Being Surreal, Part II

[BrainStove]

Ok. for those of you new to the Topic, please take a look in HERE (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2977&highlight=surreal) to know what was said before in this contraversial debate. ;)

Quoting some bits about what I said in the "Sampled vs Self created content" thread related to VJs dealing more with feelings/moods instead of thoughts/ideas in their interaction with the crowd in their shows into a party environment, I would like to retake the issue in this thread in order to keep it focused & OnTopic.

Well, I?ve already explained myself my specific circumstances & motivations to be Surreal with my visuals, but I?ll try to go further to make my point.
And by Surreal I?m not meaning Trippy, Abstract & Swirly (Please read first the suggested thread above and stop coming by here with the same shit again ;) )

So, here are my points:

1) HellDamn if I got two different persons in a Rave agreeing about what the hell I was trying to say with my visuals while VJing in a party... they simply would be trying to fool each other with a big pile of intellectual crap... I?m not trying to say anything through my visuals.

2) HellDamn if I get two different persons feeling the same thing at the same time through my visuals whom also can be able to express, describe, explain in coherent words what the hell it was... cuz I would be doing something wrong with what I meaning like a goal in my visuals.

Ok, the previous 2 points are somewhat cryptic in nature, so I?ll use some example to illustrate my point better. ;)

Suppose I?m sit down on a bench in a park and you are around there near to me, suddenly you note I?m stareing at you... but with no facial expression and no body gestuality at all on my part, NOW you start to conjecture, speculate and fooling yourself about what the hell I?m trying to communicate/say to you... Hehehe, well, of course you felt something going on there, but I?m not trying to communicate anything to you, it?s just you with your own virtues & defects stablishing a private conversation with yourself... :P
The same is true with my visuals, in the parties/raves where I?m VJing you are totally free & safe in your own world, I?m not trying to manipulate you in any way not even trying to catch your attention, I?m just trying to flow in synch with the music and your very own vibe along, maybe providing you also some tools triggering you to know yourself better from the insides.

Well, that?s a merrily aproximation about what I mean by being Surreal, of course I know this is working out better for me due the kind of events & music i use to VJ for (and because I am like I am :P), clearly it?s not any rule of thumb to follow in other different context/environments & music styles, I simply thought it would be insightful for newbies & alike to put on the table in the clearest way the word SURREAL in visuals. I really feel that concept doesn?t come out absolutely clear in the Thread Part I above and you bet I wouldn?t be satisfayed with that... Hehehe :yep:

[Amukidi]

Err - whilst I appreciate that English is not your first language, this post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - Have you looked up the word Surreal in a dictionary? and I don't mean google either!

[BrainStove]

Yeah, Surreal like Oniric, Inner, Innate, Subconcious, Infrareal, Evoking, Suggestive, Subtle, BlaBlaBlah, Etc.Etc.Etc.

Anything else different to show the damn thing Straight.

Jaffa, Jaffa, Jaffa... :D :love:

[KillingFrenzy]

FISH!

Amukidi,
See the previous thread on this subject, then slap your head a few times in frustration, then give up. I have.

[holly]

If I saw you staring at me in a park with no facial expression at all, and you continued to do it even after I did the obligatory Smile, Stare Back, and Make a Face, I would just assume that you were a total FREAK and HellDamn if I'm not correct!

But ok, I'm getting the idea that you are talking about a style in which you deliberately create no meaning (or no intentional meaning, because even at the subconcious level your selections must have some meaning or aesthetic to you), and it is your joy to stir an uncomfortable, perhaps inexplicable reaction as the people attempt to discern some order or purpose to your visuals....

While the SUREALIST MOVEMENT of roughly the 1920's through the late 40's was thick with symbolism and psychology ? marking the transition from an age of Spiritualism to an age of Psychoanalysis where everything held hidden meaning and purpose, you are most likely describing an afinity with DADA, a Jazz age, modernist movement of sudden random non sequitor objects, and the cut'n'clip disordered wordplay of Gertrude Stein.

