retro style = joshua light show

[MarcelFilm]

hey all...not a VJ...am a director...got here via an SF DJs spesh & jondi...wrote concept for a PSA with PDFA that calls for a filmore-east-nuveau-rave-style projected light show with colored oils, etc formerly known as a Joshua Light show (janice joplin era)....looking for VJ who uses this style and who can get behind non-profit anti-drug for national press and tv exposure...love to talk to all of you, and give details...email is: marcelfilm@earthlink.net

admin...if I'm in foul, put me right. just want to make contact with the artists.

[holly]

Hi Marcel(?)

Forgive me if I seem to misinterpret your post, but as a VJ I have to say this: Unless you are doing a retro/period spot about the 60's, oil+water visuals are going to look..., well, old. I humbly submit that if you want to reach people who are currently likely to try/use drugs for the first time, it might help to use a VJ as the provider of up-to-date visuals. A lot has changed since the Joplin era.

Please take a moment to look through Links to VJ showreels (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2275) and see what is the current standard for club/rave visuals.

Again, if your intention is to recreate a scene from the 60s I'm probably wasting your time, but I hope you will reconsider a more modern approach.

[MarcelFilm]

holly thank you for your response! I watched your featured work...very cool.

the idea is this...knowing what we all know about life and consquences to the actions we take, it always seems so strange that we need to repeat the patterns of gaining knowledge again...and again - an endless cycle. Even the way we create art with the new technologies starts over again from patterns and points already explored by those gone before us. nothing is truly new and standards shift with fashion - it's those who pull consciously and pointedly from the past who create the resonating 'new'.

I actually am not re-creating a scene from the 60's. I'm only using a 'lo-fi' light show technique to base an updated style on, and connect the viewer to a timeless sensation. the name "joshua light show" is from the joplin era, but the art and technique have survived...in fact evolved into what you do now.

I'm looking for a VJ who knows how to affect this style. perhaps I'm in the wrong area with this search?

again, thanks so much!

[LEVLHED]

I guess I'm still not sure what you're looking for...are you looking for someone with an oil-light, or a VJ who's video has a similar effect?

[MarcelFilm]

Both.

I'm looking to meet (via email, phone, in person) and speak with as many VJs as I can in order to discuss the project, it's intent, my vision, your vision and possibilities.

what I've posted is an over simplification (for many reasons) of a very unique concept for this venue (PSA)...the project will be broadcast nationally and the campaign calls for TV and radio, which we have designed this project to incorporate.

I am on a fairly tight production schedule, so if anyone out there is interested please contact me.

Marcel

marcelfilm@earthlink.net

[holly]

A few of us could probably recreate the feel of a liquid light show on video, or perhaps arrange the real thing for your shoot. I understand your deadlines. Please understand our caution and tepid replies. I can't speak for everyone here, but "PSA" translates to "free unless otherwise notified". Your idea does not provide a likely opportunity for volunteer work because:

1) It will most likely not be an opportunity to show our personal style or what we can do with the current state of the art in the medium.... It is therefore unlikely to lead to paid work in the future.

2) while I'm sure we would all promote responsible behavior, we have also rolled our eyes at anti-drug propaganda (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1846&highlight=drug%2A) and are unlikely to involve ourselves in what we would feel to be an unrealistic message designed to alarm parents that actually harms the reputation of our industry. I have seen positive PSAs and they show responsible teens calling home from a party and parents opening a dialog with their kids. The positive PSAs do not show teens making "bad choices" like getting shot and raped and funding terrorism.

If this is a paid opportunity please say so and those willing to do custom visuals work will contact you for details about the job. If this is a free gig "for a good cause" please understand that we have many opportunities to give our visuals away in a more positive envirionment that does not have the stigma of teens perpetually making the same mistakes as they have throughout history....

[Rovastar]

PSA ????? What's that?

[Kriel]

Public Service Announcement. They're adverts for charitable causes that commercial broadcasters in America are required to run a certain number of daily, by their license agreement. Agencies and directors often make PSAs (gratis) as a way of showing what they can do outside the normal ad-agency/client constraints.

Youth against drugs ... I dunno ... I'm not so young anymore ...

[brain]

to combine heavy 60s psychedelic aestetics with an anti-drug statement seems a bit weird to me (especially if it's the SF filmore which to me is associated with thousands of people dropping acid decades ago)...

and aren't you us people having serious trouble with legal consequences when creating a environment which seems fit for psychedelic substance (ab)use?

i mean if i imagine a vj playing seriously trippy visuals at a broadcasted event that "recreates" old-time ("high") atmosphere, is that not likely to get him into trouble for promoting drug use?

is the message "be wild and far-out like in the old days but don't touch dope" ??

or is it some tongue-in-cheek "anti-drug" cover-up?

me dunno neither... :confused:

[robotfunk]

interesting, you seem to want us to use drug related visuals to make anti drug visuals, for free, erm good luck mate.

[eXhale]

Originally posted by robotfunk
you seem to want us to use drug related visuals to make anti drug visuals
could work, doublespeak is common nowadays ;)

[MarcelFilm]

again, thanks for the responses. I feel that this has deteriorated because of my lack of clarity, so let me try to remedy that.

Rovastar wrote: PSA ????? What's that?

A) PSA is a Public Service Announcement - in the US it's formatted like a commercial, and is a recognized method of communicating to the pubilc at large that is subsidized thru tax exemption, corp and union donations (Kodak provides free film, SAG actors work Gratis), federally mandated free broadcast time and pro bono work. They are a freedom-of-speech chance for a wide variety of communities across the country to put forth ideas that are generally accepted as helpful to our society. Tens of thousands of creative professionals work on them - gratis (for free) - year after year for personal or political or professional-political or personal-professional reasons, but coming together under the idea of affecting change at some level.

most PSA's suck and I'm doing this to affect some change, hopefully, in the way they are executed and the way the message is delivered.

the VJ participation will be pro bono...without monetary compensation, like mine, and like the DJs and the actors and the CG artist, etc. professional relationships and national exposure is all that is offered...as stated previously.

Sorry to be pedantic, if I was. I just want any interested parties to understand the beast I'm talking about.

holly...while I can certainly understand your caution...thanks for the link - insightful...you all seem a much more empassioned and opinionated crowd than to give tepid responses!

your encompassing, and pre-emptive, subscription to the idea that this project is..."unlikely to lead to paid work in the future." is simply wrong.

that depends entirely on the VJs desire and ability to work collaboratively and impose thier style within conceptual perimeters. I'm looking for the VJ who is interested in exploring that kind of work. Of course an auteur would be inapropriate and frustrated in this kind of work, and would likely not contact me.

it's all about the relationships, exposure and name recognition.

the problem with PSAs is that so many suck - they possess an overall tone of self importance, a symptom of old white guys setting the standard for message format. what you likely don't know about PSAs is that legally the message and claims have to be vaild and verifiable; so if someone is saying they got raped like that...they got raped like that. the mistake of the PSA is trying to pick the most impacting story, and relying on that to support the whole message, it never holds up. doesn't mean it's unrealistic, or that by making young girls aware of that story that they won't party more responsibly and be more aware of thier surroundings - which is what living truly is - and what those messages really are about. life, living, creating...it's all messy...and risky.

I can't respond to the negative/positive thing...too long.

sorry to go into all this...I felt I had shake off the major bad-vibe-gravy holly poured all over my effort here w/o spending an ounce of energy to contact me to find out the real story.

Marcel

[MarcelFilm]

sorry, all...I'd love to post the concept treament (which would clarify the approach quite a bit) but I just can't.

the message is to party responsibly. Be aware of your actions. Make choices you are clear about.

the target drug is Ecstasy.

the target aud is teen girls who are one time users or inexperienced with mdma

please contact me to discuss if interested:

marcelfilm@earthlink.net

thankz all! so not tepid!
Marcel

[LEVLHED]

don't blame holly, I think she very adeptly summarized what the majority of us feel...and she didn't make the gravy, the RAVE act and every other misleading "just say no" PSA to date made it....understand that such rediculous legislation directly influences how many work oppourtunities exist for VJs.

[holly]

Let me guess: girl goes to party drops ecstacy for the first time and gets raped. It's targeted to teen girls because they have all the responsibility in the world when they get raped. It's the GIRL's fault! Yeah ? and I'm the one pouring bad-vibe gravy:rolleyes: riiiight..... Howabout some idiot wannabe director in New York goes to a party and gets ass-raped after a few too many martinis. Aw, where is this PDFA so I can submit my version of a PSA and get a budget to push my sermon! NEWS FLASH! Women aren't victims and ecstacy will NOT get you raped.

I've tried to be overly polite and explain how things might be perceived here, which as anyone here can attest is NOT in my nature. Now I'm going to tell you straight: go to a mall and buy a couple of blacklights and an oil lamp from SPENCERS because there's not a single one of us who would be spending less than that wasting our time and equipment with your bullshit. Every single one of us IS an auteur making our OWN art and not looking for freebies with no pay and no recognition. Take your negative propaganda anti-female shit and fly away, Jerk-off.

By the way, I'm jumping at the chance to VJ "on the radio", Oh, not MY vj but whatever out-of-date crap YOU think we evolved from ? trays of water and oil, puh-lease. FOR FREE no less and with no acknowledgement of my art.... Buh-bye.

[vjnixmix]

I just approached this thread after LEV said he thought it sounded interesting.

Which, allthough we may not get monetary value from it - I think it is. Here you have someone trying to change the so common image of an anti-drug PSA. Do we not support the people who are trying to come up with more modern ways to approach the anti-drug war? Yes holly you have a point that the Anti-drug laws are coming down the ladder to eventually destroy the opportunities we have to perform, but please do not shun someone that may be fighting the same war.

Marcel, I am only writing this to re-assure you that whatever angle you may be approaching your concept from, (which I hope it is as I stated above) all thoughts and talk about projects are welcome on VJForums. While there may be more political undertones to yours that does not mean that other members may be interested in being involved in your cause.

I may be wrong, but I thought you were citing the rape thing as an example.... Holly maybe kicked into "Feminist mode" a little soon on that one. No offense Holly ... but try not to scare people with ideas away if you don't agree. If I were Marcel after that last response I would prolly not want to talk about my projects on these boards ever again... and that is really not a good thing.

:jump2:
Peace, Miss Nix

[Kriel]

Holly's 100% on-message and 100% right.

American media don't handle these issues realistically. They handle it through a veneer of fundamentalist politics. Which doesn't help anyone who's just necked 4 Mitsubishis. That person needs real information, not real morality speak.

f you wanna know how to do proper PUBLIC SERVICE handling of drug issues, try going here, to BBC's One Life. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onelife/health/index.shtml?drugs#topics) NO WAY an American TV station is going to be able to do something like this.

And until they can, I think creative visual talents are going to be a lot better off producing their own info-mercials on drugs and putting them online.

Cause anything realistic and on-message isn't gonna get run on an American TV station, or radio station -- ever.

[MarcelFilm]

hmm.

it would be wholly unfair for me to respond to holly's post...

but I much prefer the 'straight' response than the mayoral politeness.

thanks all.

[unjulation]

it would be wholly unfair for me to respond to holly's post...

actualy by not responding all you are doing is confirming hollys perception of what you are doing to outhers who have been reading this very interesting discusion

[bluntfaktory]

try contacting "Imaginary Forces" , they're what you seem to be looking for ! here is a page with cool film titles , try the one from the Island of DR.Muro , something like that might work for what you doing . be careful not to make it look too cool , you don't want to spark someone's curiosity !


http://www.imaginaryforces.com/html/index.html?s=projects&q=5

[fALk]

I am with Holly on this one 100%

Not only they are trying to buy us out NO they try to get us for free to send the BrainWashed Couch Potatos another of their white male Middle Class "be good" message... Oh god... how far has America Come? Now that the money is running out (because of a war that can not be afforded) they are trying to play the communist "oh its for a good cause" thing...


Marcel SHOW US YOUR WORK... Show us why WE should trust you to deliver a NEW message to the MassPopulation in America. I have not seen anything in American TV in the last decade that was even a bit modern or offensive in any regard... it seems everything shown in american tv is signed by this StupidWhiteBoyInWashington....

Your country is holding other countries back from legalising Dope f.e. Your country is setting some "moral" feeling into the world that is plainly WRONG. There will be no trust from us who fight this view with all things we have - why should we support a media format that has always done damage in this regard (at least in america - I did an interview lately that was shown almost uncut where I stated that drug use is everyones own bussiness and that if you feel like trying out you should! Try to resend this interview in America plz) The PSAs I have seen where complete 80s BS.... And I just warn any VJ to go this route for free. Let them at least pay you the capitalist way if you can?t resist it....

nice honest post holly....

[julez]

hmm looks like we're gonna get onto an anti-american government/media consoritium rant here. If i've interpreted some of these posts correctly, I think you've stepped into a bit of a minefield here Marcel.

From what i've just read about PSA's there's a very similar thing in Australia showing a guy getting the crap beaten out of him after he gets drunk and then a flashback and him making a "better" decision. All this kind of advertising does is generate contempt for those that create it...and i agree completely with fALk, u have to prove to us that u are trying to steer away from this backwards and simplistic view.
When i read this thread i thought u seemed like a reasonable guy and that u genuinely wanted to do something about useless PSA's but u won't get anywhere buy insulting people.
felt I had shake off the major bad-vibe-gravy holly poured all over my effort here w/o spending an ounce of energy to contact me to find out the real story.

The other thing is that u haven't explained to us properly what ur aims/concept/actual technique u're trying to use, is. This whole thing is starting to look dodgy to me. Anyone here is going to be naturally suspicious of anyone asking for a VJ to "provide a public service for free." Whenever I personally have heard this it is connected to narrow-mindedness and general mis-interpretation of whatever subject is in question

And Kriel's is 100% right. Read ONE Life because that kind of material works (although from you're post it looked like that was the kind of stuff you were trying to do), but its just not going to work in a country where the mainstream culture refuses to accept some of the most obvious realities about their society. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, especially to u, Holly (i dont know what you're views are on this situation) but that is just a blatantly obvious fact of American society.

anyway im done...if someone disagrees with my views just don't get pissed off. I'm only stating my opinion and i'm not trying to insult anyone

[julez]

i hope people r still reading this thread...i actually put effort into that speil

:P

[Kriel]

Nice spelling Julez!

And yes, we're still reading it.

I don't think it's a problem doing the anti-American rant -- at least not for myself, since I'm from Alabama.

This issue, educating people intelligently rather than from a moral base, is critical in American culture at the moment, and particularly on the dance scene.

Rave Act is an abomination, and in certain interpretations has done more to harm the audience than to help them. This was particularly the case when the acknowledgement of the possibility of members of your audience doing drugs was sufficient to allow you (say, as a promoter) to be prosecuted on drug charges. That resulted in many venues not having emergency medical crew on hand who were trained to handle Ecstacy cases. Because that would have acknowledged that someone could be taking Ecstacy at your gig. So you go to jail.

Disgusting.

I don't believe the CPB network affiliates could run truly informative drug-issue PSAs in America, as they would be concerned about their government funding getting pulled. And I don't believe commercial stations can run them either, for fear of some religious political action committee boycotting the station. And few people outside of New York watch public access, the one place where this information might get out via television.

From this side of the Atlantic, it's all looks very depressing, and it would hearten me to see a post from the States telling Falk and Holly and Julez and I and everyone else here on the forum how wrong we are, and why.

kx

[murph]

Originally posted by MarcelFilm
what you likely don't know about PSAs is that legally the message and claims have to be vaild and verifiable;


Hahhaahhaahhahahahaha

I'm sorry, but I think we've all seen the pot/terrorism commercials. What a load of bullshit. If that law is true, I imagine that the drug czar had to actually PAY for that airtime? In fact, I believe he did, several times during the superbowl even, with my fucking tax money.

I could certainly create what you're looking for, but it sounds like a great way to further drive home the idea in kids' minds that a rave is a great place to go if you're looking for drugs. In fact, I always hear from the older folks about how the news reports' crap on drugs at raves are what really made them popular, suburban kids heard about this place where they could get drugs, and drugs dealers heard about this place where they could make a lot of money, and they all flocked and created the 1998-2000 boom years.

When I started going to raves, I had no idea that they had anything to do with drug use. I didn't know anyone who took them, and nobody naturally made that association. When I started doing visuals, I wanted to create shows that could look cool without needing to be taking anything. Now, thanks to bullshit like this we have entire fucking laws being written to prevent these events based on the assumption of that association. I'll have no part in furthering that stereotype. I've seen far more ecstacy abused far worse at frat houses than I ever have at any electronic music event.

If you're interested in making a commercial that mentions the real situations where ecstacy is abused, and the real situations where teenage girls are at risk from said abuse, show a bunch of kids in their house while their parents are outta town, show frat parties, show kids out in the country who are bored out of their minds. If you want to show something shocking and reinforcing of stereotypes, by all means, film a rave, but don't expect help from those of us who are interested in supporting a vibrant and healthy dance culture.

And if you see the drug czar, (whatever the fuck his name is) spit in his face for me.

[eXhale]

speaking of that pot/terrorism PSA, the US gov has been quietly preparing the VICTORY act which creates a new category of crimes called "narco-terrorism". anyone who, directly or indirectly, provides "terrorists" support for "drug crimes" (including simple possession of drugs) risks between 20 years to life imprisonment. remember that, according to the PATRIOT act, anyone suspected of disrupting the governement is a "terrorist". indirect support means this could be an additional risk for rave promoters and anyone involved in that kind of scene.

http://www.libertythink.com/VICTORYAct2.pdf

[unjulation]

When I started going to raves, I had no idea that they had anything to do with drug use. I didn't know anyone who took them, and nobody naturally made that association.

sory mate i gota laugh :) drugs and comunall gatherings have been going on for centuries before j.c. and all the rest that they use to controle us, i would go so far as to say that its part of our colective consiousnes to know that they are part and parcel of the space that we work in, sorry but i just find it a bit nieve that you wernt aware of them when the whole sceen has been based upon there use even before "rave" per say was even a twinkle in someones eye

sorry i'm realy not geting at you just woke up and i should be at a free party but i slept through my lift phone call, what, me drunk, with my reputation, so i'm just a bit out there at the moment and just replying to what i see ;)

mind the bottle of white lightning is doing wonders to my brusied ego :lol:

[julez]

yeah..slowly and subtly we are being told what to think by a government that claims it is doing the best for the people.

Calling an act the Victory act or Patriot act is another sign that the administration is just playing on our post S-11 fears. Maybe we should be using our creative talents to effect change rather than to create a bullshit PSA that will just further the negative views on raves and our culture. No one here is denying that drugs are a problem at events (i hope):eek: but this kind of white middle America rubbish isnt going to help anyone.


Ahh the golden years of rave...:sad:

[fluchtpunkt]

on a side not ...reading this thread i've come to wonder:

where are the PSAs the tv-watching croud would be the most obvious target group for (& in most dire 'need' of): anti tv-addiction/couch-potato ads.

...i like the idea of viewing vjing & vjs as a kind of antidote or therapy for tv-addiction. having said that: maybe you vjs in the US could make 'pro-vjing' propaganda disguised as anti-tv PSA's (i mean 'everybody' else is using other peoples addictions as an excuse to try to impose their world-views on others) :

the target audience is teenagers addicted to soaps.
the concern is they don't have a social life or any social skills.
the message would be: teenagers who regularly go to parties/raves get audiovisual stimulation they can talk about in school the next day; but in contrast to turning into sociopaths they get to know people & develop social skills. most importantly, good parents should support their kids if they wanted to get into vjing, djing or organizing local events (instead of sitting in front of the tv they are doing something creative & building a community or public space).

:jump: :scared: :o

...or maybe more realisticly :rolleyes: :
the kid who got into vjing developed skills & later became famously rich as a PR exevutive for amnesty international whereas the other kid who watched tv all the time got completely indoctrinated, only bought consumer products & voted for bush... thereby funding 'the terrorists'!

...errrm :confused: or something like that


as for parties without any drugs: considering history - cultures all around the world - or my personal experience: it simply won't happen!


PS: took a break from vjing this summer & haven't visited the boards for a while. so here's a big HELLO to all you av-addicts out there, fp.

[murph]

Originally posted by unjulation
sorry but i just find it a bit nieve that you wernt aware of them when the whole sceen has been based upon there use even before "rave" per say was even a twinkle in someones eye

Bullshit, the essence of raving has never been about doing drugs, it's about dancing to techno music. Drugs and alcohol have always gone with partying and dancing to a certain extent, but the point is that until the nightly news got hold of the story, I don't think the rave scene had any more of that going on than any other dance/music culture.

When I started going I saw more people getting more stupid at frat parties than I did at raves, and I liked that.

[vjTranceKoder]

WTF!!!!??????????????????????????????????????????? ??????_??????_??_?????_?????_????????????_??_??_?? ????_????_???_???????!@#$%^&*()_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the info, eX.

Reminds me of the FEOTF act. It stands for:

Fuck Everyone Out of Their Freedom act.

You heard of this one? It was tacked on to the WCYND act:

We Control Your Nation, Dumbass

Which was compiled by Senator "my daughter was raped at a rave"
O.D. Crackhead

GOD!!!!! I love this country!:heart:

[unjulation]

throught history peeps have been doing mind altering substances and geting together and danceing, partying and geting of there heads as part of there socail set up, wether that be part of a religious background (of all shapes and forms) or just recreation and the dance sceen was no diferant

i dont know how the perticular party sceen in minasota started and grew but i realy belive that if the drugs of choice at a rave wernt part of it right from the start then it would never have grown into what it is today, they were there at the start of the scean in the 80's and the combanatioin of the efects of mdma and 4/4 beat went hand in hand and created what latter grew into the club culture that we now work in

mind i have to say that i had been doing festi's and old skool free partys for a few years before the whole rave thing hapend so from that i was fully aware how drugs went hand in hand with that type of celebration and rave was just a continuation it just conected a hell of a lot more peeps then the type of hippy festi that i had been going to

but as far as i know then going out raveing was all about geting of it and danceing to musici t might have been diferant in your kneck of the woods or that you were atracted to it just because of the music but you carnt ignore the fact that drugs were a very strong driveing force within the whole dance culture as a whole

and this was all hapaning before the news got hold of it over hear in the sunny uk

as i recall going to some of the early raves in the uk 80+% were of there heads on some substance or outher and in fact i would say i have seen a drop in the number of people of their heads over the last few years then in the beigining of the rave culture

[julez]

they were there at the start of the scean in the 80's and the combanatioin of the efects of mdma and 4/4 beat went hand in hand and created what latter grew into the club culture that we now work in
This is pretty true but once the news got hold of the idea of raves being a place for drug dealing there was always going to be a huge increase followed by a decrease and this was what happened in the "boom years." As soon as the government saw that people were getting spangled in huge numbers at raves they closed it down.

Our culture did grow out of a drug scene but we have moved beyond that and (hopefully) create visuals that make people think they are one drugs:crazyeyes :nod: :eek:

[holly]

Perfectly said Julez. The main reason for creating eye-popping videos is to provide the kick of psychedelics (the somatic effect) without heavy drugs. The ability to put yourself in an altered state of self-awareness is the goal of meditation, chanting, prayer, dancing, yoga, exercise, hiking, psychotherapy, and a thousand other human experiences, not just drugs and wine. I've had this conversation with you before Unj, and I simply don't agree with your "the world is based on sex and getting shitfaced" theory. That's very cute for bar talk but it's too simplistic for the rest of us who lead complicated lives (but I'm not suggesting that your life should be any more complicated than what you want it to be...).

I went through an experimental phase with alcohol. It didn't last. I went through an experimental phase with psychedelics. Sad to say, it didn't last. The self-discovery of drugs just doesn't last forever. You learn about your body. Your tastes change. I'd rather have one martini than a keg of beer. I get a better high from protien than from cocaine. And I now have a way to get some of the psychedelic images that are in my head out onto the screen., and acid just hasn't been that good in years.

The real question here that makes PSAs so offensive is: Are you more likely to be victimized while on ecstacy...? Are you more likely to be raped when you are drunk...? Do the majority of traffic accidents involve alcohol abuse...? Do most accidental shootings involve marijuana? Look it up and put those honest facts in your PSA. If your cause is honest, you don't have to rely on thin propaganda. There are a few good PSAs, but only a few. The ones that work don't try to sensationalize rare examples to prove a bogus theory.

[eXhale]

drugs provide a taste of what is possible to do "naturally" through the techniques holly mentionned (i don't agree with psychotherapy though). with the exception of ayahuasca (i think?), drugs just activate chemicals which are already in our brain.

maybe that at the beginning of the rave years people were using drugs as a technology to expand their consciousness while now most of them use them more as an escape. they don't really understand its effects or potential... the effects of drugs is really dependant on each person, as well as what they believe the drug will do.

of course governement propaganda is largely responsible for this. the "war on drugs" didn't stop drugs, in the opposite, but it was successful in making sure people would not use drugs in a positive way. all they want is to prevent people to increase their consciousness, see the nature of reality, and realize what a big joke the current system is.

i used to go to raves with friends who would take XTC each and every time. it doesn't seem it changed them profoundly, except some of them are not able to think properly anymore. they're now all burned out and about to join "adulthood" and mindless consumerism. i'm glad i've always been cautious about this. being drug-free can be quite breathetaking if you have the right attitude toward reality.

:alien:

[unjulation]

and I simply don't agree with your "the world is based on sex and getting shitfaced" theory. That's very cute for bar talk but it's too simplistic for the rest of us who lead complicated lives (but I'm not suggesting that your life should be any more complicated than what you want it to be...).

ah but i would surgest that this is an over simplfied perception about what i'm talking about, which is a very compolex relationship between psycho-biological creatures and the reactions to the enviromental factors that they experiance throughtout there lives

on a simple level yes it can been seen as a geting shit-faced but i would surgest that it's a far more complex relationship between the indervidual and the drug induced experiance

now it does not take a very big jump to contomplate what anciant "man" experianced under the influance of drugs based upon there awarenes of the world around them at that perticular time in this worlds history

as for sex its the most fundermental aspect of being alive, life strives to create life, it is in my humble opinion the driveing force behind everything, it's the only thing that life whants and needs to do to furfill its perpose, its very simple and yet on the outher hand it has created an incredibly complex set of experiances and social rules that we live and breath within, now that to me is quite amazing

but back on topic as for the whole anti drug shpeel i would agre with you, in the 80's in the uk there was the whole "just say no" campainge aimed at the fear of heroin which backfired when you got heroin shike being fashionable

with these things you often have to ask your self which came first, a kinda chickien and egg syndrome

there is a very interesting study done on cirtain monkeys that live in the same area as holiady resorts who have acsess to alcholl stolen from the torists tables and what you got was a direct coalation between them and humans with something like 5% of the monky population becomeing alchoiolic, 20% regular drinkers but not alcholic, about 30-40% ocasional drinkers and the rest non drinkers whic as i said has a direct coalation between humans, i woulkd go as far as to suergest that humans have the same sort of reaction to all mind altering substances as a whole, the drug of choise might change from person to person but the statistics i'm sure would be prety much the same

[Rovastar]

ALthough I do agree with teh viewpoint of this thread I feel it is a little unfair on the thread starter here as it turned into a politcial debate and not all that relevant to the subject matter. Of can someone help me out with x, y, z.

I mean I don't post in all the 'I want to do a leftie anti government rave anyone want to do it for free VJ's' thread and say all what you do is bollocks you tree hunging scum. There are threads for that. :);)

It is the business side forum ffs. NOt the 'I am yet another lefty VJ rant here' forum.

Maybe someone would want to help this guy. I know not all VJ/visual art peopel are into drugs and drug culture. For example Andy O'Meara who made the popular G-Force visualization doesn't do anything and is I beleive anti drugs and is has strong Christain beliefs etc (the G in G force stands for God) so maybe there are people who will want to help.

I mean the Marcel did say he wanted to do something different. MAyeb his ideas are more radical. *shrug*

Marcel to answer your question nope not for me and probably not for many here. But maybe someone is interested.

[julez]

drugs are a part of are life!! and always have been. Most of the people who i know that take drugs do it for the sensation and not just for the hell of it. They're not junkies or nething, they jsut enjoy the feeling. But we've had this attitude beaten into us that drugs are all bad and that they can't be used in a positive manner. I dont think the drugs cause people to get raped because they are heaps of people who take E responsibly and dont get trouble.
hmmm maybe we cant do anything about it though..:sad:

[julez]

yeah ur right rovastar...(sry i missed ur post). it seemed like Marcel wanted to do something different. He talked about "responsible decision making." But id be suprised if hes still reading the post. I think we scared him off.
He didnt really go about it the right way though.

ah well

[unjulation]

truely rova but he didn't come back and explain his point of veiw and as a remember that he just refused

sorry, all...I'd love to post the concept treament (which would clarify the approach quite a bit) but I just can't.

and wouldnt even explain why he wouldn't explain himself, ah well..........

[LEVLHED]

and do you blame him?
with about a dozen other people already standing here with their axes in the air and the pyre all built....sheese...like anything he says is actually going to change any of your minds...

[unjulation]

lol, :lol:, trueley mate but that should never be a reason for not saying what you belive in, if i was like that i'd never post anything hear :nod: theres nowt wrong in a good argument

[Rovastar]

I must I missed the line in his opening post.

"Flame me here. I want a heated debate!"

[unjulation]

but you gota credit a man with inough awarenes of the situation if he is going to start a topic as flamable as this one with a bunch of peeps who are working in the club/party scean it would seem only reasonable that you would get a hell of a lot of people who are pro choice, seems obvious to me ;)

[holly]

Oh, he's still reading alright. I can guarantee you that!:P The original poster's partner wrote me to say this thread gave him a good laugh (at the expense of his friend). I tried to pump him for info about the treatment, but all he would say is that the funding comes from above, so they had to tailor the script for what would get funded.... I can't fault anyone for doing a job, but if you think this is an "honest" issue or a "good cause" or even remotely associated with Christianity or Reality or any other doctrine you are wrong. This was clearly and simply someone asking for free work, and someone insisting that we not offer our own style, but do what they wanted for a commercial venture where we would receive NO pay, NO credit, and NO recognition ? an issue we are clear about!

There are plenty of Christians here and also VJs who've donated time for youth events. Drugs are not at the center of this issue. Getting rooked for your talents+equipment and receiving nothing back (and expecting that we would thank him for the opportunity) is the ONLY issue here.

[Rovastar]

Yeah Hol I am not going to give my time up for this. Pay and yeah.

But that point I was making was that there are often threads like. Can you do xyz for free (True they mostly are left wing rallys and the like) and they do not come under the same treatment.

I am sure some (newbie) VJ's here would knock one out if there stuff was on TV. Just as some no doubt do for playing at a CND rally or something.

[holly]

The difference is Rova, it's generally expected if you are doing a free event you get to show your own stuff and promote yourself. Getting a spot on tv is cool, but what exactly was he offering here? There are situations where you would benefit from doing a free show, but tech/lighting work on someone else's commercial short is not going to further your VJ. I tried to get the guy to accept using our own videos but it was clear he wanted us to do his idea at our expense with no pay and no credit. Re-read his posts to see exactly what a crappy deal he was offering.

[julez]

sometimes if u believe in a cause enough u do it anyway...in this case i neither believe in the cause nor beieve in getting jipped by someone expecting us to nothing and produce no creative output has got to be joking.

But he still did ask and ive got to respect him for that

[holly]

I think it's our duty (when we have the experience) to point out a scam when we see it. If someone was offering an overseas computer for an amazing price and *cash only* through a wire transfer, I would hope someone experienced would step up and say, "this is probably a scam, don't do it". This was a guy claiming there was some sort of benefit to doing standard tech/lighting work on his videoshoot.... There are UNIONS for this sort of thing. This was not art or a charitable cause, this was someone who had received a budget to make a commercial. You complain about "bottomfeeding" more than anyone, Rova. I think you can easily see what's going on here.

What would everyone have said if some small advertising company posted and said "I have a great deal for you guys, make some free motiongraphic titles and logos for my company (which by the way has a nice budget from the client), and maybe it will lead to more advertising work for you in the future. BTW your creative input is not necessary...."

By all means, if that is something you want to do, contact him. No one deleted his email address. Perhaps he will let you trim his lawn and paint his house as well. It might lead to more yard work in the future.

[MarcelFilm]

drat and curses! if it weren't for you meddling auteurs...! foiled again!

I was a guest here, and will go no further in my commentary. That is what I can do to show my respect for you all are trying to accomplish. And I do have respect for your art.

thanks to all who responded in a helpful (and therefore positive manner), and to those who had the composure to "just say no" (btw...intentional irony).

marcefilm@earthlink.net

[LEVLHED]

so, just a recap here.
I sent them 4 or 5 800x600 uncompressed AVI variations of some nice rescreen feedback on DVD-R, including video-dvd versions so they could easily preview the files.
what happened? "oh, we've put this project on the back burner"
which to me means its never going to happen.

so, I gave up some nice content, spent countless hours even re-vamping it and getting extreme hi-rez files to them....for NOTHING. granted, I wasn't doing it for payment in the first place (they caught me at an altruistic time)..but I would have really like to see my work in the finished proposed project.

("I told you so's" not really needed here)

[holly]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
("I told you so's" not really needed here)
;)

I guess it would be pointless to ask for your footage back.:grrr:

[disassembler]

http://www.woodyoulikeit.com/images/big/sucker-turkey02.jpg

[KillingFrenzy]

http://www.archive.org/details/keep_off_the_grass
Just grab some of the effects from this and other old propaganda.
PSAs aren't parents. PSAs aren't peers.
If you want kids to behave intelligently, have somebody they respect give them the information they need. Fear tactics never accomplish anything but to confuse the subject. The person here is asking us to muddle our art in with a fear message. How could our art possibly benefit from this arrangement and further the goals of the PSA? What your asking us, oh my brother, is to be the Beethoven in the background behind the Ludivico experiments.

[visualove]

The dance community is about family - it is a manifestation of "Urban Tribes" (http://www.zenzibar.com/Articles/newtribalism.asp) , also a book (http://www.urbantribes.net/) . Where there are people in their teens and 20's there will be drugs, including alcohol.

I have found at underground parties people are taking care of one another. The tremendous creativity of VJ's, DJ's, space shapers is sustained by the real "family values" of the community.

People in their teens and 20's have very sensitive crap detectors for television. Holly's original comment about the credibility 60's visuals to people who were born between 1980 and 1990 is spot on. If you want to make a PSA - aim it at the parents who are lacking family values like love, responsibility, communication, respect and educating their kids. (And let's keep birth control, sex education and choice legal in the US...)

As for professional values, the original requestor seems lacking, maybe we need PSA's to promote more ethical business practices!

(On the other hand, if this PSA is made, it can be culture jam-sampled, just like all the past goofy anti drug messages!)

http://www.scarletstreet.com/imagesPOSTERS/reeferZ.jpg

[visualove]

A clean cut fellow toting black book walks into pulsing dance party. We will call him Mephistopheles.

The sea of dancers parts for the man as he approaches the VJ. Music fades so we can hear the conversation between the two. (that is not entirely realistic...)

[Mephistopheles] "I have a deal for you, create some lame visuals, which have nothig to do with your current creative artistry, for a cause you might not even believe in, on a short time schedule, for free"

[VJ] "Could you explain exactly why I should do this?"

[Mephistopheles] "You will gain great respect in a narrow segment of the production business that may hurt your career in the future."

[VJ] "I am sorry, that sounds like a poor choice, I have my respect."

Mephistopheles stomps foot and vanishes in a puff of smoke.

The End

[littlecatalyst]

...just in case anyone is interested in the old school stylee (as opposed to the politics of a) working for free b) doing drug free PSAs....) i would suggest that you get in touch with the folks at Dimention7 in SF... see, they're pals with the "Brotherhood of Light" VJs.

BoL are old school old hippie style... they have 2 peeps on the team, way nice guys BTW, one send a feed off two oil projectrs hooked into a V4 and then the other guy hets that feed, mixes it into an mx50 and another v4 (think he might also have an ae5) and an array with 9 dvds.... they mix everything in there with oils (stuff that they traded... like the KILLAH Spotworks and other bay area vis...) these guys are oldschool.... do visuals for the allman brothers (whats left of them) and "The Dead" (formerly known as the grateful dead -minus the furry guy). While it is oldschool and has that 60's vibe.. the tweakery thatthey do to the oils brings to it a contemporary flava...

...one thing; i dont know if they would work for free or consider doing an antidrug PSA.. but anyone else looking for this flavour might do well contacting the Brotherhood of Light.