recycle bin - thread gone offtopic and now taking some new directions

[BerzalonFlange]

nice images. are those plasma screens behind the dj in the top row of pictures?

[vjrei]

Yeah, those are plasma. believe it or not, in Venezuela the rave parties are very sofisticated.

We use to have sponsors for our parties, that way, we have a lot of money to spend in production. We can do the paries by invitation and we can filter the ugly people. We usually do not have to promote the brand name of the sponsor in the screens,as I VJ I can charge more for it. Th sponsor is happy, the people are happy, the DJ's and VJ are happy, it is a win-win solution.

I want to develop the same concept in New York. I'm preparing my material to work that out, so many VJs can charge big $$$ one in a while.:D

[fALk]

we can filter the ugly people.

Oh man you surely think you are the hot shit right, maybe a little arrogant? since when is filtering out "ugly" people a good thing? Who decides who is ugly, you? You prolly look like a hybrid of Arnie S. and Sylvie S.

think about it please and make this world better.

PS: comments like those scare me - scare me a lot. And I have refused to play in clubs with "a door policy" that goes by the look of people. All those barbies around me make me sick. I want real people and real people do not all look good - its a fact of life. If you want "pretty people" around you then make your life in a high gloss magazine never turn on the news never look out the street and shoot everyone who comes in sight who does "not look pretty"... sorry had to get this off - as always unfiltered and right from inside me.

[oxygen]

i hate that kinda things too, makes me allergic.
playing in clubs with door policy.
in amsterdam there are a lot of them.
definatly 'not' my style.
plastic world & 2many drugs (mostly of the time).
but i'm off topic.
...doesnt mean that i dont like your website , vjrei.

[zap25]

It's easy to refuse gigs at places that have a door policy... usually I don't even get gigs there cuz I don't fit their dresscodes.

But it's easy to point the finger at others.
It's human to be shallow. We all have our prejudices.
We all automatically judge people in some by their looks, it's almost instinct. I've got a hard time taking men in 3 piece suits seriously for example.

I like to work with talented people myself. Even though this is highly discriminating to the people who don't have talent it's a fact of life that some people are born with talent and some are not.
For the talentless it's even worse cuz there's no such thing as Creative Surgery yet (well there are forms of creative surgery, but they mean something completely different)

[eXhale]

You have to recognize that door policies have the advantage of locking all the boring superficial neurotics in one place. During this time the more interesting people are freed from interference and can do something other than look at each others' clothes ;)

[brain]

if "ugly" means troublemakers, drunks, gropers, and people spreading bad vibes, i have no problem with it. nothing worse than a party spoiled by a few assholes. the door is not the problem, but the policy at the door. you just cant have a good time with everyone.

if "ugly" meant "not pretty or fashionable", its just stoopid...

the pics look professional, and if some people still think of venezuela as near third-world country it's time for them to make up their minds. i wished we had some of that gear in our clubs over here!

[disassembler]

With club nights with gear like your playing with now,you may want to stay in Venezuela.

But all the best in New York.

Why New York?

[vjrei]

Originally posted by brain
if "ugly" means troublemakers, drunks, gropers, and people spreading bad vibes, i have no problem with it. nothing worse than a party spoiled by a few assholes. the door is not the problem, but the policy at the door. you just cant have a good time with everyone.

if "ugly" meant "not pretty or fashionable", its just stoopid...

the pics look professional, and if some people still think of venezuela as near third-world country it's time for them to make up their minds. i wished we had some of that gear in our clubs over here!

Ugly means people that will come to your place and get drunk and create a bad atmosphere, uglie people need to be manage by security. I know Venezuela is recognized by their beautiful women but do not take me wrong. There are people that go to a place already drunk (for example) while the rest of the people are having fun and fooling around.

I'm going to NY because there is a lot to do there, Venezuela is a very small market, I'm already on the top basically and in the Venezuelan culture people will not pay for your experience. In the US there is a lot of respect about that.

I want to see if I can give a hand to the VJ community. Caracas is a test tube for new technologies. The .com were a fraud 1 years before the big companies started to crash. VJ is a big industry, we are about to feel the boom and I feel NY is a good point to start developing some concepts.

About the gear, that is what I say about using sponsors. Now, my secret is what kind of sponsors and how to make the deal and the approach. That is gonna be a new learning curve again but here works very well.

Around 1996 we had our rave parties in the "classic" way, people were very ugly, like Punks and stuff, very conflictive, but that is not the Venezuelan way to be, it was a imitation. Then, around 1988 a guy in a wheel chair started to develop small parties just for uptown people using sponsors. The thing became so well that the concept spread 2 years later. Now you have money for a good lighting, you can have 5 plasma screen and at list 3 projectors. The people are behaving a lot better and they are gatting a good party for nothing because most of them are free.

The same sponsors are developing their own parties now, importing DJs from England specially. It is a big industry but the people here still very cheap still with national talent. A local DJ can ask for $300 at most for 3 hours, an outsider can get from $5,000 to $20,000 I'm not kidding + expenses. And I'm not talking about William Orbit or things like that yet.

I'm gonna upload more videos later when I can fix a problem with the server.

[disassembler]

You may be in for a harsh reality rei. DOGGY DOG! Dawg. :nod:

HEY! NEW YORK VJ'S!!!!. HOWS THE SCENE!!!
How many superstar VJ's are there in NYC?

[eirenah]

...rei are we on the same planet?
hmm how do you make a selection of ugly people (aka drunk) @ the entrance, if there is still a chance that someone looks very fancy and pretty and NOT drunk - gets in - gets drunk... ?

ok whatever... it's not a sin to be shallow but don't share it here please...

+
"people were very ugly, like Punks and stuff"
ohhh
all you dear punks here, i as your host am giving you permission to share your views with rei... : )

rei please, don't feel obligated to try to explain yourself because with every post you're digging your own hole deeper and deeper....

oh i'm offtopic... shame on me...

about your website - is the top frame supposed to be so far to the right in relation to the center frame?

[wellREDman]

well as an old punk (ex punk? lapsed punk? )

i think ill treat this statement with the disdain it deserves

[holly]

disassembler asks:

HEY! NEW YORK VJ'S!!!!. HOWS THE SCENE!!!
How many superstar VJ's are there in NYC?

There are three "superstar" VJs, all female (well, they are all duos or groups with a female front and center): Missy Galore, Bec Honeygun, and myself.... :o

Of course there are many many wonderful, humble, and approachable VJs, and several top-notch programmers including Josh Goldberg and the "boys from Troy" aka lmnopf (VIDVOX) but only three are superstars ? beauty, glamore, and attitude. (Bec is beauty, Missy is glamore, I'll let you guess who has the attitude.) I guess there's room for one more superstar, but "ugly" people need not apply.

:cool: :P

[eXhale]

the only thing i'm wondering now is how many hours rei spends each day looking at himself in the mirror.

[unjulation]

shit man i gota be the most ugley person and know even more ugly people in the entire universe by your criteria :D

[kommy]

kill ugly people for jesus

[spark]

man, you've also got some blatantly glamoove clips in your showreel. that sucks.

[vjrei]

Do we have to deal with some complex here?

This is a VJ forums and we talk about VJ related things. I didn't mean to push some buttons and if I did I just do not care:eek:

And yes! I do not see the fun in look like crap and go to a place and feel proud of it.

If they get dronk inside and look for trouble we call security, period.

Nice people ( I mean the with nice attitude) first. I do not mean supermodels if you think that is what I'm talking about.

And no, I do not see myself all the time in the mirror but I know most of the people in the US are very racist. I have been in the US for 3 years now and I know how people react when they see a Latin looking person.

When I send a resume saying "Reinaldo Torres" and no picture I do not get an answer, but if I use "Rei" with a picture I do get an answer. That is in the US sadly, not me.

And about the side looking strange... get a Mac!:rolleyes:

[eirenah]

Originally posted by wellREDman
well as an old punk (ex punk? lapsed punk? )

i think ill treat this statement with the disdain it deserves

Punk once, punk forever Red ;)

Rei, now i see that you have the same deformation with defining people just as VJing. The same way you never mentioned VJing as art or something deeper then 'status' (we've discussed that looong time ago), you don't go any deeper with judging people...

...and don't you see that saying 'Punks are ugly', you're actually not saying anything about punks, just about yourself? (and we've discussed that too)

that's baaad m'key?

[eirenah]

Originally posted by vjrei
Do we have to deal with some complex here?.

Yeah you are dealing with hudge complex wich results with disaster statements, and we trying to tell you it's baaad m'kay?

Nice people ( I mean the with nice attitude) first.

aah in that case the problem is not so hudge, because you only have some tiny problems with english language (such as word 'ugly')

p.s. some old rockpunks would say communication breakdooown! but you wouldn't know about that one right?

[vjrei]

I was in NY for 6 month once, I have been ther about 5 times in my entire life in total.

NY is aplace where people will pay you for your intellect, and you will get paid well if you fall in to the right track.

Here in Caracas we are having a problem, people are very cheap. The same sponsors are doing thir own parties and they are hirering production houses to do everything, including visuals. They just make some clips, Resolume and that is it. They are cutting corners and Vjing is just part of the "Happy meal".

The big companies with the big $$$ are finding their way around. They rather pay $40.000 for 2 Djs from England than $2.000 for a local VJ.

We have about 5 sponsors and they have already the monopoly of the big parties. They do not care about the artistic way of the VJ, they just want to promote their product, period.

They are working only with the snob people, offering what ever plastic concept they find.

Many producers look at my work (and some other VJs work too) and in place of hire us, they make a cheap version of the same thing. Forget about leaving your demo reel some where.

There was apeak of VJing a year ago, now there is not. Besides, many kids who are studing graphic design are getting the softwares from the nedd, specially Resolume and they are charging $20 a night using their dady's laptop. That would do for the promoter.

I'm just doing some visuals right now, I even sold my switcher and I'm selling 2 of my 3 Powerbooks. The utopick thing is that I'm already full for November!

Any way, if there is some future in VJing and I can contribute in something to the comunity is not going to be in this web site or in Venezuela. It will haveto be in NY or London, but I do not have contacts in London and I like NY a lot. It is the best place to get sharp in any business.

I may go to Spain later on, in a year or two. Right now I want to see the Big Apple, it is the only place in the world where I can get in touch with the clients I'm looking for.

Beside, I do not need place in NY, I can stay at Holly's:rolleyes:

[eXhale]

Originally posted by vjrei
And no, I do not see myself all the time in the mirror but I know most of the people in the US are very racist. I have been in the US for 3 years now and I know how people react when they see a Latin looking person.hmmm?!? doesn't it pretty much prove the point about the futility of appearences? don't you think your "i just do not care" narcissism has much to do with these racists?

[spark]

"Many producers look at my work (and some other VJs work too) and in place of hire us, they make a cheap version of the same thing. Forget about leaving your demo reel some where"

i can't even take the irony.

[theAntiRay]

Hello, Im new here in the forums, have been following the forums a little bit. Only just fealt inclined to write something purely becasue of vjReis narcicistic, iresponsible....
I have to hold myself back from saying all the abuse that I want to hurl at u to prevent this post from being erased by one of the forum members with people skills.
I have seen many of your posts in the past and I feel you put vjs, not to mention people from Venezuela in a bad light. Do you really believe you will get anywhere in NY, yet alone the rest of the world with an attitude like that?

Maybee im not beautifull enough, or maybe Im from america (so I MUST be racist), so perhaps these comments will be brushed under the carpet along with the ugly people and the "punks".

WTF.

You should learn to control what you say,
Coz its easy Mkay...

peace, lurve and monkeenutz...

theAntiRay

[vjrei]

Oh guys, you can say what ever you want but I just would like to see you doing something productive in your field as VJs.

