Sunday - AWARDS and more...

[spark]

AVIT will wind-up with a social event on the sunday, just for us. After the hustle and bustle of the conference and clubnights, this is our chance to offer some real hospitality and people cement the friendships and experiences of the festival.

But that is just part of it - it will also be host to the AVIT AWARDS, and there are loads of options and stuff before we even think about winners =] With the amount of performances and people attending, there are some obvious categories for awards, but we could also do a lot more than that. It might be a really good opportunity to promote the VJC community, and represent work thats going on behind all those avatars...

So what d'ya think? Get the punters to judge a set from the multirig? Have a VJC showreel contest? An AVIT lifetime achievement award? Or should that be honoured by VJC?

And remember to make your travel plans appropriately, this will all be once we've emerged on the Sunday. So lets say a provisional 1pm-4pm, reply below if thats a problem, and just what about these awards....

[spark]

...and for those who don't need to fly off straight away, Addictive TV are holding a post-avit AudioVisual Lounge in London the next day, Monday the 27th.

[VJOZ]

VJ Awards?

Are you talking about Academy-type awards or a VJ battle?

D7 just did a VJ battle at Siggraph in San Diego this year. Was brutal but hella fun (I didn't go). A lot of VJ buddies fighting out to be top dog.

[Lucidhouse]

Showreel contest sounds good to me.
Maybe have a limit on time...no longer than 5 minutes or so.
good diverse way of promoting the scene.

;)

[Lara]

Oh I was hoping they would be tacky and lowbrow :biggrin:

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by VJOZ
VJ Awards?

Are you talking about Academy-type awards or a VJ battle?



yeah we were talking about an academy awards type deal for the sunday, we were thinking that the Golden Tbar Awards would
be suitably toungue in cheek :)
and i can tell you a top sussex sculptor (me :) ) has been commissioned to make the actual trophies

best mac software,
best pc software,
best hardware,
best graphics card
best visuals at a gig,
best visuals in a club
lifetime achievement award

that kind a thing.

and not neccesarily limited to ppl at AVitUK but to recognise the international performers who weve talked about enjoying at various stages, ie gorrillaz, dj shadow etc.

plus hopefully it will feed into an added bonus for future avits, if a coupla celebs recieve gongs in the post from some organisation called avit, next year we might have cause to have to source a red carpet :)




Originally posted by Lara
Oh I was hoping they would be tacky and lowbrow :biggrin:

me too,
the idea is that its a bit of fun for the end of the event where we can all socialise without getting distracted by screens, and toyz



Originally posted by Lucidhouse
Showreel contest sounds good to me.
Maybe have a limit on time...no longer that 5 minutes or so.
good diverse way of promoting the scene.

;)
i'm not sure that im into this kind of competetiveness beinginbuilt into an avit, cos i like to think that were trying to push more of an atmosphere of cooperation, but this is a community event, so if thats what people want well have to look into the logistics of it. as it would require, both extra organising, and some space set aside during the actual conference for ppl to view the entrants , both of which are in short supply.


maybe we could have an 1 minute clip competition, with the clips hosted online between now and AVitUK for ppl to vote on , winner to be anounced at the awards .

but i guess this would still require someone to come forward with hosting/tech/organising time .

[Lara]

Its a great idea, its hard to rate the 'best' vj sets, we can't even agree on the term 'vj,' lol :) We could have awards for originality, for progressive sets, for av sets, highlighting the best and most unusual parts of the festival....?

And then the tacky and lowbrow ones celebrating all the booze we have drunk and how we have behaved - one for the messiest vj, the shoddiest s-vid cable and hopefully a load more scandal besides.

[unjulation]

:pint: :cheers: :pint:

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by Kriel
YES! We could have Cainer of the Year! Can I self-nominate?

kx

hehe LOL you will have some competition. :):):D

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by Lara
Its a great idea, its hard to rate the 'best' vj sets, we can't even agree on the term 'vj,' lol :) We could have awards for originality, for progressive sets, for av sets, highlighting the best and most unusual parts of the festival....?


does this mean youre up fro stepping up to organise a showreel/1 min clip competition?

[Lara]

I thought it might be easier for ppl to vote for sets they'd seen at AVit, I don't really think that you can judge from such a short clip 1min, and showreels aren't live. We could have an online or paper poll with the top 10 questions suggested here on saturday evening or something, then count up the results and give the awards on sunday. I don't mind organising this . . . ;)

[charlielangridge]

Oi Unj - u know who won the north vs south drinking match, and who had to down JD at the end of the night to hide embarasement! ;)

Kriel - Set a time and place ;)

[holly]

Good work Lara. Maybe you could add a sort of ratings ballot to the orientation paperwork. Maybe a score of 1-10 in many different catagories (the catagories that match the awards) then you just tally up the ballots and take an average from the number that responded by handing in their ballots.... Maybe a score of 0 means you didn't see see that VJ or Not Applicable as it were.... Hrmmm. I dunno. I suppose VJs could decide whether to register to be on the ballot at all, then those who don't want to be judged just don't put in their names and aren't considered for awards...?

Here's an award: BIGGEST rig.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by holly


Here's an award: BIGGEST rig.

lol
as anyone who has seen my rig-osaurus will attest
that award will almost certainly go to me :)

[holly]

"Rig-osaurus":jump: :lol: :jester:

[randomFX]

well if we have an award for the biggest...we gota have one for the smallest :P

[wellREDman]

that would have to go to dave-inside's resolume running pda

[mondo]

gets my vote

btw - what's a cainer???? :love:
i nominate myself since i cannot remember anything since vjs.net a year ago!!

[Bartholomew]

i strongly oppose to handing out awards to the 'best showreel' or the 'best pc vj software' or to whatever categorys we could think of.

In the 'best pc vj software' category it obvious that our software wil win ;-) But there is just no good possible way to compare vj softwarez. VJo and Resolume are very DIFFERENT from each other one is not better then the other ... they each serve different purposes.

Same with showreels. One could argue long about what is the best showreel but in the end it commes down to a matter of personal taste.

I,d like to present Robotfunks rule here that says that 90% of what is out there is crap. And this applies to everything, showreels, paintings, graphic design, music, everything. And what that 10% of good stuf is differs from person to person.

We could split up categories into 'best pc node based vj software' and 'best pc clip triggering vj software' or 'best 3d showreel and 'best flash showreel' but that leads us to ... ehrmm ... a very long and boring award seremony that nobody will attend.

