loop prices?

[unjulation]

been thinking about mony for loops and how much i would pay for them so hears a few points that i have come accross, in no perticular order

1) how do you make sure that the mony for the use of these clips go's to the right person/place

2) this has to reflect both the work involved and market forces

3) visual loop mix's are never going to sell like a record so this will play a role within the understanding of the market

4) has to be afordasble to the consumer

5) ...................

[littlecatalyst]

Unj,
we ought to try to get Randal and Dave's input here..... Dave (Audiovisualizer: the total sweetie who lent me a m ixer for free this weekend), he just told me that when he started seleing loop discs he was charging $1 and then had to take that to $2 a disc... lately he waslosing so much money that he now charges $5 a loopdisc.... $5 is still a pretty dope deal. not sure what Randal (EOptica) charges.... but maybe he's lurking around......

not sure what you mean that the price has to reflect the work involved.... do you mean if someone is a sloppy code-er and taked 40 hours to make a so-so loop that that merits more $$ than something that took someone a short while to make (maybe something analog) i mean, what if the simple one totally rocks and is sooo beautiful that everyone wants it? (besides how would you be able to quantify the work involved when sometimes the work is the latest in a lifelong enquiery (the work that preceded the production)? i don't mean to bust holes in what youre trying to do..... also, you said that these discs will not sell as well as records, but at some point in the future when IVJ Magazine has articles about the different loop distributors as well as top ten lists and all that, and more and more venues open up to even more vjs, i have a feeling that the loops will sell as well as LPs and EPs now do... you're not talking brittny reecords right? youre talking about club dj records right? i think you'll sell more loops.
i look forward to buying/bartering loops from you!

[unjulation]

firstley i think you mis the point i'm not seling, actualy the ideas came from perchaseing some loop mixes and started thinking about both my own use of mix loops as i actualy sample 99% of my stuff so i have been geting on the trip of buying mix loops as a dj would buy records so i was thinking about how inderviduals who made loops could make a buck out of it

this is why i, unfortanatly, have to bring in the abstract of quality to the mix which is what i was talking about as reflecting the amount of work, so this is such an abstract that its hard to pin down so i throw that one out

as with all things hear they are questions and poss ideas, things to make you think about at night

[Lara]

Hmm, such a difficult one, you can't even use the whole sampled vs made clips thing because some people search high and low for samples and for others it takes a short time to film something and then cut it. Hey, its all got to come down to quality in the end- which is sometimes subjective but some things are just always grreat (look at the reloaded fx thread).

Dunno, I play mostly with loops which seem to fall into 3 sketchy categories: background, 'star' and overlay- think I would charge most for my clips which are the stars of the show, and less for the pattern/background fillers, unless they were ultimately cool. And if I was animating my own clips then I'd charge the absolute arse off everyone!

[Ollie]

And if I was animating my own clips then I'd charge the absolute arse off everyone!

what you mean you would charge for clips that you had'nt made?

[Lara]

Aw yeah, have to be copyright cool, don't get me wrong I can break the law in my own time, but I wouldn't sell anything dodgy to anyone. Still it takes time and trouble to find clips copyright cool and to edit, and effect them.

But the animation comment was if I was to sell the animated clips I've made I would charge loads because they are frame by frame hardcore drawn then digitised and effected then animated, takes such a long time- as opposed to making really quick animations in after effects. Sorry if that sounded scrambled.

[Lara]

:)

[holly]

Does anybody have an opinion on the Electronica-Optica loop download server ($2 per clip thingie)? It's still very new, and the visuals aren't to my taste, but that could change with time....

edited to add:
here's the link:
Electronica-Optica VJ Loop Server (http://electronica-optica.com/vjloops/)

[mondo]

yeah holly.
sheppee is a raya contributor and he tells me that the e-optica site is definitely one way forward for clip selling.
i will upload some of my stuff there one day when i get round to it. - (trouble is some of my stuff does not have copyright clearance - but thats another story)

seems well run and decent so far from my connectons with them - clips are short and in keeping with the trigger mute to a club dj ethos but that could expand/change in time.

i agree a lot of the visuals seem to be too ravey and not narrative driven which is my preference

[sleepytom]

i recon people should be paying a minimum of around $50 for 500meg of fullscreen video with licencing to use for live VJing

copywrite free should be much much more (take a look at the cost of stock footage)

but i'd need to sell a minimum of 10 disks at that price to simply cover the costs of making them (based on one day filming and one day edit at $250 per day)

would people be intrested in buying stuff at that price?

[syzygy]

well, one way to look at it is how sleepytom just did, of pricing them up based on the work required to produce them.

Another way of looking at loop sales is as a way to make some extra money from content that you have already produced.

If you have already produced the content and paid for it out of a gig budget, then selling it on after the gig would be a good way to get some extra money out of it.

Personally, I'm not all that interested in buying pre-made loops. We customise all our content for each gig and processed loops are often harder to manipulate how you want than source footage.

