden" inside women (and vice versa for men), and that the union of the two (inner/outer) allows to find the "true self".

here's my bit of pop psychology for today :o

[holly]

there is always two kinds of revolutionaries. both want to topple the old masters. some because they want to become the masters themselves, others because they believe everybody deserves to live free of a master. unfortunately most revolutionaries start as the latter & end as the former.


Well, I had a long response to this but even I couldn't stomach it. Suffice to say, everyone deserves the choice of living "free of a master" so long as they can be their own master. The minute you begin to obstruct other's personal freedoms, violate their bodies, or steal their resources you loose that choice.

Children cannot live free of a master. We expect parents to guide and protect them from their own behavior until they are of age to know their own limits and understand the consequences of their actions.

Criminals similarly need to have a master until they show they are no longer likely to commit crimes. Crimes against self are not as important as crimes against others, and "what is considered a crime" must always be reviewed.

There are so many self-professed anarchists on this list and honestly I just don't get it. Maybe they live in a crime-free zone ? I certainly don't. There are some crimes I want to leave up to society and the law to solve. I can't fight every battle myself! Case in point, some sex-freak dj at a party I worked 2 weekends ago decided it would be fun to feel me up, and I don't mean a quick grope ? I mean a full four-finger hard up the front and digging in as far as he could through my pants. Did I handle it in the Anarchist way of getting a gun and blowing the motherfucker's nutsack off? No, I went to the police, filed a report, had him arrested and now the creep has a criminal record and a restraining order. AND OHHHHH how all the other djs came to my rescue and shamed this guy for lacking self-control... NOT! Typically the guys who worked the event actually suggested I should drop the charges so this freak wouldn't have a criminal record or spend a few hours in jail(!), meanwhile the women were glad I stood up and delt with it.... Just another boy's network trying to protect the boys.... Tell ya what. Given the choice of spending a few hours in jail, getting a court date, and a criminal record or having your testicals shot off by an angry bitch amazon who will pick your bloody balls off the floor and cram them down your throat until you choke, which do you think is the better option: me or the cops? Believe me, no one wants me to be an anarchist. Saying "Oh, Holly, tee-hee you are being polimec because you can't really hate men that much...". Well, you don't know know me, I actually do hate men that much and I do think they should be put in cages until they can show self-control, but fortunately I have the self-control to let the cops handle it so it doesn't escallate into a full scale war of body violations.

But back to the point: saying "everybody deserves to live free of a master" is not entirely true. When we drive a car do we deserve to live free of all traffic lights and traffic laws? Is the stop sign "mastering" us? Or do we master ourselves while traffic signs are helpful guides so everyone is on the same page? Yeah, in my perfect world only a small minority of men (and women) would be kept in cages because most people do have self-control, but clearly not everyone deserves to be free of any and all master. Everyone needs to be controlled. Hopefully the first option is to be your own master.

eX, what you see as women becoming more like men, I see as women taking responsibility for the world they live in and forcing their own agenda onto society. As much as we all preach equality, there is fundamental truth to men and women being (at least when viewed as a group) different. Let the women be in control, then wait a mellenia or two and see what they do different. Power is not "masculine" any more than voting or owning property is "masculine" although there was a time when society would have disagreed.... I'm willing to take the chance that women would continue to be women even if they had all the power in the world.

[Anyone]

I'd like to disagree with Holly,

just because these things kind of things are really so stupid they shouldn't exist.
unfortunately they do, and I agree with her.
VJs work in clubs,
and clubs can be a place where men pray on women,
spiking their drinks and stuff like that...

I know a good number of nice looking girls simply because I film them a lot for my visuals.
not super models, just nice looking.
anyhow, boy, the stories they tell me about men approching them in clubs...

in a way, that's why I've focused my production much more on house music venues,
for some reason I don't see as many creeps in house gigs...

also I'm sorry to say,
there's a few geeks on the forum that spend more time online
than in clubs or social events...
nothing wrong with that,

we just to practice our social skills,
we just need to say "I've not experienced that" instead of "it's not true"
again I'm sorry to say, what Holly is saying, I've seen it many times,
not exactly the same way, but still.

Also, I think this might happen more often in bigger cities like New York than in smaller ones...

Ne1

[Portal]

I have many opinions on Western heterosexual dymamics and why there seems to be such a "confrontational" relationship between men and women, contributing to sexual assaults etc., lack of trust between genders, etc.

Should we start another thread with respect to that topic?

Cheers,
Marcus {VJ Portal}

[holly]

Yeah, start another thread, or move the relevent parts of this one to a new topic. I'm tired of my politics being centershow. And the male/female thing is tired. I don't even want to believe it. Come on, some of you must have stronger opinions (politics) than just recycling....

Elbows asked a while back if I'd found a way to put my sex-politic views into my VJ and I have to say "no". Putting any sort of sexual content in my videos seems a bit like asking for trouble. In a gallery setting or theater, it'd probably be ok ? might even be tempted to push it for contraversy's sake, but in a club I just feel like it has too much room for misinterpretation. For clubs I'm into the Oli vibe of fun light and pretty, you know, uplifting. I just want to make people smile and help them have a good time. I (honestly) don't want to punish every guy in the club for something that one creep (or even a hypothetical creep) does or might do. It's just not the vibe I want for me. I think you can honestly be religious without pushing God on everybody. I can be a female supremist without becoming a "caracature" of myself on video. However, if it turns out to be a big selling point I'll probably change my mind and do it just for that sake, to stand out and become famous as an artist. Ya gotta have a gimmick no matter what your personal views....