I'm just taking my business very serious. In place of learning something productive all you are doing is complaining. Do you think that have an effect on me? not at all. I learned a long time ago that people telling you what to do do not have an idea what they are doing with their life most of the time. I have to be very careful to whom I pay attention to.

It is not strange that some people from this community feel envy from some one else when this one is succeeding. It is not the first time and I'm not the first one.

I'm not narcissist and I'm not racist at all. I'm just proud of what I do and I share my thought without any inferiority complex. Sorry that in this 3rd world country we are a bit forward in this field. Maybe because we do not complain that much and we really put our brain to work on it, sadly people here are so cheap and we are falling in to a dictatorship and eventually into a civil war maybe at the end of this month.

That will only affect the ones that just have no idea of what they are doing as VJs, maybe in a year you will be doing something else.

You can keep trying to pick on me, try to pick on my work then, I haven't see a line about it and show me your stuff.

Funny is that the one that are really doing something are not complaining.

I'm 28 now, 2 degrees on my back and a lot of experience, I left high school a long time ago. No need to spend time in childish comments.

I'm just coming from performing with a Celtic band, a Venezuelan Celtic band, find Venezuela in the map and find about Celtic music.
I was the first person in this forum telling "the future of VJing are with music bands", do you remember that comment? No, well, you should because that is why I'm moving forward in this field. I talked about sponsors back and forward, many people criticized my point of view. Now I'm going to the US and you are telling me that I'm wrong? yeah right, just give me 3 months in NY.

Do not get shy in this world, I learned that when I was studding (ironically) Multimedia in Orlando FL.

I'm too tired, 3:16 am. Got to go to bed now. I have more work to do tomorrow... Vjing BTW.

[fALk]

The big companies with the big $$$ are finding their way around. They rather pay $40.000 for 2 Djs from England than $2.000 for a local VJ.


now the question is why not do your own parties earn 0$ and have a lot of fun. Maybe it might be more rewarding? Just asking questions. Or is the superstar all you want to be? Is the superstar something a VJ needs as a goal? Is the superstar really what you think it is. Is the superstar not something the media has made - a media that refuses to recognize Video Mix Artists as something in their own right (as you yourself stated before). Will the Video Mix Artist ever be something that stands up to the established Music Industry. Will the Music Industry not create their own Superstars VJs when they feel the need to it (see above). Will they ever even care about you? Do you think you can stand up against the Music Industry on your own? Do you really think they are recognizing you - when they are not even recognizing 9 Million downloaders in the US alone? Just some questions for you.

And beeing in contact frequently with some superstar DJs (Westbam - Paul v. Dyk) - I really do not want to be a superstar of the MusicIndustry - you loose everything and gain only money.

As for the ugliness comment before. I had thought that I might have missunderstood your comment (as english is foreign language for both of us) so I see you explanation about the drunk people - but I will get 10 people in front of you and you tell me who are the troublemakers? I do not think you can see that through their looks alone. A Redskin who looks like a nazi but is a punk for example? Good club security is inside and should be calm and nice (but also enforcing when something goes really wrong) the door is for searching bags for weapons and taking care of the tons of people going into the club - it should never be exclusive for anyone (except of course if he can not stand on his own feet anymore).


And then you say :

There was apeak of VJing a year ago, now there is not. Besides, many kids who are studing graphic design are getting the softwares from the nedd, specially Resolume and they are charging $20 a night using their dady's laptop. That would do for the promoter.


Maybe you shoudl have been the one getting the media attention towards the whole scene. Maybe you should have put yourself apart with good visuals (instead of trying to earn tons of money outright). Getting oversea acts that get paid more then locals is something to be witnessed all over the world (in the western world as well) and I have been in the position where I have earned about 10 times as much abroad then for a local gig. Its a fact of life - overseaers have the fancy factor. Try to get yourself oversea gigs then?!
Then you might could also tried to educate the "daddy laptop mixers that study art" about the vj scene. Trying to organize them together- telling them how your vision of a Video Mix Artist Szene in Venezuela should be. that would have involved non paid community work though. But maybe with a large enough group you would have had a real impact in a small country like your home?

[fALk]

Do not get shy in this world, I learned that when I was studding (ironically) Multimedia in Orlando FL.

I was in the staates as well (for school not for study) - that was a while back.
I remember coming back and thought I was the shit (some of that is still left inside me - sorry about that). I fell on my nose with that - more then one time. Right and left people started hating me. The?berBigProjects (tm) started to fail (while at the beginning they all looked as if they would succeed). I took a LONG time off of everything - Doing Productive Work - Going out - Beeing a Good Kapitalistic Person - that was from 1996-1999. During those 3 years I had a LOT of time to think what went wrong what I did and what was my problem. Well I found that my roots where different. My roots where about sharing - socialism and the trying to help people - in the staates they made me forget about all that. It was always me, myself and I that was teached countless of times - so that I could succeed. Well the general public opinion around me changed as well and a lot of people recognized that we had a very very great oppertunity to teach the world about socialism what it really means and what might be bad about kapitalism. And the most important point was about caring for others , caring on a local scene - connecting people and forget about money. If you look at the world today kapitalism is poised to fail for not so long and with it all the concepts you stand for. Instead of caring for your local scene to stand on their on foot you decide you just forget about it and care for yourself. That is what makes the world an angry place.

I have seen and lived in two different systems - socialism and kapitalism (also called democracy). While for a short while the kapitalistic side has won over the socialism there is more and more sentiment toward the social side of things and more and more people look back and think "hmmm maybe we should have not killed the system alltogether and should have incorparated some of the benefits of it into a new system". Its not so easy to paint it black and white but the world will see a change. A change that starts small with local activity that is connected globally. Lets talk again about all this in maybe 5 years :)

[Amukidi]

For once I'm lost for words!

[eirenah]

did some post editing huh Rei?
now i see you erased (or i can't find it) the part of your post where you said something like it's your problem if they didn't let you in that kind of clubs (where you need to look fancy to get in).

i can just say i'm very happy to live in kinda 3rd world country where it doesn't happen, and you can only see it only on telly. this is the place where the most punk-hippie-looking girl can be a superstar actor and where bodyguards with 4 grades of primary school don't decide about who can or who can't get in. a country like that must be your worst nightmare.

"if there is some future in VJing and I can contribute in something to the comunity"

contribution to the community?
if you really cared, you'd be staying in Venezuella (where everything is soooo wrong and people are sooo cheap as you say) and try to make some changes.
think global act local. that's contributing to the community.
the way you do it, the think-local-act-global is contributing only to your wallet.... Or even worse - you're leaving Venezuella because it's just getting too small for your Ego.
I feel that when you take all your 'pro' attitudes to NY, those 3 chicks will eat you for breakfast...

I was the first person in this forum telling "the future of VJing are with music bands", do you remember that comment? No, well, you should because that is why I'm moving forward in this field.

We remember every word of it.
It was the thread where we told you that U2 and Floyds did it centuries ago and you're not even 1 inch foward (but few miles backward)

[unjulation]

Oh guys, you can say what ever you want but I just would like to see you doing something productive in your field as VJs.

A.V.I.T.'s not a bad example of something productive that V.J.'s are doing and its for the whole V.J. community and the wider publick as a whole, not just one inderviduals ego

I was the first person in this forum telling "the future of VJing are with music bands", do you remember that comment? No

i'm with spark on this one, the whole band thing has been discused hear on these bords well before you came along so i wouldnt claim that you were the first on that one

[Amukidi]

From Brian Eno's "Oblique strategies" -

"Listen to the quiet voice".

good advice around this thread

[eirenah]

Originally posted by Amukidi
From Brian Eno's "Oblique strategies" -
"Listen to the quiet voice".
good advice around this thread


:yep:
BTW Amukidi -- Eno brothers are a great choice for second improtant influence in someone's life : )
(but first one is the greatest offcourse : ))

[holly]

Wow, this thread is too much. I'm glad to see everyone being so insulting without loosing their temper or launching into personal attacks, name calling, and vein-popping.... A little over a year ago this thread woulda been shut down and probably erased because it already would be out of control culminating with death threats....:eek: :P :rolleyes:

I'm laughing at all the "enlightened" viewpoints ranging from punkrock schoolgirls who have a disdain for under-educated men, and socially-minded German artists who despise thin women, and White South Americans who don't like being mistaken for Mexican. Sorry Rei, but there are plenty of racists ALL over the world, even Europe and South America. Clubs are by definition shallow meeting places for people of similar race, class, and finances (and also sexual orientation, but the first three apply even more). Matching egotistic and groupist(?) statements with more egotistic and groupist (ok, I made up that word) statements doesn't make the situation better.... Everyone is just accelerating the this with their own "us vs them" mentality. Why is it more valid to hate pretty people than it is to hate ugly people? I gotta say, I fell in love with plenty of pretty punks back when I still had a human heart. Rei says "ugly" means drunk, and while I doubt that was what he really meant (ugly means ugly, drunk means drunk), has EVERYONE HERE been refused admittance at THE SAME club in Venesuala???

What is this "badge of pain" everyone is pinning on their sleeve? Obviously Rie struck personal a nerve here but I can't believe that it was his intention to insult you all by saying there was a velvet rope at the front of the club.... Has no one here worked a gig at a club they wouldn't normally attend on an off night? Rei sees VJing as a job. That's fine, but it means he will make certain choices (not all of them for aesthetic reasons, so calling him on content doesn't change the money he's making). Many many people here see VJing as an artform ? aesthetics and scene ?ber-alles.... And never the twain shall meet. I was told by Pixy that I'd never be allowed at one of his events because I had a liquor sponsor once. Ha ha ha ha, I'm still crying about that. This isn't the first time someone mouthed off about "bottomfeeders" or "hobbiest" or "bedroom VJs" not making it in the club system.... Sure it's an assinine statement (and as idiotic as saying girraffes are a failure because they never learned to fly), but what makes this time so different than the last? No one here respects anyone (anybody), but why take it so personally this time. RED, I've seen your photo. You may be punk but you ain't ugly.

There's a reason why 20-somethings don't rule the world. They still haven't recovered from being teenagers!

[kommy]

http://www.fortdrastic.com/flyers/jock_flyer.gif

[syzygy]

I'm actually inclined to put myself in the firing line and say that I think that Rei has been treated a bit harshly here.

I have no problem accepting 'ugly' as a description of bad-people-who-will-fuck-up-the-club.

Haven't you gusy ever heard of a crowd "turning ugly" - you don't think tghat literally means that people's appearances change do you?

Even the dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ugly) supports this (definitions 2 - 5)

I also have no problem believeing that in Venezuala, 'punk' means something different to what it means in the Uk, and that it might mean a gang member or similar.

We play at plenty of clubs that have a door policy. Not the sort of 'fashion' door policy that everyone is getting annoyed about, but the sort that is there to protect the safety and enjoyment of the clubbers. I'm pleased that blatant gang members don't get let in to the nights that we work at (last time security got lax at our regular club, someone pulled a machete on the dancefloor)

I don't even have a problem with clubs having door policies that wouldn't let me in - if they won't let me in then I probably don't want to be there...

Is everyone certain that they're not being a little bit unfair here - do you really all think that _anyone_ should be let into _any_ club, in _any_ state of mind?

Dan.

[syzygy]

On the other hand, I have to say that I find it hard to see how Rei's ego is justified by his content, which doesn't look particularly original to me, and agree with those how have pointed out that if Rei is serious about contributing to the communit then developing the scene in Venezuala would seem more positive than heading for the golden pavements of NYC.

Dan.

