Vj = Dj ?

[rickmaersk]

I've only recently discovered these forums. I'm really impressed with the ideas here and the lack of Mac v PC bullshit. Sorry if this is the equivilant of walking into a church and asking if you REALLY believe in god but.... It's clear from reading posts here that many of you see VJing as analagous to DJing. I think that's a pretty fun idea- go to the loop store, buy some white label DVDs, turn up at the venue with your disc bag and your universal portable memory media... all very William Gibson.
But these analogies don't stand up, right?
We percieve vision and sound totally differently. We see actively, we can hear passively.
We are culturally conditioned to perceive production value in moving images. There is no equivilant perception with music.
Anyone who remembers 1980's video art will know that part of the philosophy behind it was that cutting up tv pictures was the exact video equivilant of the Burroughs/Gysin cut up technique for text. But in retrospect it wasn't.
Even in practical terms there are massive differences- licensing, distribution, rights etc.
Am I missing out on something?
Do you see DJing and VJing as the same thing? Are the similarites more important than the glaring differences. Will there soon be superstar VJs?
Not trying to start a fight here just really interested where you are coming from:).
Rick

[PilotX]

I find the dj analogy more useful for a quick explanation of what we do.. vjing is like djing except we mix video rather than audio.. but I think it is really more analagous to bands at this point in that we create/sample our video, post-produce it and play live.. perhaps at some point we will start seeing people listed either as vj set or live set denoting whether they are going to play content bought on dvd or their own stuff..

[robotfunk]

Originally posted by rickmaersk

We are culturally conditioned to perceive production value in moving images. There is no equivilant perception with music.


Beg your pardon?

[littlecatalyst]

like pilot said its good for a quick explanation, like a dj but with visuals-- but really thats like you suggest, hardly the real story.

one of the reasons so many people seem to have problems with the vj tag at all is cause it leaves it there with the dj, and this is a medium of unparallelld potential- like a band but a band that encompasses popular media (contemporary music, cut/paste tv...) as wells as the latest in visual manipulation as well as a good groove, 21st century style media cowboys... youre right that it goes beyond dj, but as far as charting it i dunno, i think its just as much fun to mix now, ask questions later...

i do have a queation though about something you said, that listening could be done passively, while watching requires active watching, thats true for your car radio and for watching a film, but people watch passively for an average of 7 hours a day with a tv (creepy) and my favorite musics always require active listening. but that passive watching thing.. for me, this work taht were doing that is something that can help bring about some active watching, something i am totally into happening...

also, if it does get to the point that the hottest content creators are cutting loops and selling them in record stores next to the breaks vynyls, and then selling long play ep dvds and all of that is bringing $$ in to my favorite rendering fiends' pockets to help them make more amazing stuff, then i hope the dj stigma stays a little while longer

[eXhale]

just because you don't consciously watch visuals doesn't mean your unconscious is not affected by them (tv ads are much more effective when people are not actively watching them)... plus even if your back is turned to the screen, you can still be affected by the energy / emotion of those actually watching (passively or actively) the visual... if visuals hardly affect the punters, maybe it's because the visuals are dull, not because the punters are "uninformed" or the screens are badly setup.

[littlecatalyst]

i agree totally with you ex-- passive watching is way stronger. and can be used for good or for evil, but mostly so far we know what its been used for....

[solly]

I think it depends on how good the DJ is and how good the VJ is. A DJ can do without a VJ but a VJ needs a DJ.
Solly

[littlecatalyst]

who needs a dj???

[rickmaersk]

We are culturally conditioned to perceive production value in moving images. There is no equivilant perception with music.

We learn to read moving images through watching film and TV.
Most of these images are loaded with production value: editing, multiple camera angles, lighting etc. These are part of the language of film/tv. If you don't work in film/tv you might not be able to deconstruct stuff technically but you still read the production value.
For example a camera move on tracks or a crane costs money and also has narrative meaning.

What's the audio equivilant of a zoom dolly shot? Stereo panning?

A typical reaction to local TV ads or a crap game show would be to call it cheap. We don't do this with music. Is sparce techno cheap?. Is jazz cheap?
The only cheap music i could think of is shitty library music.

The film industry is based on maintaining a format gap between amateur and professional film/video. The music industry is not.
The music business might invent a newer higher fidelity medium to make us all buy our records/CDs over again. But that's not about keeping a gap between new musicians and the Rolling Stones. Precisely the opposite is true with video formats.