[sleepytom]

thats not fair...
resolume can't win "best software" AND "best t-shirt", god next they'll be wanting "nicest deveolpers" or something

it could get really stupid if any of the awards are too serious let have more like "best hair cut" and "most inventive use of gaffer tape" rather than "best software" (but we should give resolume a prize anyway :D )

[fALk]

I am strongly opposed to awards in general especially in the art domain.

There is no way someone or a mass of people can really judge any quality... Only because the punters in Brighton will like a special vj performance does not mean that the punters in some other place on this earth will like the same set. Also I would argue that what the mass likes is most likely not the best art.

Awards are also a good way to split a community with useless arguments will promote some to be "something special" and mostly people who have won awards act like they are the shit. I never entered awards and I am avoiding events where awards are held like the plague. I would even consider canceling my plans to attend at Brighton if it will revolve around an award.

The last thing we need is the "I am better then you" attitude in some other forms of art. We are all good in some way. Some of us start some of us are in busssiness longer some are more talented some have better resources but to get us somewhere we have to work together as one unity rather then having "stars" or pushing some of us forward as the "better". Because then you kill off all effords to push our artform further as the public likely sees the "winners" as the one to look at if you want to see good visuals all other forms will be disregarded as "bad" or not "hip". Its counterproductive to the whole scene.

Or we hand over the award to EVERYONE attending in the mixfest making a statement that noone is better then the other, would be the first award to do so and would be a publicity stunt per excellence.

As for software / hardware awards I was about to say that this is ok but then I realized that there are "some" developers attending and the same things as above would apply... So I do like to give Edirol some credit for the V4 they deserve it... But this could be just a press release or the such or an open letter and does not need to be an award at all.....

[wellREDman]

Having an award, and an award ceremony, (even if it isjust an excuse for us all to go out for a meal @ the end of Avit) should send a more grown up message about our community to those outside it

it wasnt really meant as an inter vj pissing contest, but if say Matrox get a nice trophy in the post for "best graphics card" then our industry might move forward one notch in terms of being taken seriously by gfx card manufacturers

similarly if Massive Attack (who were much feted round these parts recently for the quality of their visuals) were to recieve
the best visuals with a band gong, their manager might not begrudge so much the extra money it cost, and the word of mouth in those circles might lead to more vj's touring with bands

and hardware wise verybody wants to tip their hat to edirol for building us a mixer (though both korg and pioneer could swipe ithe award off em in a late end-run )


so yes i think that letting it turn into a vj pissing contest would be bad taste,
but every industry has its awards, it's benchmark for quality
and having a proper VJ awards will only make us appear more professional to other industries


so what categories should we have ?

how do we want to break down the softs/ hardware

how about

BEST:
node based,
clip player
sound reactive
fx
SOFTWARE (one of each for mac/pc )

Best mixer
best fx unit
best lcd monitor
best projector

best laptop mac/pc
best gfx card

[Lucidhouse]

I see your point wellRED

I agree it is a good way of hightening the profile and awareness of the industry.

As for the showreel part of things, I don't think it will work as a competition but it could still be a great way of showcasing what people have achived using various hardware and software configs, might work in that uncompetitive way.

[Rovastar]

Yeah we need this. Other professions do this. Arty ones too.

It bring recognition to the scene and a level of professionalism.

I wanted on last year to be honest. But my cries where shouted down.


Originally posted by wellREDman

so yes i think that letting it turn into a vj pissing contest would be bad taste

That sounds so wrong in so many ways.

[Lara]

I think it can get really ropey when it becomes a 'best of...' set of awards.... and everyone has mentioned how subjective it can be. Why don't we celebrate the visuals we have seen at AVit, by highlighting interesting this we liked about people's sets. That way it is positive feedback for the vjs involved- so I think we should forget about soft/hardware awards imho.

Don't panic, it is strictly and add-on and not one of the main events- don't you dare not come fAlk! What if we devise a ballot system in which every vj and newbie (but not punters) gets to comment on the work. These are not awards for who is 'the best' but just awards to point out parts of a vjs work which is of a high standard. So we would be voting for (these are sketchy examples):

>original/unusual imagery
>original use of sampling
>impressive technical mixing skills
>most impressive crowd reaction
>effective use of narrative
>effective use of non-narrative
>most impressive av set etc etc etc ...........

and some blank comment categories, so people can say what they liked and why- people's answers will correllate- just like in the big chill thread or whatever.

If we wanted to extend this to industry wide then we could have 5 blank spaces (or nominations decided now) for products which have impacted the industry and for our favourite vj performances outside avit.

Any thoughts?

[Lara]

.... oh and mond- that's a (co)cainer! (but meaning obviously to take loads of something) x

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by Lara
.... oh and mond- that's a (co)cainer! (but meaning obviously to take loads of something) x

once again etymology rears its ugly head

i always wrote/read it as caner , and asumed that it came from caning ie whipping a horse, cos you "cane" things as in get through them like you "cane it " as in go very fast

[Rovastar]

Sorry Lara I do not like any of those examples.

And I think they would be even harder to judge than the 'traditional' ones like Red suggested.

[Lara]

That's why it is a vote- you aren't judging 'the best' but just voting for a set you liked and remebered that was relevant to the category........

You seem to be passionate about the issue, Rova, what are your suggestions?

Red> I don't know where I got that from, it's probably rubbish! ;)

[LEVLHED]

I would like to see a gag award for the first blue/system screen during the multi-rig....something large and annoying, just nice enough that you can't bring yourself to throw away, but ultimately still a piece of junk...

[RayV]

i would support lara here as well as would suggest to try to find the golden path. (Rova - you didn't explain your argument why, you dislike Lara ideas, please do)

I agree to the fact thats everything is sujective & all is a matter of taste.
but with a bit of humour - that can be fun! (best if it will)
(therefore uniqe haircut award ... can go straight to Red as well as big-rig)
I'm sure that by the nature course, the award thing can grow
& develope with time from Avit to another, but its good idea (i think) to let the VJs vote for their personal impression,
& give a bit of space to punter's taste too.
maybe not all categories should get the T-bar / any plastic award
some can get appriciation paper, & that's can be applied to the developers or companies, which we vj's are their customers!
they do add to the community the competative spyce. I do think that the fact that Vj's wish for getting paid gigs is a competative
thing, maybe not in a bad way, it is on diferent territories (maybe just the small ones) Whatever - , but you can't totaly avoid it's there. that's why I think it should be moderated by not being as serious, just give the impression of the people who participated on that certian Avit.
includes punters.
Anyways I rekon the best bits always would be the funny parts
:jump:

[unjulation]

What if we devise a ballot system in which every vj and newbie (but not punters) gets to comment on the work.

this i would whole hartedly disagrea with 'cos as most know by now, me shout me mouth of ? would say that the audiance/punters are the most important voice you should be listing to

it's actualy a very weird "bind" you find your self in, there's the aspect that says the most important people within the equation is the actual audiance it's self, because those are the people that are paying your wages, if you want to look at it cynicly, but they are the life blood of the industri that we work within, with out them who do we show what we do to (yes i know you can come back with the whole a/v video thing but thats not for hear), then you find yourself actualy wanting recognition from your peers and the industiry that we are part of

interesting.........

[Lara]

Red you can't get best haircut (big-wig) and big- rig?!

Unj, I do see what you are saying, butin a practical sense its going to be hard to ask the punters at a 3-day festi what they think in a detailed ballot . . . people will not be in constant attendance and probably won't remember anyone's names . . . ;)

I think it would be a bit of a waste when we have so many vjs together if we didn't have some comments on work, cause we are quite isolated sometimes, especially if you work on your own . . .

[wellREDman]

I like that a lot more lara than turning into a competetive thing, a more general questionnaire for ppl to fill in about visuals, and what aspects they like /dislike, with examples from AVitUK,

maybe it would make a good rescource when collated

a kind of group review

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by Lara
Red you can't get best haircut (big-wig) and big- rig?!


<sniff>, i wont be receiving any awards <sniff> just got a call from one of the bands i "do" for , looks like im gonna be playing elsewhere on the sunday night, will miss the whole social thing


there really is no smiley to express how this makes me feel

[InsideUsAll]

ditto red, with us having to miss the friday night multi rig mayhem. Leeds was one of the highlights of my visuals career, the feeling we all had at the end when the crowd looked up at the rafters and unanimously applauded the vj's was a moment like no other, chicago was fantastic, and brighton - i'm booked for another gig :(

the only saving grace is its a gig with G.M.S my all time favourite artists, at my all time favourite club, with a promoter that always pays - so its not all bad, but still i'm gonna miss you guys [&girls ;)]

:sad:

[Lara]

Originally posted by wellREDman

maybe it would make a good rescource when collated



I really like this idea, I wonder how it could be done . . . .

[murph]

I dunno if we necassarily have to have awards, I don't really care one way or the other, but I think it'd be fun to do it kinda like at the end of high school, where you nominate people "most likely to be a hairdresser" and stupid stuff like that.

And seriously, anybody who's seen my cable box will agree I win for messiest cables. =]

(and red, I think there's some folks with a bigger rig, though I don't remember who...)

[fALk]

ok as said before I am not offending the "hardware/software" award... that would do nice (that finds enough offendence in the developer community :)..

but anything that tries to judge art has my opponence. :grrr:


I do like an open discussion about what we liked and why... I would take critique in words... lets just go somewhere to eat on sunday and have a nice social conversation and critizing each other. 10000000mio times better then an award for all of us as this would really bring us further. I think that art also needs an defendence. Its not good if 100 ppl judge what I do but have completly missed the point of my "art". I need to speak to the people who are judging in return.

And no the punters are no messurement, they might pay but that does not mean that I please them all the time! This is what makes us do art rather then work in a bank....

[fALk]

"most inventive use of gaffer tape"


yes yes yes an award that I would be able to win :) me also reffered as gaffa guy in some circles :) taping the beamer to the ceiling with gaffer once (500 ppl underneath)

or floating the rig table with gaffstraps (so all my gear was sitting on top of this floating gaffatable) :) there was no real table available....

or making gaffa traps for beauty girls... ah no that was a dream... ....

gaffa rulez :)

[KillingFrenzy]

It seems to me that there are two types of awards that would be able to hold water.

1) Awards given for products/showreels which were produced in the year before the conference date. These would have to be submitted to a committee/audience and judged.
2) Awards given for performances at the conference. These would have to be witnessed and judged by a committee or a poll of the audience for the event. A committee could award some honors like "most enthusiastic newcomer" etc.
Anythings else seems VERY subjective. Awarding "best club gig" seems ridiculous. It shouldn't be too hard to come up with categories that can actually be fairly judged, given some public notice and entry specifications that anyone could have access too.
As far as products/software go. I'd say come up with some positive categories that a committee can award specifics rather than have a big poll that has no meaning. So, for example, you could have "best GUI" or something along that lines awarded by a committee. Perhaps "Favorite Software" could be a general poll taken by all attendees.

So Committee awards for specific achievements
Peoples choice type awards voted on by the community for favorites.

Apologies if theres a little circular logic in there somewhere.
I'm a bit stewy after doing a gig.

[mondo]

usually in instances where there are a lot of artbods together ...a "creative user" approach is a good option.

questionnaires, voxpops, roving dv cams to record as many bits of avit as poss...for future use/marketing etc...gauge opinions, scenes, etc etc

from three days of feedback from punters, vjs, djs, the dog outside, etc it'll be obvious what is hot and what is not.

doesnt have to lead to a nice gong or anything but feedback/mutual recognition is crucial to keep us all going. and it doesnt just fall to a few select judges either

(btw - we should keep teh best haircut gong at least)

[charlielangridge]

Originally posted by fALk
yes yes yes an award that I would be able to win :) me also reffered as gaffa guy in some circles :) taping the beamer to the ceiling with gaffer once (500 ppl underneath)


Prehaps the most idiotic and negligently stupid use of gaffa tape. I hate to add a off thread topic, but this is prehaps one of the most dangerous things i've ever heard of and should not be smileyed at! It is really something that you should be ashamed of - somebody is really gonna get hurt soon because somebody can't be bothered to pay for propper rigging gear.

Prehaps you should visit the rigging and gigging workshop (including health and safety)

[wellREDman]

yup totally charlie

[vjnixmix]

I think there should be an award to AVIT North America... for pulling off an avit with least amount of organizers!

HAHA ;) :P

(really I just think we should have a gold t-bar on display at the next Avit North America ... I am certain, together, we can all find a reason why!) :yep:

[Lara]

Originally posted by mondo
usually in instances where there are a lot of artbods together ...a "creative user" approach is a good option.

questionnaires, voxpops, roving dv cams to record as many bits of avit as poss...for future use/marketing etc...gauge opinions, scenes, etc etc

from three days of feedback from punters, vjs, djs, the dog outside, etc it'll be obvious what is hot and what is not.

doesnt have to lead to a nice gong or anything but feedback/mutual recognition is crucial to keep us all going. and it doesnt just fall to a few select judges either

(btw - we should keep teh best haircut gong at least)

This is maybe the best solution, keeping the awards for humorous purposes and having constructive, positive discussion and feedback from questionnaires etc. Whaddya think?

[Anyone]

why dont we use the poll to get VJF peeps to vote for the nominees for each award?

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by Anyone
why dont we use the poll to get VJF peeps to vote for the nominees for each award?


yeah thats the plan

but we need ppl to nominate people /things

and rova/exhale, can you dick around with the settings and see whether we can do a poll with multiple questions rather than having loads of polls

Also Lara are you up for compiling the constructive criticism questionnaire?

cmon lets get this show on the road,

my nominations are :


best AV piece : 1 giant leap,
Best Visuals with a band : Gorillaz
Best Mixer : mx50
Best other Hardware : Saitek X45
Best Node based software : Video Jockey
Best Clip playing software : Vjamm
Best GFX card :matrox G550
Best Haircut : Exhale
Best use of humour on forums : Sleepytom


thes are just a few categories off the top of my head, so suggest more ppl as well as you nominations

[Lara]

So, we having separate criticism and awards then? I don't mind doing the questionnaire t all.

[wellREDman]

Yes i think thats the way to go forward,

a questionare for the constructive criticism stuff so we dont get bogged down in an inter vj dick swinging contest

and an awards thing both as a fun diversion for the sunday social thing and as a way of sending a message to hardwre/software/record companies etc. that vj'ng is growing up into a mature industry.

cheers for taking on the questionnare thing lara, all help is greatly appreciated

some more categories ?

best editing/compositing software : Adobe After fx
best flightcasing solutions : amptown cases
Best PC case : shuttle

[fALk]

Prehaps the most idiotic and negligently stupid use of gaffa tape. I hate to add a off thread topic, but this is prehaps one of the most dangerous things i've ever heard of and should not be smileyed at! It is really something that you should be ashamed of - somebody is really gonna get hurt soon because somebody can't be bothered to pay for propper rigging gear.

Prehaps you should visit the rigging and gigging workshop (including health and safety)




Last edited by charlielangridge on 14th September 2003 at 09:05 PM

Well, not if you use 3 rolls of gaffa tape and hang yourself on the beamer to test out if it holds! Really savety was a big concern and gaffa was the most save solution. Anything else would have fallen off. And my weight is like 20x that of the beamer actually attached to the whole "rig". And I would like to mention other threads that sometimes I do gigs for free just because I like to gig there and when there is no money involved you have to make compromises that may look ugly when the construction light is turned on but they may not mean that they are less save. Gaffa is even certified by German T?V and that says a lot about it. Actually at the end off the gig we had LOTS of problems getting the beamer back down :) plz I can not stand critizising when ppl don?t know the facts behind it, the smile was for my memories on this gig and the rigging around it as we had lots of fun hanging the beamer this way (and yes security is ALWAYS a concern to me: here would have had to pay for the beamer which was not mine if it would have fallen off, the people underneath where even my second concern). And at a workshop on "how to rig" you will never see me as I am doing basically only rigging if it is a non paying event (read if I am able to improvise). Every promoter that pays for me has to take care of the COMPLETE rigging - I am an artists and I do art the rigging is for the people getting paid for rigging and as long as we are offering the rigging as part of our "service" we will be seen as that: service ppl, where in fact we should be considered artist (uh flame away maybe in a different threat). For that particular gaffa gig the promoter had no way to afford a single cent to anything picture related as this was an event for a good cause and the gaffa tape solution was the cheapest and the most save at this certain gig. And when you would have read further you would have noticed that I even trust gaffa so much that ALL of my very expensive gear was just strapped to it at a different gig. Two Titanium Powerbooks a brand new V4, dv cam and lcd monitor and from time to time my butt :moon:! Gaffa is great if you have to improvise. That is what its for and the industrial grade gaffe is not going to rip with what I mentioned. We had little test on how much ppl would be needed to tear apart two layers of gaffa just by pulling on it. We stopped when 7 people tried together and still couldn?t rip it.
I am not saying that there aren?t better solutions but bear in mind that they cost much more money then 4 rolls of gaffa and are much more specific to certain tasks: when you need a cheap way to attach something in a strong and permanent way.... so now we have taken this whole thread off topic....
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ps: sorry I had to respond to the above....
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so to pull it back I want to include that we are heading into the right direction. No awards but critizism for the art thing that whoever feels like it can fill out (read feedback), and this feedback can be discussed on sunday in a nice chilly setting)

+ awards for the tools (vj tool awards).

great n lovely this way...

[InsideUsAll]

Originally posted by wellREDman
Best Haircut : Exhale

pot kettle black

[Lara]

Okay cool, so two different questionnaires then: one simple poll, voting for nominations decided now on vjf covering soft/hardware and industrywide stuff, and then a separate evaluation of work/themes/content/delivery/highlights problems etc. I'm going to start a new thread for that then but I need some help on what this questionnaire is going to look like, and what are they key things we want to be evaluating . . . .


:grouphug:

All good! Let's share the looooooove . . . .

[charlielangridge]

The fact of the matter is that this use of gaffa tape is illegal, and justifibly so. It breaks all European and North American Health and Safety regulations (i would imagine it would break all h&s regs in the world but I dont personaly know outside of Europe and NA). It is incredibly dangerous, despite how strong it seems, it is adversly affected by heat / humidity and strain. It is also heavily dependant on manufacturer and their standards, layers of usage etc. What might work fine one night may fail the next.

The following action can and will be take against people who take these short cuts:

Your public liability will not cover you - this means if an accident happens, you will be personally responsible. You wil personally be sued and / or imprisoned. Your insurance company may also take legal measures if you break H&S. Since public liability is a legal requirement, this makes this use of gaffa illegal.

Your event will be shut down, either by the promoter or H&S. the promoter can then sue you. you will also most probably be black-listed.

The health and safety commision can sue and / or imprison you for putting people in danger.

Chances are if a punter sees the dangerous rigging, (s)he can sue you!

If you are doing this kind of event you cant put a price on safety. cutting corners like this can get you into a lot of trouble, but can also much more importantly endanger human life. Considering the price of equipment a few extra quid for safe rigging equipemnt is nothing. If it is not safe to hang the projecter or it is out of your budget to do so, find another way to place it (on a tripod stand for example) There is no excuse for this type of cutting corners.

