i hate stealing, but how far goes stealing

[nicolasbourbaki]

Hello dudes,

I do not like stealing in visuals but now i have something like a conflict in myself. I sometimes use pictures I cutted out from newspapers or Magazins and I use super 8 footage, but not homemade cause thats too expensive.

If I now film the pictures and project them on the wall, is it stealing then?

Same with the Super 8? Is it stealing?

I use flashmixer only and I love outlines of humans or sth else. But not always I take everey footage myself I just take an already existing Picture/film.
Is this stealing?
how far goes stealing?
Where does it start where does it stop?

[bluntfaktory]

your not stealing that's what i call "using" it's cool to use an images as a base for what you will change it into . i think pop culture almost demands that you use those images in a near reflextion of the world around you . i think the true crime is to copy someones idea , or straight up use images with out a kick back or without reworking them so they are persented reborn with a signature look that all yours .

[holly]

If you liked this thread, you might like:

Are we VJs (non camera owners) all Pirates? (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=3439&highlight=pirates)

:P :yep:

[holly]

If you take a photo of the Mona Lisa, or better yet, if you take a photo of the Eifel Tower, and show it on a wall, have you stolen the Mona Lisa or diminished its value in any way? What about the Eifel Tower?

"Stealing" is the wrong word and obviously carries all sorts of negative connotations. On the one hand, you may consider something stolen if you took it from someone else without their permission..., however, when we think of the evils of stealing it is not simply a matter of transferring ownership. The evil of stealing is in depriving someone of their rightful property. When you grab a CD off the shelf and hide it under your jacket and walk out of the store, this is stealing because you have deprived the store (the owner) of product which they must pay for.

The issue of Piracy is different because you might buy the original copy, but then you duplicate it and sell your pirated copies. This is also a form of stealing because you are depriving the manufacturer of potential sales of their legitimate copies to the people who buy your illigitimate copies.

When you go dumpster diving for old Super8 footage have you somehow deprived the manufacturer of potential profit by selling copies? When you pull a photo from a magazine are you depriving a photographer from his next job, or depriving the magazine from selling more issues? No, of course not. The law sees this issue exactly as I have described it. Copying and then trading or selling entire films "as is" is Piracy and stealing, and is illegal. Cutting up some images of cultural icons and re-using them in your art is called "social recontextualization" and is protected by ALL copyright laws.

In short, please do not be so dramatic as to call your art "stealing". We all know what stealing is, and VJing with found footage is NOT stealing.

[nicolasbourbaki]

I think that using footage/pics/sth else you didin't make yourself is like "stealing". Because everyone can come take a DVD with a Godzilla film and Play it. That is not art. But to create sth on your own, from the idea to the final product that is real art!

[robotfunk]

And on His 4th Post, He defined Art.

[fluchtpunkt]

...here goes...

this topic has been discussed endlessly on these forums. the debates have been interesting, controversial, heated... & at times they got rather ugly (...what do you expect from a question that makes one group call another thieves & the latter the former censors/narrow minded!).

in any case, people have strong oppinions on this subject & those oppinions can vary a LOT from person to person.
you also have the legal situation in which all depends on the country you're at/in, legal practice on the other hand will often be quite different from written law & may vary within a country. particularly, in many places laws still have to do that were written before the digital revolution & what new laws should look like is still subject to debate!

---a few threads on vjf on the subject---
copyright law debate (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=895)
'les voleurs' (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1547)
getting your footage ripped (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1437)
another copyright debate (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=3031)
debate on article about copyrights (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2066)
(this should get you started :) )

i have to agree with bluntfactory & holly - though i think no one can tell you 'for sure' whether what you're doing is legit, without having actually seen it (...however i can't see how making collages from newspapers or magazines should be considered stealing)!

But to create sth on your own, from the idea to the final product that is real art!

...that concept of art seems very nice. it is however impossible to achieve!
we as humans cannot create anything completely new. we can only create new things out of already given things ...using some tool. thus for a sculptor the raw material could be marble, his tools hammer & chisel; for a photographer: the light the world around us emits or reflects - his tool a camera; for a musician: the air - his tool an instrument; for a graphic designer: ink, paper, screen - his tool a pen or computer; ..... & for e.g. a vj the raw material could (or could not) be any visual footage he likes - out of which he will then create 'his' art.


