What is the legal status of DJs playing bootlegs?

[syzygy]

Just something that I was wondering about over the weekend...

Whether we agree with the laws or not I think we all agree that using copyrighted material in VJ sets is stictly speaking an illegal act under current (UK and US at least) legislation.

But what is the situtaion with A DJ playing a bootleg record? Obviously the person who made and sold the record is guilty of breaching copyright law, but is the DJ also breaking the law?What about the club that allows the record to be played? Could a club, theoretically, get in trouble for a DJ playing a tune that samples, e.g. a TV Programme or a film.

So much modern dance music contains uncleared samples of some sort - even that played by really big name DJs. And then there are botoleg remixes of tracks where, presumably, money does not go to the original producer - are those technically illegal as well?

I'm assuming that all this stuff fits into the same "its illegal but noone cares enough to do anything about it" category as VJs using samples" but I was wondering whether there is some difference when music is involved...

Dan.

[robotfunk]

It does not matter what is played on parties or in clubs. They pay their public performance rights based on the amount of square ft. dancefloor. That money goes into a big pot and is divided between artists. There is no way to make sure that the money goes to the artists who made the tracks that are being played, so if one artists samples another, there is no financial difference. Basically in a live gig you can sample whatevery you want because of this reason, releasing it is another matter

[holly]

I'm not so sure anymore that it would be "illegal" to play copyrighted movie clips (video samples) in a club. After reviewing and reviewing the copyright laws (at least in the US) it would be a hard sell by the movie companies to show that a VJ is damaging their product or market share. The act of using samples is not illegal (you are not going to be arrested), but it may invoke a civil suit from the company for license violation....

As to bootlegs, there was a recent international bootlegging operation in Amsterdam for some Beatles rehearsal tapes. Obviously the bootleggers went to jail, but I don't know what happened to all the copies. I would think any copy found could be re-possesed by the police, and it would be illegal to sell them in stores again.... I don't know about playing in clubs. What is the legal status of a bootleg?

[holly]

Kriel just PMed me to say maybe I don't know what a bootleg is or there may be a different word for it in the UK/US. Over here a bootleg is just an unauthorized recording released as a low budget record or tape (could be from a concert or a demo or other such "not for official release" recording).

Kriel said in the UK it means more along the lines of an unauthorized re-mix.

Either way I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that your range of what's legal is very loose when you are live and there are no recordings or broadcasts. I can't imagine you getting in hot water over a live situation unless you were trying to build a reputation around playing bootleg tracks.

[BRK]

bootlegs in the u.k.
they like to call them mash-ups in the US.

they tend to mean un-official remixes but it recent times have come to mean the mixing of the accapella of one track with the instrumental of another.

Many radio stations in the u.k. play bootlegs with no problem. Even mtv are doing it now... (www.mtv.co.uk/mtvmash)

I can say from personal experience that making a reputation for playing bootlegs live is not a problem. yet. we've been doing quite a lot and quite blatantly.

[syzygy]

I know that noone is at all likely to get in legal bother for playing bootlegs, just as no VJ is at all likely to get in trouble for playing samples. What I was wondering was whether playing a copyright-breaching track is itself technically an illegal act.

Assume that person A creates an unauthorized remix of a track and sells/gives it to person B, who then plays it in their set. Is person B technically breaching copyright by publically playing the track or is it only person A who has breached the copyright?

Dan.

Holly- I should have been clearer really. Bootleg used to mean an unauthorized copy in this country too but in recent years the meaning has drifted somewhat.

[robotfunk]

I think only person A is doing something illegal.

If he werent a criminal he could have used his full surname

[Kriel]

Originally posted by holly
Kriel just PMed me to say maybe I don't know what a bootleg is or there may be a different word for it in the UK/US


I definitely meant there's a different word for it here...

Eclectic Method have been making a reputation for themselves doing nights with pre-produced video bootlegs/mash-ups.

And audio bootlegs constitute most of Norman Cook's sets these days. From what I know, he only has hassles when he releases them prior to clearance, and then the hassles are HUGE.

[BRK]

just as an example of what is completely illegal i'll post a link to eclectic method cd-rom

http://www.eclecticmethod.net/cdrom

[vjrei]

Using copyrighted material is illegal, but...

1. A VJ is not a tread to any industry, the material is used in an artiscti way and will no produce harm to anybody.

2. A VJ uses the material for a limited audience of 2000 people at most and the material is not the same one during the entire night, there are small samples.

3. The money earning by a VJ is not enoght to establish a law suit, how much money are you gonna make out of a poor VJ any way?

4. There are not enogh VJs in the US or UK to say they are a treat to the video industry and that take me to #1. It is art in a club, it is not a movie teather making proffint of a movie. Most film directors and producers would feel happy to see a clip of a movie of them performed in a club. A 5 seconds clip proyected for 5 minutes will not harm any one, it would be the other way around.

Remember, producers, directors and actors are artist too, beside in the law there is certain tolerance.

Now, if you are making visuals for U2 or a huge band that will be something else, we would be talking about a few millions in proffit and a law suit would be very good for some people.

On the onther hand if I made some clips and you are using them some how without my permision I may suit you, that is the only scenario I see, from one artist to other but forget about big corporations and industries, they can not even do anything to a pirate that is salling copies of their movies in the streen under their own noses.

[holly]

Ah, yes. I know what this is. We have a local group 2ManyDJs who are doing this thing.

[robotfunk]

local? you mean from belgium surely?

[wellREDman]

yeah i wasz sure they were from the low countries somewhere

[myogenic]

I had a long chat with a guy who works for a very well know record co only last week, and also chatted to a record label based in the midlands recently

they basicly both stated that there's not much anyone can do about it, as the legal costs involved in prosecuting outway the revenue that they would make if they successfully sued.

The record industry in the uk is going through turmoil at the mo, and they're trying to keep their heads above water, not worrying about a label pressing a few thousand copies of a bootleg track.

i only hope that the same attitude is taken with video samples/mash ups...

[syzygy]

Originally posted by robotfunk
local? you mean from belgium surely?

Having played with 2ManyDJs, I can confirm that they are indeed a brace of nice young Belgian men.

Trying to appropriate them Holly? :P

Dan.

[holly]

Wha-? Isn't everything NTSC? Whadya guys talkin about?

Ok, shows what I know. They had a party here for a while. I'm not big on trendy music. I'm listening to that Bossa shit.

Since I know nothing in this thread, I'll excuse myself before I say something else stupid.

[PilotX]

back to the topic..
I know that bands play things live that they would not be allowed to release (fun loving criminals for instance use samples from movies etc. in their live sets that they have said they could never get permission to use in a release), I would imagine that similar rules apply to bootlegs, that they come under the public entertainment licence a venue has..

[vjnixmix]

I always thought the re-mixed records that the DJ plays were called Whitelabels... I am sure there are many ways to call something... but this is close to another thing I have thought of often and thought I would add the point.

A dj plays a lot of records out at the club ... because an hour set is usually around 20 records. Most of those are copyrighted including for public performance (except white-labels). So I am certain that MANY Djs break copyright laws all the time... as I am sure VJs do often too.

Is this not kind of what our culture is based on (at least the Rave culture in the mid-west) kind of like an attitude that they really don't respect any laws inflicted on them... including ones pertaining to their music and their entertainment...
This is an attitude I site on my observations from the early rave scene in the midwest - we broke into warehouses and did LOTS of illegal shit all the time... just to party and dance (so don't take me the wrong way)
;)

[PilotX]

Originally posted by vjnixmix
I always thought the re-mixed records that the DJ plays were called Whitelabels...

in th uk whitelabels are pre-release/promo editions of songs that may or may not be released.. alot of tunes with illegal samples go out on whitelabel, which means they do not carry the record labels insignia etc. and are often handwritten names of tunes/producers.. they often never get a proper release.

[vjpixylight]

I think it is like Jilt said..
Over here in the US, clubs/venues have to pay ascap or bmi money if they have any kind of musical enterainment..
I this scenero, the club DJ's can play anything they have legally..
If the club or say Rave doesn't have a license to have music, that is another thing...:P

[bluntfaktory]

to make and sell a bootleg is one thing , a bad thing , but to play it , or to make it and play it should be ok , and if the bootleg is so different from the original who'll know or care , especially if the original is crappy and the bootleg rocks .

[sleepytom]

i think nobody really cares at this point in time....

the 2 examples i allways come back to are cartel comunique - whos bootleg video cutups landed them a weekly spot on a channell 4 music show

and eclectic method who have a regular MTV show now.

ok i'm not saying they'll never get persued by the law but on ballence they've done very well out of it (and can allways run away to bosnia if it all comes on top!!)

[michaelheap]

Originally posted by sleepytom
(and can allways run away to bosnia if it all comes on top!!)


or get the bosnian massive on their side!

[michaelheap]

or indeed the bosnian Maffia

[BRK]

yeah we've had to move the safe house to Serbia since US copyright laws are stretching further and further these days.

Incidentally anyone hear the story about the BUSH administration getting the head of RIAA to write up Iraq's new copyright laws.

The BPI in England have said they will not have a war on Peer 2 Peer users like the one that's happening in the US at the moment.

And to date we haven't had a single incident with people threatening to sue us or anything like that.

I think if a DJ mixes music in a club... why can't we mix music videos?

also with bootlegs unless you are selling thousands, which no-one is, then you are only helping the artists. We are playing Britney in places where people would never listen to her.

Basically Tom's right as always

[sleepytom]

on the bootleg theam you should all checkout the exactshit dvd (not that the ninjatune shop (http://www.ninjatune.net/ninjashop/index.php?cat=4&type=LP&by=6&code=EXACT001#EXACT001) would sell such a blatently illegal disk)

[jdat]

Originally posted by BRK


Incidentally anyone hear the story about the BUSH administration getting the head of RIAA to write up Iraq's new copyright laws.



I don't know if this is totally true but if it's truly the case then that's really stupid.

I know that in Iraq and countries in that area putting stuff on audio tapes is still pretty common and well copies are a regular thing to be found. If they're going to try and stop rampant copying of copyrighted music it's just not going to happen over there.

I've been to some shops in countries like Bulgaria where all they do is sell copies of music ( and not just some shady booth on the sidewalk but an actual store ).