It is extremely irresponsible for anybody to even be suggesting gaffa tape's use in this manner. I strongly and professionally advise people not to use gaffa tape for any weight bearing purpose.

This is in no way a personal attack or flam against Falk, but a warning to the whole of the VJ community that this kind of rigging is not safe or legal and cannot continue.

Enough has been said on this topic so lets get back to the thread.

[mondo]

best vj/visuals promoter award? beyond avit i mean

mmmm? dunno - any ideas
big chill
vjs.net
ocean
er.................?

[murph]

Originally posted by mondo
best vj/visuals promoter award? beyond avit i mean


I nominate Sound in Motion, who allow me to book different VJs at their event every week. (even if they're paying crap, it's a fun and easy gig for the VJs)

[AddictiveTV]

Hi guys... my turn for a long post...

To be honest, there are loads of fantastic VJs out there that many on VJC may not even know about, so anything like 'best set', 'best promoter' and 'best use of grunged up urban train footage shot from a moving car' really won't help any of us.

Like Paul (wellRed) says, it should be about achievement in terms of what people are doing. Clearly an award doesn't mean anyone is better than anyone else - just because a film picks up an Oscar doesn't mean you have to like it. There are many many great film makers, bands and artists that everybody recognises and loves who have never won awards.

What I think we're all talking about here is clearly not the VJ Oscars or the Grammys or even the Brits or Mercury equivalents but simply our own industry awards, such as Music Week's the CADs (the creative and design awards) that each year gives awards to best album design, best music video director, best ad campaign, best use of SFX in a music video etc etc. Simple as that.

I'm with Paul and think, if handled properly, these could be a great idea. Even the make-up industry have their own awards!

What these have the potential to say is that there is "an industry" - which currently, in a much wider more general sense (and especially to the outside world) there still isn't really. There's still very little infrastructure, not many of us play internationally, most software developers are VJs themselves doing it off their own backs without large scale R&D funding, there's not enough broadcasters supporting the kinds of shows that we (at Addictive TV) or Radley and the guys at Electronica Optica have been producing, hardware manufactures are only now beginning to slowly dip their toes in this pool (and so should be encouraged !) and so on and so on and so on.

We need to encourage this kind of thing. Journalists on the outside need to stop writing "VJs - the next big thing!" and "VJs - the new DJs!". It's nothing new, they simply need to just be writing about it. Over time, AVIT and awards like these can help massively in educating associated industries (and the outside world!).

Serious speech over...!

Graham


Maybe stuff like:

- VJC Popular Vote
- Services to the Industry
- Best DVD Release
- Most popular VJ software
- Most popular 3D software etc etc
- Most popular video camera
- Lifetime achievement Award
- Best VJ hardware (from mixers to portable DVD players etc)

And these would no doubt change over time. In five years, say when there's hopefully a handful of dedicated VJ mixers on the market, they'd get their own category etc... Maybe problematic right now to have 'best mixer' or 'best dvd player' type categories as these won't be changing year to year quickly enough with new kit as there's not enough of them on the market...

[Rovastar]

Sorry I have not replied before Lara. I load of stuff going on in my life atm and no real time to have input to this.

Re: your suggestions.

Personally I don't like and will save this for a no doubt pending debate on this the narrative 'style' of VJ'ing. I really do not see narrative as being an important part of VJ'ing or even relevant.

Having a award on this is pointless IMHO.

I am behind in general what RED is suggesting for teh awards structure.

it is difficult (but not impossible) to quantify a quailitive measure like 'art' but at least we have actual items like. VJ software, Mixers, projectors, etc. We can build and have awards based on these actual real world things.

The more subjective the part of VJ'ing like narrative, etc is even more vague in quantifing which we need to do to award something.

Peices of paper handed around on teh day to the VJ's would be a simple method of voting there. (I will look into the online voting stuff but I fear it will be difficult)

More later

[holly]

it is difficult (but not impossible) to quantify a quailitive measure like 'art' but at least we have actual items like. VJ software, Mixers, projectors, etc. We can build and have awards based on these actual real world things.

Rova, what you are suggesting seems that people are supposed to get awards based on how much money they spend on their gear. Best software? Best projector? How about deepest pocketbook - winner gets to buy everyone lunch!

Art IS subjective, that's the whole point. Lara is working out a way where a consensus is formed by asking everyone their subjective opinion. This is far more valuable than consulting a catalog for current specs on a certain gear! Who needs a forum for that? The whole point is to get everyone in the room and form new opinions and discover what is working and what is not. No one person will be making these decisions so there is no way to be "unfair".

[Rovastar]

NOt at all.

You can have an award in other industries for the best *shrug* camera or something it is not based on the most expensive.

Often the best value for money/innovative features.

For me the awards are for public recognition. We need 'something' to come across as more professional.

I too want best VJ, best newcomer, etc.

[Kriel]

All industries do have awards of some sort or other, but, as with the Grammy's for instance, generally one needn't participate in the event in order to be nominated for and win an award.

There are MANY performers, manufacturers, etc., who will not be participating in AVIT but who are far more deserving of an award (say, lifetime achievement) than those of us who are.

Even worse, and what concerns me most, is that participation-for-nomination makes AVIT a de facto horse race -- like DMC -- yet, without the structure or forethought.

I would far prefer to see a DMC-style head-to-head within AVIT for those who choose to participate in the competition, OR to have awards which are open to any performer, manufacturer, innovator, etc., anywhere on the planet, participant or not.

krielx

PS
...and for the record, I AM participating.

[holly]

Ah, sorry Rova. I had a brainfreeze. Yes, of course I see the importance of giving an award to the manufacturer of the product as recognition and encouragement in the industry. Somehow I thought you meant we should give an award to the participant who brought the best projector:confused: :smack:

Yes this is definitely two different issues. One internal for fun, one professional for the industry.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by Kriel
I would far prefer to see a DMC-style head-to-head within AVIT for those who choose to participate in the competition

yeah that would be fun, but methinks its too late in the day to put that together now,

one for avit 2004

[PilotX]

i've had a think, and would like to put some alternate nominations for some of red's:

best visuals with a band: Fingathing
Best Mixer: V4
best clip playing software: Resolume
best editing soft: Virtualdub

some other possible categories:

best new development: freeframe (or possibly the dvd-decks if they were out in time)
Most interesting rumour
best other software: Pdooms DM2 usb->midi

on the other part of the topic about the subjective awards, I have to say that I prefer immensely the idea of compiling questionairres on which to base the awards then having a straight vote between 10 or so nominated people. I personally find it really hard to 'judge' visuals. I either like them or I don't, and there's little in between.