What I would be more interested in is buying and selling source footage. Stock footage costs a LOT of money - way too much to work in the sort of gig budgets we work with. Plus, stock footage is normally aimed at documentary or corporate video makers rather than video artists. It would be nice to be able to buy specific source footage that we want for a gig.

Would anyone else be interested in forming some sort of marketplace for raw, unprocessed, source footage?
Dan.

[holly]

What I would be more interested in is buying and selling source footage.
Yes, of course, there's always talk among VJs of building a library of quality raw footage.... But what's wrong with using the E-Optica for that very purpose (aside from what I believe to be a very low pricetag for anything that's not blurry rave footage)? And what do you consider raw source footage? For everyone it would be different, no? There's really no point in duplicating footage that exists in stock houses (except to discount them) like time-lapse flowers and cityscapes.... Wouldn't it be better to create club-oriented content?

For me, I can contribute very clean chroma-key dancers/people on mpeg2. I would like to get backgrounds, specifically 3D environments like hardcore steel rooms, menacing contraptions, and exotic locations (sacrificial temples, ultra-post-modern interiors), things I am too slow to build in 3D.

What are your ideas? Distribution of such large files will be costly, but I could see a KAGI-esque web store selling dvds. Would have to be a loose collective of contributers, almost like a broker/dealer rather than a stock house with everything onhand. Too much investment otherwise. And again the prices would be high to cover the cost of creation ? unless some sort of barter/trade was the goal.

[syzygy]

File sizes is the big problem with distributing raw footage through the web. I'd definitely see DVDs as the best way to move the footage itself around.

What I mean by raw footage is the footage as it was filmed by the camera. No touching up, no colour correction, no effects, no speed change, no cropping. Just the footage as it was originally filmed, so that the purchaser can decide what they want to do with it.

I think the best sort of approach would be to let people price their own footage, within certain bounds. We've got some footage that there's no way people would want to pay stock agency prices for, but could be really useful to someone working with a small budget. On the other hand, we'd want to charge more for footage that required a lot of effort to create.

The key thing is that what I am interested in is not 'gig-ready' loops or even the sort of prepackaged clips that stock agencies sell. What I want to be able to do is buy an hours footage from a shoot and use the shots that I want to use, rather than being limited to certain shots.

Dan.

[Lara]

Why not have a system that caters for everything: a broker/dealer system that allows for excange and barter, but also for outright purchase- some people will naturally have more skills and more to barter with than others new to the game.

I'd exchange both raw footage and loops: I like to edit and effect my own footage in my own style, but there are times where I really want something reasonably specific but don't know/want to/have time to make it myself. A more flexible system is a winner- you could advertise DVDs of uncompressed footage through little compresses loops on the same server as the loops/ background effects Holly's talking about.

[robotfunk]

just reading this again reminded me of an idea i had in bed after reading the same thread:

have like a p2p thing that has all your footage you are willing to swap, and a standardized system of small preview clips, thumnail shots of every x seconds, textual description, duration, resolution etc etc, and just check each other's stuff, and message each other what you are interested in (just select from a list) if the other person selected something off your list you can both make offers back and fro till a deal is made or not.

prolly a bit far fetched but very doable.

[monsho]

I think this could be a very good idea.

I'm a lot more interested in getting hold of unedited footage and the ability to view thumbnails of samples of a website, and then possibly an exchange of dv tapes or dvd's with the content on?

The vast majority of our work is produced from footage we shoot - sometimes it can be hard to come up with more (thats when a trip away somewhere comes in handy - Sonar here I come!!!). We have a big archive of dv tapes, some good, some crap, which could possibly be exchanged.

I'm not interested in paying for ready made clips which many others are using to vj.

[holly]

Hmmm. Well, the idea of "raw" footage is definitely a cammie idea. If you are using mostly cam footage and have your eye trained for what you like to see to the point where anybody's vacation footage could yeild results if you take the time to sort through it..., Then why not just be on a DV exchange-chain? wait let me explain rather than give it an arbitrary name:

VJ1 has DV footage that he's mined for all it's worth. He drops it into an envelope and mails it to VJ2. She has a week to drop a DV tape of her own in the mail to VJ3 or pass along VJ1's tape if she doesn't have time to sift through it or isn't interested in the footage. Everyone's name and mailing address is on a webpage somewhere so it works like a chain letter: I get a tape, so I look on the website to get the next guy's address. If someone is new, he adds his name to the end of the list and sends a tape to the person at the top of the list (I guess the person at the top is the one who maintains the website and the list.) It can start with just two people and keep growing. No matter where you are on the list you just mail to the next person so the tapes are always circulating. When you finally get your own DV tape back, you pull it and substitute something new. Get it?

Flaws: Everyone needs to be in the same zone (PAL compatability) and reasonably near each other so no one gets stuck with overseas shipping everytime they mail a cassette. DVs are small and durable. As long as you're not afraid of picking up magnogunk from an unclean camera, everyone has lots of tapes to sort through, but there should be a time limit to how long you can keep the tape otherwise your name gets skipped on the list. The only cost is padded envelopes and shipping (and 1 DV cassette full of footage).

