Biggest Party Boat in London needs a VJ (18th September)

[JohnyDisco]

Hi. We are looking for vjs that would perform a 4 hour session on the biggest party boat in London. Its our closing summer party with afterparty @ the whitehouse with tom middleton. We gonna be playing techno. There are three floors on the boat. And the vj is gonna be on the second one. Space is limited so the visuals will be behind the dj displayed with a projector. We are nearly sold out so there will be around 370 people on the boat and around 100-150 on our floor. If this works out then we will require your services again, and get you paid. This time cannot promise any money. Anyone up for that? :)

[mowgli]

We are nearly sold out so there will be around 370 people on the boat and around 100-150 on our floor.

So why is there no pay for the vj then?

[deepvisual]

its in the no/low pay section.
if someone else is daft enough to do it, let them.
but please, not another rant about the same old same old.

[mowgli]

It's a reasonable question in my opinion.

[thomase]

It is - but it's been talked about a gazillion times.

[KidKDN]

lol it is times like this that i am glad i am not in the UK.

[rolin]

The “Low / No Pay Jobs” section should simply not exist or be renamed into “Slavery Jobs”…

Promoters never will rethink or offer fair cash as long as this section is available for posting “jobs”!

[stickygreen]

The “Low / No Pay Jobs” section should simply not exist or be renamed into “Slavery Jobs”…

Promoters never will rethink or offer fair cash as long as this section is available for posting “jobs”!

i would disagree with this line of thought, there are plenty of reasons the low/no pay job section should exist, and if promoters don't want to pay for good VJ's then they will get shit performances, you get what you pay for.... the punters will tell them eventually.

[rolin]

i would disagree with this line of thought, there are plenty of reasons the low/no pay job section should exist, and if promoters don't want to pay for good VJ's then they will get shit performances, you get what you pay for.... the punters will tell them eventually.

well that might be one of the problems, because there is lots of talent out there and sometimes with low self-esteem and often the promoters simply get too much of what they haven't payed for…

it's basically about what someone thinks someones lifetime/hour is worth and it never should be £$0zero per hour…

[deepvisual]

its almost impossible to stop people from posting these kind of gigs.
its also next to impossible to stop people from doing them.
but trust me, promoters dont come up with these 'work for free' ideas solely because the low/no pay section exists.
at least this way, they dont clutter up the genuine jobs section.

[SteveG]

I always hope that young and hungry VJ's desperate to perform do their homework and maths. £20 a ticket for relatively unknown DJ's should allow some form of payment for a VJ to come in and add to the party, even if only his expenses. Naming Tom Middleton in the post is wrong especially when he's not even playing at this gig as it gives an impression he is.

VJ's should be encouraged to question promoters, were not a bunch of brainless nerds and promoters need to realise that even if it is their first post.

Poor show Disco Johny, £1 on your ticket would have secured a decent VJ for the night and I doubt that your guests would have noticed. perhaps next time you'll consider this. Remember computer crashes, blue screens and poor quality visuals are likely to spoil the party that you've worked so hard on.

I think therfore Mowgli's question is very apt.

[PCProject]

If they had put publicity like the Tom Middleton thing into the press the local Trading Standards or ASA wouldnt have been impressed.
Methinks Johhny Disco has much to learn he has.

[rolin]

its almost impossible to stop people from posting these kind of gigs.
its also next to impossible to stop people from doing them.
but trust me, promoters dont come up with these 'work for free' ideas solely because the low/no pay section exists.
at least this way, they dont clutter up the genuine jobs section.

That's true…

[JohnyDisco]

well... first... how many of you ACTUALLY organised a party?
i mean its a boat+club party. That makes things even more difficult. Not forgetting that its the biggest party boat on the Thames.

You should consider that its only 4 hours and we are not expecting something out of this world visuals. We just need something simple to go with the music and that would show our name from time to time. And you would get the opportunity to work with us in such clubs as pacha, ministry of sound, cabel, egg etc.

I get the feeling that most of you just sit at home, play a little with the projector and think that your awesome and everyone should pay you. Well, this business isn't like that. unless your doing visuals for a prom night or something... but how lame is that? :D as i said before... if we like you, we definitely keep in touch and get you paid next time.

[rolin]

well... first... how many of you ACTUALLY organised a party?
i mean its a boat+club party. That makes things even more difficult. Not forgetting that its the biggest party boat on the Thames.

You should consider that its only 4 hours and we are not expecting something out of this world visuals. We just need something simple to go with the music and that would show our name from time to time. And you would get the opportunity to work with us in such clubs as pacha, ministry of sound, cabel, egg etc.

I get the feeling that most of you just sit at home, play a little with the projector and think that your awesome and everyone should pay you. Well, this business isn't like that. unless your doing visuals for a prom night or something... but how lame is that? :D as i said before... if we like you, we definitely keep in touch and get you paid next time.

I'm afraid this answer only makes things worse! Especially the last sentence. I always try that line in restaurants and with my dentist, but so far nobody thought it's funny…

[PCProject]

well... first... how many of you ACTUALLY organised a party?

I have.
Your point is?

[thomase]

If I had a penny for every time I heard that "... there are big names in the crowd, maybe they'll hire you..." or "...next time we'll pay a lot..." sentence, I wouldn't have to work anymore. Fair enough that there are events out there with little or no pay. But there are a couple of things I don't get:
1. If it's the BIGGEST party, why can't you pay at least a LITTLE?
2. Are you paying DJs, bar staff, crew,...? If yes, why not the VJ?
3. If you're involved with pacha and the likes - why can't you afford a VJ?

As a conclusion: If you can't afford a VJ, work without a VJ. If you want visuals, pay a VJ or do it yourself.

[fata alex]

I agree with all the criticism of the original poster, the 'i will pay you next time' is always a dodgy one, along with claims of working with such huge club brands, and the party being 'the biggest boat party in london' all point towards them being able to pay people, not skimp on production.

But, people are entitled to post these jobs, and the low/no pay section is useful (remember anything under £150 goes in here, and for a lot of vjs, thats most of their work) for gigs that look a little less dubious than this one.

But @ JohhnyDisco - I've put on numerous parties of all shapes and sizes, including many boat parties so im familiar with the added costs of raving on a boat, and none of the reasons stated explain why you can't pay a vj.

Im sure someone out there will be willing to do it for experience and thats not a bad thing in itself, everyone has to start somewhere, but you've got to ask yourself, would YOU want to vj for 4 hours for nothing in return?

If there are some bizarre budget constraints that for some reason you haven't mentioned that means there is a good reason for not paying the vj, and you do genuinely intend to hire and pay the vj on future gigs, then appologies on behalf of the board for all the interrogation/attack, but really we've all been burnt plenty of times by similar requests, hence everyone being a bit defensive.

Ultimately, this:
As a conclusion: If you can't afford a VJ, work without a VJ. If you want visuals, pay a VJ or do it yourself.

[thomase]

I agree. It is ok to offer low pay/ no pay work. But i always think it's a bit dubious if somebody claims to have a big party but can't afford the VJ. Besides, I doubt bar staff will work for no pay, will they?

[mowgli]

well... first... how many of you ACTUALLY organised a party?


You're not doing yourself any favours with this comment. I asked a genuine and reasonable question. I've organised more parties than you probably ever will, both in clubs and free parties. I have nothing against requests for low/ no pay jobs but when you advertise in the low/now pay with the claims you have, pay for everyone involved in putting the event together is a must.

[Ne1co]

the low / no pay section is not usually for "biggest party" gigs,
but small, community, charity, and cross promotion parties

however for big event promoters posting
in this section, examples of alternatives to no pay could be

- a big presence on the flyer and all promo material
- being onstage at equal standing than the DJ
- samples of VJ works on the promoter's / event's website
- free entry to all the promoter's events in the next year
- D.O.A...

[Ne1co]

lol it is times like this that i am glad i am not in the UK.

true this is a local problem. UK promoters should travel and find out how much VJs are respected in the US, Germany, Japan...

[deepvisual]

that particular mindset is an integral part of the class system and is a recurring business model in Britain.

working class girls would groom the horses of the aristocracy for free.
The landed gentry would think they were doing them a favour by letting them.

[FingerHuman_00]

If you're good promoter you make enough profit to pay, if you dont make enough to pay theres nothing to be gained from playing with you.

That said there's always reasons to play for free,can't spot any here though.

[Ne1co]

This section should be renamed "non-profit"

so commercial promoter could not post here
commercial promoter not wanting to pay VJs should not post at all

[deepvisual]

good point olli.

[vdmoKstaTi]

This section should be renamed "non-profit"

so commercial promoter could not post here
commercial promoter not wanting to pay VJs should not post at all

Great Point Oli!!!

I had made a suggestion to remove "no pay" element out the forum description completely. I believe this will get enough common sense for us to make that switch pretty soon..

[unjulation]

totally disagree - ive just done a festi ware i knew that others were being paid but i was willing to do it for nothing because i wanted to do the gig and now they have asked me back next year

and that gives me the time to work out payment that everyone agrees with

its just moaning vj's getting above their station and thinking they are worth more then they are

until a vj brings in punters then realise ware you fit in within the hireachey of a party which is pretty low tbh -

[fata alex]

until a vj brings in punters then realise ware you fit in within the hireachey of a party which is pretty low tbh -

sadly very true

[rolin]

until a vj brings in punters then realise ware you fit in within the hireachey of a party which is pretty low tbh -

Sorry, but that is the wrong approach!

If it's about “bringing in the punters” and the fact,
that the actual contribution to the amount of audience by the VJs is quite low
we all can stop to do what we do now!

And if this is true, why would any promoter ask for a VJ in the first place…
you know the answer, because there are enough out there to do it for free.

So it's not having any positive effect on an event, but it's still nice to have a VJ?

The concept is very simple … it's about the lifetime you spend doing whatever you do
for someone most people usually barley know (the promoter).
And lifetime equals ca$h!

I totally agree with Oli. In the case of a charity or non-profit event a payment is out of question.
Therefor we need a “charity or non-profit” category here and we need to dump the low/no pay option.

As soon as the event is profit orientated, the promoter has to pay at least a minimum amount to anyone involved.
The promoter has to be the one who gets nothing in case the event went bad, not anyone else.
Because it's his or her responsibility in the first place. Full stop!

At the end of the day the major problem is,
that most promoters don't even take the time to do a research for a good VJ.
This automatically makes them bad promoters in my book.
If I'd do an event that is aimed on profit I'd want to make sure everything is of the best quality within the restrains of a given budget and
if there is no money left for whatever, then for the love of Buddha don't dare to ask someone to do it for free!
Just skip it!

[vjair]

if a vj is undeserved of being paid because thier name on the flyer doesnt pull in the punters, i assume that means the soundcrew, lighting crew, decor crew, and barstaff shouldnt expect to be paid either? i certainly dont go to events based on who is working in those positions.

[thomase]

Err how many punters does the LJ bring in? Or the bar staff? Or the guy/ gal at the wardrobe? The cleaning staff? Do they get paid? I sure think so.

[FingerHuman_00]

Maybe we just need to take a new approach and play these gigs , but ask for cash 1 hr before the end of the night and if they refuse threaten to bring out the holocaust/live aid starving kids/seal clubbing super mix, and let them deal with the complaints.

Might backfire at some gigs, some sort of vj affirmative action tho.

[thomase]

Maybe we just need to take a new approach and play these gigs , but ask for cash 1 hr before the end of the night and if they refuse threaten to bring out the holocaust/live aid starving kids/seal clubbing super mix, and let them deal with the complaints.

Might backfire at some gigs, some sort of vj affirmative action tho.

Now that's a good idea. And then play some text saying something along the lines "the promoter is a slave driver and doesn't pay his staff" or so...

[PCProject]

It has just occurred to me that promoters are an employer and therefore breaking the criminal law by failing to pay national minimum rate.
Maybe contacting HMRC would give them something to think about?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nmw/complaint.htm

I am a worker or ex-worker who has not received the minimum wage.

Experience has shown us that we are much more successful at investigating employers for non-payment of minimum wage when we have a complaint from a worker who is prepared to speak to the officer carrying out the investigation.

[fata alex]

if a vj is undeserved of being paid because thier name on the flyer doesnt pull in the punters, i assume that means the soundcrew, lighting crew, decor crew, and barstaff shouldnt expect to be paid either? i certainly dont go to events based on who is working in those positions.

Im really torn on this issue tbh, as i totally see both sides of the argument...

But...
The soundcrew does often pull in punters to many events, it depends on the type of night, but often people will go to a certain night because a particularly big/clear/heavy soundsystem is repping. These guys do make good money, but often smaller soundsystems are in the same boat as us, they want to get out there and do their stuff, get their name about so they do many gigs at heavily reduced rate or free.

Lighting crew, except for a very small number of top guys (mainly in america i think) are always unknowns, and not normally billed, they are paid because they are crew and act like professionals, they never try to act like artists as vjs often do. Its not as fun as vjing, so you get less people willing to do it for free, and the professional level equipment is harder to get access to for newbies, unlike modul8 on a laptop. So once people do get to the level of using professional gear, tehy've more likely spent longer in the game and less willing to do it for free.
But i have seen talented lighting guys work for free or nearly free.
More often than not though, rather than get a shit lighting designer in for free, they just have all the lights set to auto-reactive. Perhaps we should be thankful that more vj software doesn't come with better 'auto' modes.

Decor crews is a similar position, but i expect they get all the shit we do, on small gigs have to fight to be paid at all and on big festivals/gigs have to fight to be paid fairly.

Bar staff is an obvious one, its a shitty 'ordinary' job, many people want to do the above roles for the excitement and prestige of being part of an event/production, no one wants to be barstaff, thats why they have to pay people to do it.

And no, they can't run a gig without sound or barstaff (gotta sell drinks, gotta make money), but they can run it without decor, visuals or a lighting crew (set lights to auto)

Certain nights do get a reputation for having good sound, good decor, good visuals, but almost never (except for the name of reputable soundsystem) do punters remember the name of who provided that aspect of the production.
And generally the level of understanding/appreciation for visuals is still so low among the general public that mr promoter knows that he can get in his mate with a laptop, and most of the people there won't be able to tell the difference between that and the proper vj who wanted to charge £200

It's a sad state of affairs, but promoters are trying to run a business (most of them fail) and until vjs can prove that they can bring in an extra 20 people more than visuals done by matey-with-a-laptop then it's not worth it for the promoter.

Big props to the promoters who do fork out for visuals, becuase mostly, they're doing it at their own expense. I fucking hate it when i go to a club and see resolume demo clips playing, but to be fair, those promoters are just being businessmen.

/EndRant/

p.s. none of this means i think visuals are worthless, or that anyone should stop trying to secure better pay for vjs, its just the ugly truth as i see it

[vdmoKstaTi]

http://vimeo.com/groups/tokyovj/videos/15175995

[evomedia]

It has just occurred to me that promoters are an employer and therefore breaking the criminal law by failing to pay national minimum rate.
Maybe contacting HMRC would give them something to think about?

Yep would probably work, you would potentially get some payment out but whats it likely to be 8 hours at £5 thats a whole 40 quid, then they won't pay travel, or a real rate but just aim for the bare minimum... hardly going to cover equipment costs is it :)

Then when the government starts investigating minimum earnings they can stumble across the fact many VJ's haven't declare their earnings for tax , or dont have relevant health and safety experience, or their equipment isn't tested for use in clubs, or have flameproof screens, or are using a ton of copyrighted material. That 40 quid could vanish pretty quickly don't you think.

A proper can of worms :)

[PCProject]

Yep would probably work, you would potentially get some payment out but whats it likely to be 8 hours at £5 thats a whole 40 quid, then they won't pay travel, or a real rate but just aim for the bare minimum... hardly going to cover equipment costs is it :)

I wasnt for a moment suggesting that I would work for that rate. If you thought that then you are dafter than I am!

I was thinking more in terms of using it as leverage to make promoters realise that they cant just offer nothing, it isn't so much that you will get paid £40 minimum wage but that the promoter can be fined up to £5000 which will presumably put him/her and others right off

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/payroll/day-to-day/nmw.htm#7

[sleepytom]

Promoters are not employers.
they are contracting your services as a freelancer / company. As such they do not have any obligation to pay the minimum wage.

[deepvisual]

hahaha.

any motivator will tell you what is going on here...
if you convince yourself are worth next to nothing, you'll always end up working for nothing.

tell people you are a window cleaner and they'll ask you to clean their windows.
tell them you are a top end VJ and you wont work for less than £200 a night and you'll get plenty of work, you just wont be working for assholes..

[sleepytom]

Some of my best paid work has been for people that certainly fall into the asshole category!

[thomase]

I am told all the time I'm too expensive. But I rather stay in my studio than being a slave.

That doesn't mean I don't do free parties every once in a while.

[vdmoKstaTi]

It comes to this in the end.

If people are making money out of the event where you are asked to work for free- Stay Clear!!!
* or at least look for any other valuable non monetary offers that could potentially compensate your efforts, etc..
(eg. I would be happy to play 4 hour set for a new laptop from the sponsor )

[bilderbuchi]

yeah, but that's not always easy to determine before the event (when you negotiate payment). also, do you demand to see the promoter's financial records to determine the profitability of the event?

[rolin]

If people are making money out of the event where you are asked to work for free- Stay Clear!!!

As long as it is not officially a charity or non-profit event and
especially as soon as there is an entrance fee (and if the promoter is not a friend of yours)
everyone who provides a service for the event and the promoter has to be payed!

In case the event makes zero or even a loss it's the sole responsibility of the promoters and their bad discussions
(which might include a wrong choice regarding the VJ due to the lack of proper research).

Of course this is based on the assumption, that everyone who wants money in the end
has delivered the agreed goods and services fully and in a professional manner.

[Anders]

Its always the same, if we like what you do we will pay you next time :cool:

Well luckily enough where i live there simply are not enough vj`s, so unless i want to do it for the fun of it, i dont. But they still try to get you to work for free and its just not cool if others are getting payed ! end of story.

Just today i got the same rant from some promoter, about a club gig, and maybe im just starting to take myself too seriously, but if someone comes to you and sounds like a asshole while asking you to do free stuff its about time to ask them to not speak. But on the other hand promise free drinks for me and my friends all night and be up front about the economy of the gig then we are talking....