[wellREDman]

ok well this is starting to take shape now, we have plenty of categories, now we need to start filling in nominations
ideally i think we should have 3 or 4 in each category,

over to you everyone :)


Hardware Category:

PC
Best Laptop
?
Best Graphics Card
Matrox G550
ATI 9700
Best Case
Shuttle
Best Processor
Pentuim
AMD
Best Accessory
?

Mac
Best Laptop
?
Best Tower
G4
G5
Best Accessory
?

General Hardware
Best Camera
Sony PD150
Best portable LCD Monitor
Psone
Gamecube
Best Mixer
Panasonic MX50
Panasonic SW350
Edirol V4
Best Projector
Any Phillips
Best Scan Converter
Vine Micros Coriogen Eclipse
Best Input Device
Oxygen8
Saitek X45
Best FX unit
Fairlight CVI
Korg Entrancer
Restate Rebelle
Best Flight casing
Amptown

Software Category:

PC
Best Node based
VisualJockey
Best clip player
Resolume
Vjamm
Arkaos
Best editing/compositing
Adobe After FX
VirtualDub
Adobe Premiere
Avid Express

MAC
Best Node based
Vidvox
Best clip player
Arkaos
Motion dive
VDMX
Best editing/compositing
Final cut
Adobe After FX
Adobe Premier

General
Best new development/hack
Freeframe
Pdooms DM2 Hack

General Category

Best Promoter
Sound in Motion
Forward Motion Theatre
Best VJ event/Festival
Vjs.net
Avit US
Contact Europe
The Big Chill
OpenAirvit
Best Visuals with a band
Gorillaz
Massive Attack
Fingathing
Best Visuals in a club (please note this award is for something you?ve attended, and been impressed by and is intended to send a message to the promoter, that spending the money he did on visuals was worthwhile, any attempt to turn it into an inter-VJF pissing contest will result in this award being PULLED)
Project Ozma
Best DVD release
Spaced out
Mixmasters
1 Gaint leap
Best Use of humour on VJF
Sleepytom
Holly
Best Haircut
Exhale
wellREDman
Best Use of Gaffa tape (again please no uses that are blatantly unsafe/illegal)
?
Caner of the Year
Unjulation (reigning champion)
CharlieLangridge
Mondo
Kriel
Best Hat
wellREDman
alwaysB
Best T-Shirt
Resolume
VJCentral

[wellREDman]

Rova or X ,

can you look into whether we can have a poll that has multiple questions in it?
otherwise there are gonna be an awful lot of polls if we have to have one for each category

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by wellREDman



Best Haircut

wellREDman

surly thats most in need of a haircut?

[holly]

A few omissions from your list RED:

Best Virtual Mixer for Mac:
VDMX
MotionDive Tokyo
Fuse Infinity

Best video player
DVD players....
VHS players....
multi-format (harddisc) players

Vidvox is a company, not a node-based Mac software....:P If you want I can put together a list of Mac apps.

I know this is all very last minute but is it proper to award devices that haven't even been released yet? Korg Entrancer...? G5...? Save some for next year, eh? I say we need to have a cut-off date for the year so awards don't stretch forever back in time and into the future. If software is still in beta, it don't count.

Oh, yeah. One more:
Sexiest VJ
hint hint

I think you should go home and sleep!

[robotfunk]

are we gonna vote now? or at AVIT?? would be a shame to miss all the good stuff that will be released at AVIT in the polls ;)

[wellREDman]

now were cooking ppl,

will add those categories to the next evolution of the list

except maybe sexiest VJ
that would get far too messy :eek:

ive got another catyegory too ,

most likely to choose a sarky answer over a constructive one .....

Originally posted by sleepytom
surly thats most in need of a haircut?

[sleepytom]

i agree that is dodgy to give awards to things that aren't yet relesed.

also i'm very confused by catorgaries like "best projector" there are just too many brands out there let alone models - and the chances are that very few vjs have actually used a decently wide range of these things to be anything like objective - which kind of leaves us back in a money no object tech spec comparison (Barco should win best projector in this kind of contest)

i say that we should scrap the idea of "best" and replace it with "most popular - as voted for by the users of VJForums" this will clear up any confusion as to what we mean (for example i can easaly demonstrate that VJamm is a "better" clip triggerig app than resolume - as it has lower latency that is more consistant - but i doubt very much that VJamm would be found to be "most popular" in a poll of VJF users)

all the diffrent catorgaries should have multiple choices and include an "other__________" and a "don't know" option

reds catorgories seem about right although there should be more options
i've added some more but it still needs work....

Hardware Category:

PC
Most Popular Laptop manufacturer
Dell
Sony
Toshiba
Fujisu

Most Popular Graphics Chip
Matrox
ATI
Geforce
Most Popular Case
Shuttle
Most Popular Processor
Intel
AMD
Most Popular Accessory
?

Mac
Most Popular Laptop
?
Most Popular Tower
G4
G5
Most Popular Accessory
?

General Hardware
Most Popular Camera Brand
Sony
Canon
Panasonic

Most Popular portable LCD Monitor
Psone
Gamecube
Most Popular Mixer
Panasonic MX50
Panasonic SW350
Edirol V4
Videonics MxPro
Videonics Mx1
Hama
Most Popular Projector Brand
Phillips
NEC
Sony
Infocus
Barco

Most Popular Scan Converter Brand
Vine Micros
Averkey
TView
Sony


Most Popular Input Device
Oxygen8
Saitek X45
Most Popular FX unit
Fairlight CVI
Korg Entrancer
Restate Rebelle


Software Category:

PC
Most Popular VJ performance software
VisualJockey
Resolume
Vjamm
Arkaos
Flowmotion
Electronica
motiondive

Most Popular editing/compositing
Adobe After FX
VirtualDub
Adobe Premiere
Avid Express
Vegas Video