Our main way of by passing the issue of production value is to use abstract images because they can be read like art rather than conventional cinema.

As no one is sticking up for the VJ = DJ analogy except as a way of explaining your job can I assume it just doesn't stand up?

Rick

[robotfunk]

I think you are too used to hearing radio, seeing mtv and otherwise lacking exposure to the millions of forms of less slickly produced audio to appreciate the diversity of quality around. Perhaps enormous competition in the audio field as compared to the vj field has filtered out most 'less than perfect' examples from your ears but believe me, people hear production values in audio. Even if they don't notice it.

[julez]

production values are enormously different in music. I would go so far as to say that we pick up on low quality production values in music more that in visuals. I mean how many people can tell if a tv program was shot on film or not? But how many people can tell an mp3 from a normal cd.
(i suppose thats only dealing with quality rather than production values but i really couldnt be bothered to think up a relevant analogy.)

btw maybe it doesnt sound this way but im definatly not critisising u (and i hope no one else is) coz its good to have some new opinion.

[bluntfaktory]

i DJ a little and i try to mix along with the a DJ when i'm VJing , but VJ super stars ? well that's all marketing and how do you market a VJ ? half the super star DJ's are just trance DJ's ( as trance is a word that record executives can remember , like heavy metal was in the 80's ) that got asked to do a compilation CD that they then get distributed . for example , without mentioning any names , the DJ that was voted number one in the world , with whom i've done a few big shows with , plays the worst , white noise , lowest common denominator , pick it up at a virgin mega store , soulless crap , thats bleeding the electronic music scene dry of all it's feeling . so i think it' must be all about the hype , if you want to make it big . the only way they'll ever be a super star VJ is with some super star marketing behind them , and that won't happen until you can box up what we do and sell it at a chain record store . :smack:

[xangadix]

Without directly jumping to Tiesto (Ow... I'm sorry we weren't calling names :rolleyes: ) I think the best quote on the subject I've heared so far is that music is for the soul, and visuals are for the mind.

[ecin]

Originally posted by rickmaersk
As no one is sticking up for the VJ = DJ analogy except as a way of explaining your job can I assume it just doesn't stand up?

Rick

correct.

its a simplified way of explaining to the general public what we do that they can understand in simple terms. When you come down to it, what does that term DJ really mean? One who operates and manipulates a round flat object? The term DJ has become the norm name for someone who mixes, beatmatches, plays, or scratches music for public broadcast via records, CD's, tapes MP3s, 8-tracks or whatever the current music delivery medium happens to be. VJ is an equivelant of this that still doesn't make any sense but people can easily relate to it.

if someone asks me what I mean by VJ, they understand more easily rather than me explain to them the 7 differnet job skills I have that are involved in VJ'ing and how they relate to each other:

Motion Media Designer
Camera Operator
Video Editor
Live Vido Controller
Computer Operator
Video Gear Installation Tech

[bluntfaktory]

ya like an underpaid DJ that plays all night long , makes their own music , then singlehandedly rigs their own sound system that they bring and hangs around to take it all down after the gig is over , but instead of music it's video = big time VJ

same: like an over payed VJ that plays for a few hours , uses mostly everyone elses images , does no set-up , and splits in a payed for limo when they feel like taking of to the after party , but instead of video it's music = super star DJ

[bluntfaktory]

just as a side note for the so called " super star " DJ gigs if i have to higher out help to work the show they always get a " crapy music " bonus , unless of course it's some good like Mike Shannon or anyone not backed by Virgin Records or Mix Mag CD of the month . sorry if this is of topic a little but i'm just sick of having to listen to bad music played by mediocre DJ's at big shows like their suposed to be something special . think of the children ........ the childrrrrreeeeeennnnnn .
:crazy: :crazyeyes :fridge: :crazyeyes :crazy:

[MJ]

most vj's follow the dj

they make an atmosphere to the music

it's the same with light

in fact a videobeamer
is just a medium bright spot with a variable gobo.




for the vj's who make sound next to their visual
its' VJ=DJ=LJ

[TechnoLust]

Originally posted by PilotX
perhaps at some point we will start seeing people listed either as vj set or live set denoting whether they are going to play content bought on dvd or their own stuff..
This intrigues me! But I think we can further refine the terminology. To my thinking, a live set would have to include a computer, something that can be beat-responsive, as well as offer the artist the ability to queue up the perfect clip to go with the vocals of the current song. Anything else, like material on DVD or SVHS, would be a mix set. Technically, "VJ" applies to both mix sets and live sets.

