Root Society 2010 is looking for VJ's! @ Burning Man!

[vjinfinight]

Hello everyone, Root Societys looking for VJs to perform with us at Burning Man 2010. Root Society is one of the largest sound camps on the playa and we have a great visual set up and a new video setup that will blow your mind.
If you are a VJ, your gonna be blown away at the structure you will be performing on.
We mix from sunset to sunrise from Wed through Saturday night and are looking for experienced VJs only.
We are specifically looking for VJ's that will be attending burning man on our new screen. Interested artists must be willing to work with the music as their guide and be ready to incorporate DJ names. If you are interested in performing with us please send a demo of your work to Morgan Lavery VJ Infinight) to morganlavery@gmail.com by August 15th.
Ideally send us a link to your website, if you have to email a movie please keep it small. We are specifically looking for examples that demonstrate your mixing skills/style. Also, please send us information about styles of music you like to mix with, how long of a set you are interested in, any special equipment needs and anything else pertinent to performing, we'll do our best to slot you in.
Burning Man is a not for profit event, and thus none of us, including the all the DJs, receive any payment or comp tickets. However, if you are planning to be at Burning Man, and want to jump in and mix a set we'd love to have you come and play with us.
To see a sneak peak of some content our in house crew is making, see the attached video
Hello everyone, Root Societys looking for VJs to perform with us at Burning Man 2010. Root Society is one of the largest sound camps on the playa and we have a great visual set up and a new video setup that will blow your mind.
If you are a VJ, your gonna be blown away at the structure you will be performing on.
We mix from sunset to sunrise from Wed through Saturday night and are looking for experienced VJs to help us b low out the visuals in grand style.
We are looking for experienced VJs to join us in our mission on our new screen. Interested artists must be willing to work with the music as their guide and be ready to incorporate DJ names, which we will provide. If you are interested in performing with us please send a demo of your work to Morgan Lavery VJ Infinight) to morganlavery@gmail.com by August 1st.
Ideally send us a link to your website, if you have to email a movie please keep it small. We are specifically looking for examples that demonstrate your mixing skills/style.
This years theme is based off of the movie "Metropolis", so any incorporation to following that theme is greatly appreciated,
Also, please send us information about styles of music you like to mix with, how long of a set you are interested in, any special equipment needs and anything else pertinent to performing, we'll do our best to slot you in.
Burning Man is a not for profit event, and thus none of us, including the all the DJs, receive any payment or comp tickets. However, if you are planning to be at Burning Man, and want to jump in and mix a set we'd love to have you come and play with us.

Check out some of the content currently being created here

YouTube- Tower Of Babel Preview Final

Thanks

[Pleasuretek]

Burning Man is a not for profit event, and thus none of us, including the all the DJs, receive any payment or comp tickets.

Where does the $300 a ticket at 300,000 tickets go then? You didn't get a burningMan grant you can share? I have seen and been offered comp tickets before. If you have iterated into the nextLevel screen, where are all the variables that need to be passed into it (thats what your currently manifesting I know...)?

Burningman family is really good at hustling people into 'gifting' down their talents, and hardware investments, while the main organizers are able to buy big houses in SF area (not to mention all the madChemists with their research 'alphabet soup'...) There is a lot of big number money being collected out there, even with no cash ideology, people must trade value for that which they consume (yes I view the burn as a consumer festival, they consume the chems, energy, and become a consumer of the psychedelic/religious/mindBlowing experience)

I am sure there will be many VJ/trustafarians that will go to the burn anyway and you will find community members to bring/show their art, that is easy. Trying to advertise and organize (the gaian complexity churn which organizes itself) people to buy into the burningman experience... Don't forget to tell them to cry when it burns.

Friendly advice,
Remember to avoid the dude buying a cigarette for a dollar (looking for people that understand high profit margins, and willing to sell what they got), answer all of their questions with "No, i dont know where you can find that, I don't think anyone is really into that, and its rude to ask someone who doesn't like that stuff anyway", and wear a costume that modifies your face enough so that when they get pictures and images of you they will not be able to turn them into accurate haar cascades for facial recognition systems (You will get another little tick next to your name in the great lexusNexus dataset), Never give out your real name. You are walking into cyberPranksterGangster neverNeverLand, Stay safe and sane.

From a dirty little 'Drainbow' warrior, yeah we rage it harder/furthur than you.

[deepvisual]

damn, now everyone can see the strings..

its a double edged sword. put up with the parasites who milk the scene - so the cops and politicians can get their payoff and leave everyone alone, or do it yourself and take the risk that you'll get busted, or trampled by the Hells Angels or whatever professional villain stumbles into your little corner of paradise. same applies to glastonbury or global gathering or any of the legit festivals..
it sucks either way.
as decent humans we can do better, but not while we are totally surrounded by absolute bastards.

[vjinfinight]

OK...
PleaseureTek, Have you ever been to burning man?
Lets just get some stuff in order

"Where does the $300 a ticket at 300,000 tickets go then? You didn't get a burningMan grant you can share? I have seen and been offered comp tickets before. If you have iterated into the nextLevel screen, where are all the variables that need to be passed into it (thats what your currently manifesting I know...)?"
- First of all, burning man has no commercial vending, and only sells 50,000 tickets at max every year. That being said, burning man does give out $500,000 of this money to art grants like you mention, however, no sound camps recieve grants whatsoever. None of our artists performing this year (including Fatboy Slim, The Crystal Method, DJ Dan, Mochipet, Bassnectar, Freq Nasty, ......and more) recieve payment or comp tickets. Since Burning Man is a completely no trace event, hakf of your ticket cost goes to the portapotties alone, not to mention BLM fees, etc) In fact, burning man has yet to turn a profit and the only assets they have aquired from their ticket sales has been a 30 acre parcel of land outside gerlach NV to store things.

So before you diss it, get your facts straight. Once again, I did post this in the No/ Low Pay Jobs. I understand people need to make money, however thats just not what happens at the largest no trace arts festival in the world. Everyone does it for the art, not the money :)

[PCProject]

Are you suggesting that Fatboy Slim pays his own travel costs to play at Burning Man for free?

[evomedia]

Quote from vjinfinight: In fact, burning man has yet to turn a profit and the only assets they have aquired from their ticket sales has been a 30 acre parcel of land outside gerlach NV to store things.

I suggest when you lay into someone saying before you diss it, get your facts straight you should check your own facts first

Burning Man Tries To Cope With Cash

Appearing rich has become a problem for Harvey and his 21-year-old counterculture arts festival. This Labor Day weekend, Burning Man is expected to generate $10 million in revenue from 45,000 ticket-buying customers, each of whom will pay $195 to $280 for entrance to a patch of Nevada desert called Black Rock City. And Harvey's ex-partner is suing him for either a cut of the festival's worth or an agreement to turn over the Burning Man trademark "to the public domain." In art circles and around the blogosphere, Burners are asking: Is this famously anti-monetary event getting ruined by too much cash?

In general, questions about Burning Man's profit margins are being raised because a festival ticket offers few amenities beyond portable toilets and emergency medical attention. To survive the desert conditions, festival goers must bring food, water and shelter, ranging from high-end RVs to simple tents.

All the hippies swear blind its not about the money, but the organisers take $10 million dollars in ticket sales, and only paid out around $90,000 in grants, the company is NOT a nonprofit organisation, they take the cash from tickets paid into the profit making arm and feed some of that cash out into its own Non profit 'parts' of the company, no one has ever said that burning man doesn't make a profit.

