London "Bottomfeeders"

[antidope]

as my two month stint in london comes to an end I think I'm finally starting to realize why people are getting so pissed off at bottom feeders in the UK...

How many people are going to say they are VJs when all they have is a laptop and a 10$ 4 port video selector?! a mixer and at LEAST two sources is integral!

please please please, whatever you do, don't play arkaos with one clip set to a tunnel filter on latch!

[jkaal]

I think you should judge only by what they have on the screen, meaning what they are doing... when you say that a vj must have a mixer and two sources... I don't agree with you...
not the gear makes the vj as not the photo camera makes the photograph....

it is only about what you see....

[infopocalypse]

I'll agree with jkaal about not neccessarily needing a mixer. I think it's more along the lines of what exactly one puts into a mix... how much actual physical effort of mixing, etc, one does. But on that standard quite a few fuck it up.

Re: Bottomfeeders... I just want to tie them down and make them read a couple of economics books. Their lower price lowers the market price which then lowers their price even further to continue the strategy. There's a reason price dumping is illegle.

My 2 cents/pence

[Anyone]

2 reasons why bottom feeders exists :

1. people cant make a difference between good and bad visuals

2. good or bad visuals dont make a difference in the number of people going through the door.

these are the VJ community's main problems
they must be addressed, confronted and resolved
directly and immediatly.

if we solve issue 1, issue 2 will follow through naturaly.

In my opinion,
The way we will solve our problem is through education.
this should be the principle mission of VJ centric events like
AVIT and Contact Europe.

any other suggestions?

Ne1

[Rovastar]

Education does take time though. Too too long no doubt.

VJ events are useful but currently only atracting current VJ or wannabe VJ's. The next step is to get normal punters interested.

I have tried to increase awareness in the clubbbing communioty like no doubt many of us have. I have posted open questions to 'punters' on non VJ forums asking what they like, will they pay, etc, etc. All part of more awarness.

Feedback has been mixed but I have noticed over time more and more are noticing visuals and noticing the same clips al the time that certain VJ's will no doubt do.

Personaly I think we need some sort of award or something for the best VJ. MOre awareness to the scene.

I do not underestimate how difficult and downright bitchy this can be but the punters need something to look at and say wow that is good or at least to notice different styles.

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by Rovastar


Personaly I think we need some sort of award or something for the best VJ. MOre awareness to the scene.

I do not underestimate how difficult and downright bitchy this can be but the punters need something to look at and say wow that is good or at least to notice different styles.

http://www.diesel-u-music.com/ has a VJ award this year. - its happening it just takes some time....

[robotfunk]

judging by the tripe i've seen dripping off some club walls, neither promotors, nor a lot of vjs care what they project, as long as it moves.

personally I find it offensive to have low quality visuals on an otherwise good night, much rather have no visuals at all than crap ones.

It's a shame to see a club spend their months' budget on flyin in Masters at Work and getting the cheapest VJ they can find to somehow compensate financially. Luckily I hear more n more from the crowd what stuff they like and what they dont (visually), and I think 'quality sifting' is a natural process, at least I hope! the more the see, the more they can distinct quality.

I always tell promoters either to get quality visuals or get none.
'Would you open up another room if all you could afford for it was a crap DJ?'

[holly]

Rova has a good point. Awards are given to promote recognition and a higher profile. Aren't we the VJ community? Should we have an award for someone who raises visibility (not VJs but manufacturers, promoters, magazine writers, etc)? But there's also the problem that VJ events only attract VJs (true), and from what I've seen one of the fundamental problems with VJs is that they are looking at their own monitors rather than looking out at the crowd to guage reaction.... If the punters don't really care about the visuals (and I think that has the possibility to change once there are enough quality VJs to make an impact), how do we get the VJs to care about the punters? There's enough inward-focused self-serving "Artists" in the world. The only real complaint you can make against full AVS automation is that there is no human pilot to give it a face and personality and really guage the crowd. Sorry to say the same can be said for most human VJs as well.

[mondo]

holly says "how do we get the VJs to care about the punters?"

by acting like performers and not saddo laptop geeks with a filter
look at all teh best vjs - known for good vizuals and good to look at as well.

rova -
""Education does take time though. Too too long no doubt.""
mmmm - all it takes is commitment to teach by a vj - easy once you have a set-up EVERYONE wants to come and play - thats what we have found

""VJ events are useful but currently only atracting current VJ or wannabe VJ's.""

- yes, that must be the point - more newbie vjs, more wannabee newbie vjs, more vj profile amongst those who wanna see vjs....more promoters having to consider vjs.

eg. big gig in glasgow last w/e - promoter was persuaded to budget for a vj crew by a young dj who is going to become a big dj name.....he was worried it wouldnt work.

it did - and now we have several thousand converts and a regular well paid gig

things are moving in certain areas so not all bad bad bad
;)

[InsideUsAll]

"things are moving in certain areas so not all bad bad bad"

yep its happening alright, its just gonna take a little time.

in the immortal words of roy castle [which i probably quote too often]: If you wanna be the best, and if you wanna beat the rest, ooooh dedications what you need.

if your dedicated to something enough, it will happen. And theres a whole lot of very dedicated V.J's around. All that effort cannot logically be fruitless.

[vjTranceKoder]

well said, Inside!

[KillingFrenzy]

From an economic standpoint, you also have to look at how many events can truly support visuals. If the club doesn't supply the gear, then the event promoter has to hire in the visuals on their dime. For midweek events, this can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for a tight budget. If a promoter can't meet my regular price, I'll give him the "budget" option which is a very minimal setup for myself.
I've never heard of a bottomfeeder killing off a big fish. I'd rather have a hundred half-assed laptop wankers playing with winamp visualizations and copies of Baraka at my heels, than one Hippotizer or Xbox "solution" threatening to automate me out of existence. To me, these "VJ in a box" setups are going to be the drift nets of the industry. The punters will have no say in the matter, and the club owner will see it as a purely economic decision.

[infopocalypse]

I think having our own VJ of the year award is fairly useless, as this is a VJ only site. Likewise with trying to educated the public through events like Avit, which are VJ heavy and punter light. I have been working on swaying some magazines that are punter read (or club owner/manager read) to do a VJ of the year award, and i'd suggest that NE1 do the same with his DJ Times hookup (although I'll say this... it's very bad form for any award that someone creates to be won by that person (this goes for myself, NE1, any person who would think of an Avit VJ of the year award)).

Aside from that VJ recognition is a battle of attrition. We must continually get mention (not as individuals, but as a movement) in press in order to be seen as hot or trendy enough to work on. We must also get VJing socially able enough to live up to the label of a trendy new thing. Holly's got a point with most VJs not looking up from their monitor (this reflects, imho, technically upon the VJ as well... a technically good VJ will know their gear like the back of their hand... thus being able to do a lot of things on the mixer blind). You've got to be able to talk to DJs, promoters, patrons. Dress presentably @ the least, and be socialable. Remember that the entertainment industry is a social business.

James

[vjpixylight]

Hmmm, funny that the poster of this thread is a yank hanging in london for a while.. As it looks to me, it is definately a UK problem at the present..(with holland prolly on the UK heals..)
This might be because VJing as a whole, is really taking off in the UK, and every promoter's cru(DJ's and tech's, lampies) are scrambling to have visualz as part of their promotions..(if you havn't noticed how many UK newbies there have been recently posting, you must be blind!!)

This influx of newbies(some call them bottomfeeder's because they don't have much gear, and can't charge what VJ's with lot's of gear charge) is what one might call "growing pain's"...
It's bound to happen, and there isn't anything any of us can really do about it.. except for those that bitch and moan..(go ahead, get it out, maybe you will feel better after, and go about VJing again)

I think to distinguish one's self from these newbies to the mass majority of the punter's out there, VJ's are going to have to start getting their media charting, with VJ mixed DVD's and VHS tapes...
It's the only way for punters to really take notice of any particular VJ in general..(thus recognizing the quality some VJ's put into their work)
We don't need "VJ of the Year" awards, until there is enuf VJ media out there in the consuming public, to make the punter realize, "wow VJ so and so, really has a great DVD"..

So instead of moaning that you are getting undercut by some newbie, that has the connections that you don't, try putting more effort into your own works, and get some of it published...

My 2 peso's equivilency..:p

[complexvisuals]

Originally posted by infopocalypse
Dress presentably @ the least, and be socialable. Remember that the entertainment industry is a social business.


A DJ turns up to a gig, he looks well (most of the time), but alot of VJs seem to think that because they are behind the scenes they dont need to bother. The main aim of most people on this forum, is to push VJing out of the dark and into recognition, this wont happen if you look like a roady.

Im not talking about dressing in the latest gear or swish clothes. Just look clean and tidy.

It may sound like im being a dick about this issue, and reading back thru the post it does give that impression that you need to look good to be booked, but in essence, if you can present yourself well, who is going to allow you to present their club thru visuals at a club/event/festival.

Rant over

Cian

PS: Most of that was aimed at Red. Please please clean your act up Red. Giving a bad name to us all. ;)

[mondo]

try putting more effort into your own works, and get some of it published...

amen

...and then we find ourselves making frigging mini films/pop vids/showreels at all hours

if its not making & rendering clips for performance its making & rendering clips for artist milestoning.

im not surpised my family dont know me anymore
:)

[WordVirus23]

Just wanted to say, I just finished an hour long set with two other VJs... we recorded to a set-top DVD recorder... the results are awesome... I highly reccomend jamming with other VJ's AND RECORD it... VHS, DVD... camera pointed @ the output monitor... just record it, you'll thank yourself later

Bottomfeeder: Someone who is excited about getting a gig you wouldn't take.

[infopocalypse]

I say go for broke, be a swank cool motherfucker when you go to your gigs. Dress in such a way to be stand out without being outstanding. Bounce around a bit when you're doing your set, and stand for fucks sake. Please stand up. The only DJ that ever gets to get away with sitting down during a set is Paul Johnson (those who know who the fuck he is may boo and hiss now).

James

P.S. Parking in New York City really, really sucks.

[complexvisuals]

The only DJ that ever gets to get away with sitting down during a set is Paul Johnson

Methinks Dj in wheelchair?

If so, boo, hiss.


Cian

[mondo]

word virus

what about the sound quality of the recording??
you recorded directly to teh dvd box im assuming

- now im excited more kit to buy

[zap25]

Originally posted by holly
Rova has a good point. Awards are given to promote recognition and a higher profile. Aren't we the VJ community? Should we have an award for someone who raises visibility (not VJs but manufacturers, promoters, magazine writers, etc)? But there's also the problem that VJ events only attract VJs (true), and from what I've seen one of the fundamental problems with VJs is that they are looking at their own monitors rather than looking out at the crowd to guage reaction.... If the punters don't really care about the visuals (and I think that has the possibility to change once there are enough quality VJs to make an impact), how do we get the VJs to care about the punters? There's enough inward-focused self-serving "Artists" in the world. The only real complaint you can make against full AVS automation is that there is no human pilot to give it a face and personality and really guage the crowd. Sorry to say the same can be said for most human VJs as well.

If we want VJing to take off we as a community have to take the initiative to make it accessible to "the people".
House music came into being because a few stubborn DJs.... well basically because DJs took the stage. And each new style in dance music in general came into being because a core group decided to organise events with a recognisable "face".

Has any VJ or group of VJs ever organised an event from the VJ perspective?
And if so was it a one-timer or a weekly/bi-weekly/monthly/yearly thing?

If the posts here are any indication it's usually VJs getting hired for an event. And if that's going to be the way 90% of all VJs are doing their business it'll never gain recognition.
Then the VJ will still somewhere in a list of goodies.

Zap
------------
"yea, it's gonna be a great party, there's gonna be strobo's, gobo's, scanners, lasers, go-go dancers and a VJ"

[SilentEclipse]

Originally posted by complexvisuals


PS: Most of that was aimed at Red. Please please clean your act up Red. Giving a bad name to us all. ;)
Hey there's nowt wrong with the redman...ok maybe he could lose the sombrero ;) But watching him on Sunday night fiddling with all his knobs, switches, peddles and joysticks etc really was like a piece of performance art!

[michaelheap]

Originally posted by mondo
try putting more effort into your own works, and get some of it published...

amen

...and then we find ourselves making frigging mini films/pop vids/showreels at all hours

if its not making & rendering clips for performance its making & rendering clips for artist milestoning.

im not surpised my family dont know me anymore
:)


they dont :-)

[complexvisuals]

Originally posted by SilentEclipse
But watching him on Sunday night fiddling with all his knobs

Jo,
Getting worried about you. Did you know his best friend is a cat?

Cian

I have a feeling he going to kill me at AVIT :grrr:

[spark]

ha! bottom-feeders - what a negative term, are you running scared? competition is no bad thing, and fundamentally you have to ask yourself two questions: 'am i confident that my experience and time-honed product will kick the shit out of a newbies set?' and 'do i want to spend my free time getting stressed about promoters who have no concept of quality?'.

quality will out; more vjs = more vj awareness

its up to us to promote the best of what this can be. all the most succesful and 'established' vjs i know are all involved in promoting the scene as our success is tied to it. picking up on what has been said in this thread, regular vj-centric events that i know of have been organised by NE1 and holly, and AVIT can and has been just as much about punter+promoter education as a vj trade-show.

toby

ps. the reason AVIT NA was essentially a closed vj event is due to the repressive legal/governmental situation in the US at the moment - even the event that was organised was told it would be closed down under the RAVE act... the founding AVIT event was a showcase of how vjs can transform a clubnight, working with local promoters to shatter their limited understanding of our scene, and a 1000+ punters'n'press dazzled by an immersive visual environment the likes of which just hadn't been tried before. AVIT is what you make of it.

[holly]

Personally, I think "VJ of the Year" is not a good idea until there is a better distribution of visuals and we can all see who/what we are voting for. My suggestion was to offer awards to other industries, industries that could help us (i.e. producers, clubs, record lables, distributers) you know, "Thanks for promoting VJ Visibility" etc. It's still too premature for that too, most likely. Just bringing it up to clarify that "VJ of the Year" serves no greater purpose outside of this community, and really it should be a regional thing to strengthen a local scene (where everyone has the opportunity to know and see one another).

Meanwhile: Bottomfeeders. It's not about how much or how little gear they are bringing in. It's about undercutting a possible business market when you have no concept of price or dedication to the long run. Extra gear is an easy fallback to justify fees to promoters, but it gives no indication of quality or dedication. Right now VJing is essentially 2 businesses: 1st is gear rentalWe have an undereducated market, so outside of Londontown we are more often than not underbidding to pump the market and get visuals in clubs in the firstplace, hoping to eventually create a demand that can support us. Is this what happened in London? Once the scene could support VJs for hire, it was still too easy to find people willing to "pump the market" for themselves? What ? not everyone got the memo that it was time to stop pumping now? Where's the VJ mafia? *UNION!*

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by holly
Personally, I think "VJ of the Year" is not a good idea until there is a better distribution of visuals and we can all see who/what we are voting for. My suggestion was to offer awards to other industries, industries that could help us (i.e. producers, clubs, record lables, distributers) you know, "Thanks for promoting VJ Visibility" etc. It's still too premature for that too, most likely. Just bringing it up to clarify that "VJ of the Year" serves no greater purpose outside of this community, and really it should be a regional thing to strengthen a local scene (where everyone has the opportunity to know and see one another).



Actually a 'VJ of the year' might be a good thing, if it was based on a few criteria's..
1. it would be a regional award(with a preset amount of regions)
2. it is awarded on how the winning VJ(s) raise VJ awareness about VJing in their neck of the woods
3. it isn't about who is the most popular VJ**(not a popularity contest)**
4. it includes media and TV support to show the greater world what we do..
Did I miss anything?

In Denver they have a once a year 'Best Of' awards that cover the DJ scene here, and it does get coverage from the media..(unfortunately the VJ element is non existent in it)

[holly]

How did we get from "Bottomfeeders" to "VJ of the Year"? Just a testiment to our foolhearty optimism? Actually, distinguishing some people with recognition might help on the resume, but I expect there will be plenty more complaining about Mafia and exclusion. What's the first step? Visual Society of New York? Visual Society of Greater London? Visual Mafia of Montreal...? Then everyone has "Member of VSoGL" written on their business cards and you price fix and inter-support. Small union dues go towards raising industry visibility and local awards, etc. Bottomfeeders are cut out or brought in if they're willing to meet local criteria. Standard contracts across the board. Then the clubs revolt and go with bottomfeeders 100%. I don't know too many nightclubs that honor unions....

[infopocalypse]

This meeting of the local 405 of VJs will now come to order, first on the floor, Morty.

Cynical old me popping in again. A VJ union simply won't work because of the fact that it's the entertainment industry, and we're all jealous little bitches on some level or another. There's no DJ union that I know of. Lighting techs have a union but its not well enforced. The only successful models of unionizing in the industy is the SAG and the like on the opposite coast... and that really only works (a) because of the heavy mafia influence in the movie business throughout its beginnings, which, at least last time I checked, we don't have (b) because of the fact that studios are pretty much a closed-shop enterprise. Unless clubs become a closed-shop enterprise (and we KNOW how trustworthy club owners/managers are) creating a VJ union will simply cause this thread to go from complaining about london bottomfeeders to complaining about london non-unions.

James

Waking up now... must shoot parking people in NYC.

[infopocalypse]

Originally posted by complexvisuals


Methinks Dj in wheelchair?

If so, boo, hiss.


Cian

Yep. Got a shotgun in the lower back at a party in Chicago back when. @ Least somebody hissed me for the joke. But hey, didn't stop him from comin out with "It's a Love thing."

[KillingFrenzy]

I try to position my kit somewhere unobtrusive.
My visuals are my presence, and I make my contribution through them.
Would be a little different if I was doing a coordinated AV set and the necessity to stress the live element was more pronounced.
I don't feel the need to be the spazzing monkey in the EMF video hitting the single keyboard note for "Unbelievable." I also tend to work for 4-6 hours, which means being "behind the curtain" keeps the visuals consistent, while I may be doing any variety of things such as stretching my back, making out with my wife, or wanking frantically at the keyboard like the idiot in the EMF video because the barman is my pal and went heavy on the gin.

[kommy]

wow! good to know married people still make out

[infopocalypse]

Yeah but bear in mind the average idiot doesn't know the difference between a CD playing and a DJ playing, or a Dance DJ vs a Mobile DJ... trust it from someone who has a spot right by the door of the DJ booth and thus prone to requests like "Baby Got Back" when Murk's "Darkbeat" is on, and questions like "What CD is this?" when the DJ booth is positioned in the crowd in your standard DJ-god spot.

James

[Rovastar]

The VJ of the year thing that I raised was more for the AVIT events as you can see other 'professional' and judge accordingly.

Looking at the material is the problem.

We all do not know what otehr VJ's sets are like in any details and to be honest mostr of us are far to polite about other peoples sets. :);) Or maybe I am too honest....cynicial.

THe awards things can work within the scene. I look at teh awards in the demo coding scene. Scene.org etc look at the shortlist for best demo last year and they are the best demos teh current 'market leaders' in the scene.

Bottomfeeders.

I am sometimes annoyed with bottomfeders as suddenly they wake up on day and have on visual experience and there first proper exposure to creating there own visuals is in a live club enviornment.

If mean how many DJ's/musicians/artist/whatever expect there first go playing they chosen 'sport' to be paid ina club. It is like 'hey I just bought a guitar and think I know how to strum it hey let perform in front of 2,000 ppl.

I played for yeras at hoem creting stuff at home before I even considered VJ'ing/visuals in clubs. Bottomfedders and new vj don't do this I bet they will not even consider geting 8 hours of new (orginal) footage and pratice for years before goiung 'live'.

Maybe this is way I was unipressed with the (lack of) quailty of VJ's sets. Dunno.

Scruffy VJ's :)

hehe please don't say we all thpough of red when that was posted. :):p ;):D