Happy days... [Archive]

Kriel

11th September 2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by holly
How opposite is this thinking to the RIAA sueing a 12 year old girl for downloading MP3s? Music is dead. Long live video.

Walking around PLASA tonight, talking to tech developers, it's CLEAR that the music (or, at least, DJ) scene will move wholesale into "video as performance" in the next three years. Really clear.

That given, the kit that's being released, and the marketing strategies of the developers/manufacturers are defining two directions: 1) the light jock/VJ, and 2) the DJ/AV/VJ.

I hooked up with several VJs at PLASA, and tabled this idea, with the added joke: "if you can't mix (tunez) now, you better learn quick." The caveat they consistently put forward was "Yeah, well DJs and and light jocks and musicians will always need content."

Point well taken, but how does the release of the BBC archive (and the existence of archive.org) change this? And who wants to sit in their studio all week making content and not play out, anyway?

Thoughts?

kx

holly

11th September 2003, 09:54 AM

So, (i'm gonna try to paraphrase to see if I understand what your impression was) the industry is adding visual elements to music gear, but the VJs you spoke with weren't into the idea of adding audio to their video mix...?

I think there will always be a place for those who only want music and those who only want visuals. Purists. Teaming up is a pretty easy way to handle that, but in my opinion as a stand alone vj you will always be secondary to the music and will likely be the first to be ousted when the band wants a make-over.

For those who want to AVJ there will be some who are compromised by adding the other element ? compromising the depth which they can delve into their first choice....

Only a few will really find their best groove when combining the two, and it's just more aspects for someone to pick fault with what you are doing (well, the vids are great, but I don't care for the music *yawn*). I think there's room for all types.

Kriel

11th September 2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by holly
Only a few will really find their best groove when combining the two, and it's just more aspects for someone to pick fault with what you are doing (well, the vids are great, but I don't care for the music *yawn*). I think there's room for all types.

All the more reason to make them dance their ass off so they don't have time to scratch their chins. Which is not to say that there's no room for a new Laurie Anderson, or a more musical Robert LePage, or a less stupid Fischer-Spooner.

And yes, I am finding some/many VJs resistent to adding music. The DJs I speak with are generally VERY enthusiastic about adding visuals.

Me, I prefer to do both, if possible.

The manufacturers ARE adding visual elements to their gear. Pioneer is going to happen. Yamaha's got stuff coming out. So do others. My instincts about the Entrancer were confirmed by the VJs who came by the Korg booth. To quote one, "This IS going to radically shake-up the VJ scene."

We all know that, although passion and skillz are principal to developing the music scene, new developments are almost always led by technology or reactions to technology. By the time the Frankfurt conference happens next year, the landscape for all of us is going to look vastly different.

Lucidhouse

11th September 2003, 10:47 AM

it all sounds...or should we say sounds and looks great!
Dj's are starting to look over their shoulders...ie: towards the big screen that's pumping visuals behind them. Dj's are a dime a dozen, a lot of them are so overated anyway; but to remain competitive they and promoters will have to include top reactive visuals to their sets/shows...

dj-> :help:

julez

11th September 2003, 08:35 PM

yeah...djs are gonna have to expand their performances if they want to stay ahead of the market. I suppose this means we can interact with the djs and tell them what we want played as well. Maybe then will we get a truly audio/visual performance.

Rovastar

12th September 2003, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by Kriel

Point well taken, but how does the release of the BBC archive (and the existence of archive.org) change this? And who wants to sit in their studio all week making content and not play out, anyway?

Thoughts?

kx

Actually I prefer to make content than play out. I don't need the crowd to tell me something is good.

Originally posted by Kriel

My instincts about the Entrancer were confirmed by the VJs who came by the Korg booth. To quote one, "This IS going to radically shake-up the VJ scene."

I am annoyed I missed the PLASA thing. I still honest do not think any of these things in the next 2-3 years will radically change anything.

I mean a DVD mixer that mean ALL your content for you set should have to be DVD 'quality'. By that I mean people at home watching there DVD's get used to a level of quailty. Most of it coming out of film studios, tv, etc. Most VJ cannot manage 5 minutes of decent orginal quailty content. How may of your are like your showreels for a whole set. The stacks will be high but the content the same. :(

If you rape the TV footage from the BBC archive then what. Wow you get the cheap thrills of teh crowd reacting to Only Fools and Horses or something. You gotta love the professionalism.

Commerical purposes. Nuff said.

Kriel

12th September 2003, 01:06 AM

Hi Rova

I really want to agree with you, and you know I'm very much for producing original content. However...

First, I think we're going to see a lot of people mixing and remixing music videos live & in the studio, and then playing them out -- just as we see mixes and remixes of tunes, which could be really interesting. There's a little of that going on now, but not on the scale to come once DJ-style DVD players & mixers are standard.

As for production quality, a whole range of qualities exist side-by-side at the moment. Low rez can always be delivered via hi rez media: witness the current deluge of 8-bit sound samples in electro-clash, not to mention Radiohead, etc. Timbre runs in cycles of fashion, and is the essence of pop-music. Timbres are indexical to the fashion currency of a pop record. The same easily applies to video, and many VJs are identifiable more through the "visual timbre" of their material than the content.

Regarding Only Fools and Horses, I don't know what that is, but I assume it's a British comedy show. It's not my style of VJing, but I'm sure it had it's place at one time. But I think we will see a lot of that kind of thing again, plus a lot more interesting video sampling. Particularly when vast online libraries are available to the public, and more DJs and musicians begin to realise just how damned easy it really is now to edit a video.

Editing a good video, of course, is another story. But accessibility of content, means of production and MEANS OF DELIVERY (pitchable DVD players for example) will bring about new styles and approaches that will influence more practiced and skilled artists. The context of VJing will change, bring about a change in the fundamentals of the medium.

Lara

12th September 2003, 01:30 AM

Rova, what about all the wildlife/geography programmes made by the BBC that will now be made available for ab/use to vjs. Isn't that basically equivalent to using a stock footage house?

Rovastar

12th September 2003, 01:44 AM

Although you are heavyly involved in the club scene i think you misunderstand the backward mentailty of DJ and teh dance culture.

Doing my regular rounds of the DJ/music mags this week (nice exposure btw in iDJ. Although maybe I am the only one to see the irony in the 'regular' VJ column (this month about the future of VJ'ing and how bright it is) and it is the last VJ column in the series. lol. The irony.) and there was a letter from a reader wanting to buy CD mixers. Now CD mixers have been around and decent for years now.

Now his question if I buy CD mixers instead of my 1210's can I got all the new stuff on CD. There response was that 95% of all the music they review in single (12") format is on record only. NO CD's. This is CD's for gawds sake. They have been around for 20 years. Do you really think video DVD's of the same stuff will be common place.

NOw I know the music industry is not the same as the VJ scene but we have to a degree follow there lead.

So for the MTV style mixing/scratching music videos live. FIrst they have to come out on CD THEN they have to have a music video made from them THEN out on DVD.

Sorry but only the biggest artists (Madonna, etc) will be able to command an audience share to do that. Not exactly what teh clubbers want to listen too. :)

Interesting point on "visual timbre" (I had to look that word up. :) ) but again I disagree. Visuals are different to the music medium in that they are far more technology driven. We are used to better and better techonology, special effects, etc. If visual effects from 20 years ago in the orginal Superman film for example where used in a new remake today it would be laughed at.

Occasionaly 'old' effects can be used but this is not the norm. Look at Disney cartoon films for example they are not draw by hand now-a-days they where strong defenders of having the hand draw effect in teh films but with Dreamworks, etc doing computer animated stuff they had to 'up there game' as teh public would not buy it.

I know we are from different sides of the fence with this about the 'style' but I do not mean full on computer graphics all the time.

Again look at Hollywood again. Forest Gump film won a oscar (I think won at least shortlisted) for special effects. There were no terminator 3 style effects in that film but subtle visual recreations that blended into the enviornment.

I don't think "visual timbre" is correct per sa as always new technology will increase the game not tweak an already comparativly exhausted medium (i.e. music).

Now I do love the whole new technology thing but the recent new technological 'breakthrough' are more a means of delivery than a increase/improvement in content/material.

I don't think we need new means of delivery as much for the scene for a increase/improvement in content/material.

Having one of these new bit of kit is not going to improve your set if you still use you outdated material that is avaialble as 'stock' footage now elsewhere.

I feel you missed my point on the BBC archive thing a serious professional VJ willl not use the material. You will get away with it in you smaller clubs but at big events (and I know you have doen a few) would you even risk having sampled footage?!?!?

(when I used you and your not related directly to you Charles just VJ's in general. :) )

Rovastar

12th September 2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Lara
Rova, what about all the wildlife/geography programmes made by the BBC that will now be made available for ab/use to vjs. Isn't that basically equivalent to using a stock footage house?

Sorry Lara but if you use any of there stuff for a paid VJ (or probably even not paid some legal stuff probably in there) it is still "commercial purposes".

SO I really don't see how this effects us directly. Esp not in the 'MIx COntent' categeory maybe under 'Inspiration'

Oh Kriel Only Fools & Horses is a comedy show. :)

Kriel

12th September 2003, 02:54 AM

Rova

Thanks for the compliment on the iDJ piece. It was great of them to do it, and definitely won't be the last VJ piece they run. I know next month they have VJ pieces (I wrote one), and will be continuing their coverage of the VJ scene long term. They really believe in it.

Vinyl IS a problem. Although many of the major DJs use CDs for the most part, they still have to transfer a lot of vinyl to CD. Roger Sanchez has said he would use CDs exclusively if had time to transfer all his vinyl.

Transfer times are a hassle, and if you're heavily involved in production and performance, there's not always time. But I don't think that will stop things from moving forward to CD (or DVD). You can do things with the CD players you can't do with vinyl, and I know you'll be able to intuitively do things with the Pioneer you can't do with tape or easily with software at the moment. DVD recorders make transfers both easy & real-time.

And I like new means of delivery. It means an expanded vocabulary of performance options, which I can't imagine would be unwelcomed by any artist.

Concerning only big stars having videos, I would counter that House music is not the only dance music. And other dance genres have considerably higher sales for even their newest artists, and therefore have higher budgets.

On the archive, you're right. I wouldn't use found footage on a commercial gig of any size. As a general rule, one can't even use BBC archive material on a BBC gig, as there are many licensing considerations. Use of found video is a minefield, but if video sampling becomes common practice, then exchange systems for compensating the original artist will be put in place, eventually.

Finally, I take your point on Superman, but many contemporary films have used low-grade quality to tremendous effect: Zentropa (or Europa for the Europeans), Pi, The Idiots, Henry - Portrait of a Serial Killer, etc. But these are movies, and I thought the subject was video with music.

kx
:)

holly

12th September 2003, 03:03 AM

Oh-kaaay, ...not going up against Rova right now, just adding a few comments:

Prellinger (archive.org) is such a powerful resource when you need specific footage. I did a show for a band last night and they told us at the last minute they wanted "bugs fucking". This was obviously a bit of a joke, and they'd used visuals in the past but not really a VJ. I went to Prellinger and downloaded two movies about insects, cut them up in under an hour and had about 20 wiggly, icky bugs for their show. Before they went on they actually came up and asked to see the bugs! We popped them up on the screen and they were very happy. It didn't matter that the bugs didn't play a large part of the show, but we threw them up every so often. 1 hour work and I have a ton of bugs....

VJs who AVS instead of using Clips and Loops probably would have taken longer than an hour to cut the close-ups out of the boring educational movies. It's a skill that you learn..., but only AVSers complain about "wasting all that time making footage for a show". I'm not trying to be insulting to the different VJ techniques, but I could never sit down and memorize which keypress on an AVS app changes the waveform, which changes the colors, etc. I never get good results from an AVS, but I've seen people who do!

Rova's complaints about the BBC archive are unfounded. He's just in a bad mood. Maybe we have a giant oceanic-filter between the US and the UK, but the stuff we see coming from the BBC, documentaries and costume dramas just blow away anything produced in the States (visually). No one is saying we should all show sit-coms, any more than using Prellinger footage means showing "mental hygene" films of bland 1950s children. Diamonds and gold don't just sit on the surface for you to pick them up and take them home! If you want to mine for gems it takes a while to develop a process and an eye to make mining successful. Use your filters! You can't just sit down and use a video archive instantly, any more than I can show up at a gig with G-Force and perform sucessfully.

Before the bugs, I always bragged that I only had 2 samples in my whole VJ: both of women dancing, both from Prellinger. I used them last night and they always get compliments. People walk up afterwards and say "I love that lady dancing!" If I didn't get those compliments I wouldn't use them because I'm not really a sampler.... Use what works. That's what it's all about. It isn't VJ if you don't put some effort into it. I probably won't use the bugs too often, but if I ever need them I have plenty.

holly

12th September 2003, 03:13 AM

Um, just one more thing about CD/DVD.

I've been using CDs in performances for about 8 or 10 years and I don't just go to the record store and buy Celine Dion to play! Duh. I edit my music and I edit my videos, THEN I burn them onto disc. I'm using my own loops, my own sequences, and my own footage on disc. Like Kriel says, there are things you can do with laser that you can't with vinyl. Using a commercial format doesn't mean you are limited to commercial products!

By that logic, Rova, I'd say you can't use a computer for VJ because who wants to see email and Tetris on the screens??!!:drums: :lol: :jester:

fALk

12th September 2003, 03:28 AM

what a thread :)

ok first I want to state that for me personally there is NO WAY IN HELL I will touch the music side... I think when you do a good vj set it takes ALL concentration and energy and there is simply nothing left... I also would state that there are lots of people out there who are into visual arts because they have no strong passion for the audio arts... saying that a vj should also play the music is simply a wrong understanding of the whole case... I do not believe that going forward with our future is lying in the audio realm.. instead we should focus on advancing our own art through its own medium. and as I told in other threads WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHERE WE COULD BE. there is so much stuff ahead of us that we should takkle first... I do also feel not a bit threatened by dj taking over our jobs as you all know what a pain it is to sort produce all the footage let alone get a concept behind it or prep it up for viewing and having a professional output in the end. Its is much more complicated to do a professional VJ set with love then spin some turntables....

its ok if you are into the av side of things but I think our basic thing(referring to original of the original of our art -> the LOOP) has so much impact that it does not even matter what kind of music is played... I would say I could empty a room with over 1000 people in it in less then 30 minutes by playing "interesting" pictures, no matter how good the dj is!... We can set a mood much easier then the music can... film is what makes people cry or jump up music here is just the addition. In the visual world we live seeing is the much stronger impression.

As for the archive... I don?t need to say that I am still NOT USING ANY STOCK FOOTAGE.. no matter how good it is.. I see my VJ set always as a film that was shoot for this particular purpose and reusing other peoples stuff does just not fit in NEVER. its like using plugins to take a short cut.... :scared:

Imagine all the films you see would be made out of stock footage... we would still be watching Leni R.s work here in Germany... (hey I just watch one of her films... I had to turn it off after 10 minutes! It was very disgusting and I have no clue why she is praised... I think the russians made better propaganda films then her!)

Lara

12th September 2003, 03:37 AM

My point was badly put, but I just wanted to say that not all vjs who use samples are going to play dodgy clips of 'Only Fools and Horses,' some people (like me) use their samples cut up and highly effected. Generic footage from the BBC archives would be indistinguishable from stock footage . . .

But that's another debate entirely, and if the question is moral then yes I suppose it is still 'commercial use'

Kriel

12th September 2003, 03:51 AM

Kusterica, R's evil stepchild, is my most hated for disgusting propoganda, but that's off topic... ;)

Great points, falk. I'm not as purist about my working methods as you are (e.g. use of plug-ins), and although I'm process-oriented, I'm a big believer in what actually comes out of the projectors and screens over how it was produced.

I wouldn't encourage someone who's not passionate about the music to get involved with DJing or making sound, but there are artists equally passionate about both.

And whether we use the archives or not, they will get used, and most likely by DJ/VJs or AVs, rather than straight VJs (with a few obvious exceptions). If we're lucky, they'll get used in a way none of us might have thought up and in a way few of the current sample-oriented VJs are currently working. I know I'll try them out - even as video sketches - just to see what I can do with them.

Lara

12th September 2003, 03:52 AM

Interesting points fAlk- I like the way you are thinking of your vj set as a film. I still think stock footage can be used creatively, look at this Jaga Jazzist video thread it's too cool for skool

:nod: oh, its gone, well here is the link to ninja tune videos page:

http://www.ninjatune.net/videos/

Deciding to never under any circumstances use any archive or stock footage might be a bit rash- to me its about getting the look I want. If I need the northern lights and I can't film them myself and I have them on tape then I will sample them or buy them, mask them, layer them, overlay them, and mix them creatively because nobody in the audience will be worried about what stock footage house I got them from!

mondo

12th September 2003, 04:03 AM

like charles i felt REALLY inspired and excited about the way the industry is looking towards "motion video performance", enhancements in kit and the opening up of the BBC archive.

lots of new kit to play with
lots of new imagery to sample/download from the beeb
lots and lots of possible avenues for all of us.

very exciting - my wish it that we can all get an opportunity to try/experiment with what's available.

i think charles is right - we have to learn quick and we DO need to know about the music side. we all need to step-up to keep up with this epochal revolution.....problem is ... how and where ???

i want to learn about the v4, the enhancer, the hippotizer, the dvd scratch player, new bits of kit and software......what's the best way of doing this then?

i dont have a comment to make here about what vjs should/shouldn't do....my belief is that if another palette of tools, colours, software etc comes my way i would be dumb not to play with them, however pure (or not) i was.

onwards and upwards

:up:
ps. are we going to see any of this new kit at avit?

Rovastar

12th September 2003, 04:04 AM

Originally posted by Kriel

And I like new means of delivery. It means an expanded vocabulary of performance options, which I can't imagine would be unwelcomed by any artist.

Concerning only big stars having videos, I would counter that House music is not the only dance music. And other dance genres have considerably higher sales for even their newest artists, and therefore have higher budgets.

Finally, I take your point on Superman, but many contemporary films have used low-grade quality to tremendous effect: Zentropa (or Europa for the Europeans), Pi, The Idiots, Henry - Portrait of a Serial Killer, etc. But these are movies, and I thought the subject was video with music.

kx
:)

New means of delivery ARE good but I fear the magic bullet of 'I have a Swish new Pioneer xcxfxd-100 and a Korg 138735-dfr' does make you God's gift to VJ'ing. IMHO we have to raise the game in other areas. I have asked around various communities about VJ from a natural angle. 'God I am sick of the same clips 20 times a hour etc.

A fear DJ with no experience of visuals at all will think they can do it. ?!?! :confused: ANd how can you do both. Geez I have a hard enough tiem with just me doing aset I really need 2 peope to do stuff to do something I would be proud of. Let alone the music.

What I meant about teh video was that big name DJ's are not suddenly going to get video promo DVD's in teh post. This if it ever happens will be years of the mainstream. How are you going to scratch/mix visuals where no visuals are here.

Visuals are in our culture people compare TV/movie images and expect that quailty. Hell even hair shampoo adverts have thousands spend on computer animations, etc, etc.

We have to constantly improve our game to keep up.

Question: Are you a contemporary or mainstream VJ?

Hol,

I am not complaining about teh BBC they do some good stuff I just don't see how it is all that relevant to VJ'ing.

"VJs who AVS instead of using Clips and Loops probably would have taken longer than an hour to cut the close-ups out of the boring educational movies. It's a skill that you learn..., but only AVSers complain about "wasting all that time making footage for a show". "

I am truely confused at what you are getting at here.

First of I presume AVS as any generic visualization not a specific app.

Anyway it depends what you do with the 'AVS' you can use them to write your own stuff just like peopel do with visual jockey or whatever. Unforunately many (VJ's!) people do not do this and use others stuff. Yes you can create your own scenes in G-Force or whatever but many do not.

If I had to remodel the clubs logo in 3D from scartch or whatever it will take time and that time is making footage for a show.

That is time making footage for a show. ANyway I digress.

Kriel

12th September 2003, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by Rovastar
What I meant about teh video was that big name DJ's are not suddenly going to get video promo DVD's in teh post. This if it ever happens will be years of the mainstream.

Question: Are you a contemporary or mainstream VJ?

Actually, it's happening already. CD Pool, one of the largest suppliers of promos to DJs, has now branched out and has started DVD Pool, which they showcased at PLASA. And the pluggers making the rounds at radio stations are handing out videos as well as CD and vinyl singles.

Rova, is that question for me or a general one? :confused:

brain

12th September 2003, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by fALk
We can set a mood much easier then the music can... film is what makes people cry or jump up music here is just the addition. In the visual world we live seeing is the much stronger impression.

hm, i think we have a little confusion here between cinema/tv/installation (statement is right) and club/rave/music events (statement is wrong). you seem to define yourself more as a filmmaker (even when VJing), so this pov is understandable, although i don't agree. in a club environment you can't escape the music, but you can close your eyes. and an empty dancefloor will never be filled with a steaming crowd by a vj alone.

on the topic: the bbc archieve will be just another tool. it can be used to no (or negative) effect by dumb clip-loading or it can be a powerful source for re-editing and montage. creating original footage is great, but if you need vintage shots from the 1950s, where do you get them? the opening of such an archieve makes visual history accessible for people with zero budget ( VJs :D ), therefore it cracks the commerzialization of visual history. remember all those photos buried in bill gates commercial library? you just may access if they bother to make it possible, and if you pay. lots of pictures will never be seen again, simply because it is not profitable enough for billyboy. no official library or the state had the money to buy and preserve the collections which he bought. that is a shame.

therefore, every move to extent the public access to visuals is a positive one. sounds like a clich?, but to me thats a bit of freedom.

KillingFrenzy

12th September 2003, 04:38 AM

And I've seen the "Nightlife" system, which is a big fat catalog of MPEG1 Grade videos with a subscription service so you get a new content as it comes in. The quality was fairly crappy, but it had a controller kind of like a CDJ and the next version is going to be pitchable and I think they're upping the quality at some point.

So, for mostly top 40 type stuff (any category) the technology and catalog is there.

Interestingly, sound reactive abstract video like AVS-style programs is actually one of the best ways to cover the tracks that don't have a video. You just have your system automatically pull in a preset when the track you play is only on vinyl or CD.

holly

12th September 2003, 04:39 AM

You took my comments a little out of context, Rova. I've heard many AVSers complain about "taking a month to create new footage". I don't point the finger at AVS, I'm just illustrating a point: tools that are unfamiliar are not easy tools to learn, and I went on to say that I could never learn to program a scene for G-Force. When someone who is attracted to the LIVE-ness of AVS says it would be a waste of time to cut and search for clips, it's no diiferent than when an AfterEffects master says "just shoot your own video and it's a hundred times better". It also stands to reason that when a person who is familiar with mining an archive for clips says, "I need this certain shot of the Northen Lights, and I can't go shoot it myself...." It's horses for courses (I believe is the UK slang). You programming a logo in 3D is no different than me creating an animated logo in AE. We use our tools and methods to arrive at the same intent (if not exactly the same result).

We tend to be a little too critical of the "other VJs"..., the ones who do not use our own methods and tools, and immediately dismiss the tools that are of value to them. There are (at least) three different religious sects of VJing: Samplers, Cammies/Animators, and Programmers. We'll never agree to take on the others' doctrines but we need to learn to have a little more respect for what other VJs do.

I had the pleasure of working with 2 other VJs last night: one used AVS and was very skilled at it, one used samples and was very skilled at it, and I use my own video content (and am very skilled at it:P ), and the results up on screen were fantastic! We had no problems working together and sharing the space and the whole was a thousand times more powerful than any of us could have done on our own.

The next time anybody here wants to pooh-pooh sampling, or plug-ins, or creating footage, or tweeking an AVS, please remember that not every VJ is like you, not every VJ wants to be like you, and VJing as a scene is much larger than just what you can or want to do.

Kriel

12th September 2003, 04:42 AM

Just curious ... do we all just happen to be sitting around the globe in our studios rendering video at the same time?

KillingFrenzy

12th September 2003, 04:46 AM

I think having access to public archives via the internet is a great way to start figuring out this whole mess of licensing our clips so we can play legal. The fact that the BBC is releasing to the public is a step in that direction. Obviously, you can buy rights now, but the process and terms are not very reasonable for doing a Thursday night gig at a local pub. Being able to purchase segments/clips online would open up the world of rights management to nickel and dime users instead of slamming the door in their face whenever they ask the question.
I think online archives are a big step in the right direction, and I'm glad the BBC aren't such vindictive scaredy-cats as the big corporations (at least in this case.)

Rovastar

12th September 2003, 04:48 AM

A reply to Kreils post about 10 minutes ago which is about 10 posts in this crazy thread.

I still do not see it happening all that readily.

Have you seen that DVD's?

How can small groundbreaking label afford to make DVD's (with visauls).

I really don't see it.

Real world example.

A years and a half ago I email many small indy record label with a night my friend was running mostly chilled stuff and asked for any sort of visuals, video clips, pics, etc, etc.

Now I know he did have a name for himself but there was hardly any interest from 50 emails. The (very few) ones that I had some dialogue with and they at first didn't understand what I meant.

I just wanted to promote the label, artists, etc. jpegs, movie clips of the artist, etc, etc I didn't want to be paid for them to do this priviledge.

When they eventually understood.

The new fatboy slim sigle might/will have a video to go with it but is this what DJ's really want to play. I meant big srtists in any sector not all teh small ones.

You find me a DJ that will only play music (and that includs all the seperate mixers) that has video attached to them. There honestly isn't really all that many. ANd to got them on promo.

Normally from my understanding a video get made only when the promo has had success in teh clubs, etc. Unless they are very big acts where they are confident they can spend they money as they will get that return in sales.

Like I said 90 odd % of new music in 'single' form that DJ's get in promo is still on vinyl only mostly. I really do not see where the budget is for the new artists to produce music videos.

True the DJ's may prefer CD's. But the market place is not letting them use them properly even now.

The future may be bright but it is not orange more a hazy grey.

The question was general but I did think of you as a more 'mainstream'. NOthing to do with style just exposure. :)

I imagine no VJ will admit to being mainstream. :);)

unjulation

12th September 2003, 05:01 AM

I think having access to public archives via the internet is a great way to start figuring out this whole mess of licensing our clips so we can play legal

reckon what might happen is that because more people will have acsess to this kinda of footage it will then get used, fine by me, and as V.J.'ing, per-say is becomeing more prominante, then surley it will filiter into the awarnes of the mony people who own this the copyright which in tern will bring it to the for and there will be test case's , what the outcome of those will be i realy dont know, pesamisticly i would think the mony men will win win ala napster etc, but wether that will actualy stop the parctice is anouther thing entily

wellREDman

12th September 2003, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by mondo
[Bi want to learn about the v4, the enhancer, the hippotizer, the dvd scratch player, new bits of kit and software......what's the best way of doing this then?
[/B]

come to AVitUK then,

we should have all of the above (except the poineer unit which still doesnt officially exist) for ppl to play with, as well as demos and workshops in how to use em

holly

12th September 2003, 05:37 AM

Zoooom!

Remember when we were all astonished that the web seemed to offer everything for free? From porn to software to information..., the web was all new and all free. Those companies that wanted to find profit there found it was paper-profit only. Some fell back on the old television standard: profit through advertising, and some found a little success, and most have folded up shop.

In VJing over the last two years we saw almost a new app every month, but now this is starting to slowdown. Use to be a visualizer was $400 (anyone remember Onadime?) now it's generally free. Bedroom VJs are getting better and I've heard from more than a few Old Skoolers that they can't make it in the new VJ scene. When was the last "new" vj app released? No, I mean really new, not VDMX3.x or Arkaos3.x or MD Tokyo (I guess it's unfashionable to count to 4). The apps that were released 2 years ago work even better now on faster computers, why replace software if it works? The new market is in hardware where products didn't exist before. V-4, scratch DVDs, etc. Things are changing, evolve or die.

With the BBC releasing their archive for free, as opposed to the record industry trying to squeeze harder, we see two different approaches to the new times. The BBC has been sitting on a huge (largely valueless) archive of footage. My guess is someone in charge of BBC decided it was time to transfer everything to a digital archive and it's a simple matter of making that archive publicly available. I know CNN, ABC, and most of the American netwroks already have an in-house digital archive so affiliates can grab footage from the server and process them in minutes rather than days of paperwork and crusty old vaults of crumbling videotapes. Here in the States there's been such success re-releasing old content from a generation ago. Once again, if it works better today why bother with an update? Just show the same old stuff to a new audience and save millions. I saw Scooby-Doo on television yesterday (not on cable, but one of the main networks) and it wasn't some stoopid Scooby-Doo 2000 remake, but simply the classic: still funny.

The record industry is sitting on an enormous archive and yet they've refused to go digital or embrace the download revolution. Why? Imagine what could be purchased for a dollar a song that simply isn't out there on Kazaa or Napster.... All our obscure jazz collections could be complete. What is the value of holding on to rotting master tapes when the real money is still made in cross-promotions and silly media campaigns. What about that Elvis song, and how many potential number one hits are just lying in a stack in a refridgerated basement?

Waiting for the music industry to set the tone for the future is just nowhere. They are working on a half-century-old paradigm and they refuse to admit that their 30% drop in sales hasn't come from MP3s but from their cousins in the DVD department. People only have so much entertainment dollar to spend and it ain't going to the same old crappy radio tunes, it's going to flesh out an ever growing home theater and DVD collection.

Video will eat music, not the otherway around.:bottomfee

Kriel

12th September 2003, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by Rovastar
You find me a DJ that will only play music (and that includs all the seperate mixers) that has video attached to them. There honestly isn't really all that many. ANd to got them on promo.

The question was general but I did think of you as a more 'mainstream'. NOthing to do with style just exposure. :)

I imagine no VJ will admit to being mainstream. :);)

About the DJs, I think again what's being forgotten here is that House and its permutations are not the only kinds of club music. Hip-Hop and R&B almost always have videos -- and even if you have a great remix, there's still an associated video from the source mix. Mash-ups/Bootlegs have associated videos, and there are plenty of nights that play this exclusively.

Regarding mainstream, I'm not sure how the question works with this discussion, but I don't think there ARE any mainstream VJs. We're a niche within the niche of club music. However, I do believe this will change, but it will change as VJing evolves into something vastly different than it is now. Just look how different DJing is now from what it was in the 70s, when DJs used to trot out the Top 40 for the kids.

Things changed for a lot of reasons, not the least of which were advances in technology and style. Direct-drive instant-start pitchable turntables, DJ mixers (as opposed to broadcast desks). And records with steady BPM (who'd've thought House music would become an international industry?).