[thomase]

I have to say that for the most part I'm with Rei here!
1. I do corporate work. Let's be honest - someone has to pay for our equipment and it's not cheap!
2. I see this a a business or more craftsmenship. I haven't done that much but yo gotta start somewhere. Get off the high horse calling it art when you play in clubs just to get paid, make an exhibition! To me it's like Curt Cobain who kept saying he didn't want to sell that many records - but signed a record deal...:confused:
3. About Rei's ego. That's his problem. Why bother?
4. Door policies. Well they exist and I have been happy getting in clubs where others didn't.... The big problem here are stupid bouncers. But anyways if you want to get in a certain club, dress up or down or whatever. If that's not your cup of tea, the club isn't either!
5. punk = ugly - well the basic idea of punk is to aesthetesize the ugly. that means the goal of punk is ugliness.

If you don't like Rei's work or attitude or his work - fine. But still: leave him his point of view and don't condamn people who are trying to make money. Or are you living off daddys money????

[murph]

I'd like to make a few points.

1) Venezuela and other parts of south america are very different culturally than most "western" countries. I dated a girl from Caracas for a while, she would definitely frown at me for thinking about going out in anything but my best, and she usually looked 3 points above that. They don't go out in jeans and a T-shirt, that's just the way it is, and people who would are just slobs or punks or ugly or whatever. I'm glad she encouraged me to dress up, it's not my natural tendancy, but it's fun and makes you feel kinda good about yourself.

2) Rei I really really hope you don't judge the US by your experience in FL. Just remember how much trouble those people have conducting a simple election!

3) Rei you're not gonna get anywhere in NYC with that content. I'm surprised you haven't done better with your three powerbooks. You'd be a lower-end VJ even here in the midwest. (I hate to be so harsh, but you opened yourself to it) Spend more time on the production side, it looks like you'd enjoy flash based stuff a lot.

4) NYC does not have the restrictions on cigarette & beer advertisements that you do in Venezuela, as you've pointed out. If the advertisers were going to be throwing raves in the states, don't you think someone would have figured that out by now? (well some of them sponsor, but not nearly at the level you're talking)

5) We have I think three clubs here in Minneapolis with dress codes. I've no interest in two of them, as the style and crowd is really lame, but one I've been meaning to check out, mostly because I advised on the video system there, which sounds like it's awesome. (all sorts of plasma screens and such) I'm on the guestlist, but most nights I'd have to go home and change if I wanted to go there. So I don't. But even if I did get in, and even though every sat night they're playing techno, it's a guido & stellas crowd, really just not my thing. I feel much more at home at the quest where's a much bigger mix, but the point is I just won't go to these clubs. Screw it. Hell, there's a lot of clubs with no dress code that I'll never step foot in because I don't like the crowd. One of my favorite bars in town I usually feel overdressed for, but it's a cool place with interesting people so I go.

6) I AM however sad that I'll miss the fetish ball in London Nov 1st because I can't possibly afford that much PVC/leather. *one tear*

[wellREDman]

5. punk = ugly - well the basic idea of punk is to aesthetesize the ugly. that means the goal of punk is ugliness.
[/B]

NO NO NO

the basic idea of Punk is Do It Yourself,

that anyone can do whatever they want to do.

best exemplified wby the back of the damned's first Album

a chord chart and the words
"heres three chords, now go form a band "

its got nothing to do with anaesthetising anything



[i]Originally posted by murph
[B6) I AM however sad that I'll miss the fetish ball in London Nov 1st because I can't possibly afford that much PVC/leather. *one tear* [/B]

im sure i can lend ya some threads murph

;)

[eirenah]

Originally posted by thomase I see this a a business or more craftsmenship. I haven't done that much but yo gotta start somewhere. Get off the high horse calling it art when you play in clubs just to get paid, make an exhibition! To me it's like Curt Cobain who kept saying he didn't want to sell that many records - but signed a record deal...:confused:

..But why is it so common here that if someone says "art", someone else has to add "oh, you're not a pro' or 'your daddy supports you financially'. Why is it so impossible for some people to believe that it is possible to make art, enjoy it, get the money, pay the bills, and not to step over your own moral/social attitudes while doing it all...

[thomase]

well, red read what sociologists say about punk and you'll see that IT IS ABOUT aesthetics ( or ask malcom mclarren about it...)

eirenah - well because art oftentimes doesn't pay the rent, corporate shows do. I flew to barcelona on own exoense to show my art with my av act at the off. Got nothing for it but experience and fun (so nothing only means finacially). Did a corporate show on saturday with a 30 000 euro-beamer and got paid for it.
you can do both but i think if you're sponsored you don't have to worry about money and thus can concentrater on your art.
And think about that: How many artists did advertising too?

[eXhale]

Originally posted by thomase
well, red read what sociologists say about punk and you'll see that IT IS ABOUT aestheticslol these armchair intellectuals always come up with perfectly rational explainations for everything, they are oh-so-clever. ;) why not just listen to the actual people involved?

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by thomase
well, red read what sociologists say about punk and you'll see that IT IS ABOUT aesthetics ( or ask malcom mclarren about it...)


sorry mate but i have a policy of never listening to the babble that sociologists make up about everything.

and McLaren was actually very little to do with Punk, he was just a very clever self publicist who latched on to an already extant movement and surfed it to the top.

[thomase]

and put the sex pistols in vivienne westwood. so much for aesthetics.

[Meierhans]

http://www.findsinternational.org/images/punk.jpg

Its sad how world changed....
There are to many listening to "punk" music but inside they look like...


http://www.andersoncollectibles.com/products/trolls/punk.gif


Beeing a punk or not is not a question of hair color or dirty old clothes. Its the question if you accept the old rituals and way of living and support em, or fighting against em. Fight does not mean stones or hits, speech and truth work much better. (Some punk misunderstood that...) You could be a punk in head. Your fight could be hidden, so you get chances to act at the right places to get a little little change. Stones only change temporary.


I don`t mind people looking ugly.
http://siai.eurazir.kz/deface.jpg

I just don`t like if they stink!!!
http://www.ecologixsystems.com/images/products/stink.jpg




Let there be a rock!

http://www.aucon.de/pic/Punk.JPG

:P

ADD: WOW, THIS is visual communication! ;)

[eirenah]

Originally posted by thomase I flew to barcelona on own exoense to show my art with my av act at the off. Got nothing for it but experience and fun (so nothing only means finacially).

so, your conclusion is based on... 1 flight to Barcelona?
that's ok but it doesn't mean noone else can do it (if you can't)

And think about that: How many artists did advertising too?

Depends: you don't think graphic designers are artists? they for shure do advertising stuff, and trust me it's not a rocket science.

[thomase]

That's rubbish!
I don't base it on 1 flight, it was an example! My a/v project is so uncomercial that I just couldn't sell it. But that's why I do corporate work.
Talking about graphics designers, they don't go around talking about being an artist and blaming other people if they make money. What do want eirenah? If I make money you're accusing me of selling out, if I don't you talk about me not being able "to make it" wtf? Just because I see vjing mainly as craftsmanship instead of art you're attacking me (or rei.)
So what's your point????


Oh and by the way: most so called punks only replaced old rules with new ones.

[oxygen]

"Oh and by the way: most so called punks only replaced old rules with new ones."

hmm...so.....?
whats your problem? or...ehr... point??
anything wrong with that? why?

[vjrei]

fALk:

I had the same experience like you did. One thing is to grow in a system and another thing is to become part of it at one point of your life.

Many people from my country (who is basically left wing) get pretty nasty after coming from the US because "is their interpretation" of the US culture. You can apply the same thing on both sides. People in the US generally are not warm at all but they are very supportive ?? in our case that is a complicated thing to understand. Many people from the US come to my country and really love it, but then they ask them self, why things are not working around here? because too much worm and friendship lead to corruption, specially in the government. If you are my friend and I own a bank I can give you $100,000,000 with no interest, because you are my friend since high school.

The world is just like that. Yesterday I was talking to a friend of mine about this thread, she did her high school in FL. I made the comment about the "ugly" people. The problem is that the ugly people from Venezuela is different than the ugly people from the US. The US is 90% mid class, Venezuela is 90% lower class. When you have a club in Venezuela and you led in everyone in 2 month the club losses its prestige and go bankcropsy. You can not support a club based on beer, you need to sell expensive stuff. The people from the east side listen to trance an d house music, the people from the west listen to salsa only. The people from the east have money the people from the west doesn't. The people from the west will touch every girl butt and that will end up in a fight (with guns), the people from the east respect each other.

We are not racist around here but we are way to classiest. And of course we have our reasons too. Caracas was a wonderful place until early 80's when the poor people from Colombia moved to our city because of the Colombian guerrilla. All that people lives in the ghettos. Imagine 80% of NY surrounded by the lower lever class people from Mexico. In 20 years you will understand.

About the money thing and letting people in or out, there is a different approach to the situation if you are in a advertising agency environment. As the other guy said, in Caracas we are very snob, specially my generation. That is why we are falling in to a civil war too. We have a president who came from the ghettos but now he want to destroy the hi and mid social levels, but he just got a Jumbo Jet very close to Air Force one while we now have 90% of people that make less than $1 a day!!! The extreme side of the socialism or communism is worst than the capitalism. At list in a capitalist country (like the US) people will respect your propriety, physical and intellectual, something that doesn't happen in a socialist regime because everything belongs to the people and the people are every one and no one at same time.

About me having 3 PowerBook's. Try to get 3 PowerBook's in a country where minimum wage is $200 a month. The best I can get with sponsors is $1000, and that is every 2 or 3 months.

2 Year ago 1$ was Bs.700,000. Today $1 is Bs. 3,000,000 and the best things is that we can not buy $ any more. It is prohibited since January (communism). Now, try to get 3 Powerbooks under those circumstances. I have being saving all my money from this year and all I have is $4500!!! I may get another $4000 later on. The 256K DSL cost $80 here. We are paying everything in $ but we are making in Bs. from 2 years ago. 3 Powerbook's are a huge amount of equipment. And still all the Djs from England are very impressed with my work. I may be booked to play in Amnesia Ibiza some time this year or the next.

That is what I say, I have been in the US, you now nothing about this country. It is not your foul, it is your political system that want to keep the people from the US isolated from the rest of the world.

A piture of me while I'm not VJing as I should be. I was in the paper in Miami a few months ago. VJ and politician :o

[vjrei]

I just fixed a problem with my web site, there is a new video of a rave party where I was doing the visuals. It is 33MB. I will try to make it shorter next time but is very good.

Yeah, the DSL will be costing you $320 a month! that is in proportion with Venezuelan costs. I should be making if I was in the US about $4000 a month right now.

Of course I'm moving! I want new Powerbooks! Capitalism is a bless some times. :rolleyes:

[sleepytom]

hmmm
your blaming of the soical situation in the south on communists and socialists is quite strange - surly the lack of economic resources for the avarage person in the south is a direct consiqunce of the excess of wealth and power held by those in the north / west.

sure your polititions are corrupt but your example of a bank owner lending a million dollars to his mate intrest free is quite funny - it is exactly the same in the north except the bank owner is a corperation and the sums of cash involoved are orders of magnitude higher and will never be recouped as they are not lent intrest free but given/stolen/lost

fuck it mate all people in power are corrupt (you would be too) but don't fall into the trap of viewing your local situation as an isolated problem - it is the same in most of the world and its only like this because of the actions of the west

[eirenah]

thomase: That's rubbish!...Talking about graphics designers, they don't go around talking about being an artist and blaming other people if they make money.What do want eirenah? If I make money you're accusing me of selling out, if I don't you talk about me not being able "to make it" wtf? . So what's your point????

...and who exactly is blaming people for making the money? who is accusing you for selling out??? WTF??? Can you quote me on that part please?