Disagree? Let me use another analogy then...

DJs who bring records are playing a mix set.
DJs who bring Roland 303's or use midi devices are probably doing a live set.

(Damn, maybe this should be a new thread?) =p (And I bet I've repeated what someone else said somewhere on this forum...)

-TL

[RickRobiN]

Okay! nice subject.
Firts post after one year of learning everything from this community :)
Did my first gig vdj.
The clip is on http://www.rickrobin.tv It's quit big but the end is really nice!
It was hard, 2 soundstreams to mix and 2 vid at the same time. Really wish I had more arms at that moment.
I used traktor and vdmxx.
audio into the audiomixer&vdmxx, afo, mute that one.and resamples the audiostreams from my videos again into the audiomixer with some audio hijack filters.
:love2: audio and image
not a onenightstand
I just started to explore the whole multimedia. This is only the beginning. After also one year of making photos and clips for invited by tiesto it feels really good to be more in control. Next month part two. paid:nod: life is sweet.
cheers RR:yep:

[RickRobiN]

okay, didn't explain enough.
really simple:
If you see sea you must hear it to feel it.
(and resample that sound in your djmix..)
It's the only way to get full attention.
Gonna upload a smaller clip on my site now, maybe the last quicktime for me >
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1547657,00.asp made me :rolleyes: ltRR

[akira_k]

Originally posted by bluntfaktory
sorry if this is of topic a little but i'm just sick of having to listen to bad music played by mediocre DJ's at big shows like their suposed to be something special .
Oh man. I simpatize with you. Let's say I have 10 or 15 gigs a year, all with "superstar" or reknowned DJs. Most times if I am lucky I hear mostly new DJs, sometimes I hear some I heard before. All thetimes they are boring and overhyped crap. From every year there's only ONE or TWO DJs I really enjoy, and the names stick to my head like glue.

Anyway, I don't like the DJ=VJ thing as well, because I think our work at kiken is much more richer. I do compare it to live music sets. We don't spin DVDs and stuff like that.

[krezrock]

VJ+LD=VLD?


Originally posted by MJ
most vj's follow the dj

they make an atmosphere to the music

it's the same with light

in fact a videobeamer
is just a medium bright spot with a variable gobo.




for the vj's who make sound next to their visual
its' VJ=DJ=LJ

[akira_k]

I forgot to mention I don't understand the relation with an LJ either. What material are they creating? The moving pattern of the light? Even though a beamer could be considered a "special kind of light", its use is very different, and the way it's generated is completely different from what a light jockey does.

[MJ]

ofcourse they are not creating "material"

but they visualize the mood of the music
through colors, movement, shadows and contrasts all following the tempo.

that's what most vj's are doing
but not with parcans but with pixels

when we do our shows we also do the light

to get all the attention of the audience
we make for example everything red
lights and video.
all the eyes of the people are used to red and very sensitive to cyan

and suddely we make video cyan

bang.

most colors we use in our vj set are calibrated with the colorgels in the parcans

[akira_k]

Probably your set is very color dependant, but I think the stuff on screen can go way beyond that, and there are more ways to mix in with the music AND the lights without retorting to tinting what's on screen in sync with the colors of the lights.

Each one works differently ;)

[MJ]

besides of tinting you can also put videomaterial on screen with represent the color

yellow beach
red postoffice
green etc


of course there are more ways to mix with the music + lights
as i said

"but they visualize the mood of the music
through colors, movement, shadows and contrasts all following the tempo.


you can connect the speed of the light-chase to the speed of a video-chase

or when the lj has a chase from total wash to small spot you can make video transistion from cityskyline to fragment of brick wall

you can follow a slower tempo in music while the lj follow a faster tempo the same time
and after a break switch it

[MindMimic]

If you think illusions can be created, perceptions altered, and mindstates taken to alternate dimentions just with sound. Then VJ ing is the next classical step untill we get to the point where we can tune realities into whatever we wish. I feel VJing is the next building block on the platform of sound.
First, people alter sound and music to a point -We are at a point were we can do almost anything with sound-- Look at Mozart, Hindrix:multitracks, digi sound---All this
Now we are at a point in time also when we have the people and technology that want to take the next step and start really messing with visual perception on top of sound
Would most DJs would be VJs if they had the time? They are an extension of each other, VJ ing is the visual perception of music. So in that light they are different but linked together. I think there might very well be a superstar VJs. As long as theres someone out there thats creative and patient enough to build something that just ends our world!