MAC
Most Popular VJ performance software
Arkaos
Motion dive
VDMX
isodora

Most Popular editing/compositing
Final cut
Adobe After FX
Adobe Premier
imovie

General
Most Popular new development/hack
Freeframe
Pdooms DM2 Hack

General Category

Most Popular Promoter
Sound in Motion
Forward Motion Theatre
anyone
Most Popular VJ event/Festival
Vjs.net
Avit US
Contact Europe
The Big Chill
OpenAirvit
Videa
Most Popular Visuals with a band
Gorillaz
Massive Attack
Fingathing
Most Popular Visuals in a club (please note this award is for something you?ve attended, and been impressed by and is intended to send a message to the promoter, that spending the money he did on visuals was worthwhile, any attempt to turn it into an inter-VJF pissing contest will result in this award being PULLED)
Project Ozma
Most Popular DVD release
Spaced out
Mixmasters
1 Gaint leap
Most Popular Use of humour on VJF
Sleepytom
Holly
***** (oh that doesn't work anymore - but you know who i mean)
Best Haircut
Exhale
wellREDman
Best Use of Gaffa tape (again please no uses that are blatantly unsafe/illegal)
?
Caner of the Year
Unjulation (reigning champion)
CharlieLangridge
Mondo
Kriel
Best Hat
wellREDman
alwaysB
best T-Shirt
Resolume
VJCentral [/B]

[sleepytom]

i've also changed it so there would be just one award for most popular vj performance software (well 2 one mac and one pc) otherwise we'll just split up all the programs untill every bit of software gets an award

other points

mac hardware - other than accessories there seems little point in giving apple an award for making macs - (best sgi computer goes to... silicon graphics!?!) probably best to stick to areas where there is some competition such as accessories.

and some of the other catogaries should just be brands rather than models as other wise there will be far too many choices.

[unjulation]

ha ha nice one ;)

just a couple of addistions

best visuals for band - underworld (dont know if there still up to the stuf they were doing a good 5-8 years ago when i last saw them, but at the time an insperation to me)

tom already added gforce cards

more soon got some notes some ware but i'm a bit drunk and carnt find them

[vjnixmix]

Most Popular Mixer
Panasonic MX50
Panasonic SW350
Edirol V4
Videonics MxPro
Videonics Mx1
Videonics MXPro DV
Roland V-5

Most Popular Input Device
Oxygen8
Saitek X45
Most Popular FX unit
Fairlight CVI
Korg Entrancer
Restate Rebelle
Edirol DV-7 Presenter


Best Hat
wellREDman
alwaysB
Pixylight

[sleepytom]

edirol D7 isn't really just and effects box though is it? prehapse we should go for a new catogary of

most popular turnkey visual solution
hippotizer
edirol D7
that other one whos name i forget

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by wellREDman
except maybe sexiest VJ
that would get far too messy :eek:


Haha did you mean that joke or is my mind elsewhere. ;):D

Oh bin off

Most Popular Processor
Intel
AMD

there seems no point.

Are we not having best/most 'popular' VJ

That is the sort of thing IMHO will get the most acclaim, etc. But also will be the most difficult.

I have found no poll hacks for the forums as you would like,....yet.

[wellREDman]

definitely agree on the "most popular"thing
i generally agree with the manufacturer, but some categories we shouldhave model, where it may make a difference with ppl who might be thinking of buying said item

ie cameras should be split into model, cos its worth knowing that the pd150 is more popular than the pc3, tho they are sony

the same goes with decks

and i think there is a case for splitting node based/soundreacive , and clip playing software,
you can compare resolune/vjamm/flowmotion, but you cant really compare vjo with vjamm

[holly]

If we give out an award for every software feature where does it end? We actually de-value the awards by giving out too many. I say that we should settle on only a few catagories:
Favorite VJ Software for Mac
Favorite VJ Software for PC
Favorite VJ Hardware (under $1200, ?1000?)
Favorite VJ Hardware (over $1200, ?1000?)
All judgements are based on exactly one year, current products available on the market right now. Doesn't have to have been introduced this year but has to be in current catalog, maybe you want to add one more catagory for any product that is introduced this year "Favorite Newcomer" or similar, because how many new products are released in a year? Five...? Six...? If we're lucky?

AVIT's Pick (Something that shows ingenuity or vision and makes a profound change on the industry, could be a mixer, could be a Video Label, could be a venue or TV show..., could even be a VJ! Like a lifetime acheivement recognition.)
These awards are once a year, each and every year. They can be hosted where ever a convenient AVIT takes place, but once a year after the designated time period has ended (say June 1st to June 1st). These awards are based on a poll here on VJF so every VJ in the world can participate. International community!

I see no reason to award Apple for FinalCutPro when they couldn't give a rat's ass about the VJ scene. Those tools, even the laptops themselves are developed for OTHER industries. The simple fact that we have adapted them to our own uses does not make them worthy of our (AVIT's) recognition..., and how foolish would it be to run around giving awards to people who don't bother to show up to recieve them?! Who's making these awards anyway? I'm not rushing out to buy trophies for some videocard manufacturer or for a vid-synth that was discontinued decades ago. Do you really think the president of INTEL will be carressing the Golden T-bar on his desk or showing it to his shareholders? Puh-lease. Let's promote OUR industry. VJing. Not filmmaking or record producing or office presentation equipment. Those are great, but what are they doing for us? We might as well have "Best Van for transporting too much gear".

Then there are the VJ Awards - the ones givin to VJs within the scene. I would prefer if these were limited to each and every AVIT. An award for attendies, like Best in Show. No one gets an award for a concert they did 5 years ago. These smaller awards are more personal, more fun, and up to the individual AVIT organizers to catagorize and provide trophies. Humor and attendies picks are ideal, like a film festival..., and yes, you have to perform to be considered for these awards. There's just no other way to have it be attendees' picks.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by holly
We actually de-value the awards by giving out too many.

do we?
whats wrong with a double handful of gongs?

Originally posted by holly
AVIT's Pick (Something that shows ingenuity or vision and makes a profound change on the industry, could be a mixer, could be a Video Label, could be a venue or TV show...,


I like this idea

Originally posted by holly
I see no reason to award Apple for FinalCutPro when they couldn't give a rat's ass about the VJ scene.

i do have it on good authority that apple ARE sniffing around the vj scene, altho admittedly surreptitiously so giveing them an award for the evolution of powerbook that DOES what VJ's want . might make them consider us (even a little bit) next time round.

