confused amateur VJ - time to turn Pro?

[viscountash]

I need some advice.

I'm at the point where i either ditch the VJ thing and sell up or go at it professional. Its just that i find it very very hard to get solid deals. I have approached a big club here in the West [UK] to talk about a long term project [which is the way i am looking to do things] and they turn round and say that they already pay ?100 a night to some non-descript and that does them fine. This happens very often.

I now that'll bring a reaction of 'well show them what good you can do for them....' but that is not working. What i also don't want to do is become a promoter. I want to make video and show it, not hand out flyers. In the next two weeks it is either going to have to start fully supporting me or i'm off for another career. What do i do? Shall i specialise - live video and aerial work as an example - or stay flexible. Do you pro VJ's just go by word of mouth or do you allocate a certain amount of time to getting work and are you quite ruthless about this?

Thanks, and don't be too worried about advising me to go for it and me nicking your work in a month.

[wellREDman]

dude i dont think i know any vjs who really make a living from this in the uk who dont have some sort of sideline, producing dvds, editing,writing software , cleaning out cats etc.
except perhaps some of the real old timers whove been at it since the oil laamp days and have lots of cool band contacts, or AVers who've had a few hits

this is definitely something you do for the love of it not to make dosh, so if yr contemplating "finding another career" then my guess is you dont really love it enuff to take the pain and heartbrak being a vj entails

[robotfunk]

the reason repo men havent eaten me alive yet is being as flexible as i can, which is very.
im a jack of all trades really, sometimes vjing pays my bills, sometimes coding does or even selling the odd copy of my soft, or i release a record or even take job now and then, sometimes my bills arent even paid.

I wouldnt specialize too much until you get really brilliant at something people need a lot.

[viscountash]

i think you might be right RED. there's been too many problems and fuck ups compared to good nights and i'm not the type of guy to sell out and vj at any old crap night.

its just that i can see if i got two nights a week @ ?150 or one @ ?200 and two cheap ones then i could survive doing what i like best.

am i in a dream world?

[syzygy]

Making visuals pay is really tough at the moment. A fair few people who had been supporting themselves soley from visuals have recently got day jobs to stay solvent and anyone looking to spend more time doing visuals is finding, I assume, like us that getting promotors to pay enough for visuals is very, very tough.

Now, there are people who make a very comfortable living from visuals but they tend to be the people who have a fair amount of very expensive kit (high end barco projectors and so on). From what I've seen, these guys make their money mainly from equipment hire to the bigger events (If you have specialist kit that is hard to source for events then you can set the price to some extent).

The problem for content focussed VJs is that there is a lot of competition out there now and many promotors are not always particularly discerning. If they can get 75% of the quality for 50% of the price then that is what they will do (many would even take 25% of the quality for 25% of the price) Not all of this is down to promotors not caring. Remember that many promotors take a big risk with the nights they put on. The lower they keep their costs, the lower their risks. I don't know about your area but in Birmingham the costs of venues, security etc is on the rise while the entry prices that punters are prepared to pay aren't keeping track. This obviously means that budgets get squeezed.

We recently went almost full time on visuals (I am still doing some freelance work in my previous vocation as a commissioning editor for books). It has taken us about three years to get to the stage where we have enough contacts and reputation to feel confident doing this. I wouldn't want to be without a fall back plan - visuals is a risky business to be in.

If you do decide to go pro, don't expect to make money straight away. There aren't any really huge individual costs in setting up a business but everything adds up. Expect to run at a loss for a while while you get everything up to speed.

We've done loads of gigs where we haven't really made any money from them, but some of them pay off. For example, we've worked with a crew of drum and bass promotors in London who we've known for years, doing visuals for them in 100 capacity venues. Obviously there is not much budget for visuals at a gig that size. Now they are going to be promoting a regular night at the Fridge in Brixton (capacity 1800) so the budget is correspondingly higher.

Obviously, it is important to make sure that promotors realise when you are working for a lot less than you really should be.

To some extent, you can work around low fees by doing lots of gigs (we do an everage of almost 2 per week) but there is a limit, especially if you need to create custom content for each gig.

The biggest advice I would give is to provide as many services to promotors as possible. If you insist on the promotor sourcing projectors etc then they will pay you a lot less than if you can deal with the entire visuals side of things for them. Buy your equipment rather than hiring where possible so that the hire charges go to you rather than the hire company. Record your live camera footage and offer to make a tape for the promotor for some extra cash. Find other ways to make some money from your equipment and skills other than nightclubs (we're doing some simple live camera projections for a pagan ceremony at the weekend...)

Having said all that, we are really glad that we took the plunge. It is a tough business and we have had to seriously economise our way of life to make ends meet, but we're having a lot of fun along the way.

