"VJ" name causing problems

[vjrei]

This is not the first time we discuss this and we may do something about it some day.

Ok, VJ is "the art of mixing videos", lets make it that simple. Now the problem I'm facing over and over again just like the rest of the VJs is that we are related too much by the DJs fees.

Just last week a promoter was offering me $300 for a big event, I said that for rave parties I charge $1000 (just my computers and me, no projectors). The guy told me that he as a DJ charge $150 the hour and he wanted to hire me just from 2am to 6am (peak hours) I said to him:

"Look, first I can not work under DJs hours because I have to set up my display from 6 pm and I have to stay until 9am where I can unplug all my stuff. Now, all the DJs share the same turn table during the night, VJs can not do that because softwares, platforms, etc. And if I share my setup you will have to pay for it which is gonna cost you.

Set up (3 computers+mixer+camera): $150 each = $750
VJ $150 the hour x 11pm to 7am (9 hours) = $1350
Total: $2100
(without pre-production)"

Now, the problem I have to deal over and over is to saparate the DJ paradigm from the VJ. Actually I'm abaout to call myself a Visual Artist but that doesn't sound that "groovie".

"VJ" works to explain to some one else what you do in a party, but for the one that is gonna pay/hire you VJ comes with a lot of disadvantages.

I'm gonna start this topic here to take it to the Eye Wash event in NY because there is a need to set up some standards in the industry, if not we are going down.

[Stickman]

But the real question is what are your services worth to the promoter?

I come across simliar problems all the time here in London, and to be honest it's usually a question of what can the promoter afford to pay for visuals.

I don't know about other parts of the world, but here in London the basic cost involved in running "raves/parties" has more than doubled in the last 12 months, mainly due to insurance rates and venue owners increasing thier charges.

Add into this low attendance figures (as there are lot's more events going on nowadays, all competing for the same audience, and add on top the costs of yet another service (ie visuals) and the promoters are left with vastly reduced profits, hence the low rate being paid at the moment.

Stickman.

[vjrei]

It is not about the service, I'm talking about events with $20000 to $80000 in budget. With clubs things are different specially because a club opens almost every day with 500 people average.

For clubs I have my rates as DJs too but we are falling in to the same problem again just in to a differente proportion.

My point is that the word "VJ" point directly to "DJ" terms, now, DJs make the party, VJs not, VJs enhace the environment.

The $2100 budget is a estimate for big rave events.

Now, I want to make an experiment considering myself "visual artist" but I do not know if that term is too bohemian for sponsors.

Once again it is a "try and error". But for sure I do see a big influence fron the term DJ to what we do and specially our rates.

[holly]

Since we have a party tonight, I will ask everyone there what they are calling themselves.... I'm open to suggestions, although I think we will never shake the term VJ altogether (it is just too easy to say, although when I have a conversation about VJ vs DJ or trying to coordinate both in one sentence my tongue gets twisted and it takes twice as long because I have to say both very slowly....).

I see VJ as a title, like MR or DR. (someone else said this before me), as in:

Live video mix by:
VJ La T. Dah
Use it like "MC" or "DJ Hoho"

I see people also like "Visuals by..." or "I do rave visuals...". For me this is too general, could mean lighting, slide projections, oil on an overhead projector.... I do video, and I'd like to keep "video" as part of it. Maybe FLASHers and Live Generators don't want "video" in the word...?

[saccade]

i'm torn. my stuff is 95% abstract, which means that calling it 'video' is a stretch. when asked to define what i do, i tell people that i develop frameworks for improvisatory animation. when their eyes uncross, i tell them i'm a video artist. if they're still confused, i tell them i do club visuals. and then they nod their heads.

i loathe the term 'VJ'. it cheapens what we do. few of us do the visual equivalent of spinning records + beatmatching.

maybe i should start calling myself a 'time-based abstractionist'... still pretty awkward, huh?

[littlecatalyst]

...a while back at a party, some intellgent college guy was all up my ass about this french guy, Barfs, and Stimulacrums and post-structures or something... i knew what he was talking about, but he was getting all waxy about how mixing videos was this sort of great post modern revolutionary tool (and even though i really did agree with him) all i could do was look at him and say "I just does it" .....and i feel that way about the title issue. its like WellRed said in a paralllel post.... it is what it is, do what you do

now as far as "vj"=less bolivare$ due to the dj/vj association... i really dont yet understand how venezuela clubs work. cause here yes there is that local dj level $150 for a set but then there are the main djs of the night who always seem to make 10-50 times that (usually for a set they haven't changed in a month-- but that's a different story)

lastly for Eyewash, though youre probably there already and not checking vjc, i hope you guys have an AMAZING time!!! that you shed light on our new title (if vj is overthrown) and Holly, that you record your set (then burn a logo in it and then let us see it!!!!!)

[holly]

You know what? I had such a good time I forgot to ask.:confused: :sad: :zzz:

Putting "L" hand to forehead. "Loo-zer" But Skyvat performed and it was beautiful. I already know he doesn't like the term VJ. We talked about it once. Ecin was there and he joked about making Music Videos, but in a way you knew he was figuring he made music videos....

[mondo]

whoa
how much did you charge!!
did you do the gig and did they pay!!...thats decent money in my book $150/hour

im in the wrong country.

[wellREDman]

http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=3064

[syzygy]

One thing you could try is to explain to the promotor that doing visuals (at least the way you do them) is more like being a live performer than being like a DJ.

You need to arrive early to set your kit up, do the video equivilent of a soundcheck and stay until the end to pack your kit up.

If the promotor has any experience with live acts, they will understand that extra costs are involved compared to a DJ.

On the other hand, is explaining how much work is involved really the way forward? How many promotors really care about paying a 'fair' price for the work that people do?

Many promotors don't hire live musicians because they don't percieve extra value above having DJs, so the extra cost is#n't worth it.

If the promotor thinks your stuff is worth the money, they will pay. If they don't then they won't. Simple as that. In my experience, promotors don't really care about how much work you do - it's end results that matter. If they look at your $2100 quote and think "I could add more value to my party by spending $2100 on hiring more lights" or "It would be better to buy a free drink for every punter with that cash" then that is what they will do.

Quote what you think you are worth and make sure your demo is so impressive that the promotor simply has to have you.

Dan.

[holly]

:evil: Advocate:

You have to understand the market. Syzygy makes the best points. Because club promoters here are NOT married to video the way it seems in UK and Netherlands. Video is maybe for large venues so you can see the person at the podium (like at the oscars or a religious rally), or for advertising. It is not for entertaining or spinning live visuals (unless you are trying to do a hi-tech product release maybe, something where using video and projections really plays a part in what you are showing). If the event organizer can get an ice bar for cheaper than a VJ, he might do it. If he can spread tents or lights over a larger area than it costs to hire extra projectors and pay you for less-than-broadcast quality video, he will spend his money on what he feels makes him look the best.

Educating the market on why we should be paid more is one way to attack the situation, but it expects sympathy from the promoter to win. It's better (imo) to strip your rig down to essentials (no multi-tower nonsense, no three-monitor preview rack mount bullshit, no van....), learn your rig and travel as lite as possible (like a DJ who just carries records). If your mixer is too large then it is costing you to travel with it. If you are a laptop junky, see if you can buy DVD players cheaper (of course you can! My whole rig is cheaper than one laptop!). Check competitive prices from rental houses for gear like projectors and screens. Then you can hand them a list of what you are supplying and suggest they rent elsewhere and have them install and pick-up so you don't have to charge them for 24 hours. Take 30 to 40 minute breaks where you show pre-edited content. In other words, cut your expenses and lighten your load. I can live ok on $200 dollars a day if I'm only bringing in one bag and VJing for 4 hours, but I'd need a lot more money if I'm hauling equipment and renting a truck and staying 14 hours for load in and strike.

[holly]

Just to add to the above: $200 is like a small event or club night with no expenses. Rei is right about huge events with thousands of people, obviously you must charge more, but still my point is to cut expenses, offer less equipment and less work (as an alternative to begging for more money).

[vjrei]

Let organize a few ideas first.

1. In Venezuela the $150 are for DJs in big shows, in a regular club they make about $30 per set, that is more or less what a VJ may get for the entire night. Actually right now I'm co-producing a big event with some one else.

2. My main concern is about what the VJ brings to the promoters, for the general public VJ is the easiest way to understand what we do. Compare it with the first years of Multimedia ?do you remember that around 1995? everybody was talking about "multimedia computers" but no one knew what that actually was, at the end is a computer with speakers that can play a music CD from the CD-Rom drive.

3. We are going back to a thread that I think was my first one here. When I started as a VJ I was getting my jobs through the other DJs (mots of them promoters) and I was making $60 per night, then I went to the sponsors and at that level everything was a kind of messy because big companies didn't have even a promotion department and the person uncharged didn't care about the importance of my work. The best place to fall was the advertising agencies to the creative department that was working with that specific sponsor, at that point video production cost $$$.

The problem I'm dealing now is that some of those departments are receiving request from other VJs for very low amounts, while I was asking for $2000 or more the new VJs where asking for $250!!! then is when I came up with the "When you are a real VJ" thread.

So, at different levels we can charge different amounts but the big problem is to have an inexperience asshole to come with a very stupid ammount to ruin everything because he doesn't live from that work.

In my country I have seen some jealousy towards VJs that want to charge, that is why I'm taking my way around becoming a co-producer of events togather with some one with more experience, I have the contacts to the sponsors, I do not have defend the value of my art, I'm very helpful and there are lots of $$$ (well I'm charging my $2100 + my colaboration as a co-producer).

But I still thinking, VJs should look their way, not in to rave parties, but in to record companies working for different bands, musicians are very artistic and our job is easier (at first sight) than working in a club only. In place of a "guest musician" we could be "guest artist". We may be touring with them and charging may be as a band member for less ammount of work.

VJs started from rave parties but that doesn't mean is all what we can do.

[vjTranceKoder]

read somewhere that these artists didn't like to be referred to as 'vj' because that's what one of their ex-girlfriends referred to her cootch as!

Now that's funny!

[michaelheap]

holly, replying to your devils advocate point:

the uk is in a post rave state, raves here were banned in 1992 when the Criminal justice bill came in, making out door gatherings with more than 5 people with 'repetitive beat music' illegal.

this forced dance music to go mainstream, and for the past 10 or so years has been the predominant form of music in bars and nightclubs country wide, with the associated 'drug culture' etc, following it into clubs, Radio one (BBC) regularly talk about getting messy, a euphamism of taking loads of e and getting spangled.

There has been a demise in club and dance music culture partialy due to the recession and partly because every one who grew up with dance is now old and has kids doesent party every weekend anymore and get as messy as they used to. with the associated demise in the clubs.

so what promoters, rather than bar managers are doing is looking to give better value to their customers, making sure they come back, the vj sits in that 'Value added' catagory.

as i see it, in the US, clubculture needs to be Mainstreamised (apologies for the wrong word but cant think of another) and then start declining for the VJ and the multimedia act to get major conciousness.

[skyvat]

Originally posted by holly
You know what? I had such a good time I forgot to ask.:confused: :sad: :zzz:

Putting "L" hand to forehead. "Loo-zer" But Skyvat performed and it was beautiful. I already know he doesn't like the term VJ. We talked about it once. Ecin was there and he joked about making Music Videos, but in a way you knew he was figuring he made music videos....
Yo Holly, thanks for the nice word. You guys get an "A" across the board for being pro and totally-on-the-ball with every tech detail. And you played a great set to boot!

Dan

[circuitviii]

Yep. Problem with the VJ name. Too many MTV associations - it's like the way 'DJ' used to have those 'Smashie & Nicey' overtones (sorry to those not from the UK - these were a parody of the 80s commercial radio cheesemongers). Something makes me want to take it closer to the post-production/animation world. Oh yeah, its the fact that a really good Maya artist makes close on $200K a year, that was it...

Make the promoters feel like they're commissioning a production studio, and maybe they'll start valuing 'Live DV delivery & large-screen content specialists' a bit more highly...

[bluntfaktory]

we call it visuals here in Vancouver , and VJ is the style or type of visuals and although it is a little vague you could always say better visuals than most if you want to get fancy . it is frustrating though , trying to get "them" to understand only to get a thoughsand yard stare back in return , you know the blank look that says " no , i don't really get what your saying , but i'll nod me head and say yes anyway , and just go with what i though you did before you tried to explain it " :nod:

[blippy]

i use the term "video projection artist", but i suppose "video projectionista" or "video masturbation terrorist" could apply. the term VJ is appropriate, but the context is not the same as the term DJ considering there is usually only one VJ at event and many DJs.

i haven't been doing this long enough to know what's a fair price to charge, but it is true that if you'll be working an event for several hours, you should be paid accordingly. not to mention, people love love love video. an event without video, is like a tv without a screen - just a radio. people are so addicted to television that watching video mashups and abstractions is second nature. they are there to be entertained and stimulated, not just get they drink on and dance the fancy pants.

i've been involved with musik and photography for 15 years and nothing hypes people like video art. it is still very fresh to most folks. they can't understand how someone can just make their own videos and project them with a real real real projector. that has been my experience at least.

[murph]

I like to give a promoter (and other VJs) three options.

1) you can hire me to bring projectors, screens, and a mixer, and do setup/teardown. Matt Plays A/V company.

2) you can hire me to mix for an hour to 10 hours and sort the display yourself. Matt Plays VJ.

3) you can hire me to do both, for a package deal. Matt Plays, preferrably with some other VJs as well.

It seems like a lot of VJs are stuck on the mentality that they have to do #3. #3 definitely gets the most money for the VJ, and gives the best value for the promoter, but if they just want to hire you for 4 hours, let them find out how much projectors/screens/rigging cost, what do you care? Also, I have a lot of gear, but I don't really want to be playing innappropriate parties just cuz I'm the only guy around who has the gear, so I'm happy to rent out my stuff or subcontract from another VJ.

[VJOZ]

This is a common issue we've been dealing with on the west coast too --promoters expecting VJs to provide the full visual package. So we separate the different roles as VJ and Visual Production.

If a promoter wants visuals, we ask who's doing the production. If they say they want us to do it all, we give them the production speech.

Basically, we spell it out for promoters in terms they understand. We point out that the fuction of VJs is like DJs who need turntables, gear, and a sound system before they can do anything.

We also remind them that a single station, projector, and screen has the same value and cost as a small sound system. Bigger visual production works just like a bigger sound system and would cost as much.

Then as for content, it's just like DJs. Just like they can hire a DJ crew to entertain for the night, they can have a VJ crew. Or they can book several VJs and bill them in the line-up the same as the DJs.

I'm also very good at pointing out that with the extra VJ billing in the promotional material, the event not only looks bigger but it also has an edge over DJ-only events.

Booking visual and audiovisual artists works the same way - it's like booking a live musical act, with the headaches and benefits of lots of gear, showmanship, and draw.

Most often promoters understand and work with us. In some cases it doesn't work out. But all in all these terms and guidelines are very effective.

-radley (VJOZ)

[maxavision]

Language is an extraordinarily powerful social tool. The term "VJ" has been manipulated by the record industry (in the form of venue owners, organizers and the mass media) to define those who create club video mixes as a sub-act in a DJ-dominated live environment. As regards the vast majority of record labels (independent labels included) or other media outlets where music videos come into play, the DJ and/or performers are always considered the predominant production element. VJ's are rarely even recognized.

This confusion and demeaning of identities result in a situation where the VJ's themselves are not able to recognize or realize their actual positions within the contemporary technological landscape. In fact, they represent the next stage in the evolution of youth cultural communication, able to spread their presentations to millions upon millions throughout the entire world. The irony of the situation is that the vast majority of individuals in this field do not realize nor exploit this unique and formidable position in contemporary society. Rather, they have allowed recording and entertainment industry interests to put a blanket over these extraordinary possibilities.

By saying, " I still hate the term VJ, but I think we can?t do anything about it anymore," you allow corporate power to once again control, manipulate and take away another small (???) part of your identity (as they are attempting to do across a wide spectrum of our contemporary activities).

This whole "VJ or not VJ" discussion may all sound to many as ridiculously trivial or just an example of meaningless word games. I guarantee you, it's not. This particular VJ scenario exemplifies how corporate power is slowly and subtly removing our individual rights and identities beneath the weight and scope of their political and marketing strategies and agendas.


When the Video Mix Project hits these boards in the next couple of weeks, we'll be introducing yet a new name: The VMA or Video Mix Artist.

OK, now, collective groan.

But, given the hatred and/or confusion many VMA's have with the "VJ" identification, I submit to you the VMA as a generic term which includes VJs as well as all other subdivisions, as well as those who haven't the slightest idea what they want to call themselves. I believe the necessity for such a generic representation will increase as the form incorporates VR and other interactive technologies within its base in the near future, causing further splits of identification. In addition, the theater, performance art, modern dance as well as other forms of art and comunication are also increasingly incorporating video mixing into their work. In order to bring these various disciplines together under an identifiable umbrella, I believe the Video Mix Artist is a clear and precise definition of the work we all do.

Yep, I know the "VJ" term gets you noticed. Fine. Got no problem with that. I'm just throwing out an alternative which, lonely though it may seem at the moment, is fresh and open to all.

Peter

[Anyone]

VJ is an interim word

it defines a new concept/role that wasnt so present,
let's say, a decade ago...

people generaly have a problem with something
that just comes out of the blue.
they need to attach it to something they already know...

that it why when the automobile (car) was invented,
it looked like a carriage without horses.
when television got invented,
it looked like a buffet, a piece of furniture
that you could open up and look into

can we say the same about VJing?
DJ-VJ... the analogy / atachement to some other
more cristalised definition seems quite obvious

VJing is an interim word,
but is that bad?
should we be so desperate to find another Permanent word?
it might happen, it might not...
but IMO it'll happen naturally.
gaffer-tapping a neologism like VMA or VA or VideoJuggler
seems a bit adventurous...

VJing is evolving real fast as we all know,
it changes completely every 2 years
for all I know, we might shortly be jockeying images
directly into people's minds if we keep up the current rate of
technological evolution...

my current VJ set up has probably
the same life expectancy as a brown rat
if VJing is an interim artform,
why can't the words we use to define it
be interim definitions as well?

Ne1