newbies vs old school

[unjulation]

I've been trawling the posts for a while and i'm comeing across a perticular aspect of peoples perception about what you should use within your set and what you shouldn't use based upon when you started V.J.'ing,
i.e. old scholl vs newbie
now people say that useing perticular visuals from well known sorces is a no no because every punter has seen it or every V.J. has done it to death.
now to me in it's most basic it's about a process that an indervidual goes through to find there own style
now because there is a finite amount of visuals out there to rip of compared to what a D.J. has acsess to it is only logical that indervidual V.J.'s all over the world will come across the same visuals time and again
does this make it wrong?
we also have to look at the perticular market/punters that your set is been seen by, how much visuals have they been exposed to in the first place within a club seting
by the very nature of clubs and their audiance it is been constantatly been renewed by new people from an new generation of clubers with new eyes and un-soild minds
(this is not to say you can repeat your set or infuances every few years or so, unless you realy are boring)
also this principle can be held up to the type of software or visual genarators that an indervidual use's within your set.
haveing been a visual artist for just over 15 years now but a computerised V.J. for only 3 there wil undoubtably be stuf that some would consider as old hat but as the V.J. market in this area is only justgoing throughits todler years, and has mainly been based upon 16mm projectors there is the space for the V.J. and the audiance to grow and develope together.
it's only reacently that clubs have started puting video projectors in as standerd in this area
'ee by gum it's grim up north ;)
so to me it's about the procsess that an indervidual V.J. goes through to define there own style.

[Amukidi]

because there is a finite amount of visuals out there to rip of compared to what a D.J. has acsess to it is only logical that indervidual V.J.'s all over the world will come across the same visuals time and again
does this make it wrong?

Well it would if that were true - but it's not - there are an infinite number of visuals out there, you've just got to make them. How much is a second-hand camcorder these days? peanuts. Make your own visuals and you'll never look back.

[unjulation]

mate if you read what i said i was spercificly talking about samperling visuals from outher sorces i'm sory if you misunderstod me personely i've been useing my own self created loops for years now ever since my first 16mm cammera, i was commenting upon a specific set up of a newbie and the way most get there first visuals to use for V.J.'ing

[Amukidi]

Fair comment mate and sorry if I mis-understood you! I still say, though, that newbies only ought to use other folks clips to get started and practise with, if they are worth their salt they should start building a library of clips from day one, else all they'll ever be is AV technicians.

[unjulation]

so would you say that a D.J. is an audio technician because all they do is play outher peoples music?
personaly i have no problem with useing riped visuals because to me the playing live situation is a very important and no mix is ever the same, well almost every mix :)
a lot of corse depends on the riped visuals and the mix that you make out of it but part of the atraction to me is takeing and twisting allready created visuals
subverting the known into some thing new

[Amukidi]

Yeah, I guess you could say that about many DJs, although the best ones I've worked with always seem to be musicians as well ( or first). There is also another type of DJ, who somehow has an intuitive ear, finding weird and wonderful choons that no-one else has heard, I regard these guys with much awe, they're like teachers. Point I'm trying to make is, that if a newbie comes along with some ideas / animations / films that they've somehow managed to make despite having no real kit, then we should be able to assume that there is potential there - ie, they are using the kit to make their ideas happen. I believe from the bottom of my heart that this sign of motivation is the key to success. Conversely, someone who has downloaded some software and clips, and has fun fooling around with them, may just be jerking off! (Remember how easy it is for anyone to get a great groove going with a drum machine and simple sequencer? But it takes creativity to actually REALLY come up with the goods. I've rambled on a bit - sorry, but I've seen one too many VJ dishing up Godfrey Regio clips with motion dive - and it just doesn't float my boat! Its no coincidence that whilst all his mates were out playing baseball, Stephen Spielberg was at home setting up traincrashes with his train-set and a super 8!

[vjklik]

I'd have to say that the more original your material, the better off you're going to be. I think the best DJ's spend hours each week trawling music stores looking for those rare presses or remixes that not everybody has. Having worked in a club for four years I've seen three different D.J.s, some of them well-known, use the same mix of a the same song used my the opening and house D.J.s. With visuals, I've seen people use "The Mind's Eye" and had to ask myself if the promoter was getting his money's worth. Would you be impressed visuals you could buy at Tower Records? Even if the guy was warping with software or a bank or transition on his or her MX-1... I think the the visuals guys who get the most props are the ones who find the rare videos, weird movies from the 20's and 30's that match with the music (you'd be amazed how well Betty Boop cartoons synch with techno) and then loop them just right with a chromakey of some other background material... I think if you can establish a style of your own you're in pretty good. But that tales time and practice.
I would consider myself old-school because 90 percent of what I put up on the screen came from the labor of my work on my machine. But I remember when I was accused of cheating from the old-schoolers from the sixties who used colors and oils and dyes and plates and moire patterns and slides and all that. Bottom line: If you were to walk around the club you'd see a few people really grooving on the visuals, but so many people use glowsticks, LED's and whatnot to get themselves off. And the great majority of people are either watching the DJ or have their heads thrashing about. The visuals are wallpaper, maybe an additional lighting effect.
Visuals guys are notorious for not getting paid very much despite bringing in the projector, and original content and playing all night. D.J.s carry in a stack of somebody else's music and plug into a sound system provided for them and get paid three or four times as much for a two hour set.
-klik-

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by vjklik
The visuals are wallpaper, maybe an additional lighting effect.
Visuals guys are notorious for not getting paid very much despite bringing in the projector, and original content and playing all night. D.J.s carry in a stack of somebody else's music and plug into a sound system provided for them and get paid three or four times as much for a two hour set.
-klik-

These are the attitudes I am devoted to changing..... and its happening here in syd :)

[Amukidi]

MoRpH, I'm with you all the way on that one! Certainly, the crowds I seem to work for are on that wavelength too, Iknow it will hurt at first, but VJs ought to steer clear of promoters that think otherwise. They'll soon offer work if the punter's feedback is right.

[MoRpH]

Yep it always helps if you try to get a mention in the reviews in the street press too :)

[phluxm]

Repetition and dislocation are a VJs biggest enemy. Good Vjs can build in dynamics and reflect the music to build on the whole event atmosphere. Visuals often seem secondary to the music & audience because they are often cyclic and non-dynamic (off in their own little world). This is where the VJ comes in to plug the gap between the music- the audience- and the visual. To make em all one and enhance the vibe, not be an alternative to it.;)

[phluxm]

And yer damn right we should get more $$$ for it than the DJs! They might have to do an hours set, often ours are all goddamn night!

[murph]

It's funny, lately the way things are going here in Mpls, non-headliner DJs aren't getting paid anything for most gigs. So we're finally making more than the DJs, and slowly moving to shorter sets as well. (mostly due to shorter club nights rather than raves, and a lopsided economy for local DJs, but still...)

This summer we'll be doing some shows both on-stage and for only 2-3 hours. I'm very happy about that! =]

As far as newbies vs old school, here we had the case of not much happening visually, other than video games on a big screen, for a while. So we managed to get away with lots of the cheesy cliche stuff until we had the experience to make and mix better content. I feel proud to know that people are noticing the visuals more and more these days, and are noticing when we're doing new things, and they're liking it.

[vjklik]

I'm with you morph... I just think it's sad when somebody throws a massive somewhere and you have to play detective to figure who the visuals guys are off the flyer. The sound company gets big billing, the D.J.s and the space are the big attractions, but there's either no mention of visuals, eye candy, projection or VJs or tiny print somewhere. Sometimes there aren't very big visuals installations, sometimes they're huge. Often times, given the planning that went into an event, the visuals look tacked on. Or drowned by smoke for lasers. When I describe visuals as wallpaper, I don't mean to suggest that visuals don't have an impact on a crowd. From subtle mood changes to transforming a wall into a window on a whole new world you can really transform a room or an open space. And of course, there are people who dig on the visuals and can appreciate when the VJ is *on*. I think promoters and clubs should seek feedback on the visuals at their events. Because it can have a powerful effect on a night. VJs are "The Vibe Jockeys." and given the right real estate we could boost a party from below average to absolutely stellar. When the money was small and the installation less significant, we'd joke about reheasing with a certain DJ or bust out our most colorful or hypnotic videos and try to stay sharp. I've worked with visua-centric promoters before. But not often enough and the trend seemed to be moving away from that. Glad to hear it's happening where you are.
-klik-

[LEVLHED]

EVERYONE is a newbie first.
I think all my points have been made already, such as knowing your "visual market". That is, knowing what has been seen by your audience and what hasn't. Here in my local area, noone else has done video projections, therefore the audience hasn't seen the dreaded x-mix tapes before. In this situation one can get away with being a newbie, because the audience is all "newbies" too. You start getting into doing the bigger shows or clubs where the attendance is in the thousands, you damn well better have your shit together and be able to offer something truely unique! But even then, it depends on the visual market and what has/hasn't been seen before.

Its hard to know how one compares to other VJs, as we still have a hard time sharing mixes. From what I've seen (from my recent mecca to Psychic Chakra), even though we may use some of the same clips, there really is alot of variety from VJ to VJ on how these clips get presented.
Keeping this in mind, I would say if you're a newbie don't be intimidated! Be a professional, work your ass off, develop "your" style, and help us bring the art of VJing into the forefront of the party conciousness where we all know it belongs!

[murph]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
From what I've seen (from my recent mecca to Psychic Chakra), even though we may use some of the same clips, there really is alot of variety from VJ to VJ on how these clips get presented.


This is *SO* true, I do the VJ booking for a weekly club night here, and when I first started I hadn't really seen too many other VJs' sets. I figured most of what people would be doing would be similar to what we do, but I was very wrong. Every VJ we've had out has definitely had their own unique style, and I've been very surprised by the variety of both types and use/presentation of content.

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
Hey mr vj type person, wouldnt it be dead clever if we have the dancin baby lookin like hes in the dj box with the DJ.. Yawn! and fade to black
Hahaha dancing baby, thats almost as good as the blue screen dancing scene idea :P

[apu]

Just to add my two cents worth as a complete newbie aspiring VJ.

I have started noticing in my home town, Auckland, NZ that VJ are starting to get promoted in gigs. Example Subware album release party with special guests and eyecandy by edibleplastyc.

How good is that? The VJ is getting billed as an act. Maybe is just that kiwis are such a cultured lot. LOL

As for loops and samples. I am taking the approach that it would take me years to go out and shoot my own footage to use in my inaugral set. What I am doing is sourcing footage from the net and tv and dvd that takes my fancy and blending it and mashing it up till I think it looks wicked. I have the gear to shoot my own footage and will start on that as soon as time allows but in the meantime I guess I am reusing other peoples work to an extent but its what I do with it that gives it my own twist and looknfeel.

I certainly dont want to be labelled as a second hand footage VJ forever, but at the moment I have to start somewhere and build on my experiance from my sets to then go out and make my own ideas come true.

Having said that, I aint done a set yet in a club environment in AKL. My approach is going to be to throw a massive party in October with my crew, with our DJ's and our visuals so we get to control the content of the party and how much emphasis is placed on the visuals etc etc

Cant wait, cant wait, cant wait.

Ciao

[syzygy]

I don't think there is a problem with using existing clips, so long as we do something original with them.

Dance music has come a long way in the lat 15 years and a lot of that is to do with the fact that sounds are sampled, reused, refined, resampled, reused, refined, modified, resampled, refined... (you get the idea) Look at Drum and Bass - most tunes are ultimately based on two original breakbeat samples ('Amen' and 'Apache')

Each dance music artist adds something to the samples that they use (at least, the ones who are worth anything do) and, by 'standing on the shoulders of giants', things move on faster than if everyone was insisting on creating entirely new sounds for each tune.

I think the same is true for visuals. Using existing clips gets people going with visuals and can even be a useful tool for experienced artists.

*BUT*

We can't just reuse clips in their original state. You vary rarely hear a DJ playing the same set they played 2 years ago for a good reason - things ahev moved on.

I think of resuing clips as like a remix - you take the original components, add some bits, rearrange them, mess them up, add effects and end up with something that is totally different.

I'd love other VJs to take some of my sets of clips and 'remix them' - it would be great to see what other people can do with my original material. I'd also love to do some remixed of other VJs stuff and perhaps suprise them with the direction I take it in.

Recycling clips isn't always bad - it's just when it's an easy option or the clip becomes a cliche that things go wrong...

That's my view anyway...

Dan.

(SyZyGy visuals)

[Amukidi]

murph said: "Every VJ we've had out has definitely had their own unique style, and I've been very surprised by the variety of both types and use/presentation of content."

Sorry, but I don't buy this! It reminds me of comments I heard on an almost weekly basis when I was teaching in an art school, especially with regard to graffiti and comic illustration. In these two areas as in VJing, I have noticed that VERY few artists have their own "style". For example, most graffiti around is still very strongly based on the 70s New York subway art. When ever I travel I look out for "new" stuff and find that its very thin on the ground. Doesn't seem to matter where I go, there is a homogenised style which, quite frankly, no longer excites me. I still thank the artists for making the wall/building etc look more interesting, but 90% of them are deluding themselves that their "style" is unique. There must be others around like Basquiat and Haring, who developed their work, but I fear that they are in the minority. This is becoming so with a lot of VJing I've seen - far too much derivative work (videos out of car/train windows, eyes, old public information films, well documented film clips [Godfrey Regio etc], fractals et al). Ok, its possible to manipulate these and add your own "style" to them, but you can't polish a turd!
I guess it must be hard to do a residency, as you are likely to have an element of the same audience on a weekly basis, and they are going to get bored eventually.
I think that it is great that there is so much source material out there for the taking and budding tyro VJs can get started with this, but somewhere down the line you've got to go out there and make your own if you are to present refreshing and original work. Anybody can get a handful of clips, shove them thru some standard FX filters and call themselves a VJ, just as anyone can bang out a groove in Cubase - but I for one, would get bored shitless within a week of staring at these clips and would want to go somewhere else. Am I making any sense?

[syzygy]

jaffa - I agree with you - there are definitely some cliches that we all have to work to get away from. I managed to afford a digital camcorder recently and it has definitely changed the way I approach my visuals. Now, rather than being effects-led, I'm trying to shoot original source material that makes visuals out of unexpected things (and then, of course, do some effects work on it)

On graffiti, have you seen the work of Banksy? His style is minimal, subversive and totally different to the 70s NY stuff?

http://www.bristolbeat.co.uk/artists/banksy/

http://www.banksy.co.uk

[Anyone]

I was about to write something very long and smart about VJing,
but I just had a big splif and now I cant remember
what the hell I wanted to say...

I think it had something to do with
being obsessed with legitimising the whole thing :confused:

anyhow, i'm off to Creamfields to do a 16 hour set in
the CreamfieldsX10 tent... So if any of you guys are there,
please come and say hi, it'll give me an excuse to take a break !

NE1

[Amukidi]

Cracking stuff syzygy! Bristol does seem to be a hot-bed of creativity, his web site is rather good too. Having spent many years teaching designers, animators and film-makers, I am a hard man to please when it comes to originality! I accept that most of us have to go through the learning process, which often (usually) involves copying/parodying others work (a time honoured learning proces thats been with us since the dawn of "art"), we MUST push ourselves forward into the unknown in order to make our own statements. ALL of the world's great creatives take risks and in doing so, lay themselves bare to their audience. If you are totally comfortable with the direction you are going, then I reckon you're playing it too safe!

[syzygy]

I'm with you there - copying the style of others is great for learning (especially in an area like video, where there are a lot of technical skills to be learnt) but if we are going to push things forward, we have to aim to be original.

Having said that, for me originality doesn't always mean creating footage from scratch. It doesn't really matter what it is that you are doing, as long as you are adding something to the proceedings (i.e. not just playing other peoples loops one after another)

I don't have any problem with VJs whose creativity is based on mixing existing video clips in original ways. I wouldn't do this myself as I see myself as a producer just as much as a performer but I'd have respect for someone who could do it well.

If I had any sort of musical skills, I'd want to be a producer rather than a DJ but I can see that (some) DJs bring something special to the mix that even the producers of the tunes can't anticpate. The same could be true for visuals.

I actually think it would be very cool to walk into a club and see some of my visuals being mixed with other footage in a way I didn't expect.

SyZyGy

[dronkie]

Guys, I know you're having quite a discussion here. Can you try and point out your own 'Style' in the thread I posted ? It's the thread called "Different styles...Who does what"...

I'm trying to get an overview here...

Dronkie

[syzygy]

no problem dronkie - I'm there

SyZyGY

[Amukidi]

Er yeah, sorry bout that! I do abstract Flash animations, mixed using "Flashmixer" ona (dare I say it!!) Laptop. See attached pic - speaks louder etc. Me on Big Chill stage with Tom Middleton

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by syzygy

On graffiti, have you seen the work of Banksy? His style is minimal, subversive and totally different to the 70s NY stuff?

http://www.bristolbeat.co.uk/artists/banksy/

http://www.banksy.co.uk

Hmmmm wow a lot of his stuff is REALLY cool but this (http://www.banksy.co.uk/pb01a.html) is REALLY SAD.

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by syzygy
On graffiti, have you seen the work of Banksy? His style is minimal, subversive and totally different to the 70s NY stuff?

http://www.bristolbeat.co.uk/artists/banksy/

http://www.banksy.co.uk

Wow a lot of the stuff on his site is GREAT, but this (http://www.banksy.co.uk/pb01a.html) is REALLY SAD

[syzygy]

yeah - that one is definitely in the 'not cool' side fo graf for me and just doesn't fit with the other stuff I've seen by Banksy. The thing I really like about his work (usually) is that it seems to fit in with it's environment.

SyZyGy

[Amukidi]

Yep - what a destructive approach to one's work, sadly this is going to happen within ANY sub-cultural "art-form". 95% of grafitti artists haven't got a single cell of creativity in their brains, the 5% that have, produce thought provoking, interesting and sometimes beautiful imagery. This is also true (but with a more even balance) in ALL "art" forms, music, poetry, DJing, VJing, film-making, painting ad nauseam. BUT, (and its a big BUT), the democratic nature of our culture DOES at least give folks the opportunity to have a go - there is no longer that old longing "if only I had the means, I could do that" - anyone with an ounce of nous can find the means to produce work. Its just that the audience ALSO has the right to walk away from it and make any comments they choose to make about it.

[vjklik]

Originally posted by syzygy
jaffa - I agree with you - there are definitely some cliches that we all have to work to get away from. I managed to afford a digital camcorder recently and it has definitely changed the way I approach my visuals. Now, rather than being effects-led, I'm trying to shoot original source material that makes visuals out of unexpected things (and then, of course, do some effects work on it)

On graffiti, have you seen the work of Banksy? His style is minimal, subversive and totally different to the 70s NY stuff?

http://www.bristolbeat.co.uk/artists/banksy/

http://www.banksy.co.uk

For images, great images, check out www.artcrimes.org
Worldwide graffiti art. Cool Stuff.
Cheers
-klik-

[fluchtpunkt]

very nice link klik. thx.

[syzygy]

I'm off for a holiday / filming trip to Barcelona next week - hopefully I'll get some good graffiti footage:


http://www.bcngraffiti.com/

While I'm on the subject - has anyone who has been to Barcelona got any recommendations for good fliming opportunities?

SyZyGy

[vj30]

DOES ANYBODY HERE KNOWS A PLACE TO SHOW SOME STUFF IN BERLIN?

[moon]

the most famous in berlin would be the wmf club.
never had a performance there myself but that's what
it's known for in germany anyway