Since slavery was used as an example, how would you present an anti slavery message? Showing clips from slavery films (people starving in the hold of a ship, being beaten...) seems not just a downer but grotesque.... Showing slaves uprising and over powering their masters and you have BIRTH OF A NATION, the film that showed a very Southern racist view of escaped slaves raping white women, etc. In otherwords, are you fueling the fire, and exactly how can your message be misinterpreted...? Maybe you could just show clips of the chains coming off and try to capture that "liberation" moment as a timeless repeating loop?

[Portal]

I will start a new thread if other site users express interest as well.

Many of these opinions and ideas I have, have not been previously expressed publicly on this board. Thus, I think there would be very little recycling. Some of them are even very recently developed perspectives.

Cheers,
Marcus {VJ Portal}

[littlecatalyst]

portal i dont think it was thread/tpoic recycling... but a po :poke: ke at ecotreehuggingvegetarianhippyanarchoveejay folks. but anyway--

im not sure about the slavery issue-- contemporary slavery in places like burma and/or white slave trades? or u mean like 19th century usa/europe>africa? does wage slavery count? also, is it for a club environment? but i do know one thing... one way would be to look to how oliviero toscani dealt with racial disharmony, ok he's not a vj (at least he's not a painter) but i think he did a lot of interesting work in subverting his medium and getting some stuff out there and (at least at the beginning) in a nice, happy and non-threatening way. of course that's for clubs.. ((though golly holly, from the clips ive seen of yours online, and things youve said about your work, i think you do have it in your work))

galleries and theatres (and DVDs, pirate broadcasts, kazaa...) dont have to have that restraint, in fact there is bound to be an audience out there for some material that baltantly preaches to the choir (so as to round up the troops) as well as an audience who wants to learn more about stuff and wants to be challenged (maybe in the future the munts will point and click in the middle of a jamand goto relevant websites that the vj set into the dvdrom). so there, i guess, one could go into the gritty stuff (though it ought to still look amazing and hopefully have a good groove).

:love2: as for the s/he issues.... holly's right about the jerky boys in clubs and how patriarchy has been pretty downright awful. ((for me at least partially it is a micro/macro deal, and anti female stems from anti gaia behavoiur which has happened ever since civilization took over form culture (but thats a different debate))) i think its fair to say that the 21st century has begun with an abundance of insanity, and every next generation gets *more* everything, including violent, so now its true that there are women and girls who are as violent and piggish as the guys (and in fact more violent and piggish than a lot of the guys here), but that is still a tiny fraction as compared to the rest of the 52% of our global population.. i cringe when i think that the institutionalized violence towards women is the just the tip of the iceberg as incidents like holly described happen probably 5000 times a second on this planet (do the math). and yes portraying storng women and happliy sumissive men is part of the solution, but so is protraying stong men. and like flucht said, that is something that is not present in the media, where storng men are portrayed as schwartzeneger (literally as he can not only be a rich big cigar chomper, but grope chicks and get elected, ultimate power) and yet alls i can think about is how small his dick must be that he needs all of that. that is not stregnth at all. that is total sumission to ego. it's weak men that fuck up the scene. it's weak men that get jealous (prolly know they are't pleasing their woman), and the ones who feel helpless that need to controll others (and if they unable to do it to others at work they do it to wife/kids).... feed their ego by a trophy babe/wife, fear their inadequacey and extend it with big cigars, big cars, big pens (did you ever see those exec pens? christ, 1/2 of goodvibrations product line is smaller than those penis extentions).... that violence is because of weakness. And the violent nature of the past 1000 years generally and the constant and growing need for soldiers and warroirs, so that our happy-accident propaganda machine spews out little rambos, that people have mistaken weakness for stregnth. real strenth has to do with channeling your energy (something that we all do, as creators whether we believe in new age stuff or not) and hasto do with not being a slave to impulses and reactions to stimuli, focus, intent, and as well, stregnth has to do with perception, how one percieves him/herself and how they percieve whats around them (including people, and especially for this conversation the opposite sex or gender they mate with) the old in/out thing.

so i do think that this is part of the same thing, not just "holly's politics" ((which come on, its not just her)) but of the thing were talking about in general.... these are the issues we feel something about (often quite strongly). for me they all seem to be interconnected. And we create visuals. the visuals seem to be going beyond the club environment (so there is room for this sort of revolutionary propaganda) and even in the arena of a club, there are ways to still protray the things we care about and make positive impressions without killing the party (without anyone noticing outright but picking up on it would be the best imo)

jeezuz i think this is the longest post i have ever written

[littlecatalyst]

ok so tha last thing i wrote here seemd to have been a thread killer, sorry about that (not to tally sure what i said, but i stand by it) but ANYWAY i was thinking about this thread a few days ago, and thought about all these parties that i like to play that are unconventional and where i can get away with showing peaceful struggles and stuff like that, and im sure that you folks have seen these as well; in Quebec we stopped the government for a full 24 hours by circling the government buildings (our capitals easy, tehyre all bunched together) playing drums, smiling and talking with folks. no violence at all... lotsa puppets. that kind of stuff is fun to shoot and remix live....

my absolute fav is to use stuff from those East Village garden zelots in new york that happens every spring, check out their slideshow, http://earthcelebrations.com/springslideshow.htm youll see there are ways to give props to the people/struggles you need without showing the bad side (the opposite side would be the nasty developper with his cigar paving over these public oases, but why bother... look at how dynamic the good stuff is........ (((sure its not club fodder, but the kids in loft parties love this shit)))

[neoteo]

VJcentral ....

are we a political underground cuminity ?

i like it :yep: