VJ call for Bloc Weekender 2011. [Archive]

fata alex

14th January 2011, 02:49 AM

oh god no, i was hoping this wouldnt come up in public...

i do think it's appalling that they won't pay vjs.

And after vjing there 2 years, and getting messed around last year, i promised myself i wouldn't do it again.

however, the lineup is so good this year that I feel like i could either vj and go (which is presumptuous of me to assume i could have the gig again), or buy a ticket with my friends and go, its a bit of a no brainer really.

But yes, that is me being a traitor to the community, in as much as people who still drive cars are a traitor to the planet, its a drop in the ocean and not gonna make much difference if you stand up for your principles.
(bad analogy i know, im just trying to make myself feel better)

and if i remember correctly elliot, you didn't get paid at the event they put on at motion either? I don't mean to make you feel bad about this, but those events at motion can easily afford to pay vjs (whereas i've heard, although it may or may not be true, that the profit margins at the holiday camp fests are very narrow), it is really a poor show on bloc's behalf that they do this.
I've suggested it to the organisers before -and i'll keep suggesting it to them- that they at least let VJs handle the install so the money they spend on that can go to artists and not a big production company, but no joy yet evidently.

:cool::rolleyes::nono::(:sigh::heart:

what tour are you on tom? (and happy recent b-day btw)

Rovastar

14th January 2011, 02:59 AM

Ok I will try and bite my tongue here.....

But if you want VJs for a big gig like this then really you should give more information/sweeteners for it.

Is this for 1 VJ set for 1 artist? If that is the case then it is more reasonable. What sort of time are you expected to VJ for? How many VJs are you looking for?

In general you know this is a poor deal. for any big festival gig I understand the economics of it but a few suggestions to you and the promoters,

There are 2 options I see for a gig like this either it is sold out or it is not.

If it is sold out then they can afford to pay. They should have budgeted for this. If you are the visual co-ordinator you should be expressing this to the promoters.

I do find it amazing when these big gigs spend tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds on the visual setup but no budget for the content.

If they are worried that they will not sell out/enough tickets and have a shortfall then I suggest that they should have other sweetneers in there. For a festival that is not sold out or a worry of not selling out you could offer more tickets. Instead of the normal (mandatory even...) +1 maybe they could offer +3. Then it becomes a much more attractive option.

Also what VJs are you expecting here for the offer on the table.

A play for a guest pass is really focused on the amateur or new VJs. There are many here that have been doing it for decades.
Is that what the festival wants? A higher percentage chance of fuckups. I am not saying all new VJ will be like this but the promoters must consider this.

What about the plan for next year if you cannot do it for this year?

As the visuals co-ordinator you need to explain these things to the promoter. Please take these comments as constructive.

fata alex

14th January 2011, 03:14 AM

haha, it was a brave move posting that on here elliot, you must have known what you were in for!

Rova, i've suggested those things to both the festival organisers and the previous vj coordinator over the last 2 years, no joy yet.

They must either not be that fussed about the quality of the visuals, or they are confident that the quality of the music lineup and the general fun-ness of the event will make talented people keen to come and play regardless of the conditions, which are poor.
(Un)fortunately, they are right about the 2nd one, and im by no means referring to myself here, but talented vjs have volunteered to perform over the last couple of years for no pay (unless they've just been lieing to me!)

jimmyogenic

14th January 2011, 07:48 AM

ignoring all the other posts about lack of pay etc, i'll be there with my partner in crime adam :)

playing for i heart acid and all our financials are being paid by the artist.

So if your there then i look forward to sillyness aplenty!

alfaleader

14th January 2011, 08:19 AM

Lol, such a great event and they don't want to pay their vjs (and probably spending a lot on the djs).

Makes me think about this:
VJ vs Promoter

deepvisual

14th January 2011, 08:27 AM

I'm of the opinion that VJforums as a community should not permit the posting of these lame excuses for blatent exploitation.
These kind of messages dont belong here and in future should be removed and the posters banned.
This is not endlesscharityforwellhealedpromoters.com
go make your own forum if you want to beg online

mowgli

14th January 2011, 08:35 AM

I know the score and wish I had the budget to pay properly for great talent. Hopefully the experience will be enough for you.

The experience of getting ripped off?
I have an idea, you give us whatever they're paying you and I give you the +1 free ticket for bloc? It's so much fun that you can't call what you do work anyway and you'll have a lot of exposure and might even get some future non-payed jobs which I know you love to do because it's all about the love of the music isn't it?

alfaleader

14th January 2011, 08:36 AM

I can understand that you want to make as much profit you can and don't want to spend a lot on things like the VJ, but you can't ask people to work for free.

You should have at least a little bit respect for others. You can't tell me you can book Magnetic Man and can't pay a VJ ;)

If you work, you should get paid. So please pay jimmyogenic! :p

sleepytom

14th January 2011, 09:18 AM

This message has been removed due to being based on incorrect information - see bloc's clarification further on in the thread.

Scratchpole

14th January 2011, 11:28 AM

I sent both of the organisers the Promoter vs VJ clip after recieving the offer of a free ticket for last years 'festival'. I wonder if they watched it?
This was after playing at their NYE show for £200.

So where is Ryan (VJforum member BlocTV) in all of this? Did they not meet their contractual arrangements with him last year?

Hope you have got it all down on paper with a signature Elliot.

We could collectivley suggest pulling out to any of the musicians/DJ's on the bill that we might know personally....?

I am now going to forward this thread to their stage manager, just to keep them up to date ;)

jimmyogenic

14th January 2011, 11:49 AM

If you work, you should get paid. So please pay jimmyogenic! :p

umm did i say i wasn't getting paid? erm no.

we're playing with a bunch of people as part of the 'i heart acid' show/crew, we come under the banner of i heart acid artists and therefore under the financial responsibility of the good people of 'i heart acid' for all expenses/accom/fee (how many more times can i plug 'i heart acid').

mowgli

14th January 2011, 11:52 AM

so who are you playing for Jimmy?

sleepytom

14th January 2011, 11:53 AM

i dunno do you heart acid?

there is a solution for that anyway...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bY9YgmoQBdQ/ScYSD6IKAVI/AAAAAAAAAGM/zDmdhN2rmN8/s320/gaviscon_liquid_aniseed_600.jpg

jimmyogenic

14th January 2011, 12:09 PM

so who are you playing for Jimmy?

still being confirmed, but defo for AGT rave cru and probably for these too: Altern8, B12, Global Goon, A Guy Called Gerald, Ceephax

:) silly costumes planned

here's a very rough tongue in cheek promo i did for AGT at bloc a few years ago:

YouTube - AGT ravecru BLOC weekender

Niall

14th January 2011, 01:41 PM

I've done bloc for the past years and had a blast. I like doing visuals, and it was a festival I'd go to anyway.

So I'll jump through this picket line and send you an e-mail when I get home.

Rovastar

14th January 2011, 02:04 PM

Scratchpole

14th January 2011, 02:15 PM

I did as I said and forwarded this thread to the aforementioned stage manager, he was not pleased to say the least. I will respect his wishes and not publish his response but suffice to say I don't expect those bridges to be crossed again anytime in the near future.

Niall you may jump but be careful you don't hurt yourself on landing.

fata alex

14th January 2011, 03:09 PM

To be honest I think the 15 year old girl groupies that think they are VJs are worse that the promoters. "Wow, maybe if I do a load of free work I can get off with the DJ....."

Some people should just stick to their bedrooms for VJing you are always going to be amateur.

This ^ is a bit extreme, and in response I'll say something I had previously decided not to.

There are some people who are good at vjing, but this is because they are talented video producers, they make their money elsewhere (motion graphics design, etc etc) and this leaves them free to come and do vjing at events like this for fun, they have no moral issue with doing it, because they'd like to attend such an event, and if they can do a couple of hours vjing in exchange for £150 ticket, thats £75 an hour, more than most motion graphic designers hourly wage. This presents no problem for them.

There are other video producers/artists who have not managed to earn a good living in other related fields and thus (try to?) rely on vjing for an income, they are the ones who get up in arms about 'exploitation' (i mean, come on, lets put this in perspective) etc.

Now all of the above does not negate the fact that Bloc should be paying people properly for their time. (And this thread did spur me on to write a lengthy letter to one of the organisers who i've known for several years, before i ever played at Bloc.) But to some extent guys you need to check yourselves before you wreck yourselves. This is not some sort of Nike sweatshop, its just a big shame that the money they do have goes to overinflated dj prices, and production companies. Hopefully with a little positivity we could change that over time, throwing toys out the pram won't help anything.

Im very sorry to hear your message was badly recieved scratchpole, i considered including a link to this thread in my message to the head blocer, glad i didn't now. The unfortunate fact is that 'the vj community' is not taken seriously at all, and this is not really down to the fact that many are willing to work for free, its down to the fact that many people, who are not really especially that talented act like prima donas sometimes - me included.
We end up sounding like whiney bitches, and if you're visuals aren't so jaw droppingly amazing that the worlds best promoters cannot bear to not have you at their party, then no one is going to care.

mowgli

14th January 2011, 03:42 PM

There are some people who are good at vjing, but this is because they are talented video producers, they make their money elsewhere (motion graphics design, etc etc) and this leaves them free to come and do vjing at events like this for fun, they have no moral issue with doing it, because they'd like to attend such an event, and if they can do a couple of hours vjing in exchange for £150 ticket, thats £75 an hour, more than most motion graphic designers hourly wage. This presents no problem for them.
re.

I'm afraid that this is a load of BS I do design, illustration, motion graphics, advertising AND vjing, ALL of them at a professional level and as such I expect to be payed accordingly. I take all my vjing gigs as serious jobs, not as "a bit of fun" as you seem to suggest. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it but professionalism takes over having fun. Saying that it is the talented vj's who do it for free is the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time. I would say that it is those who can't manage to get payed jobs who would do it for free or those who falsely believe that it will lead to payed jobs.

Thinking that getting a ticket is equivalent to getting payed is a load of nonsense. You need to get in to the event to work, that's like saying that if you work at Disneyland you shouldn't get paid because you're getting in for free!

Vjing is expensive, you need a load of gear which doesn't come cheap and you're carrying it to not the safest place. I wonder what my insurance would say if I propose to pay them with a ticket for Bloc as that is the currency that I deal with.

This offer doesn't even cover expenses such as travel, food etc so effectively you'll be paying to work. If you think that's fair and reasonable then that explains why this kind of proposition keeps coming through and why there are so many events with abysmal visuals which do nothing for the punter, the event and vjing as a whole.

sleepytom

14th January 2011, 04:05 PM

You need to get in to the event to work, that's like saying that if you work at Disneyland you shouldn't get paid because you're getting in for free!

That isn't that far from how it works at Mousewitz!

mashie niblick

14th January 2011, 06:35 PM

Great thread! … tinged with the inevitable sense of déjà vu! It’s sad to think that our collective experience and “nous” still struggles to find a way through all this, particularly as there is VJ representation close to the promoter.

Time to think outside the box (bloc) I guess.

The starting point is that Bloc appear to have sufficient budget for pro level music artists and sufficient budget for pro level sound and visuals rigs, but no budget for pro level VJs. We all assume that the music acts expect visuals. Against that background how about this for a “Formula” (do you have the courage??):

Music acts are free to arrange and bring their own visual artists and recompense them;

Music acts (DJs) who do not have their own visual artists get told they will be playing without visuals unless they make a financial contribution. They also get given an incentive that if they offer a budget for a VJ then Bloc will “match” it by giving the VJ 2 tickets and accommodation;

Music acts decide if they want visuals or not and, if they do, declare their budget to Bloc;

VJs who are interested in playing give Elliott their details and let Elliott know what they would expect to get paid;

BlocTV / Elliott (or other) can then maybe do the match-making (between the acts who offer a budget for visuals and the VJs who offer their services for a price).

This way the acts who want decent professionally produced visuals might get them at something approaching a professional rate, and the acts who don’t value visuals that much, .... probably won’t get that much.

I expect I’ll get told to “get real” and “dream on!” by those at each end of the spectrum. With a mere 5 years on vjforums I tend to steer well clear of the more “political” threads and I’ll no doubt kick myself for daring to contribute to a thread promoter/VJ dynamics. On the other hand this issue seems to exercise so much of every VJ’s emotional energy so I’ll hit the “submit reply” button and hope that at the very least others will have the courage to make their voices heard, and we get inspiration from their opinions and potential solutions.

mashie

mowgli

14th January 2011, 07:14 PM

not strictly related to vjing but very relevant in any case!

http://www.shouldiworkforfree.com/

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3514540/workforfree.jpg

fata alex

14th January 2011, 07:31 PM

Saying that it is the talented vj's who do it for free is the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time. I would say that it is those who can't manage to get payed jobs who would do it for free or those who falsely believe that it will lead to payed jobs.

Thinking that getting a ticket is equivalent to getting payed is a load of nonsense. You need to get in to the event to work, that's like saying that if you work at Disneyland you shouldn't get paid because you're getting in for free!

Vjing is expensive, you need a load of gear which doesn't come cheap and you're carrying it to not the safest place. I wonder what my insurance would say if I propose to pay them with a ticket for Bloc as that is the currency that I deal with.

This offer doesn't even cover expenses such as travel, food etc so effectively you'll be paying to work. If you think that's fair and reasonable then that explains why this kind of proposition keeps coming through and why there are so many events with abysmal visuals which do nothing for the punter, the event and vjing as a whole.

Firstly, as i said in my post, I don't think it's reasonable what Bloc is offering, it's a big pile of shit. But they put on a cool event, which I and many people would like to attend, so when you weigh up paying for a ticket, or doing 2 hours of vjing instead of buying a ticket, what would you do?
But I expect I too, like scratchpole have burned my bridges with Bloc for having written them a letter explaining my thoughts on the matter, i wait with baited breathe for the response. Perhaps it will have made a difference, you never know.

And as to the first paragraph of my post which you quoted, I was merely trying to point out that it's not only talentless amateurs that are willing to play for free - as I felt Rova was implying - there are also people who are happy to play for free because they earn enough money elsewhere, and they enjoy vjing. I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's only talented vjs that will play for free, that would be rediculous, just wanted to point out that talented vjs who are successful enjoy the luxury of being able to chose where they play, regardless of pay.

I'm afraid that this is a load of BS I do design, illustration, motion graphics, advertising AND vjing, ALL of them at a professional level and as such I expect to be payed accordingly. I take all my vjing gigs as serious jobs, not as "a bit of fun" as you seem to suggest. That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it but professionalism takes over having fun.

I'm happy for you that you are so successful in so many fields, i mean that sincerely, no sarcasm, but I think it's a shame that "professionalism takes over having fun" - if you wanted to be at Bloc, and Bloc wanted visuals, but they wouldn't pay, I think it's a shame if you deny your own desire to go and enjoy the weekend because you couldn't get paid to be there. And that's just one way of looking at it, im not saying its the only/correct one.

Hopefully that has clarified my position.

Ultimately, I would like to be at Bloc, I would rather not have to pay for a ticket, and I enjoy VJing (make the connection between those two points yourself). But i feel i have done all i realistically can to encourage bloc to treat myself and all other vjs better. I await their response to see if im gonna be there or not.

Hi Paul, miss you!

vjair

14th January 2011, 07:40 PM

this thread should be split as most of this is off topic for the low paid jobs section ( imo of course )

videoswitchboard

14th January 2011, 08:30 PM

Interesting suggestion Mashie.

:rolleyes:
dav

eaglebot

14th January 2011, 10:48 PM

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ps/223/223385_300.jpg

Ok here go's and I don't want to offend. OK winamp visuals it is... On a positive note I've had great emails from great VJ's.

And as a VJ I sense a real love and passion from everyone joining together on this forum. But, I should have made myself clear from the start. Sorry.

It is good to talk. And without trying to sound patronising there have been some brilliant points raised. The facts are yes, some VJ's are getting paid at Bloc to perform and Bloc have employed VJ's in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

VJ's working with artists are paid but, those preforming alongside artists who haven't requested vj's are asked to do so in exchange for a ticket, chalet and +1. Hopefully this will provide opportunities for less experienced VJ's to play at a larger event in exchange for tickets to the event. Also, (me included in this) some VJ's know Bloc and want to go, do a little work and have an amazing time. Bloc's intention is to put on the best party they can and, despite what some may think, budgets are tight.

The opportunity is there for anyone willing to experience Bloc and make some friends. My intention isn't to cause offense.

For new Vjs: My first big VJ gig was at Bloc 09 and although this didn't open any physical doors and I didn't find promoters emailing me with work. What it did do is give me is the confidence, experience and backing to get me more gigs and progress. I've played a lot of festivals for +1 and I'm now in the position after 2 years to be curating a dance festival, play internationally and work with record labels and create installations etc... and an ego to match.

For pro's; simply don't email me if you don't want to go to Bloc. What I'm offering isn't paid and I know that sucks. But, VJ's are being paid and are working at this festival through means of their own. From my experience every gig is up and down. Some well paid - good artists, and some for 'it will be a laugh'. Just because you say yes to Bloc doesn't mean you have to say yes to every unpaid gig. Choose wisely, be positive and fudging network. If your not enjoying it, don't do it again, that's what I tell my 16 year old groupies anyways. Smoke a Jeff.

No to nego's ! Happy new moon tomorrow!

P.S I seem to have been inundated with visuals of fit women. There are lot's of girls at Bloc who might want to see some cock.

VJair #10 - I had to ask my little sister what 'imo' meant. Thanks mate. x

leolodreamland

14th January 2011, 11:54 PM

bloc is a great party. go vj there. give the spare ticket to a mate who drives, get him/her to pay the petrol and buy the booze. treat the chalet like a hotel room. have fun. meet some crazy dudes. do balloons on the beach and watch the sun come up. that's what i did last time. sometimes there are more important things than money. i do visuals for happy hardcore gigs that pay well, but the music is shit. the people are stupid. it's boring. bloc is the opposite. who cares if the promoters get rich. go and be a promoter if you want to make money. and i did two hours vjing last time.

RayV

15th January 2011, 08:05 AM

P.S I seem to have been inundated with visuals of fit women. There are lot's of girls at Bloc who might want to see some cock.

Do not shit where you eat, Mr. Eaglebot.

you are at a public forum,
coming to ask people to free work for your benefits. whatever it may be,
using a foul language that does offend people who are woman on this forums.

it might hit you as a surprise, but being rude its not acceptable. and putting off communication by vj girls on our forums.

this behavior can be well expected from such people who have no respect to others what-so-ever.

SteveG

15th January 2011, 10:55 AM

I've been deliberately avoiding commenting as I always seem to get attacked for questioning promoters like this. It appears that some of you feel it is right to question and "have a go" at some and not others which is so hypocritical.

Alex has almost nailed it with his comments. Over the last few weeks I've noticed quite a few VJ's advertising this and that and using nothing but mine and others free clips....no problem about lads learning and performing for free...I did it myself. However if your preparing half decent material then you should be charging for your work and efforts.

You are doing your own reputation and the reputation of VJ'ing no good whatsoever when performing free for events and promoters that can well afford to adjust their budgets. Not only this you are stopping your own and the progression of VJ'ing in general.

I totally endorse Gary's opinion in that adds like this should be removed, any ads that are looking to exploit VJ's....no matter what their said causes or excuses.

So Tom, start removing the threads advertising for free work or endorse them you're obviously making the call on this. I feel to allow them to continue encourages others to do likewise after all if a large event like Bloc can be seen to get away with asking for free VJ's and getting free VJ's what chances do new inexperienced or even old and experienced VJ's have of securing a fair fee for their work elsewhere so to that end no matter what good work you do in other areas you are in fact damaging the progression of VJ'ing as a whole.

Edit: While I'm here another idea for you. Only those who contribute by means of a donation to the site can advertise and only VJ's who contribute via a donation to the site can access the Jobs advertisements. Business is business..... I suppose those commercial ideas may go against the grain though :)

vjair

15th January 2011, 11:46 AM

as a general question....

is it right to remove posts / ban people for advertising low or no pay jobs when the forum provides a section called low / no pay jobs for people to post in? the description says "work where there is little or no budget to pay people"

maybe there should be some sort of guidelines as to "fair practice" for posting in this section?

deepvisual

15th January 2011, 11:51 AM

well that would be the plan.
Ne1 suggested redefining it as non profit.
at the moment it all to readily translates into rip off and we are mugs to allow it.
the lo/no section was brought in to separate the charlatans from the genuine. sadly it hasn't helped much at all.

SteveG

15th January 2011, 11:52 AM

It's obviously being abused so personally I'd remove the opportunity. I suggested fair practice guidelines some time ago and the forum decided not to act despite Tom thinking it was a good basis to work from or an idea on which to build something from.

Scratchpole

15th January 2011, 12:01 PM

deepvisual

15th January 2011, 12:08 PM

leolodreamland

15th January 2011, 12:13 PM

i think maybe we're looking at this from the wrong direction. if vjforums could actively encourage companies or festivals to post according to their budgets and actually direct MORE of them to the paid forum it'd be better for all concerned. there is obviously a debate that needs to be had.

cycloptic

15th January 2011, 12:23 PM

Elliott I'm sorry but I've worked with you a few times now both at bloc and glasto and... This is bullshat and you must know it.
Bloc don't always pay for video because it's presented by the coordinator as being optional, it's as simple as that. It's not that there's no money, it's that they don't think they have to pay unless there is a specific need... And this model has worked very well for them: the edginess of the event they put on attracts talent to the punter pool, and they can correctly assume that a lot of that talent would take pride in being involved in the event itself for nothing other than the "love" (aka scene dollars) because honestly the experience gained from spending 2 hours mouse-clicking aimlessly at the same 10 clips on a cracked and obsolete version of modul8... is going to be minimal, wherever in the world you do it.

If I were you I would be wary of taking pride in being in a "curatorial" position which only allows you to exploit.
In future I hope Bloc will stop raking in a host of +1 vjs with very mixed abilities and commitment to their trade providing erratic and flavourless performance and content... in favour of a few talented and paid professionals who would still be willing to work for a reduced rate for that same "love".
This would bring a visual aesthetic in keeping with their music policy. And I think it's your job to get them there.

AV3

15th January 2011, 01:26 PM

Can't believe how much this post bugs me!
It would be easy to get to the position of "curating" a dance festival if you offer stupid rates to the promoter, obviously if you can undercut the guy before the promoter will jump at the offer no matter what you say you can provide!
Providing the same service for less money is the difficult bit.

I "curate" VJs for dance festivals, as do many other people I know of on this forum. But in quoting the promoter we include realistic budgets to pay good VJs, as well as decent kit, and enough crew to cover any situation.
That is a service that our clients want and come back for time and again.
If the promoter cuts the budget, then we can cut the service, not the rates.

There is no future in offering shite for little money and ripping off others, yes its possible to do it once, but when the promoter realises how unprofessional their event looks, they will start looking for more professional companies offering better quality and service, and the VJs you rip of will only work with you once also, and probably tar your name for the future.
So enjoy this year, hope your conscience doesn't spoil your fun.

I think I will start writing my quote for next year!

On another note, I have so much fun at almost every event I do, but professionalism always comes first, and it is always possible to do both at the same time! :)

RayV

15th January 2011, 02:24 PM

Yep I'm down with the 'not for profit'/'fair practice ideas, maybe use the 'should I work for free' document as a guideline...?

I found his sexist remarks repulsive as well. There seems to be fewer women round here than ever before!

Thanks a lot dear for backing me up on this one.
i thought i sound like a one hand clapping in the forest sample.

fata alex

15th January 2011, 02:36 PM

Thanks Steve, nice to see we're on the same page on this one, I would have nailed it even more if i'd grow a backbone and refuse to work for Bloc :rolleyes:...(although i think there's a crucial distinction - were i to vj for them, it wouldnt really be working for them, going and having a little vj for a couple of hours is as much play as it is work, how you view it is a personal thing)

i definitely think we should avoid the idea of removing posts or banning people, you can see from all levels of society that that never helps. This is a community after all and i prefer inclusive ones rather than exclusive ones.

Renaming the section non-profit would help, which would i suppose entail removing posts that weren't from nonprofit orgs?
But then what about people putting on small club nights, that are honestly not likely to make money, but which would gladly receive (and then share) any profit that does arise. (I myself fit into this category when im promoting)
Pre-approval for mods would also work, but could be a lot of work for mods as they'd need to investigate the background of most of the ppl/orgs posting to ascertain whether it was a legit offer.

This weekend I'll go back and try to amend Steve's original guidelines from ages ago, as many thought it was a good idea (not that my edit should be waited on or held in any esteem necessarily!)

And I don't think Elliot was being sexist with his comment, if anything I took it as trying to counteract the inherent sexism in the visuals he's been sent by prospective vjs. He was merely saying that he's been sent a lot of male orientated visuals, and reminding people that there's girls in the audience too - where's the sexy eye candy for them? they're not all lesbians after all

vjair

15th January 2011, 02:42 PM

And I don't think Elliot was being sexist with his comment, if anything I took it as trying to counteract the inherent sexism in the visuals he's been sent by prospective vjs. He was merely saying that he's been sent a lot of male orientated visuals, and reminding people that there's girls in the audience too - where's the sexy eye candy for them? they're not all lesbians after all

this is exactly how i read it. both my girlfriend and my step sister have made the very same comment to me recently in relation to images of female dancers in my visuals.

Niall

15th January 2011, 03:36 PM

Alex is talking a lot of sense.

some text

Does this mean you're not going to this year?
It was a fun time last year.

cycloptic

15th January 2011, 04:02 PM

Well I may be heading down to work with daedelus, but if this callout is the extent of bloc's interest then that one performance will be the extent of my involvment.
I also completely understand you and alex wanting to be involved and you will both provide the much needed quality and higher end of the "mixed abilities" spectrum i was referring to... I just think it's a shame really because I had the feeling the visuals were being taken more and more seriously by bloc, both in terms of the setups being more advanced and the overall atmospherics being more considered. but this callout goes to show that quite the opposite is happening...
bloc is no longer a niche festival, it is now one of the big players on the festival scene and in fact the biggest in it's genre. It's time it took its' production values seriously, and I'm sorry Elliott, but hiring someone with 2 years experience in this industry to coordinate the show is a mistake, regardless of the undeniable quality of their showreel.

mashie niblick

15th January 2011, 07:56 PM

the choices are fairly straightforwards
do nothing - the default mode for vjf with its inbuilt apathy.
prior approval - mods monitor and delete dubious requests
new section - named prostitution/slavery where we can dump this brass necked horseshit

having had a quick browse of the last 30 or so posts in lo/no pay, many of them have been reasonable, only a few of them outrageous.
I'd go with prior approval by a moderator.

Personally, I’d go with “do nothing” (but not out of apathy!).

It can only be healthy that those intermediaries in our profession who think it’s OK to undersell get a direct, robust, reasoned and public “wake up” call from forum members who strongly disagree.

It can only be right that those who claim that there is no budget for visuals at a forthcoming event and that “no VJs are being paid” get exposed when that claim is known to be BS.

(As a balance it’s equally right that those who think VJs and visual artists have some god-given right to a sustainable level of professional fees get the occasional reminder of the harsh commercial realities of life in a free market economy, especially in a culture where VJs are largely perceived as a “nice to have”).

Without these threads many fellow VJs might have no idea of the realities of aspects of our commercial environment and no benchmark against which to measure their own experience. Furthermore they would miss some of the good advice and opinion in forum threads as to how we might individually and collectively address apparent discrepancies in reward and work towards getting a fairer deal.

Lastly I think it’s highly dangerous when any forum judge or jury vote themselves the right to delete threads they suspect of transgressing some “unwritten laws” of fair practice or, just as bad, condemning such threads to some category designed at public humiliation (often engendering sympathy for a cause that deserves none).

Let the forum continue to be self-regulating in this respect. Let the forum members continue to be the judge of what is honest, fair and right.

Mashie (on his soap box)
.

fata alex

16th January 2011, 05:46 AM

It can only be healthy that those intermediaries in our profession who think it’s OK to undersell get a direct, robust, reasoned and public “wake up” call from forum members who strongly disagree.

It can only be right that those who claim that there is no budget for visuals at a forthcoming event and that “no VJs are being paid” get exposed when that claim is known to be BS.

(As a balance it’s equally right that those who think VJs and visual artists have some god-given right to a sustainable level of professional fees get the occasional reminder of the harsh commercial realities of life in a free market economy, especially in a culture where VJs are largely perceived as a “nice to have”).

Without these threads many fellow VJs might have no idea of the realities of aspects of our commercial environment and no benchmark against which to measure their own experience. Furthermore they would miss some of the good advice and opinion in forum threads as to how we might individually and collectively address apparent discrepancies in reward and work towards getting a fairer deal.

Let the forum continue to be self-regulating in this respect. Let the forum members continue to be the judge of what is honest, fair and right.
.

Although i think many of the points you make are valuable, we have to try and avoid these repetitive debates. But perhaps a sticky in the 'just starting' forum could give some background on these issues and the realities of the commercial climate we operate in.

And I assume with your "no vjs are being paid" quote that you are referring to Eaglebot's statement - I don't think he was bullshitting, I think he was only referring to the vjs he had been asked to book, not the vjs that were being provided by outside artists/promoters.
You can attack him for working with bloc on this unpleasant debacle, but lets not accuse him of lies and sexism guys, c'mon, keep things real.

Please find here my attempt at an amended draft of Steve's Promoter Guide:
http://vjforums.com/showthread.php?t=34590&page=3

although im still not convinced there's any use in it, as there is no way to make sure people actually read it, or care what it says. Posts can be approved (or not) or removed if necessary regardless of any guide.

cycloptic

16th January 2011, 05:09 PM

sorry alex i didn't mean to imply that elliott was lying, as i don't think that's the case, i meant that the situation was "bs" (an americanism i guess) and that there IS a budget for visuals, there has been a budget, and there always will be a budget, but as it stands it's not allocated to people providing content because the promoters still haven't suddenly woken up one day and realised they're willing to pay for something they've almost always been getting for free.
That's where the working model needs to be changed.

And yeah of course his comment wasn't sexist, I'm not even sure how that could have been read into what he posted without moving ALL the words around into a different order.

deepvisual

16th January 2011, 05:19 PM

And yeah of course his comment wasn't sexist, I'm not even sure how that could have been read into what he posted without moving ALL the words around into a different order.

well, its an international forum and not everyone speaks english as a first language, besides which there is no universal cultural norm in these matters.

lets put it this way, you wouldn't talk to your mother like that... so its hardly surprising someone was offended.

fata alex

16th January 2011, 05:43 PM

mashie niblick

16th January 2011, 06:58 PM

And I assume with your "no vjs are being paid" quote that you are referring to Eaglebot's statement.

and

I knew what you meant, it was Mashie who i thought was being a bit over accusatory with his bullshit allegation.

Really Alex, you can "assume" or "think" what you like.

As it happens, and just for the record, I wasn't - as I saw it the thread had already developed into a wider discussion on BS by promoters and intermediaries and how these should be dealt with, and I was merely responding to the choices open to the forum that were suggested by Deepvisual :)

If it makes you feel any easier, or if it makes it any clearer, just take what I said:

It can only be right that those who claim that there is no budget for visuals at a forthcoming event and that “no VJs are being paid” get exposed when that claim is known to be BS.

and substitute the words "ANY PROMOTERS or INTERMEDIARIES" for the word "THOSE", so it reads:

"It can only be right that any promoters or intermediaries who claim that there is no budget for visuals at a forthcoming event and that “no VJs are being paid” get exposed when that claim is known to be BS."

Happy Now? :D

fata alex

16th January 2011, 10:22 PM

I'm sorry Paul, I mis-remembered the early posts in this thread and thought you had directly quoted some accusations thrown at eaglebot about some vjs being paid and others not. This i assumed was a reference to this example and not a general principle about promoters on the whole.

Now that ive gone back and re-read the posts, what you said wasn't even that similar, so i shouldnt have even made the assumption, regardless of what you meant.

Please accept my sincerest appologies.

and to lighten up everybody's day, here's a video i recently found amusing:

YouTube - Skyjack DUI

asterix

16th January 2011, 10:28 PM

Play for tix at successful and financially stable events does several things:

It shows a clear and utter disrespect for the value of vjing. If the promoter were serious about putting on a good show, vj's would be chosen based on quality, not by whether they would play free or not.
It allows any old git up on stage, the standard drops immensly. The 'brand' of vjing industry is affected,and I believe that means less paid work in teh grand scheme of things.
That means more and more promoters can justify dropping their standards. Again, the medium loses out.
It does the opposite to encouraging growth and personal development in the industry and is clearly exploitative.

The worst thing about all this is that its usually defended and administered by vj's. The whole cycle begins when an event is in its infancy and the community jumps forward to support it like it were some charitable cause. I don't have a problem with this if its a free or nfp event.

But at some point the vj co-ordinators and community need to dig in their heels and say - sorry mate - you're an established event now, you've enjoyed a free ride and thats helped you grow. Now lets raise the bar, do the right thing; and get your check book out.

SteveG

17th January 2011, 06:30 AM

The worst thing about all this is that its usually defended and administered by vj's. The whole cycle begins when an event is in its infancy and the community jumps forward to support it like it were some charitable cause. I don't have a problem with this if its a free or nfp event.

But at some point the vj co-ordinators and community need to dig in their heels and say - sorry mate - you're an established event now, you've enjoyed a free ride and thats helped you grow. Now lets raise the bar, do the right thing; and get your check book out.

Well said.

theharper08

17th January 2011, 03:32 PM

Is this the same Bloc that had their own field (Bloc 9) at Glasto last year and reportedly spent £80k on that project, and is failing to pay VJs for this event? They didn't pay their VJs at Glastonbury either, if it is the same production company. Though managed to build the tallest structure at the festival for one of their venues, and pay 100s of crew members to construct the entire establishment. Amazing as it was, looking at it this way brings out the angry VJ in me!

fata alex

17th January 2011, 06:11 PM

theharper08

17th January 2011, 06:59 PM

Ha. That's ok then!

sleepytom

17th January 2011, 10:46 PM

Indeed Block9 are different to Bloc - FWIW £80k is a tiny budget for the amount of stuf they had in the field at glastonbury, bear in mind that several people worked for over a year to design and create the structures, and their was a team on-site for over a month. Nobody got rich from that project and a lot of people who worked a hell of a lot harder than the VJs also received only a ticket as payment.

WinstonSalem

18th January 2011, 02:37 AM

Just to stick my 2 cents in.

I can't understand why you lot are all getting so riled up.

Its a simple question really, well two questions: Do you VJ? Do you want to go to Bloc for free? A chalet and a +1 is a bloody good deal if you ask me.

This is how it looks to me: the VJs who come with the musicians get paid therefore they are PROFESSIONALS, artistic professionals maybe but professionals none the less. If you aren't working for the musicians (either at Bloc or for Lady Gaga or whatever) then you are merely an ARTIST. Everybody knows there is very little money in the world to go around for artists. I bet some of you DJ, I bet you'd DJ anywhere for free.

Can you even begin to imagine how much an event like Bloc costs to put on, Aphex Twin, Magnetic Man, Laurent Garnier, Modeselektor etc etc, these guys aren't just artists, they are brands - they cost a fortune - Butlins obviously costs a fortune. Think how much it costs to hire not a just a holiday park, but the premier example of its kind in the UK. 24 hour security for 3 days, stage managers and runners who don't sleep for a whole weekend. The promotors probably work their arses off all year round to make this happen. And you guys are moaning about one or two hours work doing the thing you supposedly love? You consider yourselves artists right? Van Gogh sold like one painting in his lifetime, Adolf Hitler was a more successful painter. Do you think when Damian Hirst sells one of his spot paintings for a million dollars he splits the money between him and the assistant who painted it. I doubt it. Classical composers famously don't get recognised until after they die, skint, having spent their entire adult lives writing music for Kings and fucking Queens. Most people are happy to gain an experience and get another entry on the list of their CV. VJing at Bloc looks good on your CV, even better if you did it for love not money. It shows you are passionate about your art / work. What would you rather a prospective employer saw, you played at some crappy throwaway nightclub for money, or had an association with the names listed above in exchange for free tickets to a festival that you're going to enjoy anyway.

Again, a chalet and a +1 is a good deal, thats £300 of tickets, even more if it sells out - I would've thought supply would whoop demands ass.

So, back to the questions: do you VJ? Do you want to go to Bloc for free?

If you're gonna rant about it you might as well not bother - you've got no argument and nothing to prove.

Oh and Scratchpole, did you really defriend the promoters on Facebook? Really? - You don't deserve to get anywhere with that attitude.

deepvisual

18th January 2011, 07:42 AM

I can't understand why you lot are all getting so riled up.
because you are biased
whats all this two hour bullshit?
Bloc behave like a supermarket, pushing workers and suppliers hard to lower their prices to the point where they hardly make any money. But dont worry, Bloc makes money, you can be sure of that.
I personally have been conned into providing equipment for a 9 day sub hire for Bloc and then told they can only afford to pay for two days. Never again.
same goes for the staff who as we can see are now under pressure to work for tix that effectively cost bloc nothing, nothing at all. £300 my arse. If bloc catch you selling them you'll be out on your ear.
more importantly, your argument revolves around the fact that the VJ will be a bloc punter. if so, why post here, they should post on their own forum.

Cheapstick rip off merchants like Bloc, will be up in arms if you treat them the way they treat their staff.
for some reason, people think that just because punters enjoy themselves at a rave, then the regular laws of business should not apply.
how wrong can you be. nothing but a con.
bloc is a business, just like macdonalds, just like starbucks.
do you understand now?

Scratchpole

18th January 2011, 10:07 AM

Oh dear!
Will the real WinstonSalem please stand up. (I assume you are one of the Bloc partners).

You know a lot about a little UK event seeing as you are based in NY.
It's OK buddy I wouldn't want to stay on a 'holiday camp' anyway and I was beyond sucking up to amateur event organisers who cannot pay me more than 10 years ago.

FBK 'friends' who have only ever interacted with me for promotional purposes often get deleted. Yes I do as I say. Unlike some people I have met in the industry.

I'm sure Bloc 'festivals' punters and sponsors would love to see this thread.

videoswitchboard

18th January 2011, 10:11 AM

do you understand now?

:spank: :lol2:

evomedia

18th January 2011, 11:23 AM

I'd advise against people doing Bloc, several people here have been seriously burned by Bloc in that past, they pay some people but not others.

Bloc last year had a capacity of 5000 punters last year with tickets averaging £140, some higher some lower but I'd say they must clear £700,000 from ticket sales, plus merchandising on top. And they do sell out each year.

Its also not like many festivals, they have a site that is already secure, with facilities already their, it is in a holiday camp remember, so things like toilets and accommodation are no way near as taxing on the profit margin as many festies.

If they want VJ's to work they should treat them the same as the lighting techs that do get paid.

Can you even begin to imagine how much an event like Bloc costs to put on, Aphex Twin, Magnetic Man, Laurent Garnier, Modeselektor etc etc, these guys aren't just artists, they are brands

Lol, never read such rubbish, does being well know suddenly mean they are the only ones Bloc deams worthy of payment? And yes I do know how much they cost as my brother used to work organising festivals. The problem is that Bloc simply doesn't even budget to pay VJ's, its nothing to do with how much it costs, its failure to include costs like VJing at all, other festivals have managed to pay the VJ's and give tickets, even if its minimal.

In any other club night, the DJ and the VJ gets paid, and those promoters are working on budgets that are tiny in comparison. Its only festivals that seem to view the VJ's don;t deserve payment.

A free ticket is not payment, the guys on the gates get a free ticket, but how many of them have to carry tens of thousand worth of kit to earn the same free ticket. Not all Vj's sit in tiny clubs with a laptop, many are running tour visuals for headline acts, and are running off media servers, LEDs, doing full scale building mapping and multiscreen shows, the question is why are Vj's being treated like the guy who sites outside a campsite gate.

Its a dance festival, they want VJ's, so they must see some real benefit, so rather than kill the market by treating them as unskilled wannabe punters looking for a free ticket and start treating them as professionals that create more engaging and immersive stage shows. The problem is that Bloc is a great stage to promote VJing, but lack of support for VJ's in terms of payment means you get inexperienced VJ's left as the only ones willing to accept the job, so punters loose out, they will see sub standard visuals compared to what is possible. That's a real shame. A decent VJ could create something amazing at Bloc but 2 free tickets hardly makes generating content or a better show worthwhile,

Honestly people should steer well clear of bloc for their lack of interest in supporting dance scene in all its aspects, club culture isn't simply about the DJ these days, they have consistently ripped off VJ's, they accept quotes then fail to pay for what was quoted... if you want to work for people like that then its your choice, but the most experience VJ's here wouldn't touch a bloc event these days, and thats for good reasons

So WinstonSalem you ask why are people whining, its simple.... Bloc have been gaining a bad reputation amongst many VJ's, that's down to past actions, and remember this is not the first year they have said no budget for VJ's, once is bad but accepted, but this becoming a yearly occurrence, I simply despair at their ongoing lack of ability to budget for the services they continue to demand.

WinstonSalem

18th January 2011, 12:05 PM

Oh dear!
(I assume you are one of the Bloc partners).

You know a lot about a little UK event seeing as you are based in NY.

You assume I am a partner because I know who is on the line up and how much a ticket costs? I used the internet, buddy, same place I found out you are 35 years old, which I found, quite frankly, flabbergasting.

I am based in NY and myself work in video, but have been to Bloc, (as a paying punter) both at Hemsby and Minehead, and its not hard to see what a small homespun event it is. Don't you think its better off for anyone interested in electronic music (and visuals) that this event happens in the first place rather than trying to bloody its name on a public forum. You give em a guy who's perfect and they hang him on a cross. Jeez - its the not the fault of one festival that no one takes VJing seriously enough. You talk of Bloc being like a supermarket. Have you seen how people get treated at Glastonbury? - I know people who have spent a week of 12 hour days building and decorating the interior of a tent for absolutely nothing but free entry. They didn't complain once, and that was proper manual labour.

Oh and deepvisual

I'm of the opinion that VJforums as a community should not permit the posting of these lame excuses for blatent exploitation.
These kind of messages dont belong here and in future should be removed and the posters banned.

This is a fucking internet forum not North Korea (with a section clearly headlined low no pay jobs, what were you even doing in here if you are so against the whole idea!?!?!?!?). As for:

bloc is a business, just like macdonalds, just like starbucks.

clearly unlike 'deepvisual' though, otherwise you'd be inundated with work and wouldn't have the time or the need to even bother to consider reading this thread in the first place.

Theres money for VJs, I bet the Moderat guys get their cut, and the dude who does the visuals for Aphex. But face it, you're all skint and bitter at the fact that you are incredibly insignificant in your fields - no doubt jealous of Weirdcore and Pfadfinderei etc etc. And judging by some of your largely belligerent comments here, impossible to work with and thus unemployable anyway.

deepvisual

18th January 2011, 12:06 PM

I remember a few years back, Gay Pride had an event at the academy and afterwards they claimed they couldn't pay.
a few days later we got an email from the management saying that they couldn't issue payments because the head of security had walked into their office, held the accountant down on the table and stubbed a cigar out on his face, when he said he couldn't pay them.
needless to say, he wrote the cheque.

I dare bloc to tell security they can work for tix.
go on, I dare you..

deepvisual

18th January 2011, 12:11 PM

Oh and deepvisual
This is a fucking internet forum not North Korea

ah a fan. I'm flattered.
go do some research on deepvisual (http://www.deepvisual.com/touring.html).
you'll find out how hard up and unsuccessful I am.

BTW its 100 years since the birth of Kim Il Sung this year.. the party is going to be awesome. wonder if they'll let us work for tix?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_8pauOsaPzao/RxNWKuUC5aI/AAAAAAAAADI/JaWGIR38jrU/s400/Nork+Girls.jpg

evomedia

18th January 2011, 12:24 PM

clearly unlike 'deepvisual' though, otherwise you'd be inundated with work and wouldn't have the time or the need to even bother to consider reading this thread in the first place

Theres money for VJs, I bet the Moderat guys get their cut, and the dude who does the visuals for Aphex. But face it, you're all skint and bitter at the fact that you are incredibly insignificant in your fields - no doubt jealous of Weirdcore and Pfadfinderei etc etc. And judging by some of your largely belligerent comments here, impossible to work with and thus unemployable anyway.

WinstonSalem I'm actually finding your comments deeply unpleasant, first post with no idea whats happened in the past, the only reason you can post on this forum at all is the team of dedicated people that give their time for free. If you think VJing is so worthless why even register here. You obviously view vjing as second rate else why dig at people for trying to raise its value? I simply can't see a single reason why you even came to a VJ forum. Why not register at a dj forum too and say your all a bunch of low life scum

Your talking to people who are not skint, Your talking to people that do earn a living from VJing, to call them incredibly insignificant in their fields... thats down right unacceptable, what one post on a forum and a 2 second search about names makes you an expert in peoples careers?

People complianing about Bloc have worked with Bloc before, not just there as a punter, I trust the opinions of people who have real knowledge of working for them.

What makes you an expert in Vjing? Most of top100 Vj's poll are members here, the VJ's who do the visuals for most of the UK festivals, the booking agents for VJ friendly festivals like the Big Chill,

Can I ask what commercial experience you actually have?

I'd rather press ignore on all your posts, so I don't have to read such posts that are completely uninformed. personally I'd rather not know but I think you should justify your superior knowledge of the UK festival scene. Not just from a perspective of having a mate who decorated a tent in glasto once.

Maybe you just want to spend your day throwing s**t at random people in the street, as it seems your determined to try and offend the entire VJ community. Welcome to VJ forums, just what we need a member thats thinks all VJ's are skint, worthless and insignificant

deepvisual

18th January 2011, 12:49 PM

actually all this talk of North korea has reminded me of this:

Rock For Peace Festival - Pyongyang (http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/600861/part_2/from-despotandx2019s-pr-man-to-surrey-salesman.thtml)
The festival would be called Rock for Peace, an event of ‘capitalist popular music’ in Pyongyang. It would be open to any band — as long as they promised not to sing ‘admirations on war, sex, violence, murder, drug, rape, non-governmental society, imperialism, colonialism, racism, anti-DPRK and anti-socialism.’

the plan was simple. artists would pay their own airfare to North Korea and play for free and in return have the priviledge of entertaining Kim Jong Il.

needless to say, no one was interested. In the end, the project collapsed when the European promoter found out that most of the country was at the brink of starvation while the ruling classes drank Remy Martin.
however it seems the North Korean business model has caught on (http://vjforums.com/showpost.php?p=270088&postcount=1)...

devonmiles

18th January 2011, 12:54 PM

Just to stick my 2 cents in.

You consider yourselves artists right? Van Gogh sold like one painting in his lifetime, Adolf Hitler was a more successful painter. Do you think when Damian Hirst sells one of his spot paintings for a million dollars he splits the money between him and the assistant who painted it. I doubt it. Classical composers famously don't get recognised until after they die, skint, having spent their entire adult lives writing music for Kings and fucking Queens. Most people are happy to gain an experience and get another entry on the list of their CV. VJing at Bloc looks good on your CV, even better if you did it for love not money. It shows you are passionate about your art / work. What would you rather a prospective employer saw, you played at some crappy throwaway nightclub for money, or had an association with the names listed above in exchange for free tickets to a festival that you're going to enjoy .

Winston Dude, if youre gonna talk about art or music please do your homework aforehand. every second sentence is so full of bullshit or wrong assumptions, I would feel insulted if it werent so ridiculous.

the truth is: Bloc will not make your CV look any better. even more, nobody gives a fart if you played at Bloc and you wont get a single well paying gig elsewhere just because you played at some bloody festivals.

I dont feel too inclined to actively take part in this discussion any further because I am seriously ill and chances are I can never perform onstage again. I just wanted to leave as statement as somenone who has played many many top festivals as a well acclaimed and more or less well paid VJ.

SteveG

18th January 2011, 12:57 PM

WinstonSalem, Deepvisual is an honest hard working guy who is extremely experienced. He is held on this forum in the highest regard and is a friend. So like evomedia above tend to find your tone and comments unpleasant.

I can understand people becoming annoyed and arguments becoming heated and personal things then being said when pushed, I've done it myself only yesterday;)

I wont discuss the comments or Bloc but ask you this

Are you asked almost on a weekly basis to work for free?

Do you work for free when all other workers around you are paid?

Should your work in video be of a decent standard and above the standard of those around you do you find it insulting that people are asking you to work for free whilst lining their own pockets with profit?

I've said to some this morning that personally I'm staying off the forum, however, your comments have forced me to come out in defence of someone you have totally misunderstood and whose experience you greatly underestimate.

The best thing would be to leave the thread and let Bloc themselves answer the questions posed here by UK working VJ's.

......now back back to some real work for me ;)

WinstonSalem

18th January 2011, 02:10 PM

Ok, I've been cruising around this forum for years, and I have even learnt stuff from it now and again, from deepvisual among others. Your Modul8 tutorials were very helpful, thank you, although I use Max these days.

As soon as I read this thread I was shocked at the negativity towards Bloc, which I consider people in the UK lucky to have such an event. I would've thought people would be bending over backwards to be involved. Everyone knows that there is little potential to earn money at festivals, its a fact. Maybe the the guys on here from the Big Chill can explain why my girlfriend didn't get paid for stewarding for three days straight in 2006, why dont you attack them? Or the organizers of the Rocket festival where no one got paid a penny - or label Michael Eavis a crook? Damon Albarn has probably taken home nigh on half a millon in two years, yet thousands of troops dont see jack. And again, they're actually working, doing something unenjoyable, not pursuing their art.

If there is one thing I hate, its people getting riled up to shit on anothers strawberries, a bit like fox hunt protestors - if you dont want to go hunting, then just dont go, leave the people who do alone. If you dont want to work for free, then don't. Leave the people who are happy to do so alone. Deepvisual, and I mean no offence: I just don't see the point in you even browsing this thread if you don't dig the subject matter, if you make money from what you do then what skin is it off your nose? Why try and and put amateurs and aspiring professionals less experienced than yourself off, and with such venom? Surely that in itself is bad for the community.

Publicly bad mouthing another mans business (and you have to remember, this is someones livelihood), doesn't look good for anyone, especially the badmouther and his vehicle (this forum). Its childish.

Why not register at a dj forum too and say your all a bunch of low life scum
.
You don't hear amateur DJs grumbling at the prospect of a set at a festival full of big names - you just don't. And not to say you're all amateurs, but you lot must know better than anyone than VJing is peripheral to the music. Thats not meant to be an insult, I work with music and video (thus have as much right to be on this forum as anyone else), yet I never forget this fundamental fact: without the music the there would be no need for a VJ. And thats not me being awkward - its a stone cold fact. Maybe stuff like the new Hawtin and DJ Shadow shows will change this, but its v v early days. If deepvisual and others keep telling people off for playing for free then it will never happen. (I think its worth mentioning here that the Hawtin visuals were made by the winners of a competition, who I assume don't complain about the lack of funds given to them. Just depends whose asking I guess).

Can I ask what commercial experience you actually have?

I have a special practice. I handle one client. I'd dont like to use his name unless its absolutely necessary.

For what its worth I have worked, and still work for free for hours and hours of my life, because I love what I do, and every minute that I am working I learn something new. What are you going to do if you DONT play at Bloc, go down the pub and watch the football??

deepvisual

18th January 2011, 02:21 PM

cheer up mate, its not just bloc, they all get a hard time on here when they take the piss.

archaos circus, glastonbury, Cirque du Soleil, they all thrive on people's goodwill while the guys at the top go home in a limo.
of course, without these parasites, there would be nothing, so in one respect it's the lesser of two evils.
truth is we dont have to pay someone else for permission to be nice to each other.

Burning man?
its America's version of a free festival.
which is why it isn't free.
The whole place was founded on theft and greed, why should BM be any different.

it would be far more authentic if they burnt money.
Where's the KLF when you need them...

its a double edged sword. put up with the parasites who milk the scene - so the cops and politicians can get their payoff and leave everyone alone, or do it yourself and take the risk that you'll get busted, or trampled by the Hells Angels or whatever professional villain stumbles into your little corner of paradise. same applies to glastonbury or global gathering or any of the legit festivals..
it sucks either way.
as decent humans we can do better, but not while we are totally surrounded by absolute bastards.

evomedia

18th January 2011, 02:31 PM

That was more constructive than the previous posts

What are you going to do if you DONT play at Bloc

For me, paid work if that's ok, I've done plenty of free gigs, I couldn;t care less about a free ticket to a festival, I do enough festivals every year to not get excited.

Everyone knows that there is little potential to earn money at festivals, its a fact. Maybe the the guys on here from the Big Chill can explain why my girlfriend didn't get paid for stewarding for three days straight in 2006, why dont you attack them? Or the organizers of the Rocket festival where no one got paid a penny - or label Michael Eavis a crook? Damon Albarn has probably taken home nigh on half a millon in two years, yet thousands of troops dont see jack. And again, they're actually working, doing something unenjoyable, not pursuing their art.

Yep thats why festival organisers like easis are multi millionaires...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23709674-glastonbury-festival-is-not-just-a-beanfeast-its-a-70-million-business-too.do

Eavis himself only gets a mere £585,000 for his 3 days festy poor man, thats his personal payment not what the festival itself makes. Festivals are massive cash generators but also hold big risks

As for the big chill the guy here only took care of booking the VJ talent, so no point complaining about not getting paid for stewarding, different booking, also again did she have to bring thousands of pounds of her own belongings and leave them on a stage for her ticket?

As for other festies like glasto, this discussion is exactly the same as the play for tickets posts that appear before that as well, and burning man, and a whole host of others so don't be confused that its just anti bloc.

And again, they're actually working, doing something unenjoyable, not pursuing their art.

As for that, I'm not a artist, I am a professional service if you think VJing a festival isn;'t work, you've never worked one . A design student may design a logo for free but an agency won't touch the job, an guy wandering about in a festival gets a ticket, the AV company providing the stage lighting gets paid.

I can work at bloc and get a free ticket just by working as a steward and walking around all day, or I could carry in tens of thousands worth of kit for the same reward. We don't supply AV equipment, make custom content and spend 10 hours VJing as a favour. BLoc is about making its organisers money believe me. But like all festies that wealth rarely see's all the other people who make it actually happen

I've worked at events with a load of DJ's and less budget and yet they can pay me for tickets/drinks/travel/content creation as well as a healthy payment for the work.

For you its art, but obviously you have zero commitments that have to be covered

I work producing video/websites/ illustration/packaging/graphic design for top design firms, I've worked with hundreds of clients, commercially VJing is the only field that people are expected to play for free everytime..

I get a free ticket for most festivals doing one shift driving medical supplies around on a little buggy, I get more perks, less work and only have to turn up, I see no point VJing at festivals these days as they are the most hassle, most demanding, and I don't even have to bring a single cable.

If you think we should be grateful to festies for offering us the chance to play at all, and that we should be glad of their endless generosity, or that it somehow will be great for our CVs....well that statement is the most commonly hated of all client views, that somehow exploiting people is doing that person a favour. Its all bull, I'd rather they hired 2 or 3 vjs at a real rate and stopped the callouts to play for essentially free entry.

Off topic...

a bit like fox hunt protestors - if you dont want to go hunting, then just dont go, leave the people who do alone.

Lol why do you care about UK foxhunting, this ain't america, we dont all agree with the idea of killing animals by packs of dogs, people may not go hunting but can disagree with it, thats called inteligent thought, I don't bomb buildings but should I allow other people too? I don't want to be a nazi, but you think its wrong to question their motives. People here VJ, they can compare different offers, I know the play for tickets strategy isn't just bloc, its a wider issue, every promoter thinks that they can get custom content, free projectors, free labour all night (often 12 hours +) for 2 pints of lager. Yet the guy hanging the coats up gets an hourly rate.

Yep free tickets for a club night that you spend the whole night working, or free drinks when you have to drive a few hundred miles home at the end, just a few of the endless offers that are just so generous

evomedia

18th January 2011, 03:08 PM

From another thread posted this week...should I work for free

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3514540/workforfree.jpg

bloc. dont shoot.

18th January 2011, 03:10 PM

hi guys

bloc here - longtime lurker, first time poster ;)

Actually this thread got fwd'd to us [bloc management] after Joe sent the link to our freelance production manager and we've read it since it first got started.

We generally shy away from posting on nasty threads about bloc on the internet because my experience of forum disagreements is that it quickly degenerates into trench warfare with both sides firmly dug in and hurling their arsenals at each other in a zero sum game of total annihilation.

It's worked better for us in the past to just keep a low profile, lose ground to whatever marauding foreign warrior we're faced with and just hope after while they realise there wasn't much to be gained by arguing anyway and kind of run out of steam. So please take on board what we're saying as we don't want to enter into a protracted debate which goes on even longer. We've got a festival to put on!

But I can't help but think this has all got a little out of hand and stems from some pretty fundamental misunderstandings about festivals, bloc and the people who run it so I hope that a quick light-hearted look at what got all this started will set us all on the path to truth & reconciliation.

Elliott's original post was a little bit misleading. We feel that by advertising for 'unpaid' positions at Bloc, we were misrepresented. The post suggests that we don't have a budget for video, and that none of the video artists involved in the festival are paid. This has never been the case.

In actual fact, we were looking for a handful of slots to be filled by some willing guys who just fancy a weekend away for them and their mates.

Looking at this in detail, we are looking for a total of seven hours (across the whole weekend) to be filled.

That is absolutely disgraceful.

Bloc 2011 is shaping up to be an A/V extravaganza and all of the rest of the stage time is being taken up by VJs either directly hired by us (stand by for an announcement on this in mid-feb) or by the many acts who have in-house video teams working with them.

Although we are in no position to comment on other people's arrangements, I have little doubt that all of the fantastic video guys are all being paid properly for their work on shows like AFX, Magnetic Man, Vitalic, Four Tet, Dopplerefekt, Moderat etc. They have some special stuff planned by the looks of their riders and i'm really looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

We have enjoyed hiring many amazing visual artists over the years, including The RFID (YouTube - rfid@bloc2010), AntiVJ, Pfadfinderei, Weirdcore, David Terranova etc etc. and will continue to do so in future.

In other words, we DO have a budget for this kind of thing.

But just as with the dozens of DJs who have been happy to play for free tickets and accommodation over the years, the festival simply can't afford to pay every single person involved. Believe me, the budget for video, music, technical and just about everything else for Bloc 2011 has been well and truly smashed and it's going to be an amazing show this year.

If a few people would like to accept the offer we've made to come to Bloc to VJ for artists who don't already have their own visuals, we'd really like them to. They're support slots, that's all.

If they would prefer not to, there are no hard feelings. Words like 'exploit' are a bit overblown in this context surely?

Bloc doesn't make a lot of money. Sometimes, it loses money. What are VJ's opinions on sharing the loss if an event loses money? ;)

Bloc's been tagged as having corporate sponsorship. We do have a sponsor this year - the sinister corporation Ableton, who inflicted upon the world the 'Ableton live' instrument of oppression.

We work with them much more because we agree with what they do and are loved by the people who go to bloc than the filthy lucre changing hands, because independent festival sponsorship is (believe it or not) not a massive money-spinner.

We've also been tagged as greedy here too. That's really not fair. There are just 2 of us and we run a small business. In order to keep the business running, we try not to spend money unnecessarily.

Some of you on the thread have done some armchair adding up on the 'income' side of bloc and have concluded its mega-profitable. What you haven't considered that it might be fairly expensive to put on. 700k coming in is great, but if you've got overheads of 800k, you'd be significantly better off with a paper round. Or as a VJ.

Really the worst thing that was said about bloc and what made me decide to post this, was;

I personally have been conned into providing equipment for a 9 day sub hire for Bloc and then told they can only afford to pay for two days. Never again.

You really need to contact us direct if an agreement for 9 days hire was reneged upon. For the record we've never been approached with this query and never go back on agreements once they have been made.

and this

I'd advise against people doing Bloc, several people here have been seriously burned by Bloc in that past, they pay some people but not others.

Is also a bit misleading. Some people don't get paid - but only by prior agreement. We don't promise people wages and then not pay them. We're proud of the fact that every bill from every Bloc has always been covered which is more than can be said for many other events of this kind. We try to run a tight ship.

the most experience VJ's here wouldn't touch a bloc event these days, and thats for good reasons

As said above, plenty of highly regarded VJ's do actually enjoy, work at and return to Bloc. We work with some of the most renowned and well respected video artists in the world. The proof of the pudding is in the quality of the show.

So, Joe Catchpole - was nice to meet you at that NYE gig last year, and yes as you mention, we did pay you 200 quid, which was as much as we could afford on the budget that we had. You probably also remember that we we took you out for dinner before the show and looked after you as best we could, keeping you refreshed with beverages where possible. We really thought that we got on OK. I think you've made a bit of a meal out of this and there are better targets for your outrage.

So, VJ Forums - if you don't want to VJ for what someone's offering, just decline. Like I said above - no hard feelings.

go in peace :)

PS for what its worth, I watched the promoter / VJ clip and lol'd my head off.

bloc. dont shoot.

18th January 2011, 03:14 PM

here are a couple more video bits that we have had commissioned recently -

http://vimeo.com/16848332

http://vimeo.com/18508883

we hope to have both video artists working at the festival this year too. I think weirdcore is already working for aphex which is cool

evomedia

18th January 2011, 03:30 PM

Thank you Bloc, the original post was indeed misleading, if you take a look at our lo/no paid section you'll see hundreds of simular posts, and lately we have been seeing some promoters really acting underhand. I really appreciate you taking the time to discuss the thread

These posts all too often decend into strong feelings, and many see real exploitation. You should know that people here feel strongly about raising the profile and rates VJ's recieve for their skills and work. This thread has been discussed in some depth seperately to the main threads by the mods, and I argued it should stay even we all disagree with the play for tickets threads that are endless it seems,

What I'd say is in future years make it clear that you guys don;t just use free labour, maybe approach the forums earlier and explore what as a community we can offer. You should always bear in mind how offers are viewed here, every promoter thats posts here seems think that VJ's should be grateful for a chance to play for nothing, and almost none offer the chance for paid work. Thats becoming an ever increasing issue

The fact some people are being paid is a more acceptable to me, but you know as well as me how all the festivals are using tickets as payment these days, its really killing off major opportunities to help this scene grow.

It would be nice to see some VJs get the opporunity for pay without having to be attached to a DJ or band to get it.

Its easy to see the frustration, seemed like a complete lack of budgeting considering especially as this is a few years into bloc and comments like "get your work seen by thousands" is like waving a red flag at a bull in any creative circle.

Call for VJ's who will plug in and play at one of Europe's best underground dance festivals. I can only offer you a ticket +1 so please don't reply if you expect payment or expenses.

This is a great opportunity to play on great rigs, with top artists, get your work seen by thousands, meet great people and have lot's of fun. Please no nego comments. I know the score and wish I had the budget to pay properly for great talent. Hopefully the experience will be enough for you.

SteveG

18th January 2011, 04:13 PM

I appreciate anyone coming on to explain or justify their stance or the why's and where for's.

Quote
"Bloc doesn't make a lot of money. Sometimes, it loses money. What are VJ's opinions on sharing the loss if an event loses money?"

You have decided to run an event. You have decided you want video and artists, Dj's etc etc etc (services) It is your risk and your risk alone. Should you wish any service you should be paying for it particularly if you want quality goods. Should you not be prepared to take that risk don't run the event.

You admit to making profit however, therefore you should not be asking people to work free, the fact that they are supporting slots or toilet attendants makes no odds.

Unfortunately the smaller events and younger promoters look up to the example set by events and promoters such as your own....well look BLoc don't pay why don't we offer the same....and believe me it is happening.

So, Bloc maybe fine with the chosen VJ's coming along with acts but your are assisting killing decent VJ'ing around the country and in smaller events and clubs.

Everyone employed by you should be paid according to the job they are being asked to do until the point you are non profitable. Then by all means ask for help.

Scratchpole

18th January 2011, 04:15 PM

Thanks for taking the time to explain everything from your perspective George/Alex.

When I first saw this thread appear I nearly didn't post anything. I do care about quality events and Blocs input to the scene hence making sure your team were aware of the discussion.

There is room for improvement on all sides of this community.

"Looking at this in detail, we are looking for a total of seven hours (across the whole weekend) to be filled."

It's a real shame you cannot find the extra budget to cover 7 hours of VJing. It has taken up a lot of peoples time and energy to get to the truth.

cycloptic

18th January 2011, 04:56 PM

Well this does change things quite significantly, acting as a "filler vj" as one of a few people doing a couple of hours is a very low responsibility position and if it truly is "plug and play" then to be honest, it could purely be a pleasure considering the quality of music that's on offer to work with... (although i would still consider expenses a deal breaker, because yes, covering my own expenses IS sharing an event's loss).

The impression put forward was:
"bloc doesn't care about video as long as it's there, btw it's not my fault. There's no budget so if you think that you're worth more than £0: hard cheese, you won't be working at bloc without feeling like a failure/traitor."

The fact that the majority of screen real estate will be used by professionals and NOT chancers effectively worth £0 (and in some cases bringing the value lower than a blank screen) or begrudging talented individuals with teeth marks on their tongue and lip... is not only comforting but an actual DRAW as far as I'm concerned.

On the other hand I have seen some people (i won't name them in case it taints them in some way but they have posted in this thread) who have proven their love for Bloc over the years and produce visuals of consistent quality and much more importantly performance ability. These people should have been earmarked for higher responsibilty and recompense rather than the continued opportunity of voluntary exploitation.
They're better than that.

KidKDN

18th January 2011, 05:10 PM

Well now that all of that is settled ? Is bloc still looking for vjs ? I got an email from VO about them not looking for vjs? Who can interested vj contact about filling in those 7 hours ?

fata alex

18th January 2011, 05:28 PM

The impression put forward was:
"bloc doesn't care about video as long as it's there, btw it's not my fault. There's no budget so if you think that you're worth more than £0: hard cheese, you won't be working at bloc without feeling like a failure/traitor."

Now come on E-man, Bloc have been mature enough to come and put forward their side of the story, don't put words in either their or eaglebot/VO's mouths.

That is not what the original post said, although it may be what many on here read into it.
for my part I always assumed the unpaid positions would be zero-responsibility plug n play fun sets, but we each make our own assumptions, but its not fair to put words in peoples mouths.

Those of us who emailed an enquiry now know that the original working relationship that lead to the original post in this thread has changed. I don't want to say any more in public (perhaps i've already over stepped the mark in various places, i don't know- there are real people involved) but i think it's a shame if this bickering (im referring specifically to the bickering, obviously the point of the debate is to encourage positive change, that hasn't happened, but at least clarification has) has damaged any reputations or relationships.
remember kids careless talk costs lives

This is my last post in any of these pay related debates, im thoroughly fed up of it all

Rovastar

18th January 2011, 05:59 PM

First off Bloc thanks for the reply.

I must admit I am very confused by the whole situation here now.

1) I don't know who is looking after the visuals for this festival.

Eaglebots initial post in this thread implied that he was in charge of visuals here at the festival as a visual co-ordinator / programmer role for this festival.

I work for Bloc and have the job of booking wicked VJ's for love, no money.

Now it seems that you are in that role instead/as well.

I don't know which it is.

2) Are other VJs being paid or not?

Lets look at these 2 quotes.

The only VJ's getting paid are the ones who come with the Artists. And, I'm assuming the artists will pay them. Not my business really.
I work for Bloc and have the job of booking wicked VJ's for love, no money.

That implies to me that there is no VJ/visual artist budget at all. In fact I don't know of any other way of reading this.

all of the rest of the stage time is being taken up by VJs either directly hired by us (stand by for an announcement on this in mid-feb)

Now that is implied that there *are* VJs being hired.

I know more and more artists have a visual element and that is up to them but I also know that not all of them do. I expect that there would be more than 7 hours worth with visuals. I would expect VJs to be hired for an event like this.

Again I am not sure what to believe. If you do have a budget I am completely lost why a representative of Bloc would categorically say there is not.

As you admit and from comments here and from others privately you have used VJs for a free ticket. Now there is a past reputation for this and when this thread appeared it naturally seemed like this continued. Hence the exploitation comments.

This doesn't give Bloc a good name and that might be seen as unfair but that is the reality here.

But I think Joe summed it up with:
It's a real shame you cannot find the extra budget to cover 7 hours of VJing. It has taken up a lot of peoples time and energy to get to the truth.

===================

For VJForums we need to in general decide what we do about free offers for more established gigs.

As evomedia said there is discussion about this now between the mods.

Some will see it as lets let anyone VJ as someone wants to be given the chance for a big break and VJForums should be used to spread the visuals in all it forms.

Others see it is exploitation by the promoters or even other VJs that want to increase their profit margins and why should VJForums be used to help facilitate this. If they can get no-one then they might put there hands in the pockets.

I am not sure what common ground will be reached.

But if I ever hear one more - you should be grateful for doing free visuals in front of x amount of people type threads (Oh you have given me a ticket to get in, thanks I thought I would have to break in to do the visuals for you for nothing), I'll start IP banning...

VJForums has got a great collection of really good professional VJs who frankly don't need more just exposure and to play in front of 100 people.

=================

Oh one more thing.
WinstonSalem (http://vjforums.com/member.php?u=29353) you are a total asshat.

cycloptic

18th January 2011, 06:02 PM

The impression put forward was:

I'm neither saying nor giving the impression that this was either the actual original post OR currently the case.

Bloc's post has nullified the majority of this thread, the fact that i have some working experience with people involved shouldn't stop me from highlighting the now obvious flaws of the original post for fear of mine or anyone else's reputation. Quite the opposite.

In fact I'm pointing out that a lot of this hand wringing and frustration (particularly mine) would have been unnecessary with a more considered approach. And I make no apology for doing so as a lot of people have come forward to add their thoughts to a debate that has now fundamentally changed colour.

Scratchpole

18th January 2011, 06:13 PM

Asshat :roll: Rovastar :cheers:

deepvisual

18th January 2011, 06:19 PM

dont knock winston, he gave me a perfect excuse to post some north korean chicks goose stepping

http://www.time.com/time/potw/20080911/potw_07.jpg

fata alex

18th January 2011, 07:55 PM

I'm neither saying nor giving the impression that this was either the actual original post OR currently the case.

Bloc's post has nullified the majority of this thread, the fact that i have some working experience with people involved shouldn't stop me from highlighting the now obvious flaws of the original post for fear of mine or anyone else's reputation. Quite the opposite.

In fact I'm pointing out that a lot of this hand wringing and frustration (particularly mine) would have been unnecessary with a more considered approach. And I make no apology for doing so as a lot of people have come forward to add their thoughts to a debate that has now fundamentally changed colour.

oh, i know i should have just kept my mouth shut, but to me "the impression put forward" is closer in meaning to "what was said" than "my impresion of what was said" - one is a generalisation, one is a personal interpretation.
But whatever, its just semantics, and this is a vj board, not a language board, this really will be my last post in this thread.
And no offence meant to you personally dude, i know you have your head well screwed on, im just being a pedantic dick. ;)

More importantly, ive never seen the appeal of women in uniform until noww - ooh la la!
dont knock winston, he gave me a perfect excuse to post some north korean chicks goose stepping

http://www.time.com/time/potw/20080911/potw_07.jpg

psychomonkey

18th January 2011, 09:42 PM

Well now that all of that is settled ? Is bloc still looking for vjs ? I got an email from VO about them not looking for vjs? Who can interested vj contact about filling in those 7 hours ?

Hi all i to have been reading this over the past couple of days, and it now appears that VO has been removed as the curratetor for the VJ side of Bloc, as we had planned to go this year, i to was considering just a plug and play slot, now it seems that the option is gone...:(

Like KidKDN i to am now wonder how to get in touch with someone about those filling slots??

bloc. dont shoot.

18th January 2011, 10:01 PM

Seriously reluctant to get drawn into this debate any further, or indeed at all... but just posting this to offer some clarification of our position for 'Rovastar' as requested.

VJs at Bloc are either provided by people we have hired, or by the showcases hosting the stage, or by the artists or sometimes even the people providing the equipment. It really depends. We will be making an announcement in mid February on all of the A/V treats we have lined up for 2011 in case you're interested.

Because our normal visuals coordinator is going on his honeymoon (congratulations!), eaglebot was appointed to take over for 2011. Unfortunately, perhaps due to inexperience of the role, I fear that he rather miscommunicated our position by directly advertising for unpaid workers. This implied that we would expect everyone and anyone to work for free as a matter of course.

Of course, (as with DJs, musicians, designers, writers, painters and all creatives) it depends on the individual artist how much they might expect to be offered by an arts event or festival - and whether this offer is in money, tickets, booze, tshirts, cake or whatever the event damn well feels that it can afford. No one has to accept it.

Eagle sadly tendered his resignation shortly after this thread erupted in such an ugly manner - before he even got a chance at doing the job :( This is a shame because he's a real talent and good guy who had the best intentions for the role i'm sure.

So, we took a look at how much of the event was already covered by in-house video (mainly headliners but not always), video artists we have already hired, residents from showcases, and our own crew, and it turned out we were only looking to cover about 7 hours. So the whole debate was pretty much pointless.

We offer these fill in slots for free tickets for just the same reason that we don't always pay 'resident' DJs - we're well enough over budget as it is and there are plenty of guys willing to pitch in and 'plug and play' for an hour or two in exchange for free tickets and accommodation.

We hope some of you will agree that this not such an unusual or indeed unreasonable policy for an independent music festival to have. Perhaps it would be sensible if we disabused ourselves of the notion that alternative electronic music is some kind of breadbasket - get real guys!

Thanks and we do hope some of you can make it along in March to enjoy the party. It's supposed to be fun after all :)

SteveG

18th January 2011, 10:24 PM

It's a shame you've found fit to accept Eaglebots resignation or take the decision to sack him should that be the case. A simple error that I feel warranted no more than a slap on the wrist from you guys and him to perhaps make an apology here for getting it wrong and starting this lot off.

I'm afraid Bloc I've had it up to my eyes with VJ's being treated the way they are currently by a large percentage of promoters, many of whom are DJ's and should fully understand what it's like, and large profitable events. Particularly today.

Some focus on this word Budget too often, I'm sorry you've gone over yours. No mention of your projected profit margins though. And I wouldn't expect that, however, you going slightly over budget has slightly lowered your profit. There is also the fact that should attendance figures be down or your projected profit then the free performing VJ will also help by spending £XX's during your event...win and win.

No need to reply as you didn't to my earlier post, however, I'll say again just in case you missed it that whilst you are out to make profit and by self admission you are profitable then you should not be asking anyone to perform or work free.

Good luck with the event.

fata alex

18th January 2011, 11:08 PM

It's a shame you've found fit to accept Eaglebots resignation or take the decision to sack him should that be the case. A simple error that I feel warranted no more than a slap on the wrist from you guys and him to perhaps make an apology here for getting it wrong and starting this lot off.

There is also the fact that should attendance figures be down or your projected profit then the free performing VJ will also help by spending £XX's during your event...win and win.

No need to reply as you didn't to my earlier post, however, I'll say again just in case you missed it that whilst you are out to make profit and by self admission you are profitable then you should not be asking anyone to perform or work free.

Good luck with the event.

What £XXs will the vj spend at the festival that will go to Bloc?? They don't keep the bar takings you know.
And you should know that they don't know if they'll be profitable until after the event, when they finally know how many tickets they sold. The budget is set at a point whereby they should hopefully at least break even, and if they sell out, or nearly do, then the profit is what the organisers have to live on for the next year. This is pretty standard stuff Steve, i don't know why you have so much difficulty understanding it.

sleepytom

18th January 2011, 11:16 PM

It's a shame you've found fit to accept Eaglebots resignation or take the decision to sack him should that be the case. A simple error that I feel warranted no more than a slap on the wrist from you guys and him to perhaps make an apology here for getting it wrong and starting this lot off.

Why insinuate that Bloc have sacked him? Or indeed that a "slap on the wrist" would be appropriate? The original post simply lacked enough detail for the offer of VJ slots to be considered in a fair light.

If I were Egalebots then I'd be extremely upset about how this has all turned out and I fully understand if he decided that he'd rather take a step back from the role, given the reception his good intentioned offer was given.

As to working for free at profitable events then whats the problem? If you don't want to do it then fine nobody is forcing you to. I woud much rather know the event was going to provide me with exactly what they said i would get, than to be promised payment and then receive nothing.

Bloc are being fair, they have explained their situation. They pay the people they say they are going to pay and they offer a few extra sets to people keen to be involved in the event. This is standard across the industry and it's how many of use got into working on events in the first place. Its not just VJs but production staff, stewards, performers, musicians and DJs who all start out doing some gigs for free to meet people and to learn the ropes. Without these opportunities the entire music scene would stagnate into a static hell as no new young people would be coming in with fresh ideas and enthusiasm.

SteveG

18th January 2011, 11:20 PM

Alex, please I wouldn't write shite. I've been to business school and courses on starting business, I'm a highly experienced man manager and more versatile than you can ever dream or imagine. I've allready had one very successful career and at 40 odd doesn't have to work. I am pissed off with some on this forum taking it, assuming, that I dont know what the fuck I'm talking about and just decide to write crap on a public forum.

And before my successful career I worked in the Hotel trade, operating bars, food...and guess what....BUDGETS.

An initial budget has to be worked out before you can do anything. Lets run a fesival...ok....how much will we spend.....xxxxx ok where shall we have it xxxx how much does that venue cost then.Eh!....and so on

The only thing that seems to be standard is that a huge amount of VJ's don't seem to understand how to be successful in business. Now please lets not argue.

SteveG

18th January 2011, 11:29 PM

Tom, this is my final comment on the matter. I have wished Bloc well for their event.

What you are saying is that it is acceptable that profitable events can ask for free VJ's. I'm sorry I find it wrong and you are sending out the wrong message to others.

sleepytom

18th January 2011, 11:36 PM

No what i'm saying is that without offering people at the bottom of the industry the opportunities to gain experience in an environment where they can meet and hang out with people at the top of the industry then we will see no new raising talent.

This is not the same as a club night wanting you to VJ for 9 hours without pay. Festivals essentially provide work experience opportunities where someone without much experience gets to see how a big setup works and the chance to "have a go" on all the big toys. If you've only done a couple of small gigs and practiced in your bedroom then this could be a fantastic opportunity to learn a hell of a lot.

SteveG

18th January 2011, 11:46 PM

My first ever VJ gig was a large festival. I was paid £300.00. I'm not denying the opportunity, however, the newest boy in the office makes the tea...he is still paid by the company. The fact that they are giving the opportunity would mean so much more if they were to pay the individuals particularly as they can afford to. What is happening here is on a par with what the Govt is doing to the country, the NHS... dismantling everything that our forefathers fought for. The right to work, fair pay.

Music has been devalued as has visuals but if this sort of thing is allowed to continue the visuals, the art as some call it, the scene has not got a hope in hell.

That's definitely my last on the subject. Allowing this is encouraging future posts requesting free VJ's.

cycloptic

19th January 2011, 12:23 AM

steve the person that paid you 3 ton for your first show was either a genius or an idiot.
we shouldn't expect either of those traits from people.

SteveG

19th January 2011, 12:33 AM

I covered one of the main marquees for the day. The festival ran at a loss but the promoters knew it would. Everyone was paid. To this day he remains one of the most successful club promoters the country has seen. He is all but retired now.

Plus I'm a good VJ and had the stars of the show crowding round me watching in amazement as I scratched around some visuals on the then brand new DVJ The song under pressure came to mind :D

So doing a festival as a new boy isn't rocket science but very satisfying if your paid for the hard work.

Escapation

19th January 2011, 01:04 AM

I've read this whole thread (took some time), and find this a very interesting debate.

Not taking a stand at the moment, but just wanted to congratulate Bloc for taking the time to comment in this (very) heated debate. To me it cleared up a lot and I think this is a good practice for any promoter!

Good luck with the event, would be there as well had it not been that its a bit expensive for me to travel all the way to Minehead and pay for a ticket.
Maybe a paying gig somewhere around Bristol would solve that (no pun intended...well maybe a little;-)

PS: Guys, please make sure you don't make it too personal and please respect each others opinions and arguments...

asterix

19th January 2011, 02:00 AM

Thanks for clearing things up Bloc party!
Respect.

Pesh

19th January 2011, 05:32 AM

PCProject

19th January 2011, 07:16 AM

I find it very refreshing that Bloc have taken the time to post their point of view in a thread that if I were a promoter I would have been very tempted to ignore due to some of the comments and the sniping of board members against each other.
Is now a good time to let Bloc have their thread to get two or three VJs who are happy to take the offered opportunity at the offered return? I think so.

Scratchpole

19th January 2011, 11:19 AM

Indeed they would probably be able to get good jobs in damage limitation public relations if they so chose.

I still think travel expenses and PD should be provided.
It's a long and expensive journey for anyone not based in the region and I think they do put on coaches from London, what are a few more meal tickets going to set them back?

sleepytom

19th January 2011, 11:39 AM

i think they should pay me a fee of £500 to sit at home and listen to radio 4.

They probably don't think the same way.

Obviously we would all like the visuals budget to be bigger, as we are the ones who stand to benefit from such an increase.

Bloc are running their event the way they feel is right, in a way which enables them to meet the financial commitments that they have taken on. You don't have to work for them if you don't want to.

WinstonSalem

20th January 2011, 03:28 AM

Rovastar: There is absolutely no need to call me an Arsehat, whatever that means, am I right in thinking you are the moderator? Isn't it your job by definition to keep the peace. Jeez..

I'm sorry if I upset a few people here if I came across as rude and nasty, I only wanted to fit in.

Anyway, I have a question, below this thread there is a thread advertising for a VJ at a Tron release party. There is only one reply. Why isn't anybody lampooning Disney!?! Tron had a budget of $170 million, and has grossed over $300million. Fucking Mickey Mouse. Cunt.

Also, Steve G, I've had an idea, why, if you are such an expert on business, and consider festivals such a cash cow, why don't you put one on. Tell you what, you could pay all the VJs and make the DJs play for free. They probably would as well. Even better, it could be the launch event for your Stalinist VJ union (you look a bit like Stalin with that 'tache), whilst also being a test flight for your promoters handbook. I read those posts. They're very sweet.

asterix

20th January 2011, 04:35 AM

No 'business' is easy to setup Winston. But when it operates as a 'business' it should adhere to the basic principles of business. ie - you pay for stock / services / employees / infrastructure. You create a product and a system for managing the business model. You then onsell to your customers for a profit. Festivals are businesses and have to run that way, regardless of whether you're doing it just because you're passionate or whatever

evomedia

20th January 2011, 12:32 PM

I still have no idea why you joined here WinstonSalem, seems like all you want to do is insult other members, I'd say that maybe try contributing something constructive rather than dig at other members will make you more friends than making snide comments at other peoples ideas?

Your not really helping yourself if you join a forum, then do nothing other than make snide comments at the few actual people in this industry who manage against all the odds to make a living from Visuals. Thats whats bugging me and this aint a dig, but I have noticed you haven't said a single thing that's related to visuals, and haven't said a single posititive thing either about VJ's, VJing or the industry, So I'd like to know do you even VJ? and if so what experience have you had?

From simply reading your posts I don't get the impression that VJing is a major part of your life, in fact I've never seen a member here that seems so anti VJing, That really makes me worry that your so critical of others ideas to help an industry that obviously needs to mature, if you did work in VJing surely you would already know how hard a marketplace it is to find a decent income. So whats the issue here mate?

I'm just interested to know why your so critical? is VJing important to you? as an observer your not coming across as someone passionate about VJing.

I feel I should quote you your own mantra

posted By WinstonSalem Publicly bad mouthing another mans business (and you have to remember, this is someones livelihood), doesn't look good for anyone, especially the badmouther and his vehicle (this forum). Its childish.

So stop calling people insignificant, worthless or Stalin.... live by your own statements at least

As it is, its becoming a struggle to find a post of yours that isn't badmouthing other members and no posts at all that even have one fact, question, idea, query, experience or thought on VJing itself. I'd just like to see you add something to our industry not just knock every person who's trying to move things forward

Rovastar

20th January 2011, 12:43 PM

Bloc,

Thanks for more clarification. I did feel Eaglebots posts weren't thought out as well as they could have been.

I do wish you and Eaglebot well with your festival.

WinstonSalem

Yes you are correct I am failing in my duties for running this forum. At the moment the biggest failure has been feeding and not banning blatant trolls and troublemakers here.

The Tron advert was for a small-ish night with a tron theme. Not from what I understand a disney launch party - the title was a little misleading.
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=161005520609675

If you continue to post overtly argumentative posts here then you will not posting here much longer.

deepvisual

20th January 2011, 12:51 PM

hey, leave my buddy winston alone.
or I'll never get to post pics of north korean chicks.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3956759061_5732514dc5.jpg

skulpture

20th January 2011, 09:30 PM

WinstonSalem

20th January 2011, 10:13 PM

and then not read posts properly

I do read posts properly.

For example
slag people off because you don't like there opinions
You meant their there instead of there.

May I ask, in what way is this forum starting to fail?

SteveG

20th January 2011, 10:23 PM

Too many people coming onto this forum like yourself Winston, support bad policies for VJ's and VJ'ing, have contributed absolutely nothing to this community and from what I've seen so far nothing to VJ'ing, seem to have an ego the same size as your arse and a mouth the size of your ego. Show us something positive, some of your work perhaps....until then I think most people are just having a good old laugh at you :D Thanks for the Stalin remark and I have never claimed to be brilliant in business myself....now it's past your bed time....quick before Mum catches you on the computer too late :D

skulpture

20th January 2011, 10:51 PM

Yeah fine I'm dyslexic, spelt one word wrong and I can promise you I have spelt many many more words wrong in my 950+ posts! And?

It's just failing because less and less people are posting these days (including me admittedly) there are only a few threads i bother going on such as the inspiration thread, buy and sell and software. It seems to me people just want to argue, swear and generally put people down through sarcasm and similar... that is all.

I'm sure a forum is a place to discuss and help other out, on all the other forums I go on (and one of which I moderate) it's just not like this. Steve and many others have so much to offer but its not worth their time sometimes due to threads like this. Steve has actually been a guest visitor at my university and inspiring hundreds of students and answering all their questions; he is very business minded and an all round nice chap - he has gone out of his way to help me and others on this forum and its just such a shame that everyone can't just respond nicely.

1) It's not good for the forum/community
2) This thread looks horrible for Bloc (I bet they wish they never posted!)
3) It's demoralising for those posting (Steve has said numerous time to Bloc that he wishes them the best of look)
4) Threads like this are not good for 'VJ's' full stop - if anyone stumbled across this thread who was not a VJ can you image what they will be thinking?

I haven't got an issue with anyone on this thread or VJF. My last post was not aimed at you Winston, I quoted you and yes the swearing annoyed me but as I said in my post...

"This is why this forum is starting to fail." <-- i.e. the forum collectively, not just this thread its happening on many threads unfortunately.

Bloc - I have many friends going to your event and I am 50/50 if I can make it. It looks a great event and the line up is SICK!!! :)

skulpture

20th January 2011, 10:55 PM

SteveG

20th January 2011, 10:58 PM

Well, when you put it like that Graham....I'm guilty:o Winston I apologise and hope that you can do likewise.

Let's start again and as I say. Lets see something positive in a post;)

Thanks for the compliments Graham.

mowgli

24th January 2011, 01:49 PM

Winston, seriously, I have no problem with reading a variety of opinions on any given subject whether I'm for or against them but you really have issues which you could do with addressing. Throughout the thread you've come up with off-topic, childish and personal remarks which belong in the school playground. Yes, some people have moustaches, some are 35 and some are dyslexic. Your point is?

asterix

25th January 2011, 10:10 AM

This is why this forum is starting to fail... Lets swear lots, have a go at people because you can hide behind a keyboard acting hard, slag people off because you don't like there opinions and then not read posts properly... pathetic. This is getting like facebook :rolleyes:

Lol. You must have forgotten the flame pit we used to have. Harsh but addictive at the time.

deanbob

27th January 2011, 12:57 PM

Wow entertaining thread to read that.

My $2.

Some promotors can be cheeky and will try take the p**s if you let them, too many times you hear I can't afford to pay you this time but maybe next time or my personal hate 'could you make me a DVD to play at other events', 'yeah alright mate, I'll put the last 5 years worth of work on a DVD for you to play at other events so you don't have to book us anymore...' [currently we're working on the worst VJ video ever with the usual over used pap, kaleidoscopes and russian dancers and archive footage etc which we will post to people that take the p**s with the title 'do we look like t**ts mate?' ;]

But others are spot on and look after you, pay you a good price and make sure you're happy with the set up etc. These are the guys you want to work with and can be hard to find lol.

Sure people that work for free are probably devaluing VJ'ing as a whole but they are also probably using found content that every other 'will work for free' VJ is probably VJ'ing. So the promotor isn't getting anything that can't be seen at other events and tbh a free ticket is all it could be worth? [Note I'm saying probably and could, I'm sure there are exceptions ;]

I couldn't imagine people who make their own content working for free, especially when you can be working for weeks/ months getting that 3d model, flash animation, illustration perfect; unless the gig is for a good friend or charity etc.

If you don't want to work for free, beer, tickets etc just ignore this part of the forum and go straight to the paid work section, isn't that the original point of creating the separate forums in the first place?

skulpture

27th January 2011, 04:53 PM

Looking back and reflecting on this post... I actually think this topic needed to happen. It was building up and many posts hinted and questioned this notion of working for free/low pay and hi-income work.

I actually think its all subjective. Obvious really - some can afford to work for free, some can't. Some will get fame, some won't. Some will be scared of promoters and get bossed about, other won't. Some will work underground clubs/events, other won't. Some will only work corporate events, other won't. The list goes on...

There are pro's and con's to both... simples :)

vjcj

30th January 2011, 11:35 PM

Hello all,

Just found this post as I was looking for a part time job assisting a VJ in LA while I work on songwriting.

Lemme first say that I have nothing but respect for all the VJs here and have been inspired by a lot of the work I've seen along with many lessons and tips offered.

As a musician, I too used to feel cheated on when MP3s came out and illegal downloading became rampant. But you know what, we're in a new economy now and new models have to develop. Instead of fighting the new system, embrace it and run with it. If anybody needs the money here, it's someone like me as I'm broke! But to all the VJ's hating on Bloc, can you honestly say you've never downloaded an illegal mp3, movie or book? (yes, porn counts too) So unless you have never, ever downloaded something illegally, you are in no position to criticize bloc, which coincidently I've never heard of as I'm here in CA, as they're running a business. Many of you say you're in business, well then, the easiest way to help vjs earn money is to develop a better business model. Set up a new festival company that does pay ALL VJs fairly and puts on a a fooking good show. So good that ppl pay extra money to go to that event instead of a show like bloc. It will only be at that point that companies like bloc decide to pay everybody.

I highly recommend reading portions of the book, Wikinomics. Gives great example of using electronic distribution to get the word out about your art. What was the name of that guy, DJ Danger Mouse or dan who did the mashup of the beatles and jayz? Jayz was exposed to beatles fans and vice versa, and oh, btw, DJ Danger went on to produce one of damon albarns albums and some other work despite the fact he didnt get paid from the hours of work of mashing up the grey album.

Sorry for going off on a rant but bloc offered a deal and I tend to agree with the guys saying take it or leave it. It's not that I like vj's getting ripped off but as a musician, I've already gotten used to it and instead of bitching about it, better to find a positive, constructive way to gain something from potential opportunities.

all for now

{VJPortal}

31st January 2011, 08:36 PM

As everyone knows, there is no technical standard for VJ equipment infrastructure (i.e. nothing close in analogy to the Technics SL1200 turntable).

For these kind of "we will pay you by letting you and a friend enter the venue" shows, who is providing the actual VJ equipment? Are these promoters really expecting the VJ to play *and* provide his or her performance gear for free???

sleepytom

31st January 2011, 08:46 PM

Frolic AV are providing the visuals infrastructure for Bloc.

Bloc are not asking people to provide any equipment beyond their personal playback systems, they are not needing or wanting to borrow any equipment from VJs.

And it's bollocks that there is no standard VJ gear. I've booked or provided technical infrastructure for literally hundreds of VJs and their is surprisingly little variation in what they need to do their visuals. Basically an Edirol V8 some preview monitors and a scanconverter or 2 will cover almost every VJ in the world.

paranoidkarma

2nd February 2011, 12:58 PM

Actually i think it's better to travel and work free in a event like Mapping 2011 or others for vjs and visual artists than this one, we all know that 99,9% of the promoters worship djs and don't care about us. If you want to listen Aphex Twin for free, then this is your event.

devonmiles

2nd February 2011, 02:10 PM

actually most of the VJ festivals like Mapping or VisionR Paris pay for travel and accomodation. some of them offer a small fee on top of that if you perform a guest slot at one of the commercial club nights.
the thing is: who is asking for what.
if it were Antivj asking for an intern for their stunning installation at Bloc I would say: yes, of course for free, no problem.
if bloc asks to fill some random slots with visuals for minor DJs at one or the other side stages I would say: nope, nada, njet.

an intership at Antivj will boost your CV a lot more and will actually bring in well paid jobs, in contrary to playing at any festival in the world , except Kazantip ;)

{VJPortal}

3rd February 2011, 05:25 PM

sleepytom,

When I say "no VJ equipment standards", I'm talking about the personal playback systems primarily. It's bollocks to suggest there are standards in that domain.

If the promoter provided the V8 or V4 + master feed cable + preview monitors (and this doesn't always happen), my personal playback infrastructure I would bring on-site would still cost $2500 U.S. No promoter is getting access to that for "entry into the venue + a friend". There's a rental cost attached to that, sir.

sleepytom

3rd February 2011, 06:05 PM

You choose to use expensive hardware that you already own. Why should the promoter pay extra for your chosen hardware when your only doing a fill-in / freebie slot?

When your the headline act you can write stuff on your rider and the promoter will have to provide it, when your just starting out, and playing an opening / warm up slot you can't make these kind of demands.

If you decide your above playing these kind of gigs then fine. I'm above working in McDonnalds but i don't get angry evrytime I see them advertising a job!

Rather than being hung up about using this gear or that gear you should maybe try and tailor what you supply to the budget... I can provide any level of visuals, from turning up with just my iphone, all the way up to broadcast spec HD camera mixing and multiscreen media servers. Needless to say I don't send the HD mixer out on low budget jobs, but i also don't get all pissy with the promoter who can only afford a composite setup.

sleepytom

3rd February 2011, 06:16 PM

or put another way, Do bands who own really expensive guitars get paid more than bands who have cheaper instruments? (assuming they are equally famous)

{VJPortal}

3rd February 2011, 07:17 PM

Bands with really expensive guitars are usually better bands because the quality of their equipment rewards their performance capability. Otherwise, they're just ripping themselves off. :)

You choose to use expensive hardware that you already own. Why should the promoter pay extra for your chosen hardware when your only doing a fill-in / freebie slot?

When your the headline act you can write stuff on your rider and the promoter will have to provide it, when your just starting out, and playing an opening / warm up slot you can't make these kind of demands.

Even the Resolume VJ is running an expensive laptop, so every VJ is bringing $2000+ worth of gear to the party. As far as I can tell, these "fill-in / newbie" gigs are exploitive if they don't include some money to rent the VJ's gear.

I say BS. We know that a VJ's bill includes the following elements:

1) Content creation
2) Content performance
3) Gear provision

Newbies and upstarts can be expected to make significant compromises around #1 and #2. However, nobody should be expected to provide equipment for free when patrons are getting charged to enter the premises.

fata alex

3rd February 2011, 07:31 PM

But performance equipment is almost never chargeable, no bands charge for their guitars! They might require a certain level of amp to be supplied at the promoters cost, but this is backline, equivalent to the projectors in vj terms - which are being supplied by bloc.

unjulation

3rd February 2011, 07:50 PM

Even the Resolume VJ is running an expensive laptop

rubbish i can run resolume 2.41 perfectly with a 5yr old shuttle that costs £100 inc the monitor

{VJPortal}

3rd February 2011, 09:48 PM

When bands charge to play a show, they are charging for the same 3 things. Typically, this all gets rolled into one simple fee: "I'll do the gig on Saturday night for 200 euro".

Getting price of admission for two tickets to rent out $2000+ worth of gear to meet the needs of a pay-for-entry event is called "exploitation" where I come from. At the very least, the VJ who does a show under these terms should be scraping the most low-end gear in their kit. Doing this kind of show for "getting a name out there" is just asking to be ripped off again the next time, but at less margin. :)

BTW - Resolume has a cost of licensing. So that crappy old shuttle and monitor + software + some kind of MIDI controller is likely worth 300+ GBP.

unjulation

3rd February 2011, 10:25 PM

fair enough if you are taking the cost of the program i thought you were talking about the kit actuall hardware -

personally i don't need a midi controller so that's out of the equation

but even if we take those numbers its still no ware near the costs that you were talking about

ok to brake it down to its basics you need -

a computer that runs the vj soft well

visual loops

a ability to mix those loops in a visualy interesting manner

out of that you only need to spend money on the first aspect the rest is free, now im not saying its not nice to have a variaty of toys to play with, mixing desk etc but you dont actualy need them to do the job in hand

SteveG

4th February 2011, 12:01 AM

God knows why I'm commenting again...I know I'm smashing my head against a brick wall on the payment for performance thing but what the £uck :)

To the league who support working on the festivals free, great enjoy it. The main reason some get upset is because they are actually trying to sell the service as a business or part of a business.

Again to the league who say yes to and agree to performing free....now I'm not looking for another bun fight or even replies here as I'm off to bed...just a few points to think about I think which don't seem to get mentioned too often in these debates.

The festival is being run as a business do they allow people in for free?

Who has paid for your travel, food and drink.....or do you donate that free to?

Who is paying the insurance on your equipment or do you have your fingures crossed? (perhaps someone will come along one day and trip over one of your cables or walk off with your laptop)

Do you have proof that you are on the festival Insurance cover?

Is the festival paying your national Insurance?

Is the festival contributing towards your pension fund?

Do the organisers return to you often and offer paid work?

Are they paying for your preparation time and equipment care hours?

Will they pay for equipment replacement if lost stolen or damaged?

Honestly guys, you may be lucky and can laugh. Unfortunately you may just be the unlucky one.

As well as the right to put in for paid work offered here, those who object to constantly being offered a raw deal have the right to point out the errors in the morals. Did they even have the decency to book you early enough to have you included in any promotional material...did they ask. At the very least they can include you in their electronic updates and promo...it would cost them nothing.

unjulation

4th February 2011, 12:29 AM

i understand all those things as all my income that i earn comes from vj or vj related work but i understand that companeys will try and get as much for nothing - thats capitalism for you - its not something i think is a good thing but it aint going to go away so im not going to waste my energy moaning about - im just not going take the job

if your good enough at what you do you will get jobs that you will get paid for -

and

there will always be peeps who are going to put these offers out there -

those facts are not going to change

SteveG

4th February 2011, 12:35 AM

Yes, I totally understand your view point too Unj. However, they are all circumstances which can be changed or effected here on this forum to a large degree when it is with regards to VJ'ing. For the same reason as joe is going on about getting on the streets and marching for change. Do nothing and nothing will change.

Scratchpole

4th February 2011, 04:38 AM

Ah comrade Sta...Sta...Steve I see you are following party protocol. (Imagine my 1970's comedy accent)
Unj, come on with attitudes like that we would still have workhouses for the poor and destitute. (Coming soon to a Tory England....)

unjulation

4th February 2011, 08:23 PM

right after that word from our spam/sponsor.......(sorry this is aimed at the spamer that i have deleted above - if you carnt see it just presume its there or not as the case may be ;) )

come on with attitudes like that we would still have workhouses for the poor and destitute. (Coming soon to a Tory England....)

interesting when i first read this i felt my heckles rise and thought "how dare you say i don't doing anything to change the world"

then just said what an old cynic i am if i have that attitude

and then i thought about ware the attitude comes from in the first place based upon my experiences within the festi/party/club/vj world over the last 25yrs and i think.......

it comes from several distinct and personally important interconnected times and realizations that i have about how the world works (ruee these might not be relevant now to me psychologically speaking, but as we know might not be relevant now)

enough waffle - what i was thinking about was my belief when i was 18-25 when i truly believed that i/we - the so-called-alternative-scene - could change the world followed by a personal disillusionment which ran parallel to the realisation that it didn't matter what the law of the land was i/we could fundamentally do as i/we wished

so i suppose that i personally found my way past that psychological - shall we say negative? thought process - of disillusionment

following on from that i believe there are different ways of changing the world around and i personally know that other peeps are far better at getting out there and shouting at the "man" (read - the opposing force that you are pitting your self against) and what i do is just show that you can go out there and live your life in the way you want

(within all this "living your life as you want" there is the basic understanding that your not going round killing/maiming/hurting/being negative/ripping peeps off etc.)

I think ;)