Since all of you are in Europe and I am of NTSC descent (and I'd rather have a peek at Lara's footage as it sounds abit more like mine: a Star for a Star and a bkg for a bkg...) I'll leave it up to someone who likes sorting through other's vacation tapes to organize this exchange.

[unjulation]

nice idea bareing two problems

1) a bit paranoid but i would never put my address up on a public space

2) it only works if you have something to trade would it have to be home made i allways find it cool when i see what outhers have riped of theresallways something that i havent thought of

[holly]

Yeah, It wouldn't actually be a public list. I was kinda making it up as I went along. Basically one person would hold all the names and addresses. That's the guy at the top of the list. Anyone new joining the list would send to him first and then eventually receive a single address of the next person on the list. There's no need to make it all public because to keep the tapes cycling you have to keep everyone in order.

It's strictly for someone who wants to sort through other people's "raw" footage. I guess it can be modified as you see fit. Maybe it could work as a clip exchange on DVD also....

[robotfunk]

I wouldnt have problems with NTSC footage, I just burn it to a NTSC dvd and play w/o problems, I think you should be able to play PAL dvds as well holly

[crash]

?800 - 10 second loop

[holly]

I think you should be able to play PAL dvds as well holly


On a computer?:confused: Are you sure? but how do I mix it?

Oh, maybe I rip it and transcode?

[robotfunk]

oh i thought you used standalone dvd players, but yeah in a computer, why not?

All dvd players you can get in europe play ntsc perfectly (and output perfect PAL) so why wouldnt the other way around work?

[EDIT] transcoding is horrible, not so much the resolution as the fps, ntsc>pal gives one jerk a sec ...
if someone knows a good way to transcode, please put up a tut on vjc

[holly]

All dvd players you can get in europe play ntsc perfectly (and output perfect PAL) so why wouldnt the other way around work?
Ho ho ho. You are a very silly Europianer. There are no countries outside of America.... There are no languages other than English.... There is no format other than NTSC..., and even if there were, why would you watch it...? That is so very funny. I'll go tell the big American market that there is something outside their borders and we will all have a big laugh. Ho ho ho.

:sad: :shake: :mad:

[mondo]

i have been selling my clips via cd through this forum.

1x cd = ?5 just to cover costs and postage etc.
over 200 1 - 15 second QT mov clips

50% of clips are sampled
50% are mine

im not going to make money on this - i do it to push forward creative use for all digital artists.

once dave gets his hands on the cds - eveyone will have them no doubt.

more footage to play with for all

re: copyright - its all open access stuff in my book (for another thread perhaps)

>>if it moves, sample it<<

[holly]

its all open access stuff in my book

Hense, the fact that you are not making any money from it. Being mostly sampled means you can't put much of a premium on your content, despite all the time and work that went in to cutting them in the first place. The topic is blurred because you mix sampled with original, but I think quite a few people here are not just looking for ways to get more cheap video to show but ways to sell their own content. (Is it just me?) I admit I'm not rushing to put out high-quality original clips to the group because I don't want my content to become disposable. I feel one of my best selling points as a live act is the my content. I'm guessing anyone who makes their own shows from scratch must feel the same way, so they put a high value on their clips. Meanwhle, those who trade clips at the price of a disc seem to place no value at all on content....

It brings up an interesting point: do stock houses charge such a premium on their vids to keep it from being "open access"? I mean, once you pay $400 for half a minute of scenery you are much less likely to give it away to everybody. That means fewer people will ever see the content because it won't get spread around. Therefore, just by setting an arbitrarily high price you can stop the flow of your video into open access. Meanwhile, a clip you pay nothing for is passed on at the price of a disc to everyone everywhere. Is there room for middle ground?

[wellREDman]

personally i prefer the more informal barter system that runs here

example

someone posted that they were after bird footage

i replied that i had some stuff we'd shot of eagles

the original guy didnt want eagles, but someone else PMed me that he was after some eagle footage for his Uni final project

we exchanged addresses , he sent me a blank dv tape

i duped it and sent it back

isnt that all nice and anarchofriendly :)

p.s. the problem with all the loopserver/exchange programs (even radleys new one ) is they exclude us full PAL heads :(

[Lara]

Holly's idea bout blank DV chain mail sounds good . . . but yep I'm more into exchanging character/background stuff. We'll have to chat about this more, Holly. . . . tho I am about to go home to the N.Ireland on holiday for a month to a wind-up PC and the sloooowest dial-up in the world : ( As Lev said, 'give me broadband or give me death!'

[holly]

Don't worry. I'll be here when you get back.

Lotsa love. We'll miss you!:love2: :girly: :zzz:

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by mondo
i have been selling my clips via cd through this forum.