Harvey and his colleagues argue that Burning Man is just experiencing the growing pains of any successful entity. He said 2006 was the first year the corporation that runs Burning Man, Black Rock City LLC, made "a decent profit," a sum he put at $600,000. A combination of record ticket sales and a more efficient business helped create what he called "the nest egg we needed." The profit, he said, will go back into the company.

Some of it will also go to the festival's nonprofit arm, the Black Rock Arts Foundation. The charitable organization, which was founded in 2001 after Harvey loaned it $30,000 in cash according to tax documents, is dedicated to providing grants to artists who "promote and support community-based interactive art."

But in an analysis of the organization's tax filings by Charity Navigator, a New Jersey-based nonprofit watchdog group, the Black Rock Arts Foundation earned an "exceptionally poor" rating. The analyst found errors in reporting, a low revenue-to-grant ratio that showed artists receive on average 27 cents for every $1 spent - less than half the industry standard - and a conflict of interest involving David Best, a local artist best known for his intricate temples that rise at Burning Man.

According to nonprofit consultants, artists who applied to Black Rock for grants that year had no idea a director was also eligible for funding. "Even if he recused himself, it doesn't look good for a board member to benefit from an organization he's a part of," said Ken Goldstein, a South Bay nonprofit consultant. "The other donors are expecting there's a fair process for doling out the grants."

Six other artists received grants that year, but Best's was more than twice as much as any other recipient got.

From article in2004

Harvey, who described Burning Man as an "anti-recessionary phenomenon," is hardly against capitalism. Burning Man is not a non-profit -- it's held under Black Rock City Limited Liability Corp. (Black Rock City being the name of the temporary location where Burning Man takes place) with full-time employees and lawyers.

The thing Harvey hates is capitalism at the expense of all else -- art, community and intellectual growth. According to the financial summary posted on the organization's Web site, Burning Man generated $444,571 in profits last year (2004)


He said 2006 was the first year the corporation made "a decent profit," not the first year to make a profit, but the first to make a decent PROFIT, a pure profit of $600,000, 2004 they made $444,571, and every year between 2001 and 2005 it generated at least $300,000 but paid out a mere $82,000.

I know all the burning man people will jump up and argue, it goes in grants etc... like the artists grants, another contentious issue when people like David Best (on the board of directors since 2004) was getting paid $25,200 in grants for his projects in 2007! even when the total grants awarded was only $82,307.

He's just a clever guy, he says he hates is capitalism at the expense of all else -- art, community and intellectual growth... but on the flip side runs a festival that generates millions and doesn't pay performing artists a penny, pays out grants at a fraction of the revenue generated and even then a quarter of which was to its own director.... I'd call the statement 'he says he hates is capitalism at the expense of all else -- art, community and intellectual growth' the most hypocritical point of view I've ever heard :)

Yep its all so anti capitalism :)
so yes do it for the love, but don't say Burning man couldn't in truth pay performers something, or they are so white they don't even have money for a poor little vj boo hoo,

$10 million in revenue, $600,000 in profits, directors of the company getting grants double that awarded to any independent artist, and the Black Rock Arts Foundation labeled as "exceptionally poor" paying less than half the industry standard in terms of revenue-to-grant ratio,

There aren't even any figures on what Larry Harvey makes himself, but thought to be in the millions.... they brand all the 'good work' and 'giving back statements' in terms of the Black Rock Arts Foundation, but thats the charitable arm of the company... the actual company that runs the festival makes real profit.

[stickygreen]

all I know is I paid $210US for a ticket, for that money I get

- a few miles of road system laid out and marked in the middle of nowhere.
- Local, State, and Federal police looking out for my safety.
- Medical service, that is extremely prepared. and I have full confidence in the BM medic volunteers and there ability's
- I also get a HUGE effigy of a man in the center of everything so I can navigate during the week, and enjoy watching it burn on saturday night.
- Plus a very large area called center camp that provides a communal meeting space, shade, and small stages for performers.
- I also get ICE, that's right, I get the facilities that provide frozen water in the middle of the desert!
- oh and the last and most important thing of all, I get somewhere to shit! BM provides, included in my ticket price a nice, and cleaned daily, porta potty, in handy locations all around the festival site, that happens to be in the middle of fuckin nowhere! oh, and did I mention it's a desert as well.... whens the last time you saw a clean and stocked porta crapper in the middle of a desert?

they might make shit tones of money, but I tell you what for my $210 I am happy just getting the porta shitter, the rest of the stuff they provide me with is all just icing on the cake...

[stickygreen]

Are you suggesting that Fatboy Slim pays his own travel costs to play at Burning Man for free?

yes. go ahead and send him a message, ask him? post the reply please...

[deepvisual]

its America's version of a free festival.
which is why it isn't free.
The whole place was founded on theft and greed, why should BM be any different.

it would be far more authentic if they burnt money.
Where's the KLF when you need them...

[PCProject]

yes. go ahead and send him a message, ask him? post the reply please...

I just take the view that if the airfare is paid for you to be enabled to do something then that should be considered as part of any payment.
Maybe it is just me and my own daft morals.

[stickygreen]

I just take the view that if the airfare is paid for you to be enabled to do something then that should be considered as part of any payment.
Maybe it is just me and my own daft morals.

as a person who has ties with a few of the largest sound camps at BM, i can assure you that none of the sound camps pay for any travel expenses for there big headliners. I know this, as it's been stated to me on more than one occasion directly from the guys holding the money, for there respected camps. Also I can assure you that BM dosn't give a fuck if DJ whoever shows up or not, if you think BM is all about that, then your wrong, go check it out, before you flame it.....

[PCProject]

To be honest BM holds no interest for me either as an attendee or participant.
Preachers preaching to the already converted doesnt stimulate me in anyway.
I wasnt flaming anything either as I really thought I was asking a serious (nay incredulous) question about Norman Cook paying his own way to play there.

[stickygreen]

no flaming was intended just a well placed Pun, I am wanting to put what I know out there.

also this is the error in your assumption regarding BM either as an attendee or participant.
there is no difference between an attendee or a participant, everyone is a participant.. well except for a few frat boys,and Rock star wannabee's but for the most part, I'd say 90% of the people in the black rock desert "get it"

[PCProject]

You hope that they get it - they have paid to get it after all!

Pseudo enlightenment with hippies congratulating themselves on their own consumptive habits. Not the sort of place I would want to hang out and not the sort of people I would want to hang out with.

[fata alex]

I can't believe people are ok with providing their time, love, skill and equipment to an event at their own cost when the people in charge of the event are raking in millions.
That seems absolutely mental, no matter how much enlightenment the event can bring to the human race, its clearly built on a lie.

I was really hoping to get to go to burning man at some point over the next few years, either performing or just going to take it all in, but this has really put me off.

Since I first heard that most crew and performers buy their own ticket, and knowing how many tickets they sell and at what price, i had had a sneeky suspicion something was a miss for a while, but now its pretty clear as day.

Unfortunately I cant see myself wanting to partake in it now, which is a big shame as it looks like an incredible party, but i just couldnt bring myself to give my money to such an absolute cunt of a man.
How anyone can justify creating an event which clearly presents itself as a non-profit and is built on very liberal ideals of sharing and community and etc etc, and then quietly take home millions in profit while expecting people to work themselves and their hard-earned equipment to the bone for nothing is beyond me.

Im not a big fan of capitalism, but i've got nothing against people who set out to make money, its fair enough, its how the world works these days. But this Harvey guy is just taking the piss and being down right exploitative, taking advantage of well meaning hippies.

I hope all you visualists who i've seen discuss on these boards over the last few years how much kit you've taken to BM and lost to the desert have been compensated for it. And if not then I seriously you hope won't partake in it again until the event is reworked as a genuine non-profit or profit-share, or FREE event.

crikey, sorry for the rant, i didn't realise how much this had pissed me off until after i clicked 'reply'

[deepvisual]

sadly this is all par for the course.

archaos circus, glastonbury, Cirque du Soleil, they all thrive on people's goodwill while the guys at the top go home in a limo.
of course, without these parasites, there would be nothing, so in one respect it's the lesser of two evils.
truth is we dont have to pay someone else for permission to be nice to each other.
me, I've never been the same since those 8 tabs at stonehenge.

[fata alex]

sadly this is all par for the course.

archaos circus, glastonbury, Cirque du Soleil, they all thrive on people's goodwill while the guys at the top go home in a limo.
of course, without these parasites, there would be nothing, so in one respect it's the lesser of two evils.
truth is we dont have to pay someone else for permission to be nice to each other.
me, I've never been the same since those 8 tabs at stonehenge.

Well i've never heard of archaos circus, but as to those others, I don't think many people involved are under the impression that its not a commercial enterprise. The acts in circue du soleil do not have to pay for their own travel on tour, or buy tickets to each performance. And all the people that play for free at glatonbury are well aware they are being exploited (perhaps an exageration in many examples there), but are in turn hoping to exploit that opportunity for themselves and get more gigs out of it.
I don't think BM is a hotbed for talent scouts and since nothing is billed its hard for anyone to really use it as a springboard for other gigs (so my understanding goes) other than being able to say 'i've played at burning man' there seems little pay back for artists.

It just seems a lot more dishonest than the majority of exploitative entertainment industries/events out there

[deepvisual]

well, back at the start all of these were 'anarchic' - until the cash kicked in of course.

[evomedia]

I personally don't have a problem with festival organisers making money from their events, its a vast amount of work and a huge number of legal hoops they have to jump through... plus its an enormous risk (as many failed festies demonstrate all too well)

Its burning man in particular that always grates,

Burners are being led a merry dance these days, the festival is now a massive cash cow, ticket prices have risen, the numbers have grown, and the man behind it has made subtle changes to his view, as my previous post quoted 'He's not anti capitalism, he just hates capitalism at the expense of all else -- art, community and intellectual growth' a viewpoint that although hardcore burners may agree with, does little to help with the total hypocrisy of the statement, how can any festival with the ethos 'were against capitalism if its at the expense of art', be generating $10 in ticket sales, making half million profits and the only people not paid are the artists lol, How can making artists pay to play be anti capitalism lol

As I said I have no problems with BM making money, its just the ethos has began to smell a little bit fishy.

[stickygreen]

OMG you guys need to stop listening to hearsay and rumor, One of the most important principles of BM is Radical Self reliance, don't take other peoples word as to what the financial situation of an event is, find out for yourself, and make your opinion on based upon your own research. But I guess I'll be nice and guide you in the right direction..

here is the expenses list for last years Burn : http://afterburn.burningman.com/09/financial_chart.html


AFTERBURN REPORT 2009 FINANCIAL CHART
2009 Cash Expenditures

Amount

Event-related expenditures:
BLM and other usage fees
1,017,000
Rental Equipment (heavy machinery, portable buildings, staff radio gear, cars and trucks)
694,000
Toilets (and related costs)
661,000
Honoraria provided to artists
362,000
Local Agencies (County law enforcement, Paiute Nation, Nevada Highway Patrol)
304,000
Materials and Supplies (shade structures, signage, lighting, décor, cleaning supplies, photography, archiving)
104,000
Cost of Goods for Ice, Café and Merch sales
273,000
Watering for dust abatement (equipment rental, contractor services)
214,000
Ticket sales/processing/printing fees paid to outside ticketing firm
349,000
The Man and Platform (materials, pyrotechnics, technicians, labor)
106,000
Medical Services and Supplies
237,000
Fire Safety
159,000
Fuel
163,000
Small Equipment and Tools (including radio comm equip, safety & signage)
63,000
Printing (newsletter, survival guide, gate materials, postcards, stickers)
79,000
Vehicles (registration, repair, and maintenance)
107,000
Equipment Repairs, Maintenance, Cleaning
14,000
Costumes / Uniforms
27,000
Fees, Agency permits, royalties, Damages & Losses
91,000
Total event-related expenditures
5,024,000

Expense Categories that include both Event-related and Organizational:
Payroll
2,858,000
Outside Services: Independent contractors
161,000
Insurance (property, liability, workers comp, vehicle)
491,000
Tax and Licenses (state and federal, payroll, misc)
919,000
Meals and Food (meetings, playa commissary, non travel)
639,000
Total Expense Categories that include both Event-related and Organizational
5,068,000

Total Outreach Expenses - Off-Playa Events, Regionals, Other
88,000

Year-round Expenditures of the Managing Corporation:
Outside Services (legal, consultants, accounting)
1,274,000
Facilities Rent
167,000
Travel (airfare, mileage reimbursements, food while traveling, accommodations for meetings, agency relations, public relations, training, etc)
147,000
Office and Computer Supplies
126,000
Utilities (San Francisco and Nevada)
79,000
Donations to local Nevada schools and organizations
156,000
Postage
44,000
Internet (hosting fees, POP accounts, high speed line)
55,000
Telephone (San Francisco and Nevada Offices, reimbursements, conference calls)
44,000
Shipping / Freight
10,000
Gifts, Promotions
30,000
Education and Training
3,000
Interest
2,000


Total year-round Expenditures of the Managing Corporation
2,137,000

Expenditures for Fixed Assets:
Vehicles
34,000
Computers and Electronics (including radio equipment)
90,000
Machinery and Equipment
29,000
Trailers and Portable Buildings
28,000
Land and Building Improvements
54,000
Furniture and Fixtures
1,000
Total Expenditures for Fixed Assets
236,000


Total Expenditures - 2009
12,317,000
and here is the ticket structure for this years event:
http://tickets.burningman.com/


First Level: SOLD OUT
9,000 tickets will be available for $210 each, while supplies last.


Limit 2 tickets per person
Available through the Internet sales ONLY

Second Level: SOLD OUT online
9,000 tickets will be available for $240 each, while supplies last.


Limit 2 tickets per person
Available through the Internet sales and Mail Order

Third Level: SOLD OUT online
9,000 tickets will be available for $280 each, while supplies last, or until 3/31/10, whichever comes first.


Available through Mail Order (cashier's check or money order ONLY - NO CHECKS)
Also available through Internet Sales

Fourth Level:
tickets are $300, while supplies last


Available through the Internet Sales.
Available through Mail Order. Absolutely No Mail Order sales postmarked after 6/30/10.
Available through Walk-in Outlets from 4/1/10 through 8/28/10.

also please consider when calculating income from tickets there are a number of gift tickets that are given to volunteers that work way harder than some lazy ass VJ with his lappy...

I'll even add it up for you....

$210 x 9000 = 1,890,000
$240 x 9000 = 2,160,000
$280 x 9000 = 2,520,000
$300 x 20,000 = 6,000,000
_________
$12,570,000
with a total expected attendance of paid participants 47,000 ( this would be the biggest year ever) if my prediction is correct.


and don't ever call me a hippie!

[deepvisual]

Ticket sales/processing/printing fees paid to outside ticketing firm
349,000

yeah, but do you really really think it cost a third of a million dollars to print a few thousand tickets..
bullshit!.
and again, a quarter of a million for water.. ??
something is very very wrong here..

[PCProject]

Cost of Goods for Ice, Café and Merch sales 273,000

That suggests they are sold for profit - your figures dont include the profits the sale of these goods would bring and that the 273k is an expenditure that is recoverable

Im not even an accountant and can pick that up!

[stickygreen]

yeah, but do you really really think it cost a third of a million dollars to print a few thousand tickets..
bullshit!.

oh, now were going to knit pick on the line items...

this refers to the contract to a On-line ticketing company that is used for participants to purchase there tickets. a very reasonable price to run a on-line ticketing system that gets hammered with 20,000 requests for tickets within the first few hours of being made available.

as per the water, you do know this is in the desert, right?

[deepvisual]

a very reasonable price to run a on-line ticketing system

well james, its around $10 a ticket, which is around ten times the usual fee for an online booking, which is usually paid by the buyer anyway.
as for the water, lets be generous and say each person needs 5 gallons per day,
30,000 x 5 x ( 5 days?) is $3 per gallon, which for something that costs nothing beyond transportation, is quite a big markup.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a huge accounting fiddle going on here as everything seems to cost top dollar, which is what you'd expect J-lo to pay, but not a bunch of hippies.
its the old non profit/ profit-sharing scam.
we didn't make a profit, because all the money has gone...

[PCProject]

Then why does it clearly state goods for sale when if what you are now saying is true makes the financial declaration a falsehood?
This isnt some quantum physics experiment where things can be different things at the same time.
You see for me all my scepticism and cynicism stems from things like this where stuff isnt black and white or cut and dried but a bit of this and a bit of that which only helps to muddy the waters of transparancy.
Im not having a down on you personally or your enthusiasm for the event but the way the figures are presented leaves room for questions. Thats why I am asking them.

[fata alex]

The fact that they have been given an 'exceptionally poor' rating by an independent watchdog on their ability to report their own accounts means im not hugely inclined to believe the figures they publish themselves.

They are a corporation clearing at least $600,000 in profit a year. With a non-profit wing that has been criticised by an independent watchdog. What more reason do you need to not take their own reported income and outgoings at face value?

I dont really want to argue about this, as i'd really like to believe the BM hype, as I said, i'd love to go, and hopefully I will do if they can convince me they aren't taking home millions in profit at the expense of hardworking good people. Where were your quotes taken from Evo?

(I wasn't using hippie as a slur, its generally a compliment when coming from me)

[evomedia]

stickygreen have you actually read that budget, I mean really read it... it hardly makes the debate any better. They seem like total crooks now I read that lol

Just read what it says...

They added $694,000 for equipement rental for the event, but $1,274,000 for facilities rental outside the festival? What the hell are they hiring that costs $1.2M thats just for day to day running of the management company? For a company that doesn't like consumerism thats one hell of a hire bill for day to day running. Thats not equipment, telephones or internet... talking of which

$44,000 for telephone calls?, if I were them I'd get a few mobiles with unlimited minutes for $60 a month lol.

Internet (hosting fees, POP accounts, high speed line) $55,000... $55,000 a year on internet hosting omg.... Regardless of anything else saying hosting and email accounts cost that is taking the piss.... Have you seen the website?.... F**k it I'll host it for $50,000 and save them some cash :) A nice fasthost account with unlimited pop3's, unlimited bandwidth is what $50 a month max :)

BM staff payroll figure $2,858,000 , so if everyones working for free thats one hell of a payroll... it doesn't even specify Larry's cut of that. The website says Along with Larry Harvey, the following 5 individuals are the members of Black Rock City LLC, the entity that takes responsibility for the management of Burning Man. There are only 6 senior staff alot of office staff and a ton of volunteers who get paid nothing, Amazing how they can pay themselves well enough

All I said in my previous post was in 2007 they did post PROFITS of $600k+, 2004 was $450k, thats what they themselves said, but that would be on top of expeniture outlined here lol, they aren't exactly living like hermits,

Sticky.... also remember reading the expenditure doesn't mean they dont make profits, most festival make a massive chunk off drinks stalls etc who pay licenses to sell onsite, then buying vehicles for the event end up as assets with the company. They are already taking salaries, and adding vast figures for wierd stuff thats not even in the profit figures...

Add it up, 2,137,000 on running the management company, 2,858,000 on payrole, 236,000 on assets they bought,

Thats $5,000,000 on running the company, nearly 3 million of which was payroll, and that's not questioning the water :)

Honoraria provided to artists $362,000

hon·o·rar·i·um (n-râr-m)
n. pl. hon·o·rar·i·ums or hon·o·rar·i·a (--)
A payment given to a professional person for services for which fees are not legally or traditionally required.

Thats nearly $400k that IS being paid to individuals over 1 weekend.... but no-one apparently takes any money? then there are the grants paid out by the non profit arm, as i Stated in 2007 a director took a quarter of grant for his own projects, I don't know many companies that pay their employee over $25,000 to build their own art on top of their salary.

As you yourself stated the tickets sales in 2009 were $12,570,000, in 2007 they only had $10m and made 600k profit after paying all the expenditure, so they are even generating 2.5 million above what they took in 2007, but you expect them to make less money? Add to that they must have a far amount of equipment that can be resued year on year.

I did say I have no problem with anyone making cash, but expecting only the artists to, not only work for nothing, but actually pay to be there IS hypocritical

Previous sources were
http://articles.sfgate.com/2007-08-19/news/17258805_1_black-rock-arts-foundation-burning-charity-navigator
http://www.seattlepi.com/lifestyle/176752_nwburningman.html

The only reason this debate started was because someone was flamed for saying burning man makes a profit...

In fact, burning man has yet to turn a profit and the only assets they have aquired from their ticket sales has been a 30 acre parcel of land outside gerlach NV to store things. So before you diss it, get your facts straight. Once again, I did post this in the No/ Low Pay Jobs. I understand people need to make money, however thats just not what happens at the largest no trace arts festival in the world. Everyone does it for the art, not the money

Thats obviously not true, never was true, so I dont see the point in argueing when everything obviously states they do make profit, even if the expediture was honest, and we ignore the salaries, and purely take the ticket sales minus expenditure in 2009 then its still around $236,000 pure profit in 2009, Thats based on your figures sticky with no questioning... it was 600k in 2007 as said by BM...it was 444k in 2004 as said by BM...thats after paying everyone and adding more assets to the company, they already own 2 buildings in two cities plus the land and lots of assets.

So whats the point defending an argument that never held water.

[vjinfinight]

Hello all!

I would like to thank the artists who DID apply for our camp this year.

Thanks to stickygreen, who actually does have his facts straight and who understands the way the sound camps at BM really work.

When I said that none of our artists get travel expenses reimbursed, I meant it. Including Norman Cook.

We hope you can make it out to our project this fall and witness "The Tower Of Babel"

If your around, feel free to come say hello,

We will be hard to miss.

Infinight
:nod::nod::nod:

[evomedia]

Glad you found a crew, it's the people who attend festies are often the people who keep the spirit and live the ethos. And thats a great thing.

I hope you can at least accept that burning man does make profits though, there is no point sticking you head in the sand over that... its been said by the BM management on many occasions,

At some point BM will have to address this, the cash it generates these days is putting some of that ethos to the test, they make cash but tell everyone else its not about the money, its a very difficult situation when anti capitalists start making big money

Every year glastonbury has the same problems, accusations of selling out, that its become commercialized, but die hard fans always defend it to the end, that because its people that make festivals, but the organizers always have to become businessmen, how else would they manage otherwise when dealing with multimillion pound budgets.

Just enjoy your exploitation :) joking! Festies are fun but I've never be under any illusions they have to be businesses these days to survive. Spending millions in advance and only retrieve it if its successful will always require a degree of business acumen.

[devonmiles]

when an event organizer decides that artists doesnt get payment or expenses covered, its totally legit, even if he makes big bucks. everybody is free to exploit themselves and fill someone elses pockets.
question such a decision is legit too.
we already had this discussion with Rocket festival, Kazantip and Avit.
Sleepytom explained, how Rocket festival is run. the organizers are able to supply all the visuals but decided to to invite fellow VJs.
those who want to perform are seen as guests, like with a birthday party, you are invited to come and have fun, play a bit and relax most of the time. no one gets paid contributing something to a birthday party.

at Kazantip most of the performers dont get payment.
travel expenses are covered and top notch accomodation is provided. you get taxi service to and from the airport, some cash for food and drinks, a Ticket for the whole Event, worth 300 bucks, access to the VIP area with superb toilets, help with buying drugs at reasonable prices and some other amenities. this is in the middle of nowhere, like black rock desert.
a few people make a fair amount of cash from this event but everybody is fine with it.

Avit was a VJs grassroots event and the organizers tried to offer some funding for travel and accomodation. this did not always worked out due to difficulties with public and private funding institutions but it was always common sense, that there should be some kind of support for the comtributing artists.
avit birmingham offered decent funding for traxel espenses and equipement hire, small fees for live performances, provided accomodation for those, who gave lectures and workshops.
the berlin avits offered at least accomodation, anything beyond was difficult because of the incorporation in the CCC congress event.
everybody was fine with it, because we wanted to bring the VJ idea to the next level, enable people from different cities and countries to connect, gather information and learn from each other.
people paid for travel and food but at the end everybody got a rich source of valuable information, inspiration and knowledge, that would be hard to aquire solely from the web or other sources.

I think, whilst we can respect the decision of Burning man, not to offer any cash, we are allowed to suggest ways of having this changed in the future.
many really good artists will never be able to come to burning man on their own expenses and funding these would enrich the festival for sure.
raising the ticket price by one dollar would bring enough revenue to have 20 VJs performing with top equipment (and burning all the gear afterwards).

that there seems to be some number fiddling behind the scenes is anther point. if its true then, yeah, harvey wouldn´t be the first promoter corrupted by big bucks and its a shame but its never too late to change directions.

[stickygreen]

stickygreen have you actually read that budget, I mean really read it... it hardly makes the debate any better. They seem like total crooks now I read that lol



- First of all, burning man has no commercial vending, and only sells 50,000 tickets at max every year. That being said, burning man does give out $500,000 of this money to art grants like you mention, however, no sound camps recieve grants whatsoever. None of our artists performing this year (including Fatboy Slim, The Crystal Method, DJ Dan, Mochipet, Bassnectar, Freq Nasty, ......and more) recieve payment or comp tickets. Since Burning Man is a completely no trace event, hakf of your ticket cost goes to the portapotties alone, not to mention BLM fees, etc) In fact, burning man has yet to turn a profit and the only assets they have aquired from their ticket sales has been a 30 acre parcel of land outside gerlach NV to store things.

So before you diss it, get your facts straight. Once again, I did post this in the No/ Low Pay Jobs. I understand people need to make money, however thats just not what happens at the largest no trace arts festival in the world. Everyone does it for the art, not the money :)




Thats obviously not true, never was true, so I dont see the point in argueing when everything obviously states they do make profit, even if the expediture was honest, and we ignore the salaries, and purely take the ticket sales minus expenditure in 2009 then its still around $236,000 pure profit in 2009, Thats based on your figures sticky with no questioning... it was 600k in 2007 as said by BM...it was 444k in 2004 as said by BM...thats after paying everyone and adding more assets to the company, they already own 2 buildings in two cities plus the land and lots of assets.

So whats the point defending an argument that never held water.

EVO you better check your post, cause quoting someone else when replying to me, is not cool. I never said it's non-profit

you have no idea about BM, first off it's not a weekend, it's a week, and there is people on site for months prior and after the event. There are no drink stands, in fact there is no royalties of any kind paid by anyone to be there... really don't comment on stuff you know nothing about, cause your assumptions do all the talking for you. I never said they are non profit, all I did was point out what I get for my entrance price, and I also provided facts and figures, such as the budget, and a link to the current ticket price structure

well james, its around $10 a ticket, which is around ten times the usual fee for an online booking, which is usually paid by the buyer anyway.
as for the water, lets be generous and say each person needs 5 gallons per day,
30,000 x 5 x ( 5 days?) is $3 per gallon, which for something that costs nothing beyond transportation, is quite a big markup.





oh, and since i'm the one giving all the BM info, DV the budget line item for water is not for participants to drink.... ( you guys have no clue....) the majority of it is for watering the roads with, in an effort to keep down the dust and mitigate the erosion on the natural environment the roads are watered by a small army of tanker trucks every day. i have no idea how much water is used thru the week, but it's a lot more than your estimate

oh, and remember this is in the desert... everything gets thrashed and ruined you bring out there, including all the equipment that is rented, and used at the event, plus travel time is a few hours each way for everything that is brought in, and out. Thus the "top dollar prices paid" nothing is left on site afterwards. the fedarl governing body BLM ( Bureau of land management) has continually recognized BM as having a extremely low impact on the environment after the festival is done, this is a key to the events success, and a cornerstone of it's founding principles.

If you don't want to go then stay home, but if you want to cite your assumption on-line then your not really benefiting anyone.

[deepvisual]

have a nice time james. I'm sure you will.
and dont take things so personally.
its not like its you we are talking about...

[vjinfinight]

No, it was me they are all talking about, and the funny thing is, Root Society has NOTHING to do with burning man.

We spend a LOAD of $$ just to throw the party. If you wanna join, come!

[stickygreen]

No, it was me they are all talking about, and the funny thing is, Root Society has NOTHING to do with burning man.

We spend a LOAD of $$ just to throw the party. If you wanna join, come!


very true. I estimated that Jefr and crew spend about $300,000 on there camp. pretty insane kind of cash to be throwing around in the name of fun... but if you've got it, why not....

oh, and befor anyone goes on about that money. these guys all pay to be there, just like everyone else..

[RayV]

No, it was me they are all talking about, and the funny thing is, Root Society has NOTHING to do with burning man.

We spend a LOAD of $$ just to throw the party. If you wanna join, come!

i just simply wish i could make it. one day.
and. i really like your spirit.
Have fun guyz, I'm sure you will !
it's defo. sounds like you well know how to :D
====
One thing to all the rest of my beloved friends[!] here,
keeping the balance for others and the ever bitter vjf spirit: :violin:

have a great summer holidays, sounds like its well overdue :jump:

[VJMC]

Hello fellow Burner Brothers and sisters..
My name is VJ Static...www.vjstatic.com

ironically was planning on passing by root society this year fom one of our art cars and blow up your domes hahaha...
but would love to get involved with a plan :)

I'll be camping with Disorient at 3:15 and the esplanade... I'm going to do some video mapping with ANIMUS and tehir honeycomb structure but would love to work with you guys too...