[WordVirus23]

oh, that style was actually created by Brian Gysin and given as an intellectual gift to William S. Burroughs.
<curtsey>
..james...

Originally posted by holly
the cut'n'clip disordered wordplay of Gertrude Stein.

[Anyone]

Agree with Holly here,

if you want to discuss Surrealism Brainstove,
you have to be slightly more precise because
Surrealism can slip in meaning from it's original one of
Heavy psychological liricism guided by the artist's Freudian ID
to one of Automatic Writing which might relate more to Dadaism
as mentionned here as well...

there is one danger with all this however,
that you might fall in the trap some Jazz musicians did,
and deliver completely obscure performances,
which give no narrative or even sensual pleasure
other than to the performer him/her self...

Ne1

[holly]

oh, that style was actually created by Brian Gysin and given as an intellectual gift to William S. Burroughs.
Depends on if it is sampled or self-created. If it is sampled it is Gysin. If it is self-made it is Stein.
:P :cool:
"Cut'n'clip" was the wrong term for Stein; more accurate for Gysin. Her work was self-referencial and Modernist. She pre-dates Gysin by at least 40 years, but the styles are not identicle. I called Stein "Jazz Age", but I'm thinking Gysin's audio equivilent would be MusiqueConcrete.... I don't know that much about Gysin, though.

[BrainStove]

Thanks everybody for your interest in this thread anyway, I?m really very grateful for the Academics drops of wisdom & advice about History of Art here.
But despite of my ignorance in History of Art, indeed I has been using the word Surreal just like a simple, crude, gross, bare, naked, mundane, popular, coarse... Adjective!

So yeah, I?m meaning Surreal like: "slightly under the surface of reality", "The realms of the feasible but not necessarily possible", "The desirable but less probable", "The remoteness but yet two closed eyes reachable", "The infinite but with some point of reference", "The infallibility but with flaws", "The inevitable but hopeful", etc., etc. ...(put yours here) (Am I becoming so corny?) :D

Effectively, trying to take you to a ride through all those Brycely worlds, canyons, terrains & landscapes of your Neo-Cortex and going down deep till your more primitive amygdala, but not looking to stir any uncomfortable reaction, just the opposite; actually seeking to provide harmony, fluidity, order and a somewhat sense of ingravity between your very own essence and your surroundings, of course, this only possible if you are InSynch with the music, the general vibe & atmosphere there where you are, so no way I should pretend to interrupt that flow, distracting you or deflecting you out/off from your own inner business.

Yeah all this may sound like plain bullshit if you never have been in any of my gigs and even harder to imagine specially if you don?t know any of those 3D based, real time, sound reacting VJsofts I?m using as my Key VJtool, they actually are not using any videoclip source at all to deliver visuals, they are not swirly/abstract/fractals shapes tweaking ala winamp, they are simply minimalistic Infrareal 3D scenaries looking kinda Bryce, 3D objects, animated meshes and stuff like that, all of them morphing, mutating, changing & reacting (in random or controlled fashion) to the beat of the music and also to many other sound variables in real time. (To name a few: Oozic Reaktor, DancerDNA)
Of course these are not my only weapons, I use also all of those clip based VJsofts around in the mix, but curiously I select/prefer the more unknown ones too, like Meimi, LightGroove & Aestesis.
The same is true for the finest more obscure Winamp plugins around ;) :P

So yeah Holly, like you can imagine my visuals are full loaded of symbolism and psychology mainly, but still not too coherent in a reality context, hence; me claiming the Surreal tag.
As for your FREAK assumption, Hehehe, totally correct!!, but in fact I was describing more that process occuring between that frozen instant when you are aware I?m staring at you and the beginning of your own private conversation with yourself (often it can be perceived like a much longer time) way before you can even react to Smile, Stare Back or Make a Face... In that case you could receive back some more new Surreal responses or maybe some not so Surreal ones. :D :censored:

Very interesting what you are saying Ollie, appreciated; but fortunately still keeping myself healthily far away from any ostracism or autism in my work.
Hehehe, I guess, actually all of you can depose/support that idea after reading my effort to aboard these intricate topics; Thinking in Spanish but writing in English/Spanglish. :D :P

[vjrei]

A long time ago some one complained about me because I wasn't sharing anything in the "Content->Inspiration" section.