1x cd = ?5 just to cover costs and postage etc.
over 200 1 - 15 second QT mov clips

50% of clips are sampled
50% are mine

im not going to make money on this - i do it to push forward creative use for all digital artists.

once dave gets his hands on the cds - eveyone will have them no doubt.

more footage to play with for all

re: copyright - its all open access stuff in my book (for another thread perhaps)

>>if it moves, sample it<<

Easy mondo 'its all open access stuff in my book' ??!?!?!

And you are selling it??!?!?

There is a very different situation between playing live vj and getting away with it and publishing stuff for sale. And to be honest it is not something that VJf/c should promote and I think condone IMO

I know your stuff is all in 'ripping' footage but if you sell this and someone else gets 'busted' then you will be for blame also I forgot to ask you today would you 'rip' another vj's set (and then put it on the CD ) if not why not??!? What is different I know many VJ or big clubs in the uk are quite happy 'ripping' generic swirlies for live sets are in in this catoregy or live CD's

[holly]

Agreed. Transcoding and playing clips live is legal. Sharing and selling copyrighted or non-public domain video is obviouslyillegal. I think this is as bad as putting up serial numbers (and the VJC/F cops jumped on this last week!) or posting directions to a hotline server with software (recent cop activity). Hello? Forum host??

[sleepytom]

the forum guidelines exist largely to encorage respect for vj software developers and the time and effort they have put in to producing tools for the community

the 2 incidents holly metions were very diffrent to what going on here - sombody posting precise directions on how to work around a time restricted demo version and sombody else who appeared to link to a place to download fullversions of a range of diffrent vj software.

the sale of illegal samples is not harmfull to the vj community - nor is it a new thing - many of the clips on the audiovisulizers cds are sampled from the tv or films - after all it is impossable for anyone to check all the clips are legal as nobody has exstensive enough knolledge of the entire broadcast / film industry to be able to spot all the uncleared samples.

i thank mondo for telling us that there are illegal samples on his disks - this makes us have this discussion and to point out to newbees that it is there responcability to make sure that they have the right to play the footage they use (saying - i thought that it was ok cause i brought them from mondo is not a good defence)

unless something comes with a specific written licence allowing you to use the matireal then i would allways assume that you have no (legal) right to use it

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by sleepytom

the sale of illegal samples is not harmfull to the vj community - nor is it a new thing - many of the clips on the audiovisulizers cds are sampled from the tv or films - after all it is impossable for anyone to check all the clips are legal as nobody has exstensive enough knolledge of the entire broadcast / film industry to be able to spot all the uncleared samples.


Just because audiovisualizers thinks it is ok to publish does not mean we at VJC have to too.

I presume that AV make you sign a legal document satting that all the stuff is orginal, etc just at the elecronica-optica ppl do for there loop service.

I do not beleive we should be promoting this Tom.

ummh not harmful soon mate it will be ripping other VJ's sets/clips off and selling them. How would you feel if your best clips where on mondo's CD that he is selling.

I will continue to fight the copyright corner otherwise there will be no orginal acts left.

Anyway Mondo's sampled footage will be all lefty modern day snuff movie footage (ie Sept11 murder stuff) so you will not want it anyway. :p;)

[unjulation]

I will continue to fight the copyright corner otherwise there will be no orginal acts left.

but if people dont use outher peoples stuf how are they going to get the exposure that they deserve

this ties into something i have been thinking about for quite a bit and sureley there shouldn't be this clash between the two sides, yes i know that i keep winding this argument up ahhh....the irony ;) but sureley for an indervidual to make his name createing visuals people need to see them and what better way the get people to play them, that'll be us sample vj's as long as the vj dont say "oh yhe i made it my self" but i dont think meny if any would do that
so people will get the exposure needed to push them selves into the spaces that they want
it could be a benifical arangment for evreyone

[Rovastar]

Unj,

I know many VJ's (and can point you to their websites) where they imply that all there stuff is original and their own work.

I am though confused with the 'getting a name for yourself' thing

Some of the things I create and other vis devolpers I know have their stuff played loads and loads around the world (legal or illegally) I imagine with the amount of downloads thousands of viewings a week in clubs.

So with your logic me and others should be the most successful acts in the world. Alas this is not the case.

So I really do not see how the clip selling thing can be all that successful and really benifit the author.

Discuss. :)

[Amukidi]

"but sureley for an indervidual to make his name createing visuals people need to see them and what better way the get people to play them",

Errrm - I'm getting confused now - As one who creates my own stuff, surely the best way to get this stuff seen is at my own gigs. What have I got to gain by distributing the material to all and sundry, other than diluting its impact?? Educate me someone!

[sleepytom]

most vjs don't play international gigs - it could be seen as a good thing to allow vjs in other countries to use some of your matireal - they can send you some to and everyone gets some new clips - you don't worrie about them being seen too much as your the only person with them in your countrie

this kind of system only works on trust though really as you have to trust that everyone who gets your clips will respect your guidelines on where they can be played - and you have to trust that the clips others have sent you are really theres to give (and its very very hard to find out if a 3 second loop is actually from some obscure film you haven't seen)

making people sign a legal document would give you some protection if you were to be prosicuted for using a clip someone else had given you as you recived it in good faith - however this argument would only stand when backed up by paperwork.