You ask me what's my point. Should i repeat? I just think commercial stuff does not exclude art. period. high class advertisment, very commercial can be art. very commercial music can be art. very fancy VJing can be art. period. that was my point.

aren't you a little bit paranoid about this accusing issue? i really don't care what you do and how much money you get from it. let's just stop defining artists as pepole who live on the edge and don't have anything to eat ok?

[thomase]

then i obviously misunderstood your point eirenah. sorry. cuase that's exactly what I was trying to say...

[vjrei]

eirenah

I would have to ask you to leave this thread since your points of view are very negative and you are focusing in issues out of the topics here.

Afew years ago there was aproblem between the US and Rusia becacuse a crisis with some nuclear missiles in Cuba. President Kennedy did something that saved the world from a nuclear disaster. He just listened to the good things and avoid the bad things between the little comunication he had with Rusia.

That is something really good to learn about North American Presidents.

I sugest you to do the same thing with your life, the bad things that doesn't affect you just let them go.

[vjrei]

Originally posted by sleepytom
hmmm
your blaming of the soical situation in the south on communists and socialists is quite strange -

Dude, we are living an invation. Just imagine this, Don King (the manager of the Mike Tyson) winn the elections in the US some how. Now Don Kind is very upset by the white people. The first thing he does to take the control over the US is start to put his people in key positions in the government asisted by Fidel Castro.

That sound impossible in the US but here it was possible, just because I do not represent the average Venezuelan in level of education. 80% of this country is literally mentally challenge about what their future should be, a heritage of previous governments.

Then Don King start to import Cubans and all the terrorist of far east (we do have Alcaeda bases in Venezuela). What about the army? there is a comunity of people loyal to Don King on the top positions.

Remember that Don King has all the money of the US to buy what ever he wants. Beside that he increases the taxes to 16% and he locked the foreing currency exchange market. The inflation goes 200%. All institution are taken by Don King people, even the supreme court. All that takes 4 years. And the Opposition to the government are made of 80% black people too.

I'm making the contrast with the black and white people so you can really see the difference.

Now, the europena countries are aware of the problem and want to do something... no problem, Don King has all the oil of the US to negotiate and keep them away, even free oil.

We are giving free oil to Cuba, now Cuba export oil!!! with the US, some of our best oil plants are negociated with the Bush family already.

Corruption all the way, I have to buy my $$$ fro my trip to the US in the black market, that is a fortune. If you come to Venezuela with $500 you can spend a month.

It is a pain. We are expecting a civil war very soon around here.

[unjulation]

i'm realy sorry vj forums but this last coment has realy wound me up, edit this responce out if whanted/needed but i realy find this kind of arogance,ware an indervidual canot take critasisium, such a piss take to the whole atitude thats going on hear

1) eirenah as far as i see didnt atack just reacted to some questionable coments posted hear in such a way that was not a personal attack

2) if you realy think that was what happend within the whole cold war situation and the cuban missile crisiss i would look a little deeper into it

3) take your own advise I sugest you to do the same thing with your life, the bad things that doesn't affect you just let them go.

sorry i realy had to say this its realy got to me :help:

[wellREDman]

im with unji on this one


oh and the cuban missile crisis - that was resolved by kennedy not blinking first in the most scary mexican stand off ever,

bigger balls, not peace and love

[psychodude]

One is one, the other is the other.

The way I see things is:

There is what someone does, and there is the person himselve.

Vjrei produced vj-set in Venezuela and is getting more and more proffesional with it. (if isn't proffesional already).
Step by step he allows us to monitor his steps how he's doing and what he's going to do.

For this I am very thankfull as I am trying to do the same (becoming proffesional that is).

This as : what one does


Who we are is a different story.
Vjrei may have opinions about "ugly" people or the politics in the world or the exact temperature of marshmellows when held in the fire, so what?

It might say something about him, but it has (to my opinion) no influence on what the guy does.


for the record I might be ugly

Kris

[eirenah]

Originally posted by vjrei
eirenah I would have to ask you to leave this thread since your points of view are very negative and you are focusing in issues out of the topics here...I sugest you to do the same thing with your life, the bad things that doesn't affect you just let them go.

what else to say.
sorry but you're stuck with me as long as you're @ general chat, and as long as other 3,650 members don't decide to kick my hostess butt out of here. untill then... i'll just try not to get too subjective with you... and unfortunately :scared: it's not up to you to worry about how someone should behave on VJF

(and having your own idea of 'offtopic' - btw this thread has gone offtopic in misteriuos way from VJREI.com comments on your website - to sponsors, ugly people, 'contributing to the community', big companies, small companies, you moving to NY to earn some more powerbooks, racism, problems between US and Russia, your expectation of civil war - and it's all written from YOUR keyborad, and none of that had nothing to do with your website which was the topic at the beginning. but noone stopped you when going offtopic because (guess why!) we all knew this conversation will take some new, interesting directions, and hey, it's general chat. who can draw the line between on/offtopic. And even if it's all offtopic, it's kinda good because everyone got the chance to hear your point of views on all that stuff you've been writing about, so yeah i'm guilty for letting you go offtopic @ the very beginning! (i still feel the guilt for all the Punks out there who had to read all this on thread i'm hosting, and i didn't do anything about it!))

[fALk]

First I want to say that this discussion is really getting interesting. Never thought that it would hold out to a page 5. :)

Rei as for you comments on communism, civil war etc.

You have a tool for communication. three powerbooks - MAN YOU HAVE POWER in you country if you can see it. You have problems in your community, you think that the corruption is hurting your friends and people around you, you say you do make much more money a year then some of the people around you in their lifetime. Well then you have extreme power. USE IT! Show the people with you tool that there is a problem. Get off with the "rave visuals" and start making "social visuals". Show the people that their surrounding stinks. How many more powerbooks you want? The problem with socialism communism kapitalism is that they are prown to fail as people have power over other people - the only solution would be dezentralisisation and that starts with you. You have the awesome power of pictures to really make a difference. Showing muppet show clips might not help anyone. Its distracting the people from their problems like a drug. mix them with pictures from the ghettos you are talking about from the lives of the people. Wake up the people - you do not need to be their "leading figure" but maybe you start some thinking with this in the most important group for your country - the young people - people who get brainwashed by (american)TV every day and forget to care for other but for themself. People who do not respect the private goods that one might have. Its not so much of the system but maybe the spirit of the people living in such systems. Saying that socialism is about everyone own everything it is just to oversimplified view. Sharing within boundaries might be a better approach to that


You know if everyone would think like you the US would have taken over the world and we would have Mr. Bush as World leader with no other authority - you think that is good? I would love to comment more but have no time as avit is approaching FAST - hopefulle after avit...


shameless commercial below :
-------------------------------------------------
as for those at avit interested in some of the ideas above and anarchism in the VJ realm make sure you visit our avit(as) presentation and the VideoMixProject Presentation as well. Important thoughts to be presented and some hands on (anarchy) action in planing.
-------------------------------------------------

[oxygen]

i totally agree with falk.
this is taking vj-ing to a higher level!!

[holly]

This thread is out of control. We have a forum hostess making what I'd call pretty close to personal attacks on Rei. Eirenah, come on. There's a difference between making a bonehead statement which is what Rei did, and downright belligerence which is what you are doing. Get off this kick and stop with the personal attacks.

Falk. SHUT UP!!! It is not Rei's responsibility to become a political target in a country where the government creates drive-by shootings to remove political opponants. If you feel so passionately about what a VJ should do, then get off your self-rightous socialist high-horse and go be an activist in someone else's country instead of cowering in your little powerless nation that has done absolutely NOTHING to stop the fascist dictators of this world, and I DO mean George Bush! Do you think he would be in power if Europe wasn't full of frightened pacifists? YOU don't live where Rei lives and you DON'T understand the seriousness of the situation. Rei doesn't live in a country where everyone is a spoonfed socialist who gets to pretend he's an "anarchist" and make bogus political statements because he has the freedom to do so! READ THE NEWS you jerk! DO NOT tell someone to go and get themselves killed! UGH! You are talking like a rich kid who wants to hang downtown with punks and phreaks because he knows if any trouble happens he's back uptown at rich daddy's house. If you have an agenda GO DO IT and stop telling other people to put themselves in harms way.

This thread is making me so fucking embarassed to be a part of this community! I am about to shut down this thread NOW and anyone who wants to attack someone can start focusing on ME! Eirenah, take a clue from another host like NE1 and bow out of a hot discussion in your own forum! You have made your points and your opinion is clear. There is NO NEED for you to keep making an attack on another member in a thread about his work, and I don't need 3,649 other members to back me up to say you are acting inapropriately! You have BOTH made obnoxious hypocritical statements that are much worse than Rei's because you are saying them from a self-rightious point of view. No one is perfect, but both of you are so adamantly off topic I am also asking you two to remove yourselves from this thread and take your issues up in threads of your own.

[eirenah]

Holly let's clear this situation because it's really gone too far. I think i'm doing good job hosting this forum (otherwise i wouldn't be here) and if you and rei don't think so, and if at least all other forum hosts and moderators agree with you offcourse i'll be more then glad to give it to someone else who will do it better then pixy and me.

but i just can't be quiet when someone says punks are ugly (or allways drunk, which is completely wrong too).
(and btw i was never a punk, i'm not an ex punk, not even near, but at least have some respect for them)
also i can't not react on statement like 'vjing is not art' - when to some people here it is. i can accept something as subjective point of view but not when someone is underestimating some important aspects of VJing. what personal attack are you talking about??
if you think hostess aren't allowed to express their own points of view then i'd rather not be a hostess.

as i said, i'm completely guilty for letting everything go offtopic but i left it as it is because some interesting stuff is happening here and closing the thread isn't solving the problem - the same issues would come up sometimes later, maybe in different thread or on different forum.

[eXhale]

Holly, I don't quite get you on this one. You accuse others of doing personal attacks and being self-righteous and then you launch a full-on attack on everyone you disagree with. :confused: Anyway I agree it would be a good idea to start some new threads instead of continuing on this one. Remember the 42-page long thread on what is a VJ? There are some interesting discussion topics, it would be a shame to lose them in the jungle of this thread.

[eirenah]

yup eX, you're right.
everything is here now.

now with this new thread title, we can't get offtopic as much as we try ;)

[wellREDman]

yes we can if we start talking about rei's showreel were no longer on the topic of this new thread

[eirenah]

:)))))

[sleepytom]

Holly if your country wasn't run by a warmongering little shithead who's sole intrest in power revoloves around his personal / family money / power trip and who has consistently denined the existance of international law and the courts that are set up to impose it then we wouldn't of had any war with iraq - its the american peoples responcibility to remove there dictator - just as it should of been the iraq's job to remove sadam if they so desired

FFS holly go and visit somewhere where there has been a war in living memory - there is good reason why the people of france / germany do not take war lightly and it is not something that amerikans understand.

lets face it our leaders are the ones who took to war - it is all of our responcibilitys to stop them. suggesting that bush is in power because europe is "full of frightened pacifists" is possably one of the most fucked up things i've ever heard - what would you prefer that we start a campaign of "shock and awe" on new york? hell we could flatten your poxy little city and washington too would that make you happy? fancy seeing your mate brains displayed on the wall?
hmm no i thought not
Falk was suggesting ways that ray could help his people to overcome there problems by using vjing as a medium to express a message - and it is all of our responcibilitys to try and make the world a better place for our fellow (wo)man

embarassed to be a part of this community?
fine
leave!
no don't leave really we quite like you sometimes :)
wow what fun i thought you had to go to TBC for this kind of :flamethro :flamethro :flamethro :flamethro :flamethro :flamethro :flamethro :fridge:

[julez]

holly, i just want to start by saying that almost every signle one of your posts has been profound in some way and has really gone deeper that the rest of the thread but that last one really wasnt nething at all. To me it just sounded hypocritical. Why should Europe dispose of a dictator when the American people voted him into government. Maybe you should be getting angry with the right wing posters on this forum rather that someone who really can't effect the result any more than vj rei can change his countrie's political situation.
doesnt sound right to me :confused:
personally as well i think that maybe eirinah wasnt looking at the situation objectivly but that is for ALL the administrators to deal with.