I'm sure other people will give you some different takes on all this - this is just based on our experience.

Dan.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by robotfunk

I wouldnt specialize too much until you get really brilliant at something people need a lot.

For sure. Flexibility is what gets us through. You've got to take each and every opportunity that you can and be prepared to move your skills accordingly.

Dan.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by viscountash

its just that i can see if i got two nights a week @ ?150 or one @ ?200 and two cheap ones then i could survive doing what i like best.

am i in a dream world?

Have you worked out how you will get weekends off?

An interesting exercise is to work out what you need to have coming in per year and then divide that by your expected rate to find out how many gigs you will need to do per week. Remember to factor in income tax unless you are brave enough to hide from the tax man.

Now factor in some weekends off (everyone needs a break) and some weekends where you can't find a gig (summer is pretty quiet apart from festivals) and suddenly you find yourself having to add to the expected rate in order to get the number of gigs low enough to make things workable.

Remember also that 2 gigs a week probably means working Friday and Saturady nights every week unless you can find a midweek gig that has the budget for visuals (not all that common)

Dan.

[viscountash]

cheers Dan

its just so annoying. to give Vjing a go you've really got to spend some cash. i have fallen into the trap of thinking the more kit i own the better i could be. because of course to be realistic you cant start VJing by hiring kit. i now own a spread of kit that stares at me saying ''i'm your ?5K debt". i also have found that the creativity - and thats what i am , a creative - has gone out the window, being replaced by knowledge like how long a BNC can run instead of a coax.

i feel that i know the equipment, the market and the business reasonably well now, enough to put myself out there. but for what? if i knew this much about photography i could be minted in six months and for way less effort.

i think i might sell up, document the whole adventure in a little book and take it as a lesson in being adventurous but not practical. i might then go to a club without my flightcases to have a little dance.

to sum up [don't take this as being bitter], after about 2 years from starting with slides to running a flexible digital live unit i kinda feel like you do when its 4.30am and you're the last out the club by an hour, you're on your own and you've been paid ?80 for three days work. a bit fed up.

> ash [expect to see everything on ebay soon including possibly the first 2nd hand v-4]

[syzygy]

Originally posted by viscountash

to sum up [don't take this as being bitter], after about 2 years from starting with slides to running a flexible digital live unit i kinda feel like you do when its 4.30am and you're the last out the club by an hour, you're on your own and you've been paid ?80 for three days work. a bit fed up.


I think that might be your problem. We leave most gigs (not all) feeling really excited about the music, the people and what we've done visually, even if the pay wasn't great. Maybe you just haven't had the right gigs for you so far. We've been pretty lucky to be able to do visuals for some of the DJs and artists that we really enjoy.

VJing is not a career, at least at the moment. You have to really love it to stick with it.

Dan.

P.S. Let us know if you do decide to offload the V-4 ;)

[Lara]

What really turns me on is animation, and I would love to make a career out of it- broadcast graphics, music videos, even editing and effects. I love vjing but it is only one outlet for the kinds of skills I possess. I will never give up vjing and I would love it to be another string to my bow- that I could reproduce live what I create for the screen. Could you look creatively at the kinds of skills you have and apply them to any other jobs? That way you can continue to vj and still earn money. Loads of drawbacks, obviously- if you work 9-5 then you might be too tired to vj, but freelancing has the same risks as the vj world. I think its all about isolating what you love about visuals and what you love doing, then seeing if there are any other jobs that can fit the bill. Therefore your vjing becomes your sideline (not hobby bottomfeeder blah) and you probably enjoy it much more?

[asterix]

Dude - if you really love what you do - then you're not really working are you? So in the extra time you have - consider yourself unemployed but making $$ to support your visual 'habit'.

:)

Read books like 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' and motivate yourself into being a little more clever about your finances - and you'll never really have to 'work' again.

And it will pay off!

[holly]

Sell the slide projectors. You have too much gear. Streamline and simplify. Expect to freelance with practical work. You already have a lot of cam knowledge, is it possible to go for a job that's out of the creative field, like installing security cameras, or developing dynamic business presentations...?

It is lazy of you to think that you can perform without promoting. Promoting is not just going to get more drinkers in the pub, it's going to let every person you meet know what you do for a living and hand them a card with a way to contact you. This is how you get freelance jobs. You have no right to expect that you can survive on just doing what you love if you won't take the steps necessary to ensure it can support you. No one wants to be a promoter, but that is what you must learn how to make a part of what you love.

Ok, so you have this dog, and you like playing with him and having him around but you really don't like cleaning up after his poop or buying his food.... Ok, so you have a girlfriend and she sleeps with you and makes you feel good about yourself, but sometimes she talks too much and sometimes you have to wait on her to get ready and tell her she's not fat.... Ok, so you have this party where you VJ and maybe it could support you someday if you could just hang in while the scene builds, but you don't want to promote so you'd rather just quit altogether....

[monsho]

Vjing alone just isn't going to make enough money to live on - unless you've had that lucky break or know enough people inside the industry. Its my belief that you have to combine the Vjing with relevent other work, design, editing etc.

This has been our aim from the start - I work full time in an education centre teaching kids web design and video stuff, I also do a lot of freelance work in web and graphic design, then do the VJing on top - yes its killing me and I never have a night off any more but I want to be in the position to have enough freelance work there to combine with the vjing to make a living, and ditch the day job.

I think its important to consider the equipment that is bought as well - I'd love to buy a V4 but its a lot of money for something which is only going to be used for VJing, so the money has been invested in computers and laptops, dvd writers, cameras etc - all this equipment is great for VJing, but also can earn money elsewhere - god I've even stooped as low as filming a wedding or two (horrible work but earned us decent money) and that justifies the money spent on equipment to use VJing.

Its definately a love of it thing, and I do feel there are going to be more aspects of live visual performance coming through which may earn more money than clubs - I'm making sure I have enough experience and am good enough to grab these opportunities when they come along. Yes I have questioned it all when packing away after a mid week club at 4am and having to be at work at 8.30am but I really do love what we're doing and think it'll all work out (setting myself up to be shot down spectacularily there!!).

[InsideUsAll]

we're fully booked all summer, and I wouldn't consider trying to survive from the money those bookings provide alone. You definately need another money spinner to survive.

I luckily dropped on a programming job with video, so my day job is loosly connected with my 'habit'. Flexibility is the only way to keep your foot in the V.J door.

I would write more, but I think most things have been covered above!

...mmm I sometimes daydream about a life where my only responsiblity was to produce & mix visuals... I don't know of anybody who's living that dream right now.

maybe one day things will be different. -heres hoping!

[merseyj0ker]

Best of luck Ash! Hopefully see you around Bristol sometime.

merseyj0ker

[ristuuk]

eight years ago I was vjing six nights a week, week in week out , all residences.
Yeah great, made good money and totally full time ding what i loved.
down side no social life what so ever beyond clubs ,no holidays no time off, fucked up relationships
yeah your days are free but you use them catching up on the old sleep.
if youre prepared to give up your weekends then yeah do your two gigs for ?100-?200 a night. Remember most people have to do a full week to earn equilvalent in some shitty job.
Its a fine line and it wont last forever. Learn and use your skills , move into something related as well. I moved into corporate Av.
Still gig regulary, still have one residency -friday night, means i can get out for a weekend, even go on holiday.Work when I want not for need.
youll be suprised how much a city can change when you never see it.

[complexvisuals]

I used to gig 5 nights a week etc just like ristuuk. i did it for nearly 3 years. Eventually got a pain in my arse with reversed sleeping patterns. So I decided to take a break, get a 9-5er job.

Im now working 9-5 for nearly 2 years. I gig once or twice a week. Most of my gigs are thru people who have heard of me thru other people, so by the time I speak to them, their expectations of quality and cost have been set. So i dont really have to negotiate.

I do lead a busy life doing both, aswell as some design work and DVDs with background visuals for bars/restaraunts, but it pays. But the market still isnt able to support me just doing visuals, too many risks.

Cian

[viscountash]

cheers for all the responses.

i do do other stuff i just feel its time to become a bit more lean and specialise. most of my work is art installation that uses all the kit and i do a bit of desktop publishing and short film work but nothing to keep my head above water as yet.

i think if i'm going to continue i need projects that ask for a long term solution, like designing the show for a band or DJ set and then touring and mixing the content that i made. more package work than coming down and filling any old room with visuals.

i think all this negativity is due to my last two gigs. the last but one, was a fashion show. we had a ?2K budget and shot 45minutes of 8:3 ratio video that was put on two linear formats for simple transitions. 45 minutes before the show one beamer packed in and that was that. legal case now follows, with practically everyone who was involved, with me in the middle due to an overly basic contract. then my last gig was a community affair. i ended up setting up a four camera live set-up but the audience totalled about 5 twelve year olds and the room turned into the events creche. ?100, but not very satisfying.

so i think this gives a fair representation of my VJ career to date.

thanks for the advice - its good to see you lot are so positive - if it wasn't for this forum i wouldn't have started at all.

> ash

[ristuuk]

if i'd known about this forum I wouldnt have started in the first place.

....yeah I would have.

No regrets just keep it evolving.