[Amukidi]

That's a lot of trust and a fair few ifs Tom - besides which, I'm not sure it wouldn't result, in the end, in everyone producing homogenised VJ sets, in the same way that would happen if all musicians made their music using one of those "PXD" type clip mixers - full of killer sound-clips, but ultimately very unsatisfying. I guess we're all gonna have to agree to differ on this one - call me old fashioned, but I'd no sooner give away or sell my clips, than give away/sell my sketches/underpaintings to folks that cant draw. I would, of course, be happy to teach them how to make their own though. Could be time to poll who uses found footage and who uses 100% own material (and all in between)? I, for one would be interested in outcome, but am wary of starting it off as I've pissed a few folks off recently bleating on about this!

[unjulation]

ok i'll try and explain but forgive me if i get a little confused because this is an unfinished concept and i havent worked it through yet so it might be complet b/s

right useing the analogy of dj/vj, and yes i know that a lot of people dont like this one but it can be a usefull one within this perticular instance

it goes back to why i created this thred in the first place how can people make a name and mony from the skills that they have-wether that be an indervidual who creates clips or some one who plays them.

and it also touches upon the understanding that a lot of vj's that i have talked to see themselves as moveing into outher areas later in life like film production company management etc, now personaly i dont want to do that kind of thing, what terns me on is the playing live aspect of the work that i do, call me egotisticl but thats what floats my boat and the place i want to be in in 10-20 is still playing live just better paid

ok now haveing got those basic foundations sorted i'll move on

firstly rova:- if there was some kind of system that alowed people to buy clips wether spercific stuf or stock footage simerler in some way like buying a record then the stuf that is good (abstract quality argument not withstanding) then it would be logical to asume, tho i could be wrong, that those inderviduals would have more people buying there stuf thus the inderviduals name would be asociated to good stuf which can only be good for that indervidual and in tern make more mony
i agrea with you that this is not the case at the moment but i'm trying to make some conection with the way that market forces work and what is happaning within the vj world as it exists at this moment in time

jaffa:- what you are saying is true but i would also bring up the point of ware people want to be in 10-20 years time and not everyone wants to keep playing and doing 8 hour gigs, etc, so i dont think that is nesaserily the case
as for the dilution of impact of indervidual work on the scean to use the dj analogy do you think that dj's/musicians think that way? probably not, now can we use that analogy within the vj market? i'm not sure yet i havent worked it through yet

so ware do we end up? well to be honest i dont know yet but i'm trying to make conections between the diferant aspects of the vj culture, its what i do mix things up and see ware they can take us

more latter undoubtably :)

[unjulation]

jaffa:- as for homoginised sets do all dj's sound the same? some do some dont and they are useing the same records it's about how and what you do live that makes the diferance and also i would sergest that there are enough people makeing diferant with diferant style clips that would allow for diferant stuf to be hapaning all over the world

[oxygen]

what i do with eirenah from croatia is invite each other for gigs and then record it.
so we put it on dv and use it again.
so it works on both sides:
1.you have a nice gig, with lots of fun 2gether!
2.you have new material to reuse!
+plus you have some new places to put on your cv!
so, when you use material fora demo or something you put both names...
the only thing you need is to you like each others visuals ...

i think looking for alternative options then buying and selling 'with money' is much nicer and interesting.
"especially when your fishing in the same sea"

but putting a databank for thematic visuals (like birds) is a good idea but it does allready exist. (and its very expensive.)
so when a client wants to have something thematic for a commercial purpose, you should charge him.

[Amukidi]

Unj - I did say "Musicians" NOT Djs - Djs on the whole, play other people's records and as such, are not involved in creating original material. Sure, their mix "style" may have its original little quirks, but on the whole that argument does not apply. And in answer to your other point, no - I don't think that there are that many different styles being created in the VJ arena - I see cliches all the time and to be honest, one set of mashed up "ironic" clips looks pretty much like another. I fear that the VJ world is suffering from the same stigma that afflicts Grafifiti artists - there are a few really clever ones out there, and when they are good, they really stand out (Banksy to name but one) but the other 99% are derivative shit, despite the fact that they'll all say "yeah man, I've got my own style......" So come on folks, lets get a bit more self-critical and be a bit more demanding of our own creative potential. There IS a place for sampling, of course there is, but not to the detriment of everything else - the best sampling musicians rarely construct their tunes ENTIRELY from sampled sources, the good ones use it sparingly and to great effect.

[holly]

the forum guidelines exist largely to encorage respect for vj software developers... ?SleepyTom

No kidding.

I don't see what's so sacred about your code. What, you spent a long time creating it and now you feel you deserve a safe market in which to distribute you product....? Wow, how does that differ from content creation? I'm sorry, you're simply being hipocritical . Isn't it just as valuable to programmers to have their apps traded freely through the group? I am not in your market, therefore I should have free access to your software. It will do you good to have your programs played at my parties where it will be seen by other professionals in my area. Surly this will lead to exposure and a strengthening of the scene all around.... No, Tom. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander, and encouraging illegal activity is bad form for our community.