Hit me up
static@vjstatic.com
www.vjstatic.com
www.vorpalvisions.com (under construction)

MUCH LIGHT AND MANY LUMENS
VJ STATIC

[Architects of Tomorrow]

YouTube- Family guy (Wheres My money)

[tdog]

No, it was me they are all talking about, and the funny thing is, Root Society has NOTHING to do with burning man.


Hello everyone, Root Societys looking for VJs to perform with us at Burning Man 2010.

?

interesting thread though.....

tdog

[KillingFrenzy]

I was hoping that the "Low/No Pay" jobs thread would end this sort of round and round debate. If someone is clear in their request that it is a no compensation event, then please pester them with a personal message about compensation, or just stay away. People wiser and with more facts have had this same debate. This sort of public airing of subjective justifications for and against an event just wastes everyone's time and changes nobody's opinion.
I'm still not sure if I'm going this year, but if I do, the offer to basically bring only the creative part of my gear and use other people's infrastructure is very generous. People are complaining about the exploitive nature of the event. There's also a lot of receiving going on. I'll be providing a couple of VJ sets. I'll be receiving a massive fireworks display, random drinks and food from strangers, live music, performance, djs, vjs and interesting exhibits of new technology. Moreso, the thing goes on so long it won't be the usual situation of playing the night away and missing the party itself. I get sick of the Agitprop and have stayed away for years because I've had "better things to do" with my time and money. Still, there are better things to do with your time and money then go to the Louvre, or Amsterdam, or basically ANY big festival event that any of us perform at.
As to the Norman Cook thing, he's sort of like renting a big showy laser for your stage. When you get to that level you cease to operate withouti tinerant costs. Anyone who isn't a name draw headliner who expects to be dealt with the same way should prepare to be constantly disappointed. Just be happy to not be constantly managed, budgeted and accounted at every step.

[RayV]

shame there's aint this f@$%ing like button to posts here, coz you defo got my like KF
:)

[FB taking over the world conspiracy #706,878,532,9] (http://petewarden.typepad.com/searchbrowser/2010/04/how-i-got-sued-by-facebook.html)

[deepvisual]

lets get a few things straight here.

I for one have not been saying that all people who go to burning man are in league with the devil.
anyone who wants to go, including roots society, well thats fine by me. I can see very little difference between this and lots of other paying festivals, where everyone participates.

However, there is probably a large swindle going on in the upper echelons of the BM organisation and that is what is being talked about and quite rightly so.

[fata alex]

Yes, I also want to clarify that I have nothing but respect and appreciation (and as much as is possible towards someone you've never met, much love :D) for all the crews that make BM happen, its the senior management who look a bit dodgy to me.
Actually, ok, along with the respect and appreciation, I also have a small amount of disbelief that none of you are bothered by the fact that you are putting in thousands of your own dollars to make the party happen when the people at the top are raking in millions. That seems a little odd to me, but I imagine its somewhat a denial mechanism because you are so attached to BM (understandably) and have already invested so much of yourselves into it.

I hope that over time, the truth will come out, and either we'll be proven wrong and find that those millions are actually being put back into something altruistic, or everyone involved will stand up and say 'we are not going to be taken advantage of anymore, please charge less for the festival, or start paying people, or at least dont make us buy our own ticket...'

Deep, what other events do you see as being so similar to this, I cant think of any others that claim to be non-profit while making a huge profit, and expect their performers to not only work and travel without compensation but also actually buy their own ticket to the event

[sleepytom]

I used to want to go to burningman
then i met some "burners"
now i would rather be sick through my eyes than attend BM.

I don't know what is worse really the big bosses of BM making a massive profit from the festival or the thousands of silicon valley weekend hippies who'll physically beat you up for criticising, or even questioning the events organisational structure.

If I own a load of motorolla 300s then I can have a slice of the hire budget for radios.
If i own a video projector or sound system (which will get damaged and require expensive servicing or replacement) then i'm expected to bring it for free?

Basically my assessment is that BM is a playground for rich kids. The Burners will expect everyone to bring their "toys" to the party, but strangely they don't seem to manage to convince people who have "toys" such portacabins, toilets or other festival infrastructure that they should provide these things for free.

Maybe that is because NOBODY owns a portacabin for a laugh. The guy with the loos didn't buy them for fun. These people clearly run businesses and need to charge for their services. They are not idiots and will not subsidise the rich kid burners party out of their business funds.

Anyone who is willing to take sound / lighting / video kit to burning man for free, is clearly an idiot, or a rich kid who doesn't care about losing their toys.

I have no respect for such people. end of..

[SteveG]

And what do most UK VJ's do at most UK festivals. First thing I'm normally asked is...."what can you do for us" :rolleyes: My reply is normally well, I do visuals :D

Over here we accept a couple of tickets and some free cold and greasy food, a payment which doesn't cover your petrol or train fare....meanwhile the employers, promoters, stage managers hand out freebies...of all descriptions to their hangers on and favorites possibly using the cash saved on your fee.

Glastonbury, millions for charity.....would fair pay (not silly money)make such an impact. Do they not realise that most of us do charity work throughout the year, not just one event...their event.

Govt and local business wanted Glasto to continue...should they be ensuring were paid then as they too are making huge profit.

UK festivals and events are just as corrupt. The phrase smell the roses springs to mind here.

[deepvisual]

Deep, what other events do you see as being so similar to this, I cant think of any others that claim to be non-profit while making a huge profit,

not another festival, perhaps, but there have been plenty of scams using the charity/no profit model.

one that springs to mind is the charity for kurds concert at wembley run by jeffrey archer, supposedly raising £56m for charity, while almost nothing made it to the kurds (http://politicalscrapbook.net/2010/06/the-new-tory-mp-jeffrey-archer-and-the-missing-charity-millions/)

Archaos circus was another con, many of the performers working for free for this 'anarchist' circus, while the organisers banked millions.

[beatfix]

Burning Man is full of contradictions, no doubt. The history of the festival is quite interesting when you dig into it, and there's no question that a certain amount of mythmaking has filled the gaps as the event has transitioned from an anything-goes anarcho-fest into a professionally run business.

That said, it's still pretty unique as such things go, and worth seeing up close at least once.

I've impulsively made the decision to go again this year, after being fairly sure I would sit it out. It will be my 8th trip. The place has a strong pull for a lot of people, for a variety of reasons.

As to the questions of exploitation, I go in with my eyes open - I bring only what I'm comfortable with, and leave the really fancy gear at home. One thing I will say, is that I've never seen a larger, more receptive audience to just about any weird artistic idea a person can come up with. That alone is pretty intoxicating.

As for large sound camps like Root Society etc. - I've VJ'ed at Opulent Temple (the other really big sound camp) twice, and it was a mixed bag. Like any other gig, you need to know what you want, and assert that, and if you can't get it, be willing to walk away. In some places that means $, at the Burn, to me, it's more about creative freedom.

Specifically, I'm not a huge fan of being required to flash superstar DJ names on the screens every five minutes at a festival that is supposedly anti-commercial. But they have every right to set the ground rules in their camp, and it's up to me to either accept them, negotiate a compromise, or go elsewhere.

- j e f f

[dgraph]

these posts make me think of few things about burning man...

firstly they do support artists and yet somehow dj's/vj's don't seem to receive grants (at least from what i know). i wonder how many have actually applied though to. it seems like bm likes large scale sculptures the most. i know that at nexus we fundraise for ourselves and spend out of pocket. but really its about improvising and making it work.

i've always enjoyed the situation created by not having to spend money there, except on ice...mostly. as much as it takes to make it there personally, communally and the larger picture of the organization being able to eat, drink and play without a wallet for a week is brilliant.

i'd recommend everyone go at least once, its just such a spectacle with an amazing feeling that its hard to relate to anything else i've seen. i love it. and i love spending all the money i can in order to radically self express.

[sleepytom]

Glastonbury, millions for charity.....would fair pay (not silly money)make such an impact. Do they not realise that most of us do charity work throughout the year, not just one event...their event.

The one and only time you worked at glastonbury you got paid pretty fairly, your day rate was similar to the rate the stage manager would be on. It was higher than lots of peoples (local crew, artists liaison etc etc). You agreed to work for that rate and afaik you received full payment as agreed. I wish you'd STFU about it now, as you just make yourself look silly, given that plenty of people here work at glastonbury and some of them are very well paid for what they do there.

The charity donations that glastonbury makes are mainly from stewards, bar staff etc.. people volunteer to work a few stewards / bar shifts, in exchange they get a free ticket in and their wages are donated to charity.

glastonbury pays the vast majority of its staff, it certainly doesn't make all staff buy tickets to get into the event, nor do the organisers of the dance village (or whatever area) have to pay for the privilege of organising one of the areas. (on the contrary glastonbury pays them to organise one of the areas)

BM is totally different to Glastonbury.

[SteveG]

I don't know what you've been told about any financial arrangement but that is utter rubbish Tom. If you want I'll send you the arrangement or publish it, including what I personally supplied and was not paid for, with no further offer, all for the good and benefit of the show....as we all know the show must go on etc etc :rolleyes: The issues I had after the event and why I feel now it is so unfair not to pay performers, ie VJ's with a fair daily rate. Having done Glastonbury to see it and experience it for myself I can now comment as before I could not. If they decide like me to try it themselves all well and good. I commented as I feel some people see these UK festivals as being squeaky clean and free of similar corruption...that they're not. I you think that makes me look silly fine.
Please don't insult me by saying I should have negotiated rates for equipment hire, when so called world famous acts that turn up minutes before performance without certain vital basic kit, or missing and broken kit I'll try to make it work, that's professionalism Tom, not arguing at the time for the sake of a further few quid.
BM is not totally different from any other festival in that people are taking the pi$$.

[Pesh]

Please don't insult me by saying I should have negotiated rates for equipment hire, when so called world famous acts that turn up minutes before performance without certain vital basic kit, or missing and broken kit I'll try to make it work, that's professionalism Tom, not arguing at the time for the sake of a further few quid.
but if you cared about getting paid for the kit you chose to bring along as extras, and you obviously do seeing as you're still upset about it several years later, then you probably should have.

when XL Video get a call on site to say someones Hippos exploded they say 'no worries we've got a spare one here, this is what it will cost you.' they're pretty professional.

did the stage manager even know at the time that there was a problem with the act in question? they should be made aware of problems like this so there is some sort of contingency in place next time round.

suppling kit and services without agreeing a payment in advance will only make it harder to get them to pay for the gear they need to have to hand for these situations.

for what it's worth the area i ran the technical side of things for at Glastonbury last year had booked all the backup kit they needed and paid me well over my standard day rate, so i wouldn't accuse the entire festival of corruption just because you didn't get paid for a DVJ you weren't asked to supply.

[Pesh]

Over here we accept a couple of tickets and some free cold and greasy food, a payment which doesn't cover your petrol or train fare....
i don't, and nor do the people i normally end up working with.

Glastonbury, Big Chill, Bestival, Secret Garden Party, Creamfields, Gatecrasher, Wireless, Download, Reading, Leeds, Glade, Rockness and god knows how many others have all paid me my day rate for VJing or teching without quibbling.

i really don't think your one experience at a UK festival qualifies you to tell people to smell anything.

[stickygreen]

WOW how this thread has gone way off course....



firstly they do support artists and yet somehow dj's/vj's don't seem to receive grants (at least from what i know). i wonder how many have actually applied though to. it seems like bm likes large scale sculptures the most. i know that at nexus we fundraise for ourselves and spend out of pocket. but really its about improvising and making it work.



I had put this project together for this years burn : http://www.hypnopolis.org/

I know that I was considered for an art grant as I had some corespondence with the grant commitee regarding the project, after all was said and done, I dodn't get it, but really it was probably for the best as life got in the way, I bought a home, and family had some issues that needed attention. Anyway back in May I decided to shelve the project, maybe BM 2011.. i said to myself?

But my point is VJ's can get money from BMorg for there projects, BM just dosn't fund sound camps, as the entire intention of the festival is not to have a rave in the desert, even though that's what it has become for so many.

[SteveG]

i don't, and nor do the people i normally end up working with.

Glastonbury, Big Chill, Bestival, Secret Garden Party, Creamfields, Gatecrasher, Wireless, Download, Reading, Leeds, Glade, Rockness and god knows how many others have all paid me my day rate for VJing or teching without quibbling.

i really don't think your one experience at a UK festival qualifies you to tell people to smell anything.

Previous post:
for what it's worth the area i ran the technical side of things for at Glastonbury last year had booked all the backup kit they needed and paid me well over my standard day rate, so i wouldn't accuse the entire festival of corruption just because you didn't get paid for a DVJ you weren't asked to supply.


Firstly Pesh doing one or 10 events gives you the knowledge to comment on your observations and experience and that's all I've done.

My gripe was and is never about what I supplied and didn't get paid for...by the way it wasn't a DVJ or the V440 Edirol had kindly supplied. I mention it only as another contributing factor and the type of thing that isn't right. I rearranged my set up in order to supply. It was not extra kit but kit I had incorporated to make visiting VJ's change overs far easier.

Yes, stage manager and promoter were aware of the technical issue, the group/DJ's were on stage with the crowd chanting to stand on stage and haggle about the fee for what I and the other VJ were supplying and doing would have really unprofessional and in view of hundreds of people and crew.

I'm glad to hear that some get well paid. personally those I have spoken to, including guys from last years events all supplied more than they were actually being paid for in order to secure a decent fee for what they were actually doing.

Perhaps your daily rate would also disappoint me;)

I'm not saying the entire event has corruption at it's core, what I am saying is that VJ's are being taken a loan of as the individual promoters and employers know that there will always be a VJ or 2 stupid enough to fill the bill and get the job done.

I'm still pi$$ed off as certain individuals lied to me and promises were not fulfilled.

Most VJ teams I speak to or have spoken even recently to are offered between £75 and £150 and a ticket or 2 for the festival...all for 3-4 days on site, many hours of VJ'ing, supply of their own equipment, missed meals, damaged equipment etc etc etc. Is this really the best these festivals and Glastonbury in particular can do. For those that enjoy the event I'd say stuff the VJ'ing and buy your ticket...go and really enjoy the event.

[sleepytom]

weird - maybe you speak to the wrong people?

I know people who've been paid 100x what you quote there for providing kit* and visuals.

*providing kit doesn't mean bringing a V4! If you can pick it up on your own then it ain't worth much!!

If I book VJs for a festival then I expect to pay them between £100 - £200 per day. I prefer to have a range of VJs onsite and thus have different style of visuals. This could mean that I book 3 VJs and pay them each for one days VJing. I'd expect them to provide their own kit for doing their visuals (could be as little as a single laptop) If they insist on bringing a load of extra stuff then that is down to them, but i'm not going to pay them extra for it, unless i'm hiring a certain bit of kit from them that i need for a certain band or whatever. If the VJs all hang out in video world all weekend then I'm not to blame, they are free to go where ever they want when they are not VJing.

This could mean that someone brings a lot of equipment, spends all weekend in the tent by the video stuff and only gets £150. But this would be their choice. They equally could of turned up for their specific sets with just a laptop and spent the rest of the weekend sitting in a hot tub with naked hippies.

[SteveG]

Unless some people on this forum grow some balls, swallow their pride and become willing to talk about their experiences on these sort of issues it's always going to look like I'm the prat and the only moaner about these things or the one who's had problems when starting out. Grow some balls guys ffs :D
There are many on these forums experiencing similar.

As I've said via my PM Tom there was more to it than a few bits of kit. The secrecy between VJ's on rates and fees does not help the issue. What some find acceptable is totally unacceptable to others. Personally if your willing to abandon your gear and trust it in the hands of individuals you don't know or security that you perhaps are unsure of to sit naked with a load of hippies in a hot tub that's fine...not for me though.

Perhaps you or someone from Glastonbury would like to comment on why a reasonable fee like the one you quote is not offered for doing their event.

[sleepytom]

I can't speak on behalf of anyone at the dance village. I've never worked in the dance end of site.

I do know there are secure lockups for equipment at both dance east and west and that anyone performing is allowed to keep kit in these lockups where it is looked after by a production assistant. It is quite normal for kit to be stored in these lockups for the days when your not performing, and they are as secure as its possible to be on site.

If i go somewhere to VJ i don't bring a load of kit for whoever to use. I will take my own kit and use it for my show, everyone else should of done the same. The backbone video system should of been supplied by whoever did the install, i'd expect to have VDAs / Routers / Folsom Image Pros to handle all the incoming video (be it from VJs or touring bands or whatever) I'd expect there to be a technician supplied with the screens and other kit to help VJs get plugged into the system. If i was going to do a random VJing gig at a festival with people I didn't know I would supply a technical rider stating the type of input into the system that I needed. If i'm paid for X number of hours then i'll work for X number of hours. The rest of my time is my own and I will go and wander round looking at stuff, otherwise my "free ticket" seems a little pointless.


TBH dance has always skimped on the visuals, they like to employ people who are quite new to the game both to VJ and to provide the equipment. Consequently the installs have a tendency to be either too small to work in the big space, or to dim to be visible during daylight. I've never bother to try and get the job as i've assumed they don't want to spend enough money to do it properly.

Glastonbury is a nightmare of a gig anyway. Regardless of where your working it takes more effort than anything else you'll do over the summer. But it's also one of the best parties in the whole world. The key to a good glasto is to do as little work as possible, and get your work over and done with as soon as possible, then spend the rest of the event enjoying yourself with your friends. (fail for me this year, I did an hours worth of work, but it was on Sunday Night -so i was stressed for the whole festival even though i had just an hours work to do)

[sleepytom]

Another point is that if people keep going and doing the whole weekend for £150 then we will never progress. If you want people to respect you then don't work for peanuts.

[tdog]

I did an hours worth of work, but it was on Sunday Night -so i was stressed for the whole festival even though i had just an hours work to do)


tough being a diva, ain't it?

tdog

[SteveG]

Another point is that if people keep going and doing the whole weekend for £150 then we will never progress. If you want people to respect you then don't work for peanuts.

Well praise the lord...until this moment Tom you've always given the impression your in full support of what has been going on and the fees that were being offered to relatively new VJ's. I was stupid and over confident that I could do a decent enough job to perhaps get them to stick to their promises...wrong! Live and learn. I was invited back the following year and I refused....always another fool behind me....unless of course we discuss these issues on the forum.

So a call out for all VJ's to refuse the Dance Village work until fair fees are offered ;) After all they've checked and endorsed a VJ's work before you get to the stage of actually performing so there should be little question in the VJ's material.

[Kyle]

:-offtopic
you guys took a poo on this guys thread, say sorry and move on plz

[SteveG]

Fair point Kyle.... apologies ..... sorry ....movin on.

[PCProject]

Reading and god knows how many others have all paid me my day rate for VJing or teching without quibbling.



Funnily enough I am still owed £600 for last years Reading festival by somebody you and I know quite well.

Is BM a rip off then?

[sleepytom]

Well praise the lord...until this moment Tom you've always given the impression your in full support of what has been going on and the fees that were being offered to relatively new VJ's. I was stupid and over confident that I could do a decent enough job to perhaps get them to stick to their promises...wrong! Live and learn. I was invited back the following year and I refused....always another fool behind me....unless of course we discuss these issues on the forum.
true to a degree, though i had always thought that £150 was a one day payment. (they do seem to book enough VJs that you could each do one evening each for your fee rather than choosing to spend the whole weekend there) It was the Big Chill thread that cleared this up for me where joe say's the bloke (who nobody seems to want to name - i don't actually remember his name) boasts about booking VJs for £150 for the weekend.

This is the trouble with your name and shame approach, events out live their staff and things change over the years. If your going to name and shame don't say "Glastonbury pay is crap" or even "Dance Village pay is crap" tell us who actually booked you. (persons name + their company name)

Sorry for the off-topicness - though i think its one of the more idiotic rules of the internet is that conversations cannot evolve or expand from the point made by the original poster.

[sleepytom]

BTW try doing something in "Green Futures" if you want to see a really small budget! In the past they have payed less than £150 for venues that bring a crew of 20 with all their own equipment including marquees + renewable power generation...

[Kyle]

so what was the point made by the original poster? afaik its to look for talent for a low paid/no paid gig and now its a tossed salad of fuckall. can we just leave it at that? let this bloke have his thread and move all this other stuff to another spot. ffs who cares it's in a desert, if any person in their right mind will do their homework before going to BM they will realize the ups and downs of said event and if not it's their own fault. Let's lock this thread already

:lock:

[Pesh]

fair shout. should be in it's own thread...

for what it's worth Burning Man is the only festival i havent done yet that i really want to and would be well up for working there in some way, for free.

[psychomonkey]

If I book VJs for a festival then I expect to pay them between £100 - £200 per day. I prefer to have a range of VJs onsite and thus have different style of visuals. .

Stick me on the roster please Sleepy Tom.

I'D love to do the burning man festival, however can't seing the other half letting me pay for the flights and having a holiday in the dessert without her. Have fun Psycho Monkey

[Pesh]

my misses is as keen to go as i am and would go mental if i went without her ;)

[deepvisual]

fair shout. should be in it's own thread...

for what it's worth Burning Man is the only festival i havent done yet that i really want to and would be well up for working there in some way, for free.

that kind of attitude will get you nowhere - you have to pay to work for free at burning man!!!

[Pesh]

that kind of attitude will get you nowhere - you have to pay to work for free at burning man!!!
yeah, it'd be like working for PSL but with more nakedness and less drug use.