Political visuals In Clubs

[complexvisuals]

Watching some of the threads going on here on VJF. Just wondering on what peoples views are on using polotical imagery in clubs. By clubs I mean, DJs and drugs, not art installs or theatre space.

My idea on visuals (for clubs) is that people pay money to get away from normal life, be it with music, drugs, drink or just socialising, so do they really want to be exposed to politics and social messages? Is this not the oppose reason why they came into a club.

Wha da ya think?

Cian

BTW: These clubs are where clubbers/punters/victims come for the music/beer/women/men, and not the visuals.

[PilotX]

In general I would agree with you.. but we've found that the nights with a slightly 'older' crowd (by this meaning late twenties/early thirties, rather than 18 year old glowstick raver types) like having visuals with more in them.. our political sets have gone down well with punters.
Oh yeah, and the CND event we did.. that one was all political, but different to the average night..

personally, I want to put in as much politics as possible, but find that visuals is not always the best medium for it.. I'd rather attend rallies/demos/write to mp to express my political views. I find that talking to people on a one-to-one basis is far better than trying to 'speak' to a whole club..

Also, I've had some of the best and most in depth discussions about politics with people in clubs; many who go are interested in politics, and will feel a connection with visuals that are on a level with their ideas. Of course, it's a dangerous game, as you will disconnect those who disagree with what you are saying.
Theres no reason to keep politics out of clubs - check out the synergy project (http://www.thesynergyproject.org/) - if the youth of today are disconnected from politics in the western world, then clubs provide a way to reach them, and hopefully correct the apathy that exists amongst people.

[syzygy]

I think it all depends on the club itself, the people it attracts and the vibe of the night.

I definitely agree that a lot of people go out to get away from things, and don't really want to be reminded about how crap the world can be.

On the other hand, some of the best reactions we have had to visuals have been when there has been some sort of message there. I should say, though, that our gigs are not at pure music/beer/women/men type of clubs so the clientel have different expectations.

We bring a message into what we do when we can, but it is something that we think about carefully.

One way to think about it is - how would the crowd react if the DJ played an overtly politcial tune (e.g. a tune that samples Bush) If you think the crowd would be shouting at the DJ to take the polictal stuff off, then you probably shouldn't start trying to educate them through the visuals either.

There are small things that can be done as well. Imagery can pass a subtle message without needing to be blunt. For example, showing some beautiful forest scenes can help to make people think about why the hell we're chopping them all down so quickly.

It's all about appropriateness. Knowing your audience is very important indeed.

Dan.

[complexvisuals]

Originally posted by PilotX
then clubs provide a way to reach them, and hopefully correct the apathy that exists amongst people.

Do you think it is your job to educate these people who are only out for a good night out? Do you not think that is preaching?

Cian

edit::just read this post. It came accross very aggressive. Wasn't mean in that way.

[PilotX]

Originally posted by complexvisuals

Do you think it is your job to educate these people who are only out for a good night out? Do you not think that is preaching?


that is a problem.. in my experience people react against being preached at.. so the majority of nights have no real political message in them.. the political sets we have done have had good reactions from a visual aspect as well as because of the political message, so people can watch them for either side of it..
It's more about making people aware that the issues exist, and pointing them to information than really preaching to them, but it's a fine line to draw.
(what I mean by this is bringing to peoples mind to question, for instance, the US/UK attack on Iraq; rather than just US/UK attack is wrong)

How you give the message is the crucial thing here, rather than giving a message at all.. integrating political messages into a visually interesting set, or using messages that are semi-political*
can work to break down the preaching issue. But it will never be got away from entirely..
*we did a bit with the messages: 'we were not born to work'; 'we do not exist to fill in forms'; 'we do not breath to be polluted'; 'live is for loving/creating/playing/dancing/living'. This is political, but slots right into the (a-)political stance of clubbers.

As I said, I don't consider visuals to be the best, or most appropriate medium for political messages.. the synergy project brought in ngo's to the nightclub with stalls, so people had the opportunity to find things out..

Tom

ps: I didn't read your post as aggressive Cian; it's a perfectly reasonable point. I have fun with street preachers sometimes, but mostly they just piss me off, whether I agree or disagree with them.

edited to add: we only use political visuals when the promotor of the night has ok'd it. There is no reason why a night should not place itself in a political position if that is what the people who are running it want to do. If people don't want it, they wont show up.

[syzygy]

Do you think it is your job to educate these people who are only out for a good night out? Do you not think that is preaching?

I believe that everybody who actually thinks about things and holds an opinion has a responsibility to voice that opinion at appropriate times and in appropriate ways.

If we, as individuals, don't take opportunities to educate people in small ways, then the only messages that people will get will be the big, well funded ones from the corporates.

Entertainment can educate too - sometimes the message can actually make it more entertaining.

Dan.

[mondo]

depends on the club and punters teh club attracts
i always check with the promoter beforehand as a courtesy involved in our agreement to perform

i show political stuff a fair bit at SoxaN nights when asked to by teh DJ etc.
showed some iraq stuff over D&B and it rocked the crowd....they went wild for it

in general my rule is, if the clubbers are conscious clubbers and the promoter doesn't mind then fine if agreed.

otherwise stick to fluff/tunnels/candy:D

[holly]

Good thread. I didn't think cian's post was leading to manditory censorship, and Dan's response seems more than reasonable (although Rova hasn't posted yet;) ). My guess is it's like everything else: there are always times when certain images/topics will be inapropriate. Should you show same-sex couples kissing at a straight party to promote equality? Inter-racial couples? Your motives may be in the clear, but it's all about how you present the info. The difference between "preaching" and "delivering a message" has nothing to do with the topic, but everything to do with how heavy-handed you are. Showing 50 gay couples in a row seems like preaching, but showing 1 gay couple in every 10 (isn't that supposedly the ratio?) seems like diversity.

There's no real answers of course. The topic is hypothetical.

[littlecatalyst]

i like the music, beer, women (&Men?), drugs..... description of clubs.... was not sure if you mean politics in spades, & in hearts....

but i just wanted to say that everyone here has a good point.... obviously politics in a heavy handed manner wont go over that well. no one likes being hit over the head with a 2x4. that being said; i did a show a few feeks ago called "Get Off The Grid" while it was in a club setting it was being put on by a group called "Deep Green Robots." i felt like it was my duty to be eco-boy.... if i didn't make those windmills rock, i wouldn't have been doing my job.....

and i really liked what dan (not Tom) said, about subtlety.... you can get a lot across that way without being preachy..... ok; as for the right venues for politics, what could they be? i guess the 9/11 peace party and the upcoming 9/11 parties could be cool (i ejoyed "preaching" at one last year... totally find that older crowds are happy to have politics thrown onto the screens (especially if its at the very least, going with the beat/music/vibe) um, what about at videolounges..... do you think that's on ok venue for political vjing? i mean even if people aren't in to your poliktics they can understand what youre trying to do and at least critique it on a a vjing basis...

but mostly i think that political VJing (as much as i love it.... any politics as long as it pushes teh envelope) really belongs online or in pirate DVDs.. thats where they will have their best punch

[funkcutter]

i used to show a lot of political stuff particularly when working with the flame cru - deffo goes well with jungle, dnb - demos, riots, civil (dis)obedience... reclaim the streets and the like... but it seemed that it became shown all over the place and so i looked for new things to show...

still have a lot of that stuff and it looks jolly good up on the big screen, especially at a squat party the night after the event... it's very 'newsworthy' and the audience that would have been in the massive squatted bingo halls of north london were most likely the stars of the show. we had a lot of good reception to the footage, but things sometimes got out of hand whilst showing police helicopters and rozzers up close - party headz would get agro and start chucking (usually empty, but sometimes full depending upon their angst) cans at the screen... a riot echoing a riot - fuel for anarchic fantasies. marvellous!

other problem about having footage like this is that the police also wised up and started filming stuff and suddenly those souper up close shots of the human condition became 'evidence' and you don't wanna be clamped down and your stuff taken and used in court do you? gotta be real careful. participants in these events also wised up and it was a tricky business negotiating your way through the crusties and the copper and not offending either side enough to get your camera mown down by mounted police or totally trashed by the brew crew (some of whom were unknowingly but definately being organised by the rozzers to bring down the name of protestors and their cause)

it makes for tasty showing though :D

[skyvat]

In my city, shaking your booty is punnishable by law, and people go to jail for 20 years for selling marajuana. The separation between the personal and the political is thin and sometimes non-existent. There is always some comment you can make.

As mentioned already, political doesn't nessescarily mean a downer or being preached to. If you can creatively communicate the ideas to your audience you are going to win hearts and minds. That's better than anything escapism can offer.

Mind you, I don't think that's a easy goal, but it's a worthy one.

[Rovastar]

No poiltics please it will be fine for a taliban recuirtment rave (e.g. Mirror/Guardian newspapaers, BBC TV event) but why on earth do you think all the clubbers would want to be witness your brainwashing/brainwashed propaganda.

We all I viewpoints on different things if your visuals are so bad that you have to use cheesy shock tactics then create better visuals folks.

[holly]

Tee hee, Rova. I was waiting for your take on this one. :love:

? not saying I agree or disagree, just wondering why everything is about war and no one is doing video sets about sleazy catholics who protect child molesters or rigged elections or the lack of inner-city education or any of the hundred other abuses of power that happen every day.

[wellREDman]

because that would involve effort to aquire relevant footage rather than just taping an average nights tv,

i dont know about you over the pond, but over here the post mortem is almost as ubiquitous as the war was,

at least tho now there is a differnt slant on it, the bbc having decided that the war wasnt after all a cool thing, and now are showing us all the stuff that wasnt shown during for fear of showing disrespect for "our boys out there"

[mondo]

holly mentioned "lack of inner-city education"

funny i was thinking about trying to express that point in a vj manner recently

our local school (and neighbourhood) is a fine place for kidtype pre-gangsta footage but i have a problem with the"zoo" aspect of it all - and i dont think the school would like what i have to say about them . ...maybe chat to the local kids to get them to co-operate in a collaboration..
mmmmm?? now we are talking

funkcutter - totally agree with everything you said - especially the police "evidence" issue - i think we are all the more careful at the demos nowadays - ive seen dv tapes pulled from cams before.

i also believe that a good political point can be made much better in a considered documented video

holly - dont forget globalisation v locality. those US fighter plane images work brill on just about anything else. ;) ;) ;)

[holly]

Over here it is very cautious. The media has been cut-out of Bush's world before, and even a (retired) White House corrospondant was very critical of the way the administration has been very closed and how the media companies played ball and kow-towed rather than be critical. We see no such footage, only hear about soldiers being picked off by snipers. Public opinion could go either way: pull out or send more troops. I can guess which they'll try first.

Right now there is growing effort to raise awareness of Bush's abuses of power without actually critisizing the war itself. If anything it's a weak movement because there's still the (too easily justified) opinion that an occaisional abuse of power is necessary to do the "right thing".... Today we learned that Bush has changed the succession order of president-in-times-of-emergency away from elected members of congress towards his own SS boys in "homeland security". :rolleyes:

The war is such a simplistic target, and I agree that just taping the evening news doesn't really show people what's going on. Wars end when they are won. Everyone will just get bored with war footage and not even care soon enough. The real political message should be shown but you can't tape that off the evening news.

[elbows]

Thats why I liked things like EBN and Guerrilla News Networks "S-11 Redux"

True you cant get an accurate picture from the evening news, but if you get the evening news from enough countries and alternative sources you can remix stuff to show the cynical use of language and propaganda etc in the war. Throw in a historical context and bingo.

British media means I havent needed to do much really, I recorded shed loads of stuff starting from last year when the buildup began, but the BBC and Channel 4 have been so anti-Bush why do I need to bother.

BBC documentary on Neo Conservatives was scary stuff, and BBC showed a Greg Palast program on the Bush Dynasty the other week. Shame I missed the profile on Donald Rumsfeld, and I never finished my Davros Rumsfeld hybrid properly.

[PilotX]

Originally posted by Rovastar

We all I viewpoints on different things if your visuals are so bad that you have to use cheesy shock tactics then create better visuals folks.

cheesy shock tactics? by this I assume you mean using pictures of bombing/people dying etc... why do you assume a political visuals set has to use shock tactics to get it's message across.. presumably you've not seen sets that move past the news to look at issues which don't get on at 9o'clock.. the cnd event was interesting - 3 vj crews; all on a brief for anti-war/pro-peace visuals - not one shot of fighting etc.. all about protest, peaceful action, changing the way we think about our position in society, and those who we elect/rule over us.
and yes, the war is, currently an easy target - it's everywhere, it's the biggest international political incident at the moment. but politics, as skyvat said, is everywhere.. and so political sets can take many forms - from sets against arms (memory from avit uk 02), to questioning the relationship between races and sexes..
but it does seem as though those who do political stuff are on the left.. maybe a misjudgement on my part but it seems to be the case.

[skyvat]

Well I'm fully willing to admit that most politically oriented stuff I've seen within the genre of live video has been pretty half-baked and preachy in the way Rova seems to speak to. I think that's more about the present maturity of the medium and some less inventive people using it. Most of us (including me) haven't figured out how to make a point in live video with concision and subtlely.

EBN did it beautifuly, socio-political commentary that appealed to (almost) everyone, presenting a view so complete you couldn't help but agree. And all while rocking hard. Of course - that was mainly made in a studio. People will figure out things that work in live vid, and that will be an exciting thing to see.

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by holly
Tee hee, Rova. I was waiting for your take on this one. :love:



I actually couldn't be bothered posting as I have posted about this many times before but didn't want to disappoint you Hol. :)

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by PilotX




but it does seem as though those who do political stuff are on the left.. maybe a misjudgement on my part but it seems to be the case.

thats because us art types are all bedwetting liberal faggots who can only talk about stuff

the rightwing form of protest tends to be a bit more ...ahem physical

[wellREDman]

with regard to the original Q.

i think really as usual context is king

some events require depth, some require fluff

(the best of course require both :) )

[mondo]

mmmm
fluffy depth - i see a vj schism aproaching - know what you are saying red:p