[julez]

maybe the language could be cut as well? whats the point?

[thomase]

I HAD actually decided not to take part in this discussion anymore because I thought there were too many misunderstandings and did not want to be misunderstood myself.

But Holly as much as I respect you as a fellow vj and your art as well, what you say about europe is totally rubbish!

Just a few things to think about:
1. Germany's constitutional rights forbid that ANY war should be started from Germany (there's Tom's point about being afraid of war).
2. The US NEVER experienced war in thier own country. It's easy to send people to kill other's if you can't be effected yourself!!!
3. Why the hell do you have a president bush whose first action was to leave the kyoto protocol, then ignored every UN-resolution and wants the american soldiers be except from possible international tribunesaccording to the geneve conventions?


Why don't you Americans do something about your divtator?

Iraqu DID NOT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION - USA HAS ALREADY USED THEM IN NAGASAKI AND HIROSHIMA AND I DOUBT THAT THIS WAS THE LAST TIME!!!!!!

:grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr: :grrr:
peace!

[cat]

I really do think americans should maybe look at some pictures of the entire cities that they have destroyed around ie Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, and maybe some pictures of London/Coventry etc (iraq/afganistan/vietnam), then take some pictures of the remains of the twin towers, and realise that in other parts of this world people have seen destruction far worse than americans have EVER seen for longer periods. How much did the Twin Towers affect the US Psyche? How much do you think the destruction of entire cities must effect the pysche of these countries, especilly as everone in NY is supposed to know a victim in the twin towers how many would know someone if the whole of manhatton had gone? this is reality in most other countries around the world, the US is the exception, and while I dont want to just start an anti-american thread here but it really fucked me off when US senitors started the european scaredy cats lines and Im not going to stand hearing the same bullshit from an Amercian in conversation. The US has personally killed many many millions in the past century, i really think you guys ought to look at that destruction and ask yourself if it had been commited angainst you wether your attitudes would be the same.
Yes I am a Pacifist
Yes I do think the twins towers was a tragedy
But I dont think the death of 3000 rich people justifies the retaliation killings and imprisonment of many more thousands of poor people.
The whole "WAR" as it is called is just big buisness flexing it imperial muscles. You work in media you should recognize bullshit when you see it.
I'll shut up now....
except to say you yanks really ought to get out more

[Lara]

Well we've been trying to stop the war here with visuals, (www.raya.org.uk) Raya have been doing stop the war gigs, and look at the work Tom has been doing with stuff like the 'Can DU' tour.....

I do understand Holly's point that activism can be life-endangering in countries like Venezuela, and perhaps we should reflect fully on the consequences of advice given. But fAlk's point is fair enough, and its Rei's job to interpret it.... and to be honest, given the strength of fAlk's views on the forums, I have no doubt that if he lived in Venezuela he'd be out guerilla projecting everywhere! The real point is, let's be a bit more sensitive to EVERYONE'S backgrounds... be it Venezuelan, American, European. We don't know what politics have inflected people's backgrounds and formed their opinions, and we have a diverse list of countries- from my Northern Irish troubled roots, to Croatia struggles, even pre-Berlin wall demolition politics.

Go easy :cool:

[littlecatalyst]

woah! lookit all the fun I'm missing out on while stumbling through my neighbouring country.... i definltley do have some comments to make about this and that...

but first off: Meierhans, gee arn't you just the biggest cutie??
loved your commentstyle... dont stop

second: Kennedy started the mess. The bay of pigs would not have happened if jfk, the hawk-in-doves-clothing didnt provoke the shit out of Castro. it's not that he was being like John Wayne and didn't blink first, he was reckless and ego driven and nearly killed everyone. I get disgusted when i hear people wax on about how great jfk was, they seem to think that he was the 60s he was mlk and that that he was his littel bro--- he was none of those, and if he were around a few years ago, monica lewinsky would have OD in a 'suicide' just like a few other famous. y'all outta read a little chomsky on this one, kennedism was a blight that is still infecting america to this day (ahhnold anyone?)

tom i'm glad your politics is as bang on as your VJ knowlege

here's what pisses me off, if youre asking; the Western World wastes food everyday, grain is burnt so that the prices can stay stable. mean while theres like 35,000 children starving to death EACH DAY here on Planet of the Crazy People.... do the math, thats close to 400 Million BABIES since '73 (thas not including the starving adults or teens were talking about infants) so, um the price of cons stays stable? so um, ADM and Cargil can toil the soils of the earth and spray every molecule in our bodies with the latest chems from monsanto? so the markets stay healthy? GODDAMN! :grrr: makes me wanna kick some ass (and i'm a non violent pasasive canadian)

now, as for Bush II: fuck him. he's goin down like his daddy did. even if you win a war (which he didn't, unless im mistaken and some american soldiers aren't getting blown up every day in our new vietnam) people are getting sick of him, know he's incompetant (I heard since ive been here that now only 52%of teh people think he actually won the election... down from %62 before 9/11) lets just hope that he doesn't go down swinging...
my bet is still on limp dick cheney offing him and grabbing the crown, but seriously hes got one year left and lets just hope he doesnt go down on syria and the other 6 countries they're aiming at before that year is up.....

as for living in a place where there was a war, you are right, the last war in or near montreal was 1812, so not that many reminders, but take a stroll through east berlin (and dont say there's just one berlin guys cause the demographics doint lie) in teh west a lot of the mess has been cleaned up, but in the east its hard to walk down any street without seeing the bullet holes in all the walls. it is awe inspiring and awfu everyone should know innately that this is wrong. sick thing is that one of the plagues we have on Planet of the Crazy People is that sopme get off on this kinda thing

....goddamn!

[holly]

Why should Europe dispose of a dictator when the American people voted him into government.

First off, we did NOT elect him. The majority elected the other guy. The Supreme Court (currently run by conservative judges) pulled what was an unbelievably hypocritical and partisan decision which effectively voided any ability to recall or revote. It IS a scandal, It always HAS BEEN a scandal, and even for American media the war is becoming an issue with the current govt lying and misdirecting 9/11 and rushing through unbelievable and shocking amounts of "homeland security" legislation. Most people here believe 9/11 would not have happened if not for Bush taking over. New York City and NY state certainly did NOT elect him and believe me, we are well aware that WE are the targets for everyone's hate INCLUDING the rest of the backwards, uneducated farmlands that make up most of the country. We are target number one, and yet the areas that Bush protects are the middle of the country. We all marched against the war. It didn't stop him. I protested right away and lost friends (friends I didn't need). You KNOW I have a mouth. Do you think I didn't try to make everyone uncomfortable? Do a search for every time I used the word Bush. There's plenty there, and we DID NOT elect him!!! Has everyone forgotten that???

I'm never going to defend this government, and for your information we don't ALL start wars over here!. LittleCatilyst (Canadian) was in town for EyeWash this week and he said something really clever. He said the UN shouldn't be diplomats from every country, it should be New Yorkers from every country because New Yorkers are already use to dealing with all different races and cultures and everyone adjusts to accomodate without (hopefully) losing their own cultural identity.... And that doesn't mean everyone behaves in some gender-neutral midwest amalgram assimalated populations. It means when you talk with a Jew you know what will piss them off, and when you talk to an Arab you know why he washes his feet at work, and when you talk to Koreans you know why they hand you change funny, and when you talk to PeurtoRicans you know why they don't like Mexicans, and you start to understand why people are doing what they are doing because it is part of their culture and not just because they are "stupid" or "arrogant" or whatever you have always misinterpreted. From what I've seen Europe is extremely homogenious culturally and racially, except at the fringes where all the problems seem to be. This HAS to create a false sense of the world at large being all the same..., just like all the rednecks in the middle of the US who think the world should think and act just like they do.... It really doesn't work that way. Cultures on the otherside of the planet really ARE different, with different beliefs, experiences, and problems. Cultures DON'T see eye to eye, and maybe never will. They DON'T hold the same values, and they DON'T all have the same Euro-centric socialist goals at the end of the day.

Rei HAS protested, he's sent me photos of HUGE marches of what looks like literally millions of people crowding onto highways and blocking all industry. Falk's opinion that Rei should be using his job as a VJ to protest is like saying you should use your job as a secretary to protest. What will that accomplish? Stealing stamps and copy paper, or in this case blinking infomercials and political slogans at drunk yuppies. Then once you are fired what do you do? Don't shit where you eat. Fight where and when you can, but you will need your job as a resource to keep fighting ? it's not like there are so many new opportunities when everyone is expecting disaster. Since Rei's job is being a VJ and he works in velvet rope clubs, how long do you think his boss will tolorate an "un-club friendly" atmosphere? Political flag waiving is fine when you are in a very stable government and showing in a basement technoclub to college students, but when political opponants are shot in the street and people dissapear without a trace you learn to be more careful.

And Sleepy Tom, if you look at history you will realize it is impossible to dethrone a dictator from the inside.... That power is part of what makes them a dictator. Controling the government, then the military, then the media. Duh. They wouldn't be dictators if they could just be voted out! THIS is what I mean when I say that Europe has turned it's back on the world. They don't want to get involved, yet they are so quick to cluck and tut tut when they don't approve, but their most powerful reaction is to turn their backs.... Like Europe did SOOO well at getting rid of their own dictator about 60 years ago.... Or the Frenchy dictator before that! Yes, thanks, don't worry, we'll take care of it just like Europe took care of the Nazis, and Russia took care of Stalin.... What you get when you "let the American's take care of their own dictator" is more war in the Middle East, more colonializing, more raping the resources. The US was the same attitude just before WW2 and they hoped the commies would kill the fascists or the otherway round, but what does it concern us...? And most Americans have never even heard of the Kyoto Treaty. Where were the US sanctions? Where are the blockaides and the vetos in the UN? Why are there not huge tarriffs on all Japanese imports? I never noticed any change in the price of computers or video gear.... Where are the consequences for Bush pulling out of the first global treaty ever? We have no power to get rid of him. We tried the legal channels and they failed. What we need is a show of support against Bush. Hard sanctions and hard tarriffs so the Americans can wake up from their bubble and realize the world DOES have power to keep them in check. After that, more support of the critics inside the country so when the media falls we can still get the messages across.

Now we learn today that the UN has unanimously voted to help the US in Iraq??? We had hoped that Europe would organize against Bush and remove his influence, embarrass him on the world stage, but now it seems like he's here to stay. Even the big media is being bypassed by Bush as he turns to smaller and smaller rural news souces to put out his propaganda, because the big networks have become too critical trying to show something the Americans can relate to: dead Americans in Iraq. His next goal will be shutting down critical media and it has already started.

Ah what's the point. Go back to AVit. We'll still be here when you get back. Maybe Rei will even be in NYC by then and you can get us all in one bomb. Yeah, like Europe will ever do anything but talk.

I hate this thread. I have a Swiss friend who reports from the UN and she gets so upset because when Belgium stood up against Bush for war criminals and he threatened to pull all aide money from Chile and other third-world nations, and then Belgium had to back down because it was like Bush was taking hostages and putting a gun to their heads.... Yeah the situation is more complex and way more important than some dumb antagonistic thread on a VJ forum that started because everyone fancied themselves punk rockers, but what do you want? Let the dictators stay in power until they all fight themselves and there is only one mega-dictator with all the ammo in the world. That's about the size of it right?

Just remember BUSH WAS NOT ELECTED. Now cluck and tut tut away.

edited to add: Why doesn't anyone ever threaten to bomb Texas?! That's where all the energy mafia is weilding it's power from.

[zap25]

Bush pisses me off.
Things that piss me off inspire me.

The reason why Europe can't rid the US of Bush is the same reason the US (AND Russia AND the UK btw) could rid Europe of Hitler. Bush simply is president of a country that runs the show.
Now I could probably devise a plan to put a bullit through Bush junior. The problem is that the above remark alone has probably ringed some bells somewhere.

The UN can't embarras Bush, because Bush has already showed that he considers the UN insignificant when push comes to shove.
The Bush gov has enough allies, when they don't have enough they'll buy allies. On average they're $10M a pop.

I love this thread.
I love it cuz it's so bloody human.
And it inspires me.

Yea we live in a miserable world. And it's miserable because not enough people want it to be better hard enough. It's miserable because enough people don't care or are even quite happy it's the way it is.
That's probably the most sad part.

But hey, I just spent enough money on one meal to feed the average 3rd world citizen for half a year.
I'm a hypocrite too.

[disassembler]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH.........................

War is on the streets EVERYWHERE. YOu can't rid the world of dictators. Dictator is a human trait. Just doesn't have to be the most dominate.

If people don't die then people can't live. It sux. Stop breeding to start feeding. Straight up.

So you feed all the starving peeps. You use ALL the food available. Those people need clothing, produce waste (shit) and need land. That takes land away that grows food and provides safe living space. Now you have less everything. Those people breed and now there's more mouths and more need.

There is no EASY solution. IT's easy to blame others. Those that seem most angry need to take responsibility for the worlds problems, for within them hate and greed lives.

The only change one can make is within themselves.
Change yourself and change the world. Everyone is an example for everyone. So why isn't your country healing the world. We all live in one land called earth. Why hasn't your land solved its own problem. There is no us and them really. It's a illusion (excuse) as why it exists. People don't like taking credit for the bad. It's everyones problem. And everyone is to blame and responsible for change.





:nod:

[eXhale]

Originally posted by holly
Rei HAS protested, he's sent me photos of HUGE marches of what looks like literally millions of people crowding onto highways and blocking all industry.the rich people's protests in venezuela did not gather millions, although the US media (AP/reuters) did everything to show this as a "proof" that everyone there hated the "evil dictator" chavez who didn't want to follow the US rules. these protests created by the big media were quite ridiculous, and even more the "strikes" which were in fact CEOs/etc blocking the factories to prevent workers to do their job. all a big joke, and rei has been happily repeating the US-generated propaganda for ages here.

BTW the whole US vs. europe thing is quite ridiculous. neither the US nor the european governements represent their people. if the US attacked iraq it's because saddam hussein threatened to start selling his oil in euros, which would have been a complete, total economic disaster for the US. the US economy is fuelled by these petro-dollars. the french and german governement were against the war because national companies had good contracts with saddam, and of course they would have loved to gain economic advantages over the US. now they are back following the US because of their military force (the only thing which matters in the end) and they hope that they'll be able to get a small part of the pie if they are "good pupils". this is the wonders of international politics.

[fluchtpunkt]

all the people in this thread blaming the 'others' for all sorts of problems in this world really make me sad (& sick)!
in an intercultural discourse that is the most stupid thing one can do. one can't spit in the face of the persons one wishes to address & then expect them to agree & simply shut up! it's already more than difficult enough to communicate cultural differences without being insulting, shalow or trying to force the 'other' into some stereotypical frame!

please: RESPECT!



...because apart from that i, too, think this thread has been quite inspiring.



may there be peace :love2:

[thomase]

Let me just add a few things.

What the hell can WE do against fucking bush????
You have the most powerful military on the planet and remember that this idiot has put as in the same line as for example lybia. us army is present all over the place and guess what happens if somebody really stands up against them? afghanistan or germany what difference does it make?

Oh and one thing YOU forget Holly: the us supported bin laden as long as he fought against the russians sorry soviets. the whole world tolerated hitler cause they thought he could stop the commies.

WHY DID THE AMERICANS PROTECT THE OIL IN IRAQU AND NOT THE MUSEUM????

what do you expect from us europeans? we did try to stop bush he ignored the UN!!!!

quote: From what I've seen Europe is extremely homogenious culturally and racially

lol

and all africans are the same and got rythm - yeah right!

[KillingFrenzy]

Agree or disagree with Falk's opinion, I tend to discount any arguement (Holly's) that begins with SHUT UP!!!
The second, less reactionary explanation, actually made some sense.
As to the "you don't know what its like to be in a war" theorem. I'd like to point out that the number of emigres that specifically escaped war-torn countries to come to the US means that a great deal of people, especially in big cities, know what it is like to be in a war.
To dismiss the 9/11 bombing as acceptable in the face of US policy and previous acts is to basically lower the rest of the world to our level of violence.
Unfortunately, a great number of people seem to eat up the idea of maintaining a violently aggressive stance on everything from religion to sexual preference. My youthful anarchic optimism about humanity has lately been giving way to bitter nihilism. I have little faith in the majority of people to figure out how to live together. Perhaps some sort of inbuilt evolutionary mechanism demands that we keep beating the shit out of everyone else to stay on top of the mountain. Maybe sharing is too far out of character for a species that's made it this far by tromping on everyone else.
Perhaps the noble mole-rat will someday live a comfortable coexistence on a nuked-peaceful planet.

[holly]

Nicely put KillF. Has anyone ever told you your online name is a bit different from your personality?

I don't know all the details of the situation in Venizuela. All I know is pictures I've seen. It clearly was not just CEO's blocking traffic. I don't necessarily think it's better to live in a country with one dictator and a 100% poor population, than 20% middle class and 79.5% poor (and 0.5% super rich?). What I'm getting at is I can see why you hate the Super Rich industry barons, but isn't a 20% middle class better than none at all? Isn't it moving in the "right" direction and hopefully growing? An entire country can't wake up and have indoor plumbing. Removing the economy doesn't remove other problems. Stalin supposedly slaughtered more Jews under the guise of Communism than Hitler under Fascism, and was I there? No, so maybe I have a false sense of history. But I've met more than a few Germans (and Swiss) who deny that the holocaust ever happened and still blame the influence of modern jews on "holocaust propaganda".... I don't believe them either. People see the world from their own point of view.

I met a woman from South Africa who swore that the Broadway show Sarafina was just propaganda and a scam to get Black South Africans into America. I don't have to go see the show to feel some skeptisism about her ability to be non-judgemental on the subject. I had a Jewish friend who was outraged to learn that most of the people around her wanted international intervention on Isreal's Palastinian colonialism. Did it make me hate her? I don't know. I felt I learned something about her, and I think I learned that not all decisions come from within. Some are cultural, racial. There is a tribal influence in humans that is very strong.

Me personally, My Grandparants escaped death and imprisonment by passing for European (White). My Grandfather is Apache and was born during a time when it was perfectly legal to shoot and kill any indian on site. While there were no laws stating so specifically, there was clearly no pretense that a white person would go to jail for murdering an Apache. There was a war you see, right here in the U.S. It was a war and a genocide program, so let me tell you when you claim there are no wars on American soil you are wrong. No, the Apache didn't have tanks and airplaines and they didn't have the priveledge of using Western war machines. They were a little more like the Palastinians watching their property be taken and their families herded up and put in concentration camps so quaintly called reservations, and hell if I don't see the most stupid interpretations of Indians today by Euro-American media as this "noble savage" getting high and eating dirt and worshipping bears and Euro-Amercans thinking reservation life is so great and that Indians were better off before the Euros came, because eating scraps of weed and living in some of the most squalid conditions on Earth is a really "natural" way to live... Ah, the ideals of Europeans with non-squat toilets who believe Indians would rather shit in the woods and use a rock as toilet paper.... So I can't really agree when some European says that Amercan Natives in Venezuela are better off without Rich Euro-American middleclass values because even though the Euros came and killed everybody up here in the name of colonialism, my own family made a decision to reject how White people saw them (as a small step up from animals) and work hard labor and shit jobs for a non-squat toilet of their own, and the hope that their kids could grow up and go to school and have a regular white-collar job or simply any life they chose.

The one thing I agree with is that the people have very little influence over their governments, irreguardless of what country they are living in. Basically the WTO runs the show. Products and companies have more and more rights while people have fewer and fewer. And now every nation in the UN has their finger in Iraqi pie and that suprises me. Vietnam was a French colony war. WW2 was a German colony war. Palestine is an Isreali colony war, and Iraq is a US-Brittish colony war. Thomase, what do I wish the UN would do against Bush? I guess I wish they would stand up to him, call him a war criminal and begin an agressive no-trade policy everytime the US government does something that is clearly against the world. Britian and Aussie too who seem to have slipped by international hatred while gleefully sending troops to Iraq.... Now the UN has signed on in Iraq and all the papers are calling it a "victory" for Bush. I could sit here and bitch that the US problem is really a Euro-problem because the government here is simply a Euro-colony left unchecked by Europe, but that doesn't make much sense when I've personally benefitted from the Euro invasion, and my Grandparents still pretend to be Euro-American, even though in reality they are simply American.

I also know that over 50% of the United States does NOT participate in voting in elections because what's the point when it's just going to be another too consevative Euro-American at the helm. What's the difference in voting for a kick in the head or a slap in the face? I include myself in that +50%, and before you all claim that it's my fault Bush was "elected" (which he was NOT) please note that NY State carried the other guy, as did most of the country so MY vote would have done nothing, until Florida (one of the most statisticly backwards and uneducated States) pulled a weird election scam..., and WHO is govenor of Florida? Bush's brother, son of CIA chief G Bush 1st.

[vjrei]

Oh, my good!

We are really looking forward the AVIT convention around here.
_____

I just attached the picture Holly is talking about. Last year we made a march of more than a million people. Imagine a march from Brooklin to 97th street above Central Park. That is how big the march was.

We went all the way to the presidential Palace asking fro the president resignation with our flags. And you know what happen? the president cute all tv transmisions and sent his people to shoot at us.

http://www.fuerzasolidaria.com/video.html

I was behing the guys that were pushing the consetion stand.

This is 3rd world cheap comunism. A bunch of apes, I do not see anything in what comunism and leftis can help humanity. Comunism is a cheap way to keep all the money and power for just one small group and they will kill any one under any excuse to keep the control.

The problem with Chavez is that he is not working a lone, he is not isolated, he is part of the Forum of Sao Paulo, an international organization that is integrating all the left partys in Latin America + is associate with World Social Forum. Their primary target is the US and they will use anything to destroy the US economy.

We have alcaeda training camps in Venezuela and Cuba transfered all their chemica weapons laboratories to Caracas. The US knows that because I know that, but Venezuela has oil and Chavez is negotiating with Bush. Now, are you expecting Bush to get in to Venezuela now? of course he can't.

Every time I'm more in to politics I find a complot inside another complot. I realized we are not under the control of anything, everyting that is on tv is there for a reason. We are all manipulated by a couple of people some where. When you reach the top there are not capitalist or comunist, they are all the same. The capitalist are selling weapons to both sides in my country as well the comunist, everything is based on power and money.

[julez]

down here we did everything we could to prevent a war. 1.5 milllion people marched in the peace demonstrations. Thats 1/13th of the WHOLE population.

i am constantly dissapointed by the lack of opposition from the UN secretary General and while i respect their decision, France and germany didnt support the war because they had economic intrests in iraq. The point i was making though holly was that even if less than 50% voted for him why did even the amount who did vote. What is wrong with the culture over there where everyone thinks that people have to kill, kill, kill. From my experiences americans are the most hospitable people until u mention something slightly unpatriotic and then the tide turns.

Change can only come from within. Do u think the country is going to change just because the un gets rid of one dictator. Im not saying the majority of people support bush im just saying that enough support him to affect change on the others. Congress is dominated by aging polititians who believe that all muslims are terrorists. Maybe they should realise that only one country has ever been indicted for war crimes by the international tribunal.


guess who

[holly]

Well, I will say this as an explaination, not as a defense. Europe sees the US as one country, but it is not. Even the government is structured as 50 individual nation states. "Barely United States" is what it should be called. The States actually have more power over their own people than the "high" Federal govt. It is this way by design from the very beginning because as individual colonies with different economic structures and different values, they could never agree to one form of government.

Now imagine everytime a country like Austria (and I am only using as an example, not trying to attack any specific country) appears to be about to vote in a racist govt, the world went and blamed Norway and called Norway fascists and etc. Now also imagine when Netherlands legalizes gay marriage everyone turns to Italy and demands to know how they could allow such a thing that is so un-Catholic?! Why doesn't Italy do something about this! The U.S. is not one country, so how do you deal with 50 little countries/States that will never agree on anything (and you must remember that the U.S. covers so much geography that there are very real differences from State to State on economics, politics, values, religion, and racial background... every aspect of life. It is not just Sports or town rivalries as it is sometimes portrayed). One state here is the size of France, but has a tiny fraction of the population. There is no analogy that fits that I can explain to you. Most visitors do not see the real US. Most Americans do not see the real US. Before I can tell you anything, you must be willing to accept that not everyone thinks like cosmopolitain city dwellers, and there are very real and profound lifestyle differences that cannot be reconciled.

So they set up a 2-part govt: The first "house" is the Senate where every State gets 2 members. This means that an agricultural state like Kansas has as much power as an industrial state like New York, even though in reality Kansas has very little pull or influence over the rest of the nation it still has a lot of power in the govt. You can imagine if you only get 2 people to represent your govt you will send 2 very powerful (usually conservative) people and diverse opinions simply are not heard. The second "house" of the govt is more reasonably represented by population: New York has many Representatives while Kansas has only a few. While this better reflects the diversity of the country (Blacks Gays Women etc), the power is diluted and this house is not as strong. Industrial states enjoy being international, they like finance, they have big cities, the ecology is a concern, and the population has more equality ? these are values that benefit an industrial nation. The agricultural/natural resource states do not like international politics, they do not support equality, and they do not support the ecology BECAUSE these "liberal" politics harm the ability for the state to use its natural resources and agriculture to succeed. How can an agriculture state like Texas succeed when industrial states like California can import cotton, oil, and even labor at cheaper prices than Texas can provide? It is a priority of the Texas govt to prevent open international policy ? in fact, I would go so far as to say Texas (and a majority of Texans) would prefer to close all borders and force the rest of the states to buy resources only from them. (Ever hear of Enron, the Texas energy company that single-handedly collapsed the California govt?)

It is easy for me to say that the nation should all bow to the values that make industrial states strong because I live in an industrial state and those are my values, but the programs that benefit some harm others. I was speaking of Apaches earlier, and talking with a friend from Oregon (an agricultural state) who had many dealings with the Nez Pierce Indians. She was talking about a Federal program in the 1960's that took Indian children off the reservations and forced them into boarding schools to learn English and get a Western education. The results were cultural genocide. The Nez Pierce were culturally intact, having their own language and schools and resources. Even though they were on a small reservation they held on to their way of life as fishermen and farmers, so having their children taken from them was devastating to their way of life. BUT, where I grew up the Apaches are so poor and living on the trashiest driest most horrible land that they could not survive. They had no electricity or water, no food, and no education, They did not even know their own language any more, so the boarding school program actually helped an entire generation of Indians get engineering degrees and educations that allowed them to help their people. What worked in one state was disaster in another.... Who was right? Geography played SO MUCH importance in the program helping in one area while harming in another.... So that is an example of why our governments stay local, as opposed to having one super-govt that rules everything. Agri states must hold on to their power or the industrial states would railroad them out of existance and the center of the country would collapse economically. It is a constant fight, and the govt has proven again and again that it cannot be sensitive to everyone's needs simply because of the vast amounts of geography (and differences in the way of life) involved.

Now there IS a Federal government, a "high" national govt, but this is mostly created to deal with foriegn policy. This is the President. It is ironic that a nation mostly made up of foriegners has very little understanding of foriegn affairs, but that is the way things are. Only occaisionally has the Federal govt overrided the States' control, and this is usually in very extreme cases: Alabama's race riots in the 60's, the work programs and social security in the 30's, but again this is rare and the times the federal govt stepped in with one overriding policy it is a guarantee that someone somewhere suffered because of that policy not being the best for all states. So the U.S. hates "big government", and this is a cry you hear at each and every election from both sides.

Now if you look at the 2000 election, and you look at where people voted for Gore and where people voted for Bush, you will see that people in cities and industrial areas voted for Gore and people in rural areas voted for Bush. While the country honestly is about 50-50 industry and agriculture in population, there are larger land masses that are agri, while industry is localized around seaports. Also, the area that is growing in population is the cities and industry, NOT the farmlands, but this is not reflected in the voting process. Each state gets a few votes, but the individual population has no vote. In other words, you vote at a local level and then all those votes are turned into one (or a few) vote(s) and then that is passed on to the next round. A consevative in New York might as well not vote because he will be overwhelmingly outvoted in his area = he has no say in who will become president, likewise a liberal in a rural area has no say either. There are only a few states (called Swing States during election time) that actually could go either way so bizarrely these few states are generally considered to have the power of the elections. This is approaching a breaking point because you must remember this govt was formed hundreds of years ago when there was no mass communication and everyone was farmers. It is a system that is proving to be outdated, but changing it means many many people lose power and say-so in the way the country is run, so it cannot be changed overnight. During the 2000 election it was so close (not by population, but by land masses) that the final decision went to Florida: a state with a huge minority population, but a minority who has no power, no money or wealth, and no resources. Florida is one of the worse states because it has few industry and poor farmland, it has very little power, but it has a Bush, Jeb Bush little brother of G Bush. When Florida said it wanted Bush for president there was an outcry across the country. Calls for a recount and everyone said it was suspicious. Suddenly we were all aware of how ridiculously out-dated our voting system is, and even how outdated the equipment we use to vote is, especially in a poor state like Fla. It seemed like the government would be held accountable and forced to modernize, at least until a recount could be done, then the crazy thing happened: The Supreme Court, which is another part of the govt (the only part that is NOT elected by the people) said there would be no recount and Bush would be President (and to be fair, it was NOT unanimous within the Court). The Supreme Court is selected by former Presidents, and we have had Regan for 8 years and old Bush for 4 and only Clinton for 8 years and these guys don't retire until they die.... It isn't hard to guess who has stacked the deck with more judges. So we were dupped by our own govt, and the fair process we expected was usurped by a faction that was not elected. That is history. The otherside backed down rather than create an arguement and a civil war. I don't know why. Liberals are often seen as weak because they will not fight, even when the need is justified. In My opinion, neither guy represented MY rights and NEITHER should have been president, but no one cares what I think. I don't choose to pick the lesser of two evils..., if I have no say then I choose not to vote. I am not alone. There is no way to say "NO!" in an election except to withhold my vote.

I have no control over the govt here. I did not invent it. I have no personal control to deconstruct it and make it better. When it comes to my personal health and my personal rights I do not see either side representing my interests. I am a little unusual in that I grew up in a very rural area of Texas and now live in NYC, so I can see that people think differently (very very differently) in different parts of the country, and I try to be aware of ideas that maybe I don't agree with, because I DO know that one policy does not suit everyone, and I understand that while it is easy to say things are fucked up and should be changed, actually making those changes is not an easy (or universally fair) or obvious thing to do.

I do not fight to defend this country, or it's Euro-descendants who raped and killed my people with their shitty one-sided policies of White-uber-alles and the stupidly naive "rainbow" idea that all people really are just alike under the skin, because I KNOW that is not true. I'm marrying a cop, how does that sit with the liberal artist policies of most members here, and how do you sleep at night knowing that your prejudicies are JUST AS WRONG as the people you don't like? I hear all the time about how cops are evil and fat and eat doughnuts shoot innocent protestors for fun and I think that has to be the most stupid thing I've ever heard coming of someone's mouth, especially when they think they are oh so cultural and sensitive. I hear all the time how everyone must be forced into the White middle class Borgious values of gay and straight, when MY culture never acknowledged such irritatingly limited perceptions. We had all kinds of fun here before the Euros came, chocolate and cocaine and deathsports and transsexuals and everything, so you will just have to acknowledge that not everyone holds Euro-White culture as the ultimate in human acheivement. So I'll thank you not to attack me for something that happened in my neighborhood, and ask you to stop being so retarded and threatening to bomb NYC when you would be lucky to have a city so full of diversity and world-awareness on your shores. Open your eyes. Every nation in the UN has signed on in Iraq (sure with some reservations as to how the money is split-up) and that should make you wonder exactly who is running the show and exactly whose interests are being served by every government.

No one voted for Bush to kill people, Julez. Although if they looked at his Texan politics they might have seen the death penalty statistic shoot up during his reign. They voted for him to make a "stronger" country that protected the agriculture and natural resource (energy) businesses. I didn't vote for him because his humanitarian policies are disguisting and because he collapsed the Texas economy, but as I said before, no one cares what I think.

[agsystems]

ok
I think everybody's agreed that war is a bad thing, and that most americans didn't vote for GeorgeW...

maybe next election the sane americans will stroll down the road to vote, and try to find a nice sane president, and maybe explain some fundamental morals to the not so sane americans [then dodge the bullets/knives/verbal abuse]

perhaps a VJ can do something about this, perhaps not...

seems like everyone's arguing the same point here, apart from some slightly dodgy american hating, which is pretty stupid. there are georgeW types in every country, plenty here for sure, there are always xenaphobic types, who knows why... but they aint all in america, as this thread proves.


cant wait for someone to find a way of getting by without oil... :grouphug:


and governments,
and war,
and...etc...etc...

[WordVirus23]

that's why the US citizens have the right to bear arms... if the government ever tried to get too outta hand... or some politician gets too "uppity"... you'll notice their life expectancy gets real short, real quick. the nice thing about the massive amounts of media in the US is that we don't have to kill the bad ones physically anymore, we can just shame publicly until they lose power (public approval)

..james...
graphic designers are some of the most talented people I know, and usually, they create so much at their day jobs, they don't create much actual art in their free time. and then there are people like us.

Originally posted by vjrei
Dude, we are living an invation. Just imagine this, Don King (the manager of the Mike Tyson) winn the elections in the US some how. Now Don Kind is very upset by the white people. The first thing he does to take the control over the US is start to put his people in key positions in the government asisted by Fidel Castro.

That sound impossible in the US but here it was possible, just because I do not represent the average Venezuelan in level of education. 80% of this country is literally mentally challenge about what their future should be, a heritage of previous governments.

Then Don King start to import Cubans and all the terrorist of far east (we do have Alcaeda bases in Venezuela). What about the army? there is a comunity of people loyal to Don King on the top positions.

Remember that Don King has all the money of the US to buy what ever he wants. Beside that he increases the taxes to 16% and he locked the foreing currency exchange market. The inflation goes 200%. All institution are taken by Don King people, even the supreme court. All that takes 4 years. And the Opposition to the government are made of 80% black people too.