PS: with 'his' i of course mean to address all of humankind - not just guys. his/her has only been left out for convienience of reading ;)

[wellREDman]

as ive said before, at the end of the day ,

for any true artist, the most important person to satisfy is your muse,

what the local boys in blue think of it has no bearing, if you are genuinely comitted to your creative direction

[vjrei]

What I can tell is that we have morals, because we are always discussing this.

Ask Andy Wharhol about using some one elses image.

[burstingfist]

Ok, so by using someone elses images, are you promoting their work? I guess it depends how you handle questions like "Is that yours?" If it aint your work, you should say so and provide information on the creator of the images.

I think if your are using less commercial visuals (i.e. local designers and artists) you should provide on-screen credits. This way even if the artist sees you using their work, at least they won't get totally pissed off. Every artist is different. Some want their stuff to be seen by all, others want only a select few to witness their creations, thereby preventing other like-minded artists from stealing their ideas.

I guess I have to look at it from my perspective, if I saw someone using my imagery in their show, I might get a little steamed. But if they were overlaying my credits on the screen I would be cool, because hey, free promotion.

[unjulation]

yes fundermentily it is stealing but so what?

if you have a problem with it then dont, if you dont have a problem then do it, as far as i can see its as simple as that :)

[holly]

It would be a validation of your artistic process if you put it in your credits, bio, performance description, etc. ("...uses found images from the dumpster of Fashion Plaza" ? or whatever). No one could ever say you were doing something sneaky or trying to take credit for what you haven't done. It must be judged on the sake of it's artistc value, not it's morals.

[unjulation]

the last mail might have been a bit "off the cuf" but it touches upon the whole concept that we have to make our own morels within life, and any space that tries to create outherwise will only get burnt in the long run, trust me (no reason why you should tho ;). ) but you will get what you deserve, not nesiserily what you want, but it generaly works out one way or anouther, anyway enough of this morleising.......just get on with it and live the way you do, you might get shot down for it but if you dont then you allways have something good to tell the grandkids, and if you do get shot down well, well?......youll never know about it til its to late :)

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by unjulation
yes fundermentily it is stealing but so what?

if you have a problem with it then dont, if you dont have a problem then do it, as far as i can see its as simple as that :)


property is theft my freind

[holly]

Now you're going to have to define property, RED.... And remember there are differences between "public property" and "private property", and also especially "commercial property". When you use a property for business or commercial uses all the laws change and you begin to have resonsibilities over what you "owe" to the population you target.

It's not so cut and dry. Once the image is published for a commercial use it's purpose and ownership change within society and within the law.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by holly
Now you're going to have to define property, RED.... And remember there are differences between "public property" and "private property", and also especially "commercial property". When you use a property for business or commercial uses all the laws change and you begin to have resonsibilities over what you "owe" to the population you target.

It's not so cut and dry. Once the image is published for a commercial use it's purpose and ownership change within society and within the law.


sorry i was just being flippant with an old anarchist adage,

it means that by defining something as "yours" you are therefore stopping other people from "owning" (using) it .

so all ownership is by definition theft from everyone else who might aspire to own it.

all laws are there for is so people dont have to make their own moral decisions

but yeah dont reply to this , i dont want to get all bogged down in a flamewar about my own fairly radical views, in case someone thinks they are the views of vjc as a whole.

[nicolasbourbaki]

I don't care if it is illegal or not. I just wan't you all help me define where footage stealing starts and where it stops.

"How much filters do you have to put on a film so you can call it yours"

Thats what I meant.
I say, and this is clear i think, that if you record for example wellRedmans visuals on a party on DV and then Play your Tape on another night is stealing.

But how much work do you have to put in stolen footage that it can be considered as YOUR OWN work?

[holly]

Since this is a hypothetical question, it is impossible to answer with any accuracy. It's a feeling. Is it a span of time? A specific number of pixels? Each instance might be different.

