Our Retarded Cousin?

[littlecatalyst]

(((special PC note-- sorry for using the word retarded, i should have used something like intellectually-disadvantaged or something like that... hey, some of my best friends are retarded (not to mention politicians...))

ok, i was wonderin.... do you think that these folks are in some way related to us? In my mind they are VJs and the stuff they do falls into the category (though much more like hip hop 'producers')

it's hard to find good online examples, but the "Scratch Video" peeps, Art Jones & NotChannelZero, Gorilla Films, that creepy MikePatton's Video Macumba (not him the video), The Duvet Brothers, (EBN), and now that guy TV Carnage..... i used to have a blast doing these.... and some folks yes just scrapbook stupid video pieces, but others really work the tape (((an old favorite was a 5 minute scratch of Star Treks which really made it look like spock & Kirk were in some heavy relationship (with lots of S/M)))... or that apocalypse pooh (but more true to the medium the crazy stuff with sources from mars and lightspeed editing......

so here's what i want to know, do you think these folks are VJS and this is part of VJing? or do you think these are bastard mutants of the video genre? or is it even something worse....

[vjpixylight]

dude, what/who are you talking about??

[littlecatalyst]

i'm talking about the folks who tape/buy hours and hours of footage and then make these mash-ups (mine would never last more than 12 minutes and had tight themes) mostly they are either political or silly but saw a bunch that were just very weird/trippy (in a non swirlie sense) i've seen them called scratch-videos as well as comps or mashups....
people doing this; art jones, TV Carnage, the Duvet Brothers, Gorilla Films, Mike Patton, um, psychotic feed... there's a lot of them out there....

these are really bad examples (especially a lot of them use the crappy scrapbook technique as opposed to anything really eisenstinian....) but there's www.tvcarnage.com/attacksplay.html www.tvcarnage.com/ouchplay1.html
www.tvcarnage.com/casualplay3.html
again, these are pretty bad examples but you get the point..

my point is that this is also a part of vjing.. .and i wanted to knwo if people agree with me or think i ought to lay off the hard stuff

[vjpixylight]

I would say that VJ's are artists that make video in realtime, whereas these ppl you mention are video artists(a close cousin), or videographers..

[littlecatalyst]

well, the "ographer" part sorta would imply that they shoot their own stuff, and calling them videoartists lumps them together with the people we don't really want to be lumped in with....

i understand the realtime issue (though youre still a vj when you make pre-mixes, right?)
but to me this is a part of VJing: its sampling and remixing, playing with the boundaries...
i used to do these before i ever saw a videomixer and called them mixes (my original vj tag, alimixx cam from these as i called them "a lee mix") and employed similar concepts of loops, pops, scratches.... and thoroughly involved in the politics and discource of using the medium in a more hip-hop way....
if vj=dj (which we don't all agree upon anyway) then this would be like what Dr Dre does? producing the sounds? i'm not saying i like their aesthetic, or their chioce of using only found footage, but as we define vj culture, i though we ought to consider these, our retarded cousins, as part of the family...

[sleepytom]

its a blur - alot of the stuff ebn were doing was done in realtime (using there video sampler) and feedback type stuff which can only be produced live.

others were (and still are) producing stuff via traditional editing techniques - some of these people have performed live using realtime effects and computer triggerd samples and others simply make stuff for fun (or channel 4)

but what are we saying here? - there is no definition of what a VJ is - some people who call themselves vjs play stuff just off one dvd with no live mixing - other vjs use no clips at all relying on live cameras

lets face it VJ is a self selected title - if people want to say they are a VJ they will - and you'll have no more of an idea quite what they do or how they do it!

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by sleepytom
its a blur - alot of the stuff ebn were doing was done in realtime (using there video sampler) and feedback type stuff which can only be produced live.

others were (and still are) producing stuff via traditional editing techniques - some of these people have performed live using realtime effects and computer triggerd samples and others simply make stuff for fun (or channel 4)

but what are we saying here? - there is no definition of what a VJ is - some people who call themselves vjs play stuff just off one dvd with no live mixing - other vjs use no clips at all relying on live cameras

lets face it VJ is a self selected title - if people want to say they are a VJ they will - and you'll have no more of an idea quite what they do or how they do it!

so true tom, but for the sake of argument, and to define in a generic kinda way, I would still define a 'VJ', as one who manipulates visuals(either by switching between them, mixing(with a video mixer) them, of effecting them in a realtime atmosphere)...
I reject the notion that a video editor that uses a non realtime technique, to make video, as being a VJ..(maybe a VJ producer, but not a VJ)..
If a person just plays a tape or DVD without any realtime manipulation, then I don't consider these types VJ's, or anything else for that matter...
hell, my 2 year old cousin can throw a tape in the VHS deck, but I don't yet consider him a VJ...

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by vjpixylight
I reject the notion that a video editor that uses a non realtime technique, to make video, as being a VJ..(maybe a VJ producer, but not a VJ)..

ok. point taken... so they're (maybe) vj producers (like that guy Raphael Montanez Ortiz... who makes KILLER loop but does not play live)

that make me wonder.... if there can be Producers (who do it in the studio) and VJs (who do it live) I wonder what else there can be... but moreimportantly it makes me wonder if we are parts of a greater whole.... and if that's the case, what is that greater whole? what is the whole that we are but subsets of? (is it scratchvideo and we are all just parts of that?)


ps: doe your 2 year old get into shows for free? or does he have to wait in line with everybody else??

[KillingFrenzy]

Funny that such arguement goes on over what is a "VJ" when where I'm from "visuals" is the default terminology. Any time I've slipped into using VJ, mostly from reading this forums, people just give me a blank stare.
I think you'll find most of the mash-up people have done some sort of live sets, and most of the live set people have done mash-ups of some sort. I do think the best mash-ups have an idiot-savante quality to them, where a certain amount of obsessive autism is recquired to bring a subject back around to meaning. I'm not sure one is any easier or more artful than the other; there being good VJs and good Mash-up producers.

[littlecatalyst]

kf i don't really think there's a difference like you say a lot of mashups will vj and a lot of vjs will mash.... (personally i hate the term mashup prefere scratch video, but i guess mob rules...)and yeah there is that idiotsavant part (why i called them retards)

truth be told, i dig doing this stuff A LOT except i don't like to wallow as sooo many mashers do in the worst tv has to offer. i don't even like to go to quality (good or bad, theyre just bits on the palette-- sorrt for the "painter reference"), who cares about silly stuff on tv, i'm into taking snippets that have stregnth and power either because the images is totally loaded, or because of the production value (people shooting 30 second comercials have some killer tight sequences, just one shot will usually do) or cause it can easily be twisted into my world (heh heh...)

think the power potential in these jams (especially when anywhere from 3-10 minutes) is amazing! super fun.... and wheteher they are our cousins or they are us, who cares? but i'm curio to know howmany others are out there doing these as well....