The reason of that is because the material we use in our performance is very personal. In my case I just get footage from the internet and I can create my own if I'm charging for it.

Now , the VJ community is not the best place to discuss certain things because many people are very possessive with what their consider VJing and art. For being "artists" many are not that open-minded.

I do not discuss about art or surrealism because I may know about "surrealism" what I have seen in the Art and Entertainment channel. I know the level of education (for that kind of things) in the US is way more deeper than what you can find in a country like Venezuela from where BrainStove and I come from.

Any way, I could discuss about art but in another levels, my field are the sponsors. I hope to find enough jobs in the future so I can spend more time with my visual art which I like a lot but it require time, money and tranquility to develop.

[BrainStove]

Bump yeah! (http://www.alltheweb.com/r?ck_sm=709008ce&rpos=10&oid=-&rpge=1&ref=100340086&r=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digitalgraphica.net%2Fart%2Fsur real.jpg)

Disturbing??? ...Get use to it :alien: :smack:

[holly]

Scare-weeeee!!!

I'd like to hear more about these live 3D programs (I know this ain't the thread for it) but since I'm Miss Compositing & Keying I'm looking for any live elements to add to my rig. I'd go for a simple app, even if it means only one model (mesh?) at a time that can morph about and be manipulated, spun, etc. The guy who made x/Grind was going to make a 3D/grind via Director's newish 3D controls, but I fear he's finding the VJ scene to not be such a supporter of new softies as he'd hoped.

Is there anything out there that can do this kinda stuff? Computers just don't hack it (for me) as video players, but live 3D can't be done any other way. Any custom game engines or something that I can give a chroma background and my partner (a natural twiddler) could jam on the joystick, or similar? Mac maybe?

And I din't never go to no artskule either, I just made a little effort to delve into some history that went back further than the first DepecheMode album.... Back to an age when art was a bit more respectable. The internet and the public library are your friends.

[BrainStove]

Originally posted by Anyone
if you want to discuss Surrealism Brainstove,
you have to be slightly more precise...
Well, I already made my best shot...

Originally posted by BrainStove
indeed I has been using the word Surreal just like a simple, crude, gross, bare, naked, mundane, popular, coarse... Adjective!
So, the ball just bounced on your side of the camp... McEnroe :D

Originally posted by Holly
I'd like to hear more about these live 3D programs
...Is there anything out there that can do this kinda stuff?
Hmmm, on your beloved Mac 3D side, I think you?d have to settle down just with Pixelshox only, unless you play enough your charm to convince Kennet to finish xGRIND fully, on the programmed Compositing & Keying field there are a lot more I could suggest to turn you crazy, but could start with Onadime, Isadora, Image/ine and all those MSP Max/Nato/Jitter based ones, but though not even close to the approach of those I?ve mentioned above on the PC side.:poke:

[littlecatalyst]

ok 2 things:

1- brainstove, please start a thread about the tech stuff you use that sounds waayy interesting!!

and 2, i'm kinda trying to think up a joke on the spot, its about two conversations happening beside me at a bar, on one side there are two people who just jinxed each other 3 times. and one says to the other "woah dude, that was surreal!" and then i look at the couple on the other side and try to tell them how wrong dude # 1 is because the surrealist movement eneded sometime before dali became an asshole... the guy (who i interrupted) says, no man, thats just an abstract expression. and then i have to explain to this guy all about pollak and kandisky.....

ok so im no comic~ but i think i get his drift, some things are a little weird sometimes, people say surreal sometimes as an adjective, sure, and at this point- just like dude no longer means an easterner out on a ranch- and especially since brain used surreal no ism or ist, i think there may be some leway

[eirenah]

Originally posted by vjrei
I do not discuss about art or surrealism because I may know about "surrealism" what I have seen in the Art and Entertainment channel. I know the level of education (for that kind of things) in the US is way more deeper than what you can find in a country like Venezuela from where BrainStove and I come from.