Why don't you post some samples and we can debate specific examples rather than saying something arbitrary like "until you can't recognize the source" or "32%" or something equally hypothetical.

[Lara]

My college lecturer is always going on about artists and designers being 'magpies' who observe good ideas in other people's work and the apply it to their own.

I start off by using a piece of footage that I like, filtering it etc, and starting to fit it into a composition of my own, then on to observing what I like so much about the footage in the first place, and trying to apply that technique to footage I film or post produce myself.

Don't be hard on yourself, as long as its all evolution and experiment . . .

[nicolasbourbaki]

Originally posted by holly
Since this is a hypothetical question, it is impossible to answer with any accuracy.


you're right. the question is like: What happens after death?
no one can tell it. case closed.

but at least we tried it!

[sleepytom]

just pointing a camera at someone elses screen and overlaying your own text is stealing :D - cools as fuck though if done in the right environment (were you taping it too?)

[VJOZ]

Try this. Cut off your arm. Share it to someone. Have them wave it around. Is it theirs? No. Take it back.

Now cut off hand from that arm. Hand it to them (ha ha). Wave it around. Theirs? No. Take it back.

OK - repeat with finger. Then with last knuckle. Finger nail.

Oh sure, they can paint the body part a different color, slice it, dice it, put it through a meat grinder, etc. But you know it was your arm to begin with.

:bottomfee

-VJOZ (on a twisted monday morning)

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by VJOZ

Oh sure, they can paint the body part a different color, slice it, dice it, put it through a meat grinder, etc. But you know it was your arm to begin with.

:bottomfee

-VJOZ (on a twisted monday morning)

good analogy - but when it comes out of the meat grinder you will have great trouble convincing me that it is your arm still - i'd have to say that its mince meat at this point in time and the creator of the mince meat is not you but the person who put your arm into the grinder.


this whole discussion is getting really boring now

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by VJOZ
Cut off your arm..... Share it to someone. Now cut off hand from that arm. Hand it to them (ha ha). Wave it around. Theirs? No. ......Oh sure, they can paint the body part a different color, slice it, dice it, put it through a meat grinder

um, ok you hand it to me, i eat it. in about a week i would say that whatever i didn't shit out, is no longer your hand but now 100% me.

i like this angle on the old dead horse-- how much tweakery has to be done in order for it to be "ok" (in a moral/ethical, legal, aesthetic... sense). imho it really has to be defined by the individual, but i do have a feeling from all the other threadz, that it comes down to something like this:

there are 2 camps (and many many people who are in-between):

in the first camp:
it is not ok to use anyone elses footage but your own.

the other camp:
1) if its loops that you traded/bought: no tweaking needed, but it's a plus (if there's someone who's loops you like to use, why not show their name?)
2) other vj's vcd you traded/bought: same as above
3) comercial vj dvd's: not as cool. but if you're going to use them, it's better to use them as a layer or something (and best to ask for permission to use in a club, though they may ask you for some cash)
4) art films and experimental videos: good used as re-mixes with tweaking, best to ask permissions, and easiest to get permission form living film/video artists.
5) hollywood, bollywood and old movies; take them. don't worry about the lawyers (unless you want to put it out on a dvd) and don't worry about people whining that you're stealing (no one will think you actually made those images so youre not pulling a fast one one no one)
5) stuff recrorded from tv: same as above,

it really isn't that important to ask how much tweaking is needed to make it "legit" that's a whole different kettle of fish, the real issue is if you aren't tweaking them, what are you doing? because its just sooo much fun to tweak images....

[wellREDman]

nicely put lil cat

[nicolasbourbaki]

Originally posted by sleepytom
just pointing a camera at someone elses screen and overlaying your own text is stealing :D - cools as fuck though if done in the right environment (were you taping it too?)

this was just a joke. and I didn't tape it!!! I never would!

[sleepytom]

no mate it was the highllight of my weekend - very funny indeed - i was kind of hopeing that you taped it as we didn't get it on our tapes from our mixers :(