I'm making the contrast with the black and white people so you can really see the difference.

Now, the europena countries are aware of the problem and want to do something... no problem, Don King has all the oil of the US to negotiate and keep them away, even free oil.

We are giving free oil to Cuba, now Cuba export oil!!! with the US, some of our best oil plants are negociated with the Bush family already.

Corruption all the way, I have to buy my $$$ fro my trip to the US in the black market, that is a fortune. If you come to Venezuela with $500 you can spend a month.

It is a pain. We are expecting a civil war very soon around here.

[BrainStove]

Don?t forget I?m Venezuelan and I?m living in Vzla too... Sooo

A civil war soon????... Bahhh!!! Plain BULLSHIT, it?s just a bunch of Brainless, Whineing SNOBS spreading that bigfat pile of shit around.

Justice people, J_U_S_T_I_C_E is the matter, justice as much and far beyond as this Imperfect, Screwed, Greedy humankind may allow.

P.S. Think again your discourses... WatchOut!!!

[julez]

holly said
No one voted for Bush to kill people, Julez.

i wasnt saying that people voted for bush to kill people i was just saying that the majority of white middle class america seems to think that having a gun to kill people is a perfect reasonable idea.

Over here there is a satire show called CNNNNN which makes fun of the whole manipulation by media issue by presenting a parody of a cable news channel. They do real interviews with people (one of the "reporters" is from america) and while they're sometimes stupid they can be really telling. In one of them they asked people on the street in texas whether we should invade khazakstan (spelling?). Most of the people interviewed said that we should on principle even though they might not be a threat. Most didnt even know where khazakstan was. This to me is telling of the attitude towards other people.

Public approval is a fickle thing. Arnie was able to brush off a groping scandle and become governer without any policies just because he is a celeb


edit:
im not trying to be an american hater and im not saying that all americans are xenophobic or anything. Im just saying that there is a problem.

[fALk]

Holly wrote:

Falk. SHUT UP!!!

I always thought that the american society was about FREEDOM and in that you have the very FIRST AMMENDMENT to your contitution and that says FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

You know why you have this in your constitution and why it is the very very first ammendmend that guarantees you this right? It is the most important tool for a human beeing to make their thoughts go out of their brain. it was a brilliant idea of the founding fathers of the united staates. Its the only tool that you can use to make a difference. And speech - as I understood it - is not just spoken word.

The funny thing is that the post you where refferring too I was exactly saying this: SPEAK OUT. speak with the tools available to you to to make your voice heard. This tool is to us the VMixing. Rei was complaining about his government and about the social problems in his country - that are largely based on an (corporate)american "soft" invasion policy- I was only suggesting (and not forcing) to think about using this tool to at least show his problems with the whole situation. How he does it or if he does it is what he needs to think of and is only in his personal power. Maybe he can interweaf those pictures in his usual set and make just let out some fine points. Maybe he plays on the edge and tries not to step over. Maybe he decides to step over and get radical about the visuals. I do not know about where you perform holly - but I sure have the freedom to show political aspects in my sets and I do believe this can be put into an "entertainment" show without disrupting the audience from their party emotions-

In the end neither you can make me shut up nor can any government ever make each every people shut up. So by showing "political" aware visuals he could generate thoughts in people or encourage people to speak out against the problems and maybe one day the critical mass can be reached where a system collapses on its own. It took the east 40 years but the "peacefull" revolution that took place should be an example that some things can go by the will of the people if they demand it in a majority.

And about your comments that I should go somewhere else "to help". Trust me there is still enough going wrong in my own country that should be fixed or set straight and I try to put those things in "social aware" tidbits and include them in my set.

i learned what your government is about as I went to your high school system I was "enlightened" of the great american constitution. What this same school system tought me in at the same time might shock you. SPEAK OUT. THINK FOR YOURSELF. BE CRITICAL OF EVERY RUNNING SYSTEM.

Why?

I had to read 3 books in the year I was there (senior year in Custer HighSchool South Dakota). Aldus Huxley "Brave New World", Arthur Miller "The Crucible", Georg Orwell "1984".

and that made me aware of my background. those books explained to me what went wrong in our "eastern" system but they also tought me to look very very closely at the systems now in charge of running the western world. What I found was not what I expected. Not all things rosy not all things perfect (like suggested to me before). It was like a magic curtain liften and ones it is lifted there is no turning back. I started to read more and more into politics and I personally find the current system flawed and poised to fail over the not to long run. What I personally see for myself is to think about a successor that might please humans more then money. A system that makes use of modern technology and put it to use for humans - not against them - a very very dezentralized system where the individuals have the control themself. where you can choose where to live your life - your community your friends - where you might be able to smoke a joint and not be kicked out the club. A system where you can be yourself. I do belief a changeover towards such a society can not take place in violent ways. The changeover will more likely be one that comes from individuals - those that find themself without power - it will be slow and we will first have to hit a very hard rock bottom before things might get better. I like to encourage every one to think about their environment - and leave the money out of the equation. Those are all individual humans you going to see and not every one choosed to be in the place he is found now. I do think every human deserve the same way of live.

Things like smiling construction workers in Tibet - girls the age of 19 houling rocks that I couldn?t lift and grim highheeling girls in NewYork with a bag full of shoes and the 101st miniskirt make me think if fundamentally we would not be better off without all the material goods money can buy and if we should get back to a more basic living using the technology we have developed over the years help in that rather then use those goods to destroy ourself our minds our core feelings as human beeing. Maybe we should get back to real communication on a human level. The internet brings us some of this back and has already transformed this society to an extend. It has brought together a lot of likely minded people. So do not make me shut up because then someone else might make you shut up and then not me not you have a chance to shape this world to your or my liking. It will always be the mix and consent of all ideas that will make things work. One over the other will never work. In the end we are all on the same level and our survival depends on our intelligenz. throwing a bomb and killing an individual will never get us anywhere on neither side - the intelligent side is the one that can stop killing children it will be the one admitting mistakes. I highly respect you holly - I really hope you rethink your "shut up" phrase as this comment made all your other comments worthless to me.

[fALk]

holly wrote:

All I know is pictures I've seen.


please reread this sentence. reread it. reread it again. whose pictures you have seen? what media gave you that pictures. who is controlling the media that send you the pictures. who is behind the companies that show you those pictures. Look at your media landscape. look at your first amendmend. look at the first sentence again.
Do a google news search on venezuela. There are tons of opinions found in google news - and pictures you will not see on cnn evening news. left and right side opinions. from what I read so far I think there is no black and white in venezuela. socialsim - corporate issues - american involvement in bombings. But what made my head spin round: there is a recall (something rei has not made us aware of yet) - this recall is initiated by the current government in the wake of the protest. The recall will have 19.000 international observers - more then in any election in history. Let the people decide if they want the current president or not. lovely way to decide. I am not in that country but reading through the articles I get a very different picture then what rei is making us believe here. but I am far from telling anyone who is responsible of this mess as neither rei nor the news sources are to trust because both are highly subjective.
Because of the very reason of mistrust of sources I did go on a journey first to tibet and then to israel - two countries where I have been so mislead by media information that I really got sick of it.
Go there and come back with different opinion on the world as it is. Nothing can be trusted that you get not from your own seeing. The only thing you might be able to other then going to the hotspots of human society is gathering as much sources you can get your hands on and maybe then you get a glimpse of the real world with their problems out there - but be sure that it will be very far from anything living right there at the moment. Reading news and seeing pictures is like looking through a big rosy filter that someone made to make you think of something else and forget about the real problem as fast as possible.


to phrase matrix movie:

Blue Pill or Red Pill ?

[elbows]

Ive wanted to comment for a long time on many thigns Rei has said about Venezuela, but obviously my knowledge is rather less as he lives there and I dont. But I did spend lots of hours trying to understand the situation, because of the attempted coups etc, I wanted to know what was going on.

Here is my understanding of the situation, and I think it explains why Rei feels like he does, and why Brainstove thinks differently. I hope there are some other people from Venezuela who can tell me if Im vaguely right about this or not...

Venezuela was basically a puppet of the US, and the small percentage of middle/upper class at the top did very nicely out of the ararngement. The vast majority who live in bad poverty didnt do so well.

Mirroring a pattern which has spread across much of the region, a socialist eventually got in (after earlier failing to get in by force). He instigated a range of policies that made him a "dead man walking", challenging the US over important issues such as oil, big money things where the stakes are high.

Anyway I will go on for too long if I go into all the details about the coup, the control of the media etc, but the bottom line is that the society is more obviously divided, and in quite a volatile way. There are very great differences between the classes because culturally there isnt a huge amount in common. The priviledged class have grown up with indoctrination to western US values, and so feel themselves to have more in common with US citizens than the majority of their countrymen. Businesses have a lot to lose under Chavez, and anybody who grew up educated to work in a western style business culture has a lot to lose. So it is not to be expected that most people from this class will see chavez's reforms as a good thing, it really is a threat to the Venezuela they know and want.

Now the problem they have is they are in the minority, and Chavez has enough friends & luck that he has not been got rid of. I personally believe the US rushed the first coup because they needed to resolve the oil situation in a hurry, but they messed it up and subsequent attempts using more sophisticated pyschological operations havent quite worked either. Its all down to numbers, and so if Venezuela remains democratic, the priveliged class wont be able to get its way.

As for Chavez, some of his reforms will genuinely help to reduce poverty, but he appears to be from the usual authoritarian socialist brand (with some catholicism thrown in?) which is control-hungry enough to certainly be a "potential dictatorship". He did try to take power by force in the past, after all. But it isnt a true dictatorship till we see what happens at next elections. We've seen that Chavez is willing to mess around with the interpretation onf the constitution to avoid a referendum, but it can also be argued that the process by which the signatures were gathered to trigger the referendum was not exactly clean democracy in action either. Only next major elections will tell.

Im interested in social justice, but then it is easy for me to be on the side of the poor majority there because it doesnt affect me. My opinion is easy to form because theres nothing at stake for me. But if I was a member of the privileged group, I dont know if I would be able to either see or support something called social justice if it meant that my world was destroyed.

If I look honestly at the state of the world, and what I am, what I represent, the country I live in, history, then I am part of the problem. If there were such a thing as natural justice then middleclass white britain would have some serious debts to pay off, and the life I know would have to go.

Oh class warfare, what a messy thing. The standard theme is for the upper class to convince the middle class that the lower class are the problem, and so divide and conquer. This is why the hysteria is directed at weak scapegoats. If I love money and dont want to share and I want a tax cut, I am told that it is the scum who are the problem. Benefit payments, the cost of crime, drug users, asylum seekers, they shall be the targets, its all their fault that my standard of living has gone down, that my lifestyle is threatened. Thats the message my brain is supposed to pick up from the tabloids and TV here. Im not supposed to look at those above me, no that would be bad, keep looking at the scapegoats, they are the easy targets, they are easy to kick, easy to hate. These big corporations and institutions, they arent easy targets, and they have the power. Powerful people can defend themselves, powerless people cant.

So the only time the little people get power is when someone grabs power on their behalf. Chances are they will use some of their power to genuinely help the people, but they will misuse a lot, and if they dont misuse it somebody else in the chambers of power will.

I wont be looking for solutions to fix representative government as a democratic model, the concept is fatally flawed to me. As long as humans want to pass responsibility for things to other people, we will always be in a mess and there will be nothing resembing democracy.

[elbows]

Well I see that Cesar Gaviria, who is leading the international monitoring mission, said the petition signing drive that just happened was clean and democratic. Chavez accused the opposition of mega-fraud. The results arent known till January, if there are enough votes (20% of the population I think) then a referendum will take place on whether Chavez should stay or not.