And yes Mr Gates wont give a rats arse whether he gets a golden T-Bar or not, you can bet if we have a turnkey Visuals system award both edirol, and Green Hippo(who we know both read these forums , :yep: eveing guys :yep: )will be making voodoo dolls of each others products.

likewise Korg,and edirol for best new hardware

Originally posted by holly
An award for attendies, like Best in Show.

lol makes us sound like poodles :)


Originally posted by sleepytom
there seems little point in giving apple an award for making macs - (

tho i must admit to not really paying much attention to all things Jobsian, i thought there were a lot of different permutations of mac laptop,some of which run vdmx and some that dont?
powerbooks, i-books, ti-books,Xwingbooks (okay i made that last one up ,but its what goes through my head everytime i read ti-book )

[sleepytom]

it does seem to make more sense to keep the awards for people who are currently producing stuff specificly for VJs rather than giving them to super huge corps that don't give a shite about vjs (only thing apple have done for the vj scene is given pete warden a propper job so he has no time to work on freeframe! :( )

how about splitting into performance and production @ several price points...

most popular performance hardware under ?500
most popular performance hardware ?500 - ?1500
most popular performance hardware over ?1500

most popular production hardware (cameras, lighting , blue screens etc) at the same price breaks

i don't see why we should engineer it so that visualjockey gets a prize - the node bassed split seems irrelevent to me, whats wrong with a simple favorite vj software catorgary? other wise we might as well split it further and have audio reactive / silent / av capable etc etc - we can make up enough seperate catorgarys to give every software a prize if we like...

[holly]

Sleepy Tom sez:
it does seem to make more sense to keep the awards for people who are currently producing stuff specificly for VJs rather than giving them to super huge corps that don't give a shite about vjs
I feel that would apply to cameras and projectors and other "production equipment" as well. Don't get me wrong, I also feel it would be interesting to take this sort of a census among VJs about gear, but as someone said earlier how much experience does any of us have comparing multiple products? Generally we buy the one we can afford and use it till it dies. Sony, Cannon, Philips..., yeah they are common in our industry but not developed for our industry. We've almost agreed that what makes a VJ has nothing to do with how you produce your visuals (3D, Cammy, Sample, Feedback), but has everything to do with the live performance of visuals. I say we make it clear. It is VJ or nothing.

Arkaos, Resolume, MotionDive..., these softwares aren't used for anything but VJ. It is their only purpose. Clearly these are VJ worthy.

In the case of say the V-4, Edirol's webby says specifically "made for VJs" although they also say "made for Church". I'm ok with that. It's clearly designed with the VJ in mind. DVD turntable, Korg Entrancer..., yeah these are VJ gear (although not eligible for this year).

But a Sony Family Cam?, no way. A Philips projector, nope. A gameboy add-on screen, uh-uh. A portable DVD player to take to the beach, nope. Someday when Philips makes the projector that is "made for VJs and resists smoke damage and lives in a backpack" then yeah that will be VJ gear, but for now it is just office equipment. I think it's cool to aknowledge all the ways we make and show visuals (cameras, bluescreens, beamers, plasmas, etc"), but these enhance VJ, they do not define it. They don't separate the "live performance" from a "VHS tape", and that is the one thing we all agree on: VJ is live.

RED sez:
i do have it on good authority that apple ARE sniffing around the vj scene, altho admittedly surreptitiously so giveing them an award for the evolution of powerbook that DOES what VJ's want . might make them consider us (even a little bit) next time round.

RED, that is just: :bullshit:
They have to take an interest in us, not the other way around. We are a market waiting for products. Edirol proved it and sold out for months. You can bet other manufactures are asking themselves "What is this VJ thing?" The gear is going to be coming from the live music industry manufacturers (Korg, Roland, Pioneer), not the laptop companies. If we go fishing for future product I'd dip my line in the audio gear companies, not Apple.

[wellREDman]

its occured to me that this might also be a good rescource for us,

if we did the hardware section as a scoring system, each of us could just give say marks out of five for each product that we had knowledge of, the average of these marks would give us a star scoring system, good way of comparing stuff,

I know this is covered to an extent by the hardware reviews etc. on VJF, but being honest not enough of us ever get round to properly reviewing enuff diffrent models etc. of kit, let alone rating the stuff others review.

if it was all in one big questionnare , and also included things like the chance to take the piss out of my hair, ppl are more likely to take part , and well end up with a much more in depth poll of what ppl actaully think of the Kit theyre using ,

eg. if i'd known that the camecube monitor had got no stars at all compared to the 5 stars for the psone monitor, I'd have spent the extra ?20 quid and not been stuck with the piece of shit LCD monitor i got now .

we dont actually have to give out hundreds of gongs either,
if we do the poll in advance of avit, we can email the corps involved and offer them to come attend the awards ceremony , thus limiting the trophies to those having trade stalls at AVIT(hippo, edirol et. al)
or who knows we might get the chance to browneat a representative for dell or whoever (i know it'd only b a PR person , but you never know something might filter back to the r&d boys)

Also i see what you mean tom about not ending up with an award per software, but i I personally would find it more interesting to know for instance whether more max or vjo was more popular, as a node based solution,
so maybe a type split would be better ythan a platform split?

i still dont think 4 VJsoft awards is excessive tho, as that is most of us's main interest, and there are waaay more vjsofts than 4 !

[PilotX]

Originally posted by wellREDman
or who knows we might get the chance to browneat a representative for dell

a freudian slip there red? :D

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by wellREDman
we dont actually have to give out hundreds of gongs either,
if we do the poll in advance of avit, we can email the corps involved and offer them to come attend the awards ceremony , thus limiting the trophies to those having trade stalls at AVIT(hippo, edirol et. al)
or who knows we might get the chance to browneat a representative for dell or whoever (i know it'd only b a PR person , but you never know something might filter back to the r&d boys)

I undersatnd what you are getting at about promoting interest but personally I am a little worried about pandering to the 'big corps/projects'. Just because a company does something/anything for 'VJ'ing' does not mean we should offer them an award.

I think the very big copmanies like APple and Dell are honestly not all that interested if they were then they would be sponsering the event.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by PilotX
a freudian slip there red? :D


:o

yes definitely, i meant browbeat

[vjnixmix]

Having attracted the very first AVIT Stalker... this one definately deserves an award.

:help:

Whatever anyone does - don't give out my address, k?

:scared:

[unjulation]

hay well like they say you aint made it till you get a stalker, i want one ;)

[spark]

Thanks for everyone's feedback and the most excellent debate. We, as avit, have looked around and reread the thread from start to finish (well at least i did) and have come up with a plan. Read it here (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=4362) , nominations are open...

Toby

[spark]

http://www.vjforums.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=39

toby