You are also making no distinction between content intended for VJing and content intended for mass-distribution. By your standards, lowly VJ apps should be shareware while big boys like Photoshop and FinalCut should be freely pirated and traded, perhaps even with an added surcharge of burning the disc and distribution. That's called piracy, and worse it is canibalizing the VJ market before it can even start. Your attitude is contributing to the lack VJing as a self-sustaining market.

It's CONTENT that gets me work, not software. You are closing the door on professional content creators having a viable market within our community. While I hate to bring up the tired old analogy once again, DJs only buy two turntables, but it's the lables and an ongoing supply of quality content that keep the scene fresh and keep the record stores and clubs open. I will continue to withhold my content, and continue to express exactly what IS and ISN'T legal about sharing, trading, and pirating. You may think that software is the future of our artform, but Content always is and always has been King. Your code will be slow and obsolete in 3 years. My content will retain its value so long as I withhold it from THIS group.

[unjulation]

jaffa:- i would say there are as meny generic musisians as there are good ones if not more, so i dont see what you are saying is relevant and as for generic mixing yep it goes on but it dosn't meen there are not good mixers out there and i'm not talking about puting one set of ironic clips after anouther its about how well you mix, but i understand that you are looking through the eyes of an artist and as such have a perticular set of peramiters in which to relate to the world and by no means is this ment as an insult and i hope its not taken as such

holy:-i would sergest that you to are looking at your work as an artist would look at there work with an indervidual presciousness re-there own work not leting it go etc again no insult intended

so thats great, there is nothing wrong with that veiw point but it is only the veiw point of an artist and for me personaly and my own perception of this industriy its not about art per-say tho there is art within it

i keep thinking of the times i take the piss out of myself with the coment i keep comeing out with.....

"i'm only makeing prety pictures and people give me mony to do it"

a lot of the time i think i'm takeing the piss but there you go thats just me and by keeping the above coment in my mind helps me keep my feet on the ground

[holly]

Unj, point taken, but it still doesn't explain why app developers get special protection and seem to have something against content creators. Artist or not, I make money off my content. It's not precious, it's my living. Why shouldn't I seek to open new markets for my trade? And if I'm treating my clips like a mother hen, what do you call the behavior of the VJF police who censor and delete entire threads for mentioning Poobah's hotline server?

There are options to distribute content right now. Some free or practically free, and some ridiculously overpriced for this market. I guess I'll just have to put some generic stuff up on Radly Marx's server and see if it goes anywhere. If it doesn't work out though I'm switching to ridiculously priced.

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by holly
[B]
My content will retain its value so long as I withhold it from THIS group.

holly - i was not talking about the sale of another artists work - but the distrobution of clips sampled from the tv or a mainstream film - this is not harmfull to the scene as these clips are freely available from blockbuster anyway.

it is redistrobution and a lack of propper licencing that will kill the scene - people who are foolish enough to belive that there work will be respected by there fellow artists will be fucked over if they have not made sure that the use of there work is restricted by licencing.

eg how many people have clips from the audiovisualizers cdr shareing thing ? - how many of those people did not get the clips from dave? - its a joke the AV clip share - people give content to it that they have sampled off the telly and other people lend the cds they've been sent to all there mates / upload it to ftp sites - there is no garrente that anything from the AV cdr bank is legal to use.

for content producers to be able to sell footage (for profit or simply to increase there own profile) they need to provide licences to people that specify what can be done with the footage (eg if you buy stock footage it is not copywrite free - you have a licence to use it but you couldn't resell it to another stock footage company)

at then end of the day you get what you pay for - if you pay nothing (the audiovisulizers route) you'll get no garentee of legal footage and no specific right to use it.

i'd like to see peoeple like holly being able to sell footage licenced for vjing use (but not for broadcast use or use outside of a live performance) but to make this level of sale work we would need to be able to sell disks for at least $50 each - would people be prepaired to pay that much for a disk of legal original content?

and most importantly would people respect the artists and not go and upload it strate to audiovisulizers ?

[sleepytom]

i feel that if people have payed a reasonable fee for the use of the clip they will not want to give it away as they had to buy it - the problem we have at the moment is people do not value our work enough - our prices need to refect the time and effort put into the production and frankly charging just $2 for a clip is an insult to the person who made it - they will only get a profit if the clip is brought by 100's of people - and that will put people off buying if they know that 100's of others are using this clip

if we charged a bit more you could cover the production costs without having to sell the clips to 100's and then everyone gets better value

[Amukidi]

Tom, there's no way anyone around here is going to pay for anything that they can get for free. There seems to be an endemic culture of "I want it, I want it NOW and I want it for free". I know that this will not affect the already established artists on this globe, but as we all know, these folks are in the minority. I am fascinated to see how far this will all go and where the establishment will try and draw a line. And where do we draw the line? How many of us would be pissed off if someone helped themselves to our car just cos it was sitting in the street? How many times have we heard statements like "I refuse, on principal, to pay for software" ? I, for one, hear it all the time and ask myself "why is this different?" This person wouldn't try to slip out of a supermarket without paying, so why is he happy to steal a software app? I've been guilty of it myself, but usually end up paying for it if it becomes part of my daily working toolkit. Its like there are two clearly definable sets of rules and I for one, am baffled by it! My theory is that as it is SO easy to get away with it, folks are happy to do it. So would this apply to shops? Looting springs to mind!

Just airing my thoughts!

[robotfunk]

yes we are hypocrites.
all of us

I would never rob a store but would seriously wonder what I would do if I'd find myself in a situation such as the donut store in Boogie Nights.

[zap25]

The "nice" part of the software/digital media world is that it doesn't feel like stealing.
I never really felt any guilt when I copied tapes for my MSX. Just like I never felt any guilt going through boxes of discs copying software at some computer club meeting.

It all changed for me when I first started using FidoNet (internet wasn't available for the average joe back then). I knew the guys who wrote the software that provided me with FidoNet access. I knew them personally, I knew how much they depended on the shareware donations.

Where possible I try to avoid software "theft". Instead of Photoshop I use Gimp. It's just hard, especially when you're just starting, I'm still investing significantly more than I'm earning. And if I had to get every software tool legally, I wouldn't have simply because I don't have the money... so either way, not buying or stealing, the big guys wouldn't have made any money through me.

I'm also sensitive to what is "reasonable". If a couple of people work their arses off to make a tool specifically designed for a small group. Let's say they spent 2 manyears, some 4000 hours in total. Assuming $30 an hour is reasonable pay for work at that level you're talking about a $120,000 investment in hours alone.
If they sell 1,200 copies then $100 is a reasonable price imo.

A big company with millionaire software engineers and billionaire shareholders... well let's just say that I don't spend much hours lying awake at night being consumed with guilt about "stealing" software from them.

And when I'm ready to start selling some of my footage online I'm going to use a similar pricing scheme. If I spend 40 hours making a total of 4 hrs of footage for a DVD at $30 it means I should make $1200 on the sales of that DVD.
Unless someone trades material that would have cost me 40 hrs making it.

[Amukidi]

"And when I'm ready to start selling some of my footage online I'm going to use a similar pricing scheme. If I spend 40 hours making a total of 4 hrs of footage for a DVD at $30 it means I should make $1200 on the sales of that DVD.
Unless someone trades material that would have cost me 40 hrs making it".

The point I'm making is that your average punter won't give a toss how big or small you are - they'll just nick your stuff. I can almost promise you that if you put your stuff on the web in whatever format you choose, you won't make a cent from it, bearing in mind all your pre-production costs etc. Sure, one or two people might buy it, but you can be sure that most will find a way to rip it IF (and its a big IF) its what they're after. It doesn't feel like stealing, cos there's no-one watching - simple as that. If I asked you to go into a software store and nick a copy of photoshop, you wouldn't entertain the idea as the chances are, you'd be caught on CCTV. So "we're" not just hypocrites - we're cowards!

[mondo]

ive gotta clear some areas here - apologies for rambling thread

rovastar - when i said "open access" clips - i mean for use discretionally by vjs to allow further artistic development. generally the youngsters we meet/teach/etc - everyone is made aware of when not to use stolen clips.

personally i like using sampled clips because...
there is no way i can faithfully reveal my emotion/vjwork without use of some sampled clips of bush/blair/war/etc etc taken off the news mixed into my set..

in my experience club punters/people respond to these clips within the correct music context - but that just shows the type of EVENT i seem to be performing within and i enjoy it too

for me sampling is for playing collage in a live performance till you learn some new tricks enough to make more pertinant permanent work

interestingly the same way that i have been buying software recently i have also been creating my own a/v stuff without use of sampled clips.
this work is more of a complete a/v piece and it is this stuff i would expect to be shown outside of the club scene - this is the area some people are working towards in dvd land (dfuse, yeast, addictive tv etc) ie. finished filmic pieces (q? now is this really vjing? not in my book)

vjs imho rarely make money performing and probably never make money selling their clips.
vjs may make a living if they can get to show/tour their work by convincing promoters/punters/gallery owners that they have something to say visually

unj is right - its what we want in the future that counts and what we do now is just a vj path that helps to keep our profile.

holly - withholding your work is fine and honourable. i dont mind if people see/use/steal my stuff.

..and to this end the sampling issue really doesnt bother me - you can like it, use it or lump it - (show me a successful sued case - then ill review my stance) - ultimately its one's work, be it vj performance or finished piece that counts.

and as for money.....become a stockbroker if you want some of that.

[Amukidi]

Bloody hell Mondo - you took your time getting here! Thought you'd gone on holiday ;-) Fair comments too - mibbes we ought to get together sometime as I'm also concentrating on AV stuff at the mo - be interested to see what you're up to. Maybe an AV night is in order?

[mondo]

jaffa
- yes ive been away and im catching up....yes lets meet

rovastar
"would you 'rip' another vj's set" - hahahaha that would be funny - how shall i do that then.....take my dv cam to a club and sit quietly at the back?? it wont mean i am a better vj will it!

they do this in thailand you know - and it doesn't make money.
why are we so concerned about bloody money!!!!

lets talk process before we talk rip-offs

show what you wanna show and be damned. rip what you wanna rip and be damned/sued/jailed/busted - (who are we kidding!!!)

jaffa's stuff is special , he is a good artist - if i ripped his stuff everyone would know - i would look a right dork - how he deals with his work is down to him.
i rip certain stuff that is easily accessible by all - i just distribute it to make life searching for it a bit easier. i dont make any money from it.
i dont mind if no one agrees with that - some vjs/artists benefit from it, some dont

ive been working in design for years and its just the same as ripping out a magazine image and sticking it on a poster and publicising an event - that photographer doesnt care (more like his greedhead agent) unless it was SHOWN in a HIGHLY PUBLIC paying event ie. an exhibition

i dont mind if people take my stuff because i dont hold that value attached to it that some others may do.

if my stuff proves valuable - - what does that suddenly make me? ask yourself that.

[unjulation]

first of i'd agree with a lot of mondo's points hear especily about riping a perticular vj's set, so i wont do a double print (i have just realised that i have done that on anouther thred and it's borring)

anyway just to pick up on a point that jaffa made earlier about being hypocritical i personaly find that in this life and sociaty we are often in a situation ware depending on the choises we make we often have to bridge gaps between paradoxical spaces that can then make us look hypocritical this to me is part and parcel of life its self, i personaly have no problem with riping software of a company like adobe but i wont rip vj softs, hypocritical but i dont see that as a problem i still sleep well at night ;)

[Amukidi]

We certainly all do have our lines drawn Unj - I also would have little trouble with Adobe as I believe they are probably one of the worst at overpricing - shame I don't really like their soft!! I'm about to shell out over ?400 on my new editing soft and ?200 on a DVD writer - call me mad, but I figured that I'm not going to steal the DVD writer, so why steal the soft! Probable outcome will be the production of an AV DVD - which will prolly end up being nicked! ;-) Oh well, I'll have fun trying!

[mondo]

can i have a copy please

i wont pay you and i wont play you outside my home

honest:rolleyes:

[Lara]

I'm excited to see AV stuff from you two- you'll HAVE to do and AV night that would be great :)

I think this wholw pricing/dist thing is a difficult one- nuff respect for Unj, who is thinking of people like me who want to go into animation and video production (when I grow up) but still could be making money to live off our skills now. But then Jaffa's and Tom's points about ripping footage are true- you would have no guarantees that your footage wasn't going to be on a hotline server two hours later.

It seems to me that the only answer would be to create generic content like Holly says and then hope for the best- or conduct private sales through people you know on vjc. It all depends what you put into your footage, and what you expect to get back. These threads are important because some people I've talked to trying to get into vjing seem to have no realisation of their part in the scene, and how much damage they can do if they act badly.

Now I am as big a hypocrite as anyone with pirated softs from big companies . . . but I have bought the software I want to specialise in and when I enter the broadcast industry and make enough money to buy all my software then I will. I think though the vj industry suffers sometimes because of the whole DIY thing- in broadcast there would maybe not be these problems because illegality isn't tolerated.

Still, this is the industry we're in that we love and we are going to have to claim back the DIY as a wholly positive quality. Maybe this whole debate could be one for AVIT? Perhaps there we could undertake a survey to see exactly what the scene looks like in terms of who is doing what where and with what material? Dunno- with this information we'd be better able to answer questions about loop pricing.

[Amukidi]

Well, Lara, you'll get a chance if you come to Eastnor - I've just been confirmed for an AV slot in the Media-Mix tent Friday night!! Feeling a bit chuffed about that I can tell you! Now all I've got to do is sort out what to play - a real dilemna for me, especially as I'm constantly working on new pieces.

[mondo]

jaffa
how about a back2back then?

maybe eastnor if you fancy - ?
or whatever...with an mx50 between us of course!!

:)

[Lara]

Well I must say I look forward to it :) . . .

[Amukidi]

Mondo - I have spoken to 2 Soxan members about the possibility of an AV set, they both seemed up for it, so maybe now's the time for you to mention it too and we can perhaps put a slightly different tilt to a soxan night. Do you know of any other VJs working on similar stuff? My only concern is trying to compete with another room where banging stuff is being played - this happened a coupla times in Naxos - once during Roger's set while he was playing some Erik Satie!!! Not a good mix!

[mondo]

mmm

i know what you mean.

soxan does have that tendency (mind you mixmaster morris got away with it) - or we do an earlier set

ill ask

speak soon