...i think that's no excuse cause the most valuable and precious knowledges are the ones you dig for yourself, the ones that are not coming in schools on silver plates... but during my studies i figured it was sooo precious for me to find a good menthor whose work i admire and squeeeezed everything out of him... you can't expect to get everything in schools, no matter how good your education system is....... you have to take what you want...

[Loki]

Always thought art was about making you see things in adifferent way, or maybe making u see/cognisant of them for the first time. "Surrealist" art done since anglo/american/continental art and culture reacted against modernist thought will be derivative (to quote someone but im buggered if i can remeber who) but does that stop the piece being surreal? Some art can be viewed as surreal evenif the creator didn't intend it to be surreal (Pavement pizza perhaps?!?) I was walking down the street last week and an androgynous form cycled past me on a BMX with their head completely enshrouded in masking tape.....my initail reaction was "Thats fucking trippy" but when relating the story to friends I used the term surreal......

....my point is that in todays fast food spoonfed culture their are ready soundbites to use and they invariably are, it is neither wrong or inexcusable to use a misnomer in ignorance, I blame disinterested teachers and McDonalds but thats me!!

Even though I'm a wetbehind the ears newbie to this scene, I have enjoyed enough visuals at P-Arties be they trippy psychdelics, or as I interpreted some of them to have a loose narrative and message to have formed the humble opinion that as VJ's blend a number of art forms (Animation, Video, Digital Media, and of course Music) there will inevitably be some form of conjecture about its meaning. Art isn't just about the message that the artist conveys, or the message the observer/particpant perceives I really belive In my humble opinion its about creating the poles that define the spectrum of opinion and individual taste that record a snapshot of a culture at a given moment in time and place. Its an chimerical timecapsule to those that follow us. Once i begin to play out I will develop my own style that is unique to me, someone who is my complete antithesis may feel that it is surreal, subversive, political, deconstructive I could give a flying monkeys fuck as long as the vast majority of peole enjoy it....If it makes them think then marvellous and I would like to sit down with a smoke and chew the fat with them for a little while, if it makes their night a little more trippy then the bewilderment will make me buzz too.

My point is as VJ's we are creating a new artform from recycling the more useful of other artforms that we find accessible its all an awfully big adventure to me and from what I can see it has one hell of a scope to advance and evolve. As an armchair philosopher I feel that once something is defined it is tied down and hindered, for it too evolve it has to break free of that definition (From portrait art to Dada to surreal to Pop Art and so on ad infinitum) and hence why there are so many "schools" of art, music, literature, and thought on so many different subject. My parents sniff and label my musical tastes as "Not Music"! Early 20th century artists and art critics (different breed of people closely related to auditors!) looked at Dada and surrealism and said "Thats not art!", in the sixties the beatles were labelled not music, and those very people who were into that non-music label todays contemporary music as non music (a label I apply to manufactured pop bands who are EQ'd through a Software program to make them sing in tune!)

Anything out of context and non conventional/non conformist, innovative or just pure genius will always be greeted with suspicion by those who make up the cultural norm....its having the bollocks to go with your convictions and doing it anyway that breaks new ground and gives those very people the headspace to disapprove of it.....VJ'ing combines creativity and techie know how, we are the artists in the information age, sorry to use a gender specific label but a renaisance man used to mean equally ersed in the arts and science, so i suppose we could pigeon hole ourselves Renaisance humans/beings......

....this whole post has been out of context does it mean its surreal? What were your intial thoughts feelings and reactions as you read some of my comments? What happened in that zen moment between you reading the words and fully understanding the sequence and thus the context I had arranged them in? Am I rambling shit? Has anyone actually read this far? Are you still reading? Who am I talking to? Am I trying to be surreal? Or is it 0230am in the UK and I have been sat here for the past 6 hours staring at different fractal sets evolving and transitiponing into eachother and my fragile little mind has become warped? Still reading?:love:


BTW Brainstove Oozic is wicked fun nice choice!

[eirenah]

ok lemme drop a few lines here...
IF for few minutes we forget about surrealizm as a movement, surrealISTS and surreal artwork that we know about, weather its music or video or literature or painting or sculpture, and THEN try to define what is surreal from a different angle. If in classisal aestethic theories, beauty of artwork is given by the object (hmm, flower, sun, woman...), then in modern aestethics beauty of the object is semantical, given with help of ... composition, perspective, tone... if i remember Hegel says that aesthetics of 'beautifull' is not given by beauty of the object, but by what is done for the object to become beautifull or interpreted in a different way then it really is. But don't take my usage of a word 'beautifull' as it is, but as composition that is aestethically hmm... attractive, whatever attractive means to you.
still reading??! : )) http://www.nan.hr/smajliji/icon_coffee.gif
...surreal aesthetica does include terms like reality and localization, but it goes far beyond it's specifications, and that leads to reducing it's 'practical' usage and mutating to emotions. Hopefully, the result is the new relation with artwork, less pain or beauty or pleasure, more toughts and cognition, which can also be interpreted as 2 different dimensions of reality. Or, 2 parallel realities, one above the other, objective one and subjective one. It is even sweeter in vjing, because of this improvisational factor and unability to repeat something exactly the same way as wanted which allways results with different toughts and cognitions.
ohyea i think we should be more surreal...

anyway... if we are surreal in vjing, we are giving our viewers at least 2 choices, at least 2 ways of percepting our work. but if we keep it real, they've got only one choice, the one we've chozen for them.
- surrealizm is in the eyes of beholders

[holly]

Nice!
:love:

[Loki]

So....at risk of being obtuse:rolleyes:

Surreal VJ/VA means a)to give our audience two ways of perceiving our work...
..two ways per person observing the show? or the creators intended message (or perceived intended message in deference to Brainstoves original poser) coupled with each the observer's individual perception of it..............

....OOOoorrRRR...

.....a multilayered series of messages or non messages wrapped up within a composition/show that can be interpreted arbitrarily as and how the observer wishes dependant soley on their depth of perception?

How about the music?Is that also a factor to be considered when surreal VJ'ing is to be unleashed on an unsuspecting crowd, is it possible to use the effect of good music to create an environment of sureal sensory overload?Do you think a VJ who is attempting to do this may possibly have to have a striong partnership with a music producer?Do you think that music, being the catalyst for much of the "rave" scene, could be more surreal as a source of inspiration?

[eirenah]

hmm... in my last post, i just simply tried to give my piont of view about what surreal means to me... not trying to impose it as general definition... if i had to describe surrealism in VJing i would do it that way, and in that context, yes i am surreal, as long as the viewers are... and i would definitly say YES, it SHOULD be possible to use the effect of good music to create surreal environment. but then there's another thread on horizont, about how much WE understand the music, and are we visualising it the right way. (the way our audience does or doesn't accept visuals as surreal, the same way we do or don't accept and reinterpret music in a right way...)

[input] musicproducer/band/dj --> VJ --> audience [output]
like information that can consist of less or more noises -- musician is input, the audience is output, and lots of important informations can be lost somewhere in the middle (in our interpretation and their perception)

[Loki]

:) EZ
Was only seeking to clarify the points you had made to my own satisfaction:)

I wasn't implying that you were laying down definitions or anything...I just like to understand different people points of view on t'ings and love a healthy debate!

Just probing to see what people think of the many different ways of interpreting the word surreal as a concept and as a practical exercise

Both threads seem to have touched upon something that everyone has strong opinions on and I am just wishing to explore that further, even if it means playing Devil's Advocate!!

Peace:D
Gaz:lol: