Free VJs

[julez]

what is the general concensus on starting as a VJ for free?

I started by working (for free) with some other VJs who did it semi professionally...would this be classed as bottomfeeding?

some comments would be appreciated:confused:



thanks

[unjulation]

personaly i dont have any time for this "bottem feeder" atitude it just smaks of elitisum and/or fear to me, if you are gaining experiance contacts etc then go for it, what better way then to lern the trade then from people who are already doing it rarther then haveing to find out how to do the job by your self

[minimalniemand]

I think, if you start VJing its ok to work for free in small clubs where you know the owner or something, so that your name appears on the flyer.
But don't do that to often.
you should know, what your work is worth.

You have to drag your equipment into the club an sit there all night. You prepare clips at home and so on. - all for free?


Maybe if you are a winamp-"vj" you can work for free :D

[julez]

fair enough,

but how about a veteran who did it for free...i understand that not everyone can get paid straight away but if someone is good should they be charging? I've heard the phrase "creative expression" and "for love of the job" so many times it's not funny but it just seems like a pro who's not charging is undercutting the rest of the business

(im just asking questions, im not sure what the attitude is like away from my little corner of the world. So nobody get offended or anything)

[wellREDman]

its i think actually better for the community to be doing it for free than to be doing it for small money

if you do it for a pittance, it strengthens the idea that vjs are only worth ?50 a night or something, wheras if you do a freebie then you can get the experience , and/or the in with the promoter, but then when youre ensconced charge him a proper rate

plus you can make sure he knows youre giving him ?400 pounds worth of free work so it reenforces the value thing rather than undermining it

[mondo]

everyone's gotta start somewhere

there is no dishonour in free work - in fact by playing for free you get the experience to learn from others which is one primary objective re: knowing your market/what you like/dont like/having fun. etc

if you are good it'll show out to the poiint where you have the confidence and know-how when/how much to charge

but.....there will come a time when you will be used as a freejay and you will know it...and there will be times when you'll cane the cash for an easy vj set.

remember you are a performer not a visual automaton with some effects

start developing a good relationship with the promoter (or promote gigs yourself) and make sure they are aware what it takes to get all those lovely clips onto the screens.

good luck

[julez]

cheers mondo,

thanks for the advice, i'll definitely take that on board

:yep:

[holly]

I'd go against RED here and say if there was no talk of money but it's obviously a low budget (we're all splitting the door) kinda thing and they offer you cab fair at the end of the night (like $20) take the $20, say thanks, and talk about making the party bigger. Get some flyers and help promote. No one needs a diva who can't bring in a few friends or get people interested in your VJ. Use the party for your own promotion or as a platform for VJing. Then get another free VJ and trade off. You'll both enjoy the night much more when you can take long breaks. If you are bringing in people then the promoter is more likely to pay for your services. If you are just showing up to play and can't even hand out a flyer then you'd better be good because you are a burden to the party, like an open bar or a drink special. Decide if you are on the team or not. As a promoter, I'd rather hire a VJ who is bringing in heads than have a free-jay who is doing nothing for my numbers....

On the other hand, you are getting ripped off when:
1) it's a huge club with a $20 cover and it's packed....
2) you receive no publicity, no name on flyer or listings (why would "a friend" do this to you?)
3) the DJ is getting paid and you're not.
4) you are the first to arrive and the last to leave.

When it comes time to get paying gigs but you're not sure what to charge, call up a/v rental places and check the going cost per night of the gear you are carrying in, especially the beamer(s). Never charge less than that price. A promoter could use you to bring in extra gear he can't afford.

[wellREDman]

that doesnt really go against what iwas saying anyway :)

and i was just about to post an addendum which was that yeah free should never be really free no matter what it is, to a promoter chucking you ?20 for you cab fare/petrol doesnt mean the same as paying you,

Even charity gigs are happy to cover travel expences, (and hell your donating many hours work right )

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by Red
if you do it for a pittance, it strengthens the idea that vjs are only worth ?50 a night or something,



:nod:

and basically agree with everything that has been said so far. :)

I would also do free gigs for friends, my own nights, other VJ/visual startup events probably too, etc

Originally posted by minimalniemand
Maybe if you are a winamp-"vj" you can work for free :D

hehe now I COULD interupt that as fighting talk.;):):D

[julez]

So basically you guys are suggesting that if no-one is making a huge profit out of the night and as long as the vj is not running at a loss then there's no real problem

thanks for all the help:cheers:

[k8eepants]

well i gained all my hands on experience by working a 5000 capacity weekender for three times for free( a weeks work each time)......i couldnt have bought that training for quids, so....make of that what u want......( i did have a day job at the time!! i realise u gotta pay the bills!).....i've done a full london club rig for free on the understanding that the production manager would then have enough cash to buy his son a xmas present..( i think we even put that in a contract, they're not all fat cats rolling in cash.)..i've done cultural and community events for nothing, and i've done huge profile events for next to nothing cos it looks great on the client list.......i now have a successful career vj ing big and small events all over... i reckon, if you're starting out, being free means u can screw up without having a hernia worrying about it.....it means you're doing it, not sitting at home wishing u were doing it, gaining experience and helping the community and being a groovy person to boot. it gained me many mates and useful contacts....
i agree that free is better than cheap as u leave the club with all the brownie points and the promoter knows u did them a favour..........it can be very useful and as long as you're not too out of pocket, it's ok....look at it as if its training......i paid ?6000 for my psychology qualifications and nothing for my vj training.... guess which job keeps my daughter in school shoes?

[Rovastar]

(*sigh* ok a bit slack about bottomfeeding in another thread but I back now. )

"well i gained all my hands on experience by working a 5000 capacity weekender for three times for free( a weeks work each time)......"

Phew where do I start.

A 5,000 person venue that is a fair size. And they could not afford to pay anyone. That my friend is :bullshit:.

So you were doing it will any training or professional and probably passion for visuals. Thanks for 'helping' the scene.

Practice, trianing if you are talking about the performance part of VJing (as opposed to the rigging part, etc) then you can do that a home. On your own if needs be a copy of your favourite VJ soft or whatever and instead of a projector use a VCR and TV. Hiot the record button and practice, practice, practice. When you are good enough then goto the clubs.

Doing big gigs for free to 'boost' your name. Sets a brillant precident that does the promoteer then does an event half teh size what is his money for VJ. Well it is half what he paid for teh big event half of zero. What next you pay them to do an event. Ffs.

Helping yourself by hurting the scene. Brillant simply brillant. who say bottomfeeding is dead......

Sorry but I do not agree with your 'advice'.

[robotfunk]

The bottom line when considering doing a freebie or not should be :

What am I getting out of this? What is the promoter getting out of this?

If you need experience, exposure etc ... you may be better off asking a few VJs (WHO GET PAID!) to join em for free, rather than giving a promotor a freebie.

I do freebies only if

1) the event is uncommercial by nature, see AVIT/Contacteurope etc. Charity should only be done for a good cause.

AND

2) you are sympathetic towards the goal/intentions of the event (see 1)

AND

3) You think it will be fun or otherwise good for you.

Doing freebies for a commercial event not only hurts the VJ scene, it is also probably illegal in most countries. In holland the term is 'concurrentievervalsing' ... what is the english term ? 'competition forgery?'
Basically it means it is illegal to employ people w/o paying them, because its unfair to other companies who pay their employees like they should.

[k8eepants]

also....i just remembered that i started my psych career volunteering too......i think it's not so unusual in any line of work to start off for free or expenses only, it's just good to know you're worth, new or not, free or not...and its always good to give an "as if " invoice to a promoter you're doing free work for, just so they see what they should have paid you.


i'll shush now!

[LightFantastik]

In a business situationm, I agree that it's not wise to undersell yourself, or de-value your services by doing cheap shows. However, at the same time, if you want to do a show for free, then do it - and don't let anyone on a internet message board make you feel guilty about it. It's YOUR decision.

Sometimes VJing is a business, sometimes VJing is an art, sometimes VJing is a hobby, and sometimes VJing is just fucking around for the fun of it. It's up to YOU to decided the situation on a case by case basis, and act accordingly.

[LEVLHED]

Originally posted by k8eepants
...i paid ?6000 for my psychology qualifications and nothing for my vj training.... guess which job keeps my daughter in school shoes?

yeah..just about the same boat...all except for the part about the shoes.

[mondo]

you can afford shoes for your daughter!!!!

sheesh im in the wrong job.......;)

[scarab]

offtopic:

Originally posted by minimalniemand

Maybe if you are a winamp-"vj" you can work for free :D

this i take personal....!!!

there's nothing wrong in working with winamp. !!!
there's only a difference if you create your own stuff or you just download some plug-ins and put them on a playlist!!!

[psychodude]

I can understand that when you 're starting you can't ask the big money. But playing for free means that YOU actually pay the organiser to play at his/her party. Someone is paying for your equipment, your transport, your consumables (extra food, cd-roms, batteries, tape, ....) ... If the organiser doesn't pay at least your expenses, YOU are paying those bills.

But as LightFantastik said : YOU are making that call.

[Portal]

Good thread everybody.

I played one show essentially "for free" last weekend, and I will never do it again, unless I am *very* good, old friends with the promotor.

In my situation, I lugged all of my own performance equipment (a $4000 U.S. setup) . Only a white sheet (for screen) + old transparency classroom overhead projector was provided.

What I discovered is that if you play for free, you are not treated with any respect. There was no stage manager for the stage I played, and patrons felt free to jump up on stage, hang out, and talk with performers whenever they felt like it, while the performer was playing!! 1.5 hrs. into my 3 hr. set, and my LCD panel + overhead projector was knocked over by a foolish patron, and that was the end of my night right there. My data monitor cable was damaged, and I had no replacement (shouldn't need one, because such idiocy should not happen). I then packed up shop, enjoyed the rest of the party, and went right home. I was lucky...my equipment could have been irrepairably damaged.

The promotor has agreed to cover my repair costs (although somewhat reluctantly, with the minor impression that I may be trying to overcharge him for the repair invoice).

I never would have agreed to do this gig, if I never made the fundamental assumption that I would be paid *something*. The promotor had no intention of ever paying me anything. When I discussed the issue 3 days before the show, the promotor was a bit insulted, as if he was doing me some huge favour of a little exposure for a new VJ. Sure enough, but I am bringing a $4000 studio to this event! :) I would have walked away from the gig then and there, but I had personally told so many people that I was playing. My reputation is extremely important to me.

Bottom line personal advice for everyone (new and old VJs alike):

1) Don't play any event without a minimum fee to cover the personal rental of your equipment, no matter how new a VJ you are.

2) Get the name of the stage manager for your performance area before you arrive at the event. Ensure they know who you are and what technical requirements you have before you arrive to play.

3) Ask for the money you think you are worth, and negotiate with the promotor. Ensure a service agreement is signed before you play any show. Remember, your visual work and performance style is distinctive and innovative, and will add *tremendous* production value to the promotor's event. Intelligent promotors recognize this.

4) Ensure your name appears on any flyer, publicity material, etc.!

Comments anyone?

Best,
Marcus {VJ Portal}

[temp1]

:jump2: :yep:
Its getting there.

[videoteque]

The least the pay you, the worst they treat you!!!

[vjsatellite]

I've done alot of gigs for free, but I always made sure I didn't spend any money on gear hire. I didn't mind because it was a favour for friends(promoters) for small gigs.

I'm always happy to support the scene.

However...

I get really pissed off when you do these gigs and you aren't treated professionally. When the gear supplied is half arsed and they don't care about screen positioning, projector quality etc. And none of the promoters care about the visuals setup... they may as well not have visuals.

Also, if you aren't looked after at all during the whole night, I feel the minium decency is to at lease offer one drink, and someone to go and get a snack for you.

Mind you the above doesn't necessarly just apply to free gigs, I have done a couple of paid gigs that were shockers....

I feel do the gig if you enjoy it what ever the price, just make sure you are treated with respect. Because that respect is for the whole VJ community.

:)

[noplex]

really good thread everybody

I've noticed the subject of respect, by both promoters and musicians has popped up a few times. Can anyone tell me when that respect is arriving? At our next club night, a guest dj is costing ?3500 (shall remain nameless for the now), while a certain New York guest vj/programmer is only getting his flight payed for (actually, he's in Brighton anyway :)),while I'm lucky to get a proper share of the beer.

Working with my dj collegues is difficult at best. It's a begging game to replace a lost BNC out of the kitty :(

So how are we to get that all due and allusive re-spect. Communities and forums are probably the best way to start but I'm thinking that the qudos will follow when the public, punters, the people that pay the door price begin to see visualisation as an essential part of the experience, and not just an incidental add on to the big name dj.....get thier respect and the promoters will follow. Or maybe that public interest is more successfull in other parts of the world, but up here (scotland) we continue to hack away, slowly chipping at the club and art scenes idea of the worth of audiovisualisation. Persistance is a virtue.

ps Am not usually that moany :)

noplex

[holly]

I don't think I'd work in a situation like that.... If the budget allows for a DJ at that price there must be a lot of people in the crowd buying tickets.... Someone is making money, just not you.

[littlecatalyst]

ive said it before and sorry but will repeat myself and this is just my personal honest somewhat-humble opinion.

if it is a big show (5000 whatever people, or even a 1500 aftrehours racket) i don't think its a good thing to be cheap, thats true, better to practice like they say on your vhs, and maybe get in to the clubs by tag teaming or subbing for a vj you know... that way they will attribute the same value to the both of you....

but here's what i want to repeat. i love my free shows. holly, I will play a free eye wash whenever you let me, and lug my gear down from canada on the midnight bus. no worries. i love my dingy experimental loft parties and being able to do stuff that no promoter would ever let me do. for me there's always a greater sense of adventure in those contexts and the LAST thing i ever want to feel while vjing is like i'm waiting to punch out (thats what dayjobs are for, thats why kurt cobain killed himself, vjing just wasn't any fun for him anymore.... um, well you know what i mean) and that is what i feel at some of the $1000/night gigs (that cost me 25 hours studio time for pre-- and my gear, what am i that cheap??thats still not enough! i hate that feeling when i am just waiting to leave-- even if the show itself rocked.) the free ones i get to take breaks when I want to and do my own thing....

as far as respect, cab fare all that, you get what you command, sorry your show sucked marcus (we all had some nightmares when we first started out, hope your monitors ok). I never do a freeshow for something i dont feel for, and even then never go in without being annoyingly line-item about all of my needs upfront. including safety of my gear. drink tickets, guest list and all that..... and i find it works good for me. maybe im in my ivory tower, but i like it here i liek my gigs and i like the people i play with..... its like how much your going to earn, and all that, you have to s-p-e-l-l--o-u-t every last detail

at the same time i did an outfoor in the woods gig this summer that i was supposed to be paid for (a nameless show that was in fact put on by a VJ), and then found out after playing a BLISTERING HOT set, that "oh no, we decided everyones playing for free-- its for a good cause (whatever that was)" how nice. i didnt know that. the other talent didnt know that. none of the now pissed off djs knew that (and since the party lost money even after fucking everybody over they didn't donate to their good cause anyway). to make matters worse, not one of the 3 promoters ever even sent me a bloody email to say thank you (and one of them is a vj ffs). my mom was in the hospital, i had rented a car so that i could take off after my set and see her before she got operated (so i planned on breaking-even at best) in the end i was out quite a bit of cash and you would think that (especially cause they know my personal situation) they could have said thank you. if Rei ever does make his good witch/bad witch list i think i would add those people...

while i support playing free, its like the kind of venues that we have talked about being ok to play in for free, underground stuff, art, i'm sure our church VJs play for free and thats prolly ok too if you get something out of it (like salvation?).... but when some greedy mthfkrs are charging $50 to get in and selling the weed and the speed and lolipops and god knows what else (not every promoter, but we know what time it is) and then tried to pass you off like a busboy; kick em in the nuts! :grrr: better they think you are dangerour an dout of control than a pushover

[Portal]

littlecatalyst:

Just to clarify, that Oct. 10 gig was a fairly good show (and I had a heck of a good time playing 1.5 hrs. with Calgary's solid answer to Misstress Barbara, DJ Honeey Mustard). It just should have been more organized and professional.

I've since spoken again with the promotor, and there is a chance I will work with the crew in the New Year. But not again under the same conditions!

Best,
Marcus {VJ Portal}

[vjsatellite]

Originally posted by noplex

So how are we to get that all due and allusive re-spect. Communities and forums are probably the best way to start but I'm thinking that the qudos will follow when the public, punters, the people that pay the door price begin to see visualisation as an essential part of the experience, and not just an incidental add on to the big name dj.....

noplex

I think what Holly is doing with the Eyewash battles is a great idea, it really promotes the VJs. In Australia, specifically Canberra we suffer from the lack of respect issue, but raising the whole profile of VJs in Australia is tough.

A couple of associates of mine and myself are putting together a VJbattle/s (haven't decided how many nights) in the near future, obviously not a battle as such, but more promotion for VJs attending.

Hopefully that will help up the profile a little, and it's going to be alot of fun. ;)

[WordVirus23]

if you're going to do a new year's eve show, charge 5-10 times what you normally would (if you're just starting out) think of it as Holiday Pay... my shows are small (50-500 ppl) and I normally charge 50-200 bux, but squeezed 500 bux out of a promoter for a NYE show.. NYE is big money, make sure you get yours.

To be on topic:
I love house parties (at a loft or house... not club) I think it has to do with the fact that its more of a social situation... whereas at a gig, you are essentially playing for pay. I actually have a venue that I work with, that doesn't charge cover, the DJs and I play for drinks, food (4 star resturant) and fun... awesome bartenders, swanky place... but the only time I [feel I can] charge them, is when there's a private party with a cover/door. And also, you can get away with being <ahem> less professional (drunk) if your only payment is liquor. just be sure to give one of those free drinks to someone [cute girl] who paid to get in... there's nothing better for a party than a good word on the street.

fear and loathing in fresno
..james...


Originally posted by Portal
littlecatalyst:

Just to clarify, that Oct. 10 gig was a fairly good show (and I had a heck of a good time playing 1.5 hrs. with Calgary's solid answer to Misstress Barbara, DJ Honeey Mustard). It just should have been more organized and professional.

I've since spoken again with the promotor, and there is a chance I will work with the crew in the New Year. But not again under the same conditions!

Best,
Marcus {VJ Portal}

[akira_k]

I don;t think I have much to ad to what has been said here.

If the venue is commercial, DO charge. How much? You will see how you can charge for it and with time and experience invested from your side, you will be able to earn more. Never let some fucknut tell you that they're being good enough to you by giving you the space to do your set. That's pure bollocks, they're making money out of it, you are putting your gear to risk, a nd your time (and work!) is money, as they say.

However, for a non-commercial gig or event, and if you really really want to be there (because it is your friend's event, because you can learn from teh experience, or whatever you feel motivates you) do it. keep in mind obvious costs though, I have done some stuff for free but I did charge for all my mobility necessities, etc.

I'm also trying to "Fight for my right to party",..err.. I mean for respect. People don't get what the VJ is for, and brands only see it as an opportunity to flash their name in the screen or some shite like that.

[asterix]

Party - Doof - Outdoor - FREE OK
Nightclub - Promoted event - Not Free - they make too much $$$ already!



If you want a good place to learn why - Read 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad'. Treat your work and your life as an investment dude.

[julez]

i remember my dad giving me this book after he finished reading it...one of the more